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nine4nine
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New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:46 pm

With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains, out further west is there any operational limits to a 220/319/73G in and out of MMH on a shorter hop with lighter fuel loads?

In regards to Lake Tahoe Airport (TVL) which I believe shut down commercial ops in 2004 due to tower staffing, would there ever be a push to reopen the tower and allow service to resume for resort feed? The resorts in the Rockies are going to be a goldmine this season and I’m sure other resort areas may want a piece of the pie.
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evank516
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:25 pm

nine4nine wrote:
With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains, out further west is there any operational limits to a 220/319/73G in and out of MMH on a shorter hop with lighter fuel loads?

In regards to Lake Tahoe Airport (TVL) which I believe shut down commercial ops in 2004 due to tower staffing, would there ever be a push to reopen the tower and allow service to resume for resort feed? The resorts in the Rockies are going to be a goldmine this season and I’m sure other resort areas may want a piece of the pie.


It would take a lot more than reopening the tower at TVL. They would have to reconvert their entire terminal to accommodate commercial ops again. I believe they converted the terminal into their city hall. Also, while it is obviously preferred I don’t think you need a towered airport for commercial ops. I think Fort Collins is or was lacking a tower and Allegiant was there.
 
32andBelow
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:39 pm

You don’t need a tower to have commercial ops. Plenty of us airports don’t have tower
 
MIflyer12
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:48 pm

nine4nine wrote:
With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains...


MTJ and HDN are destinations that have had mainline service a long time -- B6 and WN just got around to 'discovering' them.
 
MaxTrimm
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:49 pm

Many towers across the US close at 8pm/9pm whenever and commercial ops continue. At my home airport, PSC, the tower will close and there could be several commercial flights coming in within a few minutes. Pilots are trained from the beginning to operate without a control tower
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:28 pm

You might be able to get a 73G to the Bay Area, LA, or Las Vegas. MMH is still 7,100 ft. above sea level with only a 7,000 ft. runway.
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sadde
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:04 pm

You could probably get a -700 in there based on the pavement loading (looks like max 150,000lbs at MMH). The approach is not applicable to category D planes, not sure where the -700 falls but it could easily be restricted to VFR only days at MMH based on weight. I think it’s a lot more likely you’d see Horizon there with 175s before SWA or UAL for example flying in mainline.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:37 pm

I thought BIH (Bishop) is opening up to Category D aircraft to get people to Mammoth.
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wedgetail737
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:23 am

KLMatSJC wrote:
You might be able to get a 73G to the Bay Area, LA, or Las Vegas. MMH is still 7,100 ft. above sea level with only a 7,000 ft. runway.


You all forget that AirCal use to fly MD-80's and 733's into TVL. Tahoe Air (aka Casino Express) used 737-200's, G4 used DC-9-50's into TVL. I think even a 73H could fly into TVL, MMH or BIH. I would love to see AS tackle these destinations. I know, QX tried MMH with Q400's.

I flew OAK-MMH on Alpha Air (7V) back in late 1980's on a Cