Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
enplaned
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:43 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


One airline is going to go into bankruptcy… And they are all going to follow. Just like in the mid 2000s. The only question at this point, who’s going to go in first and start a chain reaction


How could I have possibly missed the announcement that WN went bankrupt in the mid 2000s?


They didnt. Every legacy did. When legacies were called majors, and Southwest was called a scrappy LCC. And guess what WN is now? Number 4.

Get ready for an airline industry financial apocalypse...it is coming!


Continental didn't - it had already gone Ch 11 twice previously but it did not go Ch 11 in the 2000s.

And American's bankruptcy, while indubitably conceived in the post-9/11 period, only came to fruition in 2011.

But US Airways went bust twice (2002, 2004), UA once (2002), DL once, and NW once (DL and NW filing on the same day in 2005).
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:45 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


One airline is going to go into bankruptcy… And they are all going to follow. Just like in the mid 2000s. The only question at this point, who’s going to go in first and start a chain reaction


How could I have possibly missed the announcement that WN went bankrupt in the mid 2000s?


They didnt. Every legacy did. When legacies were called majors, and Southwest was called a scrappy LCC. And guess what WN is now? Number 4.

Get ready for an airline industry financial apocalypse...it is coming!


They said today they have 3 years of cash on hand. So I am guessing they will be fine. Being so heavy domestic flying should help them.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3345
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:51 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

COS is quickly becoming the south suburb of Denver. Plenty of demand that isn't reflected in the boarding totals, as most people just drive to DEN.


Agreed, but two things to reply to that:

1) Perhaps they are changing their tune, but why would WN give up economies of scale and potentially cannibalize flights in such a large station in favor of COS, especially when DEN is a de facto hub? I realize that there will definitely be a number of WN FFs who will migrate to COS no matter what, but does WN specifically want to target those types of people? Wouldn't WN want to use these flights to mostly grab *new* passengers?

2) I don't live in that region, but how many nonstops and what sort of fares will it take to stop leakage? Would someone, for example, fly COS-MDW-LGA rather than drive to DEN and fly straight to LGA, assuming the same fares? What if COS is 10% higher? 20%?


I think WN is making a play for the Front Range as a whole. I don't think it's any different than UA having it's DEN hub and serving most of the other hubs from COS. WN is going to be using much larger planes for sure, but I don't anticipate them starting more than 5-7x a day to various cities. It's the "option" for the COS local to take if they would rather connect than drive to Denver.

Personally - I'll gladly take a slightly higher fare and/or a connection to fly than drive. Colorado traffic has become a real mess... both I-25 and I-70. I think WN is targeting precisely that consumer who is willing to avoid the traffic and fly local.


it all depends on that price and how much of a difference, I've always seen COS much higher than DEN. If you have a family of 4, how much will they bite to make a connection or drive an hour and save maybe $100 per ticket.

(Example only) Feb 5-7:

DEN-BWI UA $166
COS-BWI UA $295

DEN-BWI WN $147.96

DEN-BWI DL $3371
COS-BWI DL $365

DEN-BWI AA $146
COS-BWI AA $437

DEN-BWI F9 $198 (discount den)

I love flying into COS, but it is always higher than DEN.
Last edited by CALMSP on Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ehaase
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:54 pm

A friend told me he heard Southwest's Jackson MS flights would be to Memphis and New Orleans. I can't find confirmation of that anywhere else. If true, I guess that would be a low risk way of returning to JAN if true. Northwest had flights from Jackson to Memphis years ago. I don't know if any airline ever flew from JAN to MSY, but I know that hasn't been the case in the last 25 years.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:23 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Southwest has announced plans to add flights to Colorado Springs (COS)


This is a bit surprising, given that Colorado Springs really isn't a major tourist destination. You still won't find any recreational marijuana for sale, and DEN is closer to the ski resorts. I suppose COS is a sizable VFR market though, and close enough to Denver that this addition fits WN's new "breadth over depth" strategy. After all, even at DEN there is only so much the airline can do. Some Colorado Springs residents and visitors just aren't going to be willing to drive to/from DEN. Still, this isn't a market that has a particularly strong history of supporting service to markets like Chicago and Phoenix - places WN is likely to try from COS. Then again, traffic here is far less seasonal than Colorado's mountain resorts like EGE, HDN and MTJ. This one will be interesting to watch!

Ishrion wrote:
Savannah (SAV)


This one I've been expecting for a while now. This is not just a sizable local market but also a major tourist draw. I think this could do very well.

Ishrion wrote:
and return to Jackson, Mississippi (JAN)


What?!? If it didn't work then.. why would it work now? I would have expected a return to EYW and perhaps even BKG (the other stations WN cut back in 2014 along with JAN) before seeing another foray into Mississippi. Never mind other seemingly stronger opportunities in the South for WN like GSO, HSV and/or TYS. Or the other Jackson...in Wyoming. I suppose there has been a renewed focus on hubs (or whatever WN wants to call them) at ATL and HOU, though.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
User avatar
drerx7
Posts: 4411
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:34 pm

ehaase wrote:
A friend told me he heard Southwest's Jackson MS flights would be to Memphis and New Orleans. I can't find confirmation of that anywhere else. If true, I guess that would be a low risk way of returning to JAN if true. Northwest had flights from Jackson to Memphis years ago. I don't know if any airline ever flew from JAN to MSY, but I know that hasn't been the case in the last 25 years.


I seriously doubt that. MEM is not a large station for WN. Realistically it'll probably be served from HOU, DAL, BNA, ATL, and MDW ...maybe MSY. Before I know it was served from HOU.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
DenverTed
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:57 pm

Next stop for WN 'save the drive on I-25', Fort Collins, CO? Get some passengers from Laramie, Cheyenne, and northern CO.
 
ehaase
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:33 pm

drerx7 wrote:
ehaase wrote:
A friend told me he heard Southwest's Jackson MS flights would be to Memphis and New Orleans. I can't find confirmation of that anywhere else. If true, I guess that would be a low risk way of returning to JAN if true. Northwest had flights from Jackson to Memphis years ago. I don't know if any airline ever flew from JAN to MSY, but I know that hasn't been the case in the last 25 years.


I seriously doubt that. MEM is not a large station for WN. Realistically it'll probably be served from HOU, DAL, BNA, ATL, and MDW ...maybe MSY. Before I know it was served from HOU.


I would only say that Little Rock, AR is roughly the size of Jackson, slightly more affluent, and I only see that Southwest has flights from Little Rock to DAL and St. Louis. Southwest did have a flight from Jackson to MDW in the old days. The counties surrounding Jackson are affluent, but Jackson itself is a very impoverished city. I can't see Southwest coming back as large as it did the first time.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:04 pm

ehaase wrote:
I would only say that Little Rock, AR is roughly the size of Jackson, slightly more affluent, and I only see that Southwest has flights from Little Rock to DAL and St. Louis. Southwest did have a flight from Jackson to MDW in the old days. The counties surrounding Jackson are affluent, but Jackson itself is a very impoverished city. I can't see Southwest coming back as large as it did the first time.


WN is starting LIT-ATL/DEN nonstop service on November 1st, resuming LIT-LAS nonstop service on November 7th, resuming LIT-PHX nonstop service on November 22nd, and resuming LIT-HOU nonstop service in January 2021.

Little Rock is also located in a bigger CSA than Jackson, MS is with the population of the Little Rock CSA is 908,941 whereas the population of the Jackson/Vicksburg CSA is 674,340.

LIT also carried double the amount of domestic passengers that JAN did in 2019, with LIT carrying 2.2 million domestic passengers in 2019 whereas JAN only carried 1.1 million domestic passengers in 2019.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:06 pm

drerx7 wrote:
ehaase wrote:
A friend told me he heard Southwest's Jackson MS flights would be to Memphis and New Orleans. I can't find confirmation of that anywhere else. If true, I guess that would be a low risk way of returning to JAN if true. Northwest had flights from Jackson to Memphis years ago. I don't know if any airline ever flew from JAN to MSY, but I know that hasn't been the case in the last 25 years.


I seriously doubt that. MEM is not a large station for WN. Realistically it'll probably be served from HOU, DAL, BNA, ATL, and MDW ...maybe MSY. Before I know it was served from HOU.


I would say no way MEM. MSY in theory could work but I don't think its a big enough station for them unless its a Sunday only flight or something once passengers come back. It will be twice daily to a couple bigger stations most likely, with the long shot of a single to a further away west station like PHX/LAS.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5730
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:19 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
dbo861 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:

I don't see BNA or STL being candidates, they need both large O&D plus connections to make these new smaller markets work. I do agree both SAV/JAN are likely to have BWI/DAL, if there is a third city option that is really a toss up with TPA/ATL.


DSM-STL has worked for several years and there’s minimal O&D there.


Not to say O&D doesn't matter but for JAN it is just going to be where they decide to spoke it into the system (like LIT/DSM/ICT/TUL, etc). STL/MDW/BNA/ATL/BWI and more options for it. Could be any.

SAV I think like someone else said will be like CHS. With some weekend only options on top of the daily to "hubs"


Re: STL-JAN. TWA used to serve this WAY back in the 90's and I took the flight several times to see friends in JAN. Always good loads. But at the time, no WN and no JAN-Chicago flights. A decent chunk of TWA's JAN boardings were headed to CHI. When WN came in with MDW, TWA's loads took a dump and it was one of the first STL markets to get the ERJ 145 on Chautauqua. Dynamics have changed for sure but 1 a day JAN-STL for connections doesn't seem off the table.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
User avatar
diverdave
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:58 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
gdavis003 wrote:
Somewhat surprised HSV wasn’t in this add too. They’ve been pulling for WN to come for years, and they would work quite well I believe. Could definitely see HSV-BWI/HOU/DAL and maybe even MCO, but they have some competition with Frontier and Silver there. HSV-BWI/HOU would be loaded with Redstone Arsenal and NASA employees.


I'm not sure they need to be in HSV to capture Huntsville traffic. I feel like I sit next to folks from or headed to Huntsville on half of my WN flights to and from BNA, and I bet BHM isn't much different.


HSV does leak traffic to BNA and also to BHM. Some of that leakage is captured by WN at those two airports, but certainly not all of it. There is still plenty of traffic that does fly out of HSV. 2019 was was a great year at HSV with over 700K enplaned passengers.

IME the leakage is mostly leisure traffic. I'm sure there are business travelers who travel to BNA or BHM, but personally I don't know of any.

I-65 has become more congested as of late (though not as bad as I-25 certainly), and the drive is now less attractive than in the past.

Ironically until COVID hit, we saw more former Airtran 717 birds here wearing Delta colors than we did back in the days when we bribed Airtran for service. In the COVID era, Delta mainline service has been pulled in favor of CR9s.

In any event, I don't expect to see WN in HSV.
 
dbo861
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:00 am

I’m surprised we got this far in the thread and there’s no mention of XNA.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:22 am

dbo861 wrote:
I’m surprised we got this far in the thread and there’s no mention of XNA.


Too much of a business market - in an environment where there is virtually no business travel to be had.
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5746
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:35 am

drdisque wrote:
I agree that they won't fly COS-DEN. Way too short for WN. They will fly something east from COS - either MDW or STL or BNA or maybe even BWI.


Why wouldn't WN fly the 73 miles to Denver, only to offer the connections from their largest "hub" city? Did WN not just get many more gates at DEN? WN indicated it would have over 700 flights a day when their plans are realized, there is plenty of room for a couple tags a day to COS, it's a short hop, but as others have pointed out MCO-SRQ is short, so are their very profitable Inter Island flights.

I think every carriers MO & ways of operating has rapidly changed & leisure is king again. It is the same reason UA retains COS-DEN flights I bet, not much local traffic & much more connecting traffic. Just my 2 armchair CEO cents worth.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:10 am

DEN-COS will never happen.
As for JAN and SAV both state senators are actively involved in the PSP act stalled in DC.
WN went to JAN before for political influence.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
dolphinflyer
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:32 am

All of these new stations cannot automatically get nonstop service to DAL. There is simply not enough gate capacity nor flight capacity to accommodate that. WN needs to carefully and judiciously manage its limited DAL resources for the foreseeable future.
 
User avatar
AVLAirlineFreq
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:31 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:02 am

freakyrat wrote:
With all these new destinations proposed by WN I'll throw another successful former FL city in the mix: BMI.


Wait...what?
 
User avatar
AVLAirlineFreq
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:31 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:10 am

ehaase wrote:
A friend told me he heard Southwest's Jackson MS flights would be to Memphis and New Orleans. I can't find confirmation of that anywhere else. If true, I guess that would be a low risk way of returning to JAN if true. Northwest had flights from Jackson to Memphis years ago. I don't know if any airline ever flew from JAN to MSY, but I know that hasn't been the case in the last 25 years.


US Air Express did fly the route back in the mid-to-late 1990s.

It's a three-hour drive. There would be no O&D.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3793
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:20 am

dolphinflyer wrote:
All of these new stations cannot automatically get nonstop service to DAL. There is simply not enough gate capacity nor flight capacity to accommodate that. WN needs to carefully and judiciously manage its limited DAL resources for the foreseeable future.


I agree with your point, even though WN does have some room at DAL to accommodate nonstop service to a few additional destinations with WN having already discontinued DAL-OKC/SFO nonstop service, with WN having already reduced frequencies on DAL-HOU/LIT/LGA/TUL nonstop service through the end of its current schedule, and with WN expected to reduce frequencies on other nonstop routes out of DAL.

I would probably expect frequency reductions on DAL-MDW/FLL/LAX nonstop service if WN adds DAL-ORD/MIA/LGB nonstop service.

WN can also reduce frequencies on other nonstop routes out of DAL if needed to accommodate nonstop service to additional destinations from DAL.

WN adding DAL-COS nonstop service probably does make sense as any connecting options to COS from DAL on WN (at least through cities other than DEN) would involve significant backtracking and with WN unlikely to add DEN-COS nonstop service.

On the other hand, WN can easily connect passengers to its WA/OR/CA destinations that are not served nonstop from DAL through DEN, LAS, or PHX, and WN can easily connect passengers to most of its East Coast destinations that are not served nonstop from DAL through MDW, BWI, STL, BNA, ATL, or HOU.

WN has more than enough room at DAL to operate Saturday-only nonstop service to destinations that do not have daily nonstop service from DAL with WN only operating around 150 departures from DAL on Saturdays versus the 195 daily departures that it was operating from DAL on weekdays prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

The return of Saturday-only DAL-BOI nonstop service on WN is certainly a possibility with
(a) WN being able to make Saturday-only DAL-BOI nonstop service work in Summer 2018 and Summer 2019,
(b) BOI being near some ski resorts in Idaho, and
(c) WN recently adding seasonal weekend-only nonstop service to HDN and MTJ from DAL.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:41 am

I think the price point for a DEN-COS one way ticket would be about $30 to $35 ($60 to $70 rt) where people would choose that over driving. Can they break even at those fares?
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3345
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:22 am

DenverTed wrote:
I think the price point for a DEN-COS one way ticket would be about $30 to $35 ($60 to $70 rt) where people would choose that over driving. Can they break even at those fares?


I'm sorry, but NO ONE (unless they are simply wanting to rack up flight segments) would ever choose to fly over driving from DEN-COS.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:28 am

CALMSP wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
I think the price point for a DEN-COS one way ticket would be about $30 to $35 ($60 to $70 rt) where people would choose that over driving. Can they break even at those fares?


I'm sorry, but NO ONE (unless they are simply wanting to rack up flight segments) would ever choose to fly over driving from DEN-COS.

I should have specified to connect onward to another destination. How much is the breakover price to fly or drive to DEN to journey onward? Which I suppose depends on a party of 1, 2, or 4. Definitely not paying $400 for a family of four over just getting in the car.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3345
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:35 am

DenverTed wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
I think the price point for a DEN-COS one way ticket would be about $30 to $35 ($60 to $70 rt) where people would choose that over driving. Can they break even at those fares?


I'm sorry, but NO ONE (unless they are simply wanting to rack up flight segments) would ever choose to fly over driving from DEN-COS.

I should have specified to connect onward to another destination. How much is the breakover price to fly or drive to DEN to journey onward? Which I suppose depends on a party of 1, 2, or 4. Definitely not paying $400 for a family of four over just getting in the car.


ok - well, that is why I can see DEN-COS on WN happening, jumping to their network for DEN, just like what the UA flyers do in COS connecting to UA's network.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4844
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 am

COS makes total sense now with their massive frequent flyer base they have built throughout the front range.

Southwest knows the overall demand is gonna take too long to come back so they have too many planes, they are spreading out to more airports. Smart move until demand comes back!
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:01 am

CALMSP wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

I'm sorry, but NO ONE (unless they are simply wanting to rack up flight segments) would ever choose to fly over driving from DEN-COS.

I should have specified to connect onward to another destination. How much is the breakover price to fly or drive to DEN to journey onward? Which I suppose depends on a party of 1, 2, or 4. Definitely not paying $400 for a family of four over just getting in the car.


ok - well, that is why I can see DEN-COS on WN happening, jumping to their network for DEN, just like what the UA flyers do in COS connecting to UA's network.


I would never say never on COS-DEN, because it’s DEN but if they run to some combination of PHX/LAS/MDW/STL/BNA/ATL/Texas they should be able to cover anything DEN offers. Just seems silly to run a route with literally no O&D when there are plenty of other big stations they have to fly by anyway on the way to anywhere else (unlike UA, which has to go all the way to the coast to the west). Because of DEN I would guess there are plenty of WN customers in COS so they could probably run a little larger than normal, for a new station, sized network out of there early on.
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:16 am

Cubsrule wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
SAV-ATL/DAL/BWI


I'll say BWI and MDW on Savannah. ATL for WN lacks frequency and connectivity to compete with DL. I don't think there's much of a market to Savannah from Dallas. We'll see.


FWIW, CHS - probably the best analog to SAV - opened with BNA, BWI, HOU, and MDW. Keep in mind that DAL was not an option when CHS opened. From SAV, I'd expect BNA, BWI, MDW, and a Texas station. ATL doesn't seem to have much upside. It's a big market but also has a lot of substitution with driving and DL has significant scheduling and aircraft size flexibility.

bob75013 wrote:
Plus having a station at the Springs will certainly make it easier when those DEN diverts happen.


WN seems to do a good job with DEN diversions to offline stations already, although having another online station close will doubtless save some money.


For SAV, it’s easy to forget that WN staked its fortune on getting people out of cars and into planes and succeeded. ATL-SAV currently has no competition against DL, so prices are often unreasonable. There is also a huge O&D market between the two cities, and people in Savannah often complain about how expensive to fly to ATL. I wouldn’t give up on WN doing a few flights in the market, especially given that the flight is an easy out and back from ATL.
 
WN732
Posts: 823
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:22 am

usdcaguy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I'll say BWI and MDW on Savannah. ATL for WN lacks frequency and connectivity to compete with DL. I don't think there's much of a market to Savannah from Dallas. We'll see.


FWIW, CHS - probably the best analog to SAV - opened with BNA, BWI, HOU, and MDW. Keep in mind that DAL was not an option when CHS opened. From SAV, I'd expect BNA, BWI, MDW, and a Texas station. ATL doesn't seem to have much upside. It's a big market but also has a lot of substitution with driving and DL has significant scheduling and aircraft size flexibility.

bob75013 wrote:
Plus having a station at the Springs will certainly make it easier when those DEN diverts happen.


WN seems to do a good job with DEN diversions to offline stations already, although having another online station close will doubtless save some money.


For SAV, it’s easy to forget that WN staked its fortune on getting people out of cars and into planes and succeeded. ATL-SAV currently has no competition against DL, so prices are often unreasonable. There is also a huge O&D market between the two cities, and people in Savannah often complain about how expensive to fly to ATL. I wouldn’t give up on WN doing a few flights in the market, especially given that the flight is an easy out and back from ATL.


I think it's a no brainier. Since they do BNA, CHS, JAX, ECP, I would definitely not be surprised to see SAV from ATL too.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:39 am

Jshank83 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
I should have specified to connect onward to another destination. How much is the breakover price to fly or drive to DEN to journey onward? Which I suppose depends on a party of 1, 2, or 4. Definitely not paying $400 for a family of four over just getting in the car.


ok - well, that is why I can see DEN-COS on WN happening, jumping to their network for DEN, just like what the UA flyers do in COS connecting to UA's network.


I would never say never on COS-DEN, because it’s DEN but if they run to some combination of PHX/LAS/MDW/STL/BNA/ATL/Texas they should be able to cover anything DEN offers. Just seems silly to run a route with literally no O&D when there are plenty of other big stations they have to fly by anyway on the way to anywhere else (unlike UA, which has to go all the way to the coast to the west). Because of DEN I would guess there are plenty of WN customers in COS so they could probably run a little larger than normal, for a new station, sized network out of there early on.


I could maybe see a 1x DEN-COS daily as pure utilization flying. Take a bird that might ordinarily RON at DEN, fly it down to COS and then have it leave really early to fly back up to DEN to connect to all of the morning flights.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:02 am

GSP psgr wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

ok - well, that is why I can see DEN-COS on WN happening, jumping to their network for DEN, just like what the UA flyers do in COS connecting to UA's network.


I would never say never on COS-DEN, because it’s DEN but if they run to some combination of PHX/LAS/MDW/STL/BNA/ATL/Texas they should be able to cover anything DEN offers. Just seems silly to run a route with literally no O&D when there are plenty of other big stations they have to fly by anyway on the way to anywhere else (unlike UA, which has to go all the way to the coast to the west). Because of DEN I would guess there are plenty of WN customers in COS so they could probably run a little larger than normal, for a new station, sized network out of there early on.


I could maybe see a 1x DEN-COS daily as pure utilization flying. Take a bird that might ordinarily RON at DEN, fly it down to COS and then have it leave really early to fly back up to DEN to connect to all of the morning flights.


I guess they could do that. Early morning up. Late night back.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:26 am

WN732 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

FWIW, CHS - probably the best analog to SAV - opened with BNA, BWI, HOU, and MDW. Keep in mind that DAL was not an option when CHS opened. From SAV, I'd expect BNA, BWI, MDW, and a Texas station. ATL doesn't seem to have much upside. It's a big market but also has a lot of substitution with driving and DL has significant scheduling and aircraft size flexibility.



WN seems to do a good job with DEN diversions to offline stations already, although having another online station close will doubtless save some money.


For SAV, it’s easy to forget that WN staked its fortune on getting people out of cars and into planes and succeeded. ATL-SAV currently has no competition against DL, so prices are often unreasonable. There is also a huge O&D market between the two cities, and people in Savannah often complain about how expensive to fly to ATL. I wouldn’t give up on WN doing a few flights in the market, especially given that the flight is an easy out and back from ATL.


I think it's a no brainier. Since they do BNA, CHS, JAX, ECP, I would definitely not be surprised to see SAV from ATL too.


Yeah - people saying no ATL-SAV have clearly not been following WN lately out of ATL. They’re very clearly adding service to traditional DL monopoly markets in the South and offering ATL as a connector again - OKC and OMA were to be in addition to all the ones you mentioned, before they got cut again with COVID.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2559
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:25 am

The folks in Fresno are probably having steam coming from their ears right about now...all these new cities and they're STILL not added by WN.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14150
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:03 pm

bob75013 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


One airline is going to go into bankruptcy… And they are all going to follow. Just like in the mid 2000s. The only question at this point, who’s going to go in first and start a chain reaction


How could I have possibly missed the announcement that WN went bankrupt in the mid 2000s?


Neither did Continental.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14150
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:11 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
With all these new destinations proposed by WN I'll throw another successful former FL city in the mix: BMI.


Wait...what?


FL is the code for AirTran, there are few destinations that FL had a pretty robust operation that WN dropped including BMI. One thing I never understood was why WN didn't fly EWR-ATL.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2875
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:45 pm

[code][/code]
panam330 wrote:
COS is a nifty, but great, addition to their expanding Colorado market. Wonder if they’ll choose to serve DEN-COS.
The return to JAN is bizarre; if they couldn’t make it work in much better times, what’s changed their minds? Subsidies, perhaps?


What’s changed without reading the whole thread is unlike last time with WN’s own ground staff, this time they can substantially lower costs and contract out the station.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14623
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:01 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
WN732 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:

For SAV, it’s easy to forget that WN staked its fortune on getting people out of cars and into planes and succeeded. ATL-SAV currently has no competition against DL, so prices are often unreasonable. There is also a huge O&D market between the two cities, and people in Savannah often complain about how expensive to fly to ATL. I wouldn’t give up on WN doing a few flights in the market, especially given that the flight is an easy out and back from ATL.


I think it's a no brainier. Since they do BNA, CHS, JAX, ECP, I would definitely not be surprised to see SAV from ATL too.


Yeah - people saying no ATL-SAV have clearly not been following WN lately out of ATL. They’re very clearly adding service to traditional DL monopoly markets in the South and offering ATL as a connector again - OKC and OMA were to be in addition to all the ones you mentioned, before they got cut again with COVID.


I'm trying to think of a market that is as small and as DL-focused as SAV that they have started ex-SAV, and I don't think any of those you've identified fits the bill. I think we might see ATL down the road once they have some brand equity in SAV - very much like what happened with CHS - but I don't see how they benefit from opening the station with ATL.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
AndoAv8R
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:29 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:16 pm

I'm not very surprised they are starting routes out of COS. From what I hear Frontier has been having good luck expanding there, and until the interstate clusterf**k between Denver and Colorado Springs gets finished (expanding to 3 lanes each direction) I'm sure a lot of people will prefer not having to drive to Denver.

I would think a Northern Colorado Regional Airport (formerly ft collins-loveland) to Las Vegas would work out, I seem to remember Allegiant was flying mostly full flights on that route.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:40 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
The folks in Fresno are probably having steam coming from their ears right about now...all these new cities and they're STILL not added by WN.


I think this has gotta be at least partially about gate space. Current airport management at FAT's game plan is to operate the minimum number of gates possible and have all its airlines share, and the rumor is that WN does not like that idea. There's really no completely free gates that aren't ground level, and it will be a couple of years before any new ones open...
 
dfw88
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:55 pm

9lflyguy wrote:
Well, comparing anything to the last few months isn't reality, and I'd say more kudos to UA for recognizing a reduced schedule was needed.

Destinations served in Colorado (and you will never see WN overtake UA in Colorado):

UA: DEN/COS/HDN/MTJ/EGE/ASE/DRO/GUC/GJT/PUB
WN: DEN/COS/HDN/MTJ


In destinations, probably not. In passengers carried, it's possible. And lets be honest, how many of those UA routes are EAS subsidies?


Um, one? None of the ski markets are EAS. Just PUB (and I think UA is picking up ALS early next year).

https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2020-03/Current%20list%20of%20EAS-Eligible%20communities%20excl%20AK%20%20HI_Feb2020_0.pdf
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1409
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:22 pm

I just got an email from Southwest letting me know they're opening up middle seats starting December 1.
 
WN732
Posts: 823
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:45 pm

flyfresno wrote:
WN732 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
I've read this Quote from GK on several different sights .
"These first destinations are just the beginning; we are looking at more places to put People and planes to work—as quickly as we can.
It’s exciting to take the fight to the competition, and put idle aircraft and overstaffed Employees to work. This is an opportunity to generate more revenue with minimal additional costs.

And fortunately, our route map still has dozens of new airport opportunities for growth with 737s. We’ll pursue these opportunities aggressively, but not recklessly. In every case, they must meet our cash flow threshold and contribute to our recovery."

GK taking a page and lesson from his mentor HERB. Who always believed a IDLE aircraft sitting around cost you more money than one being used to produce additional revenue.

I think Spring 2021 is gonna be the biggest organic growth in WN History.

Flyguy


Fresno better get in there.


I will be curious to see whether WN changes their tune when it comes to dedicated gate space. While I haven't seen any direct confirmation about this, multiple rumors (as well as WN gate situations at most of their domestic airports) supports their desire for dedicated (not shared) gates. FAT has been adamant about sharing gates between carriers (not having any dedicated gates, even though, in practice, most gates at FAT are dedicated right now), and I wonder how much that has played and will play into WN choosing to serve FAT. The new concourse and FIS gates aren't scheduled to open for at least two years, and there will only be two of them. If we assume those gates will be used for Y4 and AM, as well as F9 and G4 during the day, and we give one jetway each to DL (11) and UA (15 - plus lower gates 5 & 7), two jetways to AS (8 & 12) and two to AA (14 & 16), that only leaves one dedicated WN gate (17), assuming they don't want to use air stairs (and why should they), and that's after construction is complete. Enough?


One gate for WN should be fine. They could still squeeze 10 flights or more per day if they wanted to. I don't think they would start with that many, but they would definitely grow into FAT.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:00 pm

WN732 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
WN732 wrote:

Fresno better get in there.


I will be curious to see whether WN changes their tune when it comes to dedicated gate space. While I haven't seen any direct confirmation about this, multiple rumors (as well as WN gate situations at most of their domestic airports) supports their desire for dedicated (not shared) gates. FAT has been adamant about sharing gates between carriers (not having any dedicated gates, even though, in practice, most gates at FAT are dedicated right now), and I wonder how much that has played and will play into WN choosing to serve FAT. The new concourse and FIS gates aren't scheduled to open for at least two years, and there will only be two of them. If we assume those gates will be used for Y4 and AM, as well as F9 and G4 during the day, and we give one jetway each to DL (11) and UA (15 - plus lower gates 5 & 7), two jetways to AS (8 & 12) and two to AA (14 & 16), that only leaves one dedicated WN gate (17), assuming they don't want to use air stairs (and why should they), and that's after construction is complete. Enough?


One gate for WN should be fine. They could still squeeze 10 flights or more per day if they wanted to. I don't think they would start with that many, but they would definitely grow into FAT.


I think PSP flight level is about what you would see at FAT. The question is will they fly inter California from FAT. Like FAT-SAN,FAT-OAK or even FAT-LAX.
Or would they keep it something like 2 PHX,2 LAS and 1 DEN?
I can't remember if Allegiant tried FAT-HNL and if it was successful enough for WN to entertain the possibility of adding service.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:08 pm

WN732 wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
WN732 wrote:

Fresno better get in there.


I will be curious to see whether WN changes their tune when it comes to dedicated gate space. While I haven't seen any direct confirmation about this, multiple rumors (as well as WN gate situations at most of their domestic airports) supports their desire for dedicated (not shared) gates. FAT has been adamant about sharing gates between carriers (not having any dedicated gates, even though, in practice, most gates at FAT are dedicated right now), and I wonder how much that has played and will play into WN choosing to serve FAT. The new concourse and FIS gates aren't scheduled to open for at least two years, and there will only be two of them. If we assume those gates will be used for Y4 and AM, as well as F9 and G4 during the day, and we give one jetway each to DL (11) and UA (15 - plus lower gates 5 & 7), two jetways to AS (8 & 12) and two to AA (14 & 16), that only leaves one dedicated WN gate (17), assuming they don't want to use air stairs (and why should they), and that's after construction is complete. Enough?


One gate for WN should be fine. They could still squeeze 10 flights or more per day if they wanted to. I don't think they would start with that many, but they would definitely grow into FAT.


I would assume so. Probably something like 6am to DEN, 7am tow from RON to PHX, 9am from SAN -> 10am to SAN, 11am from PHX -> 12pm to LAS, 4pm from LAS -> 5pm to SAN, 6pm from SAN -> 7PM to LAS, 9pm from DEN tow to RON (-> PHX next morning), 10pm from LAS (-> DEN next morning).
 
evank516
Posts: 2170
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:19 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
WN732 wrote:

I think it's a no brainier. Since they do BNA, CHS, JAX, ECP, I would definitely not be surprised to see SAV from ATL too.


Yeah - people saying no ATL-SAV have clearly not been following WN lately out of ATL. They’re very clearly adding service to traditional DL monopoly markets in the South and offering ATL as a connector again - OKC and OMA were to be in addition to all the ones you mentioned, before they got cut again with COVID.


I'm trying to think of a market that is as small and as DL-focused as SAV that they have started ex-SAV, and I don't think any of those you've identified fits the bill. I think we might see ATL down the road once they have some brand equity in SAV - very much like what happened with CHS - but I don't see how they benefit from opening the station with ATL.


GSP, no?
 
bob75013
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 pm

Southwest says it is investigating the A220 as a fleet addition:

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/68e85392-3f ... hwest.html
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:01 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
The question is will they fly inter California from FAT. Like FAT-SAN,FAT-OAK or even FAT-LAX.
Or would they keep it something like 2 PHX,2 LAS and 1 DEN?
I can't remember if Allegiant tried FAT-HNL and if it was successful enough for WN to entertain the possibility of adding service.


Definitely SAN, that's one of the top ten O&D markets from FAT, but otherwise, likely not.

I would say 2 LAS, 1 DEN, 1 PHX, 1-2 SAN.

Yes, Allegiant did HNL, and it's definitely possible, but a few years down the line, not right away. More likely they would try to filter HNL pax through SAN first...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14623
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:09 pm

evank516 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Yeah - people saying no ATL-SAV have clearly not been following WN lately out of ATL. They’re very clearly adding service to traditional DL monopoly markets in the South and offering ATL as a connector again - OKC and OMA were to be in addition to all the ones you mentioned, before they got cut again with COVID.


I'm trying to think of a market that is as small and as DL-focused as SAV that they have started ex-SAV, and I don't think any of those you've identified fits the bill. I think we might see ATL down the road once they have some brand equity in SAV - very much like what happened with CHS - but I don't see how they benefit from opening the station with ATL.


GSP, no?


GSP opened with the same cities as CHS (BNA/BWI/HOU/MDW) plus MCO. I'd make a similar point about GSP as I would about CHS, although I think CHS is a more similar market to SAV than is GSP.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2728
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:23 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Southwest says it is investigating the A220 as a fleet addition:

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/68e85392-3f ... hwest.html


If ever there was a time to make a killer deal and lock in delivery spots, now's the time.

IMHO, the A221's would be perfect 735 replacements and of course the A223's would be ideal 737-700 replacements.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5458
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:15 pm

This is a topic that doesn't get examined enough. A220 on its own would be a really good fit for WN. However, I don't know how much the additional complexity from another fleet type would do to their costs.
 
LightChop2Chop
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:01 pm

tphuang wrote:
This is a topic that doesn't get examined enough. A220 on its own would be a really good fit for WN. However, I don't know how much the additional complexity from another fleet type would do to their costs.


Not to mention the 220 is much lighter than the 7377max. that should help efficiencies and costs

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos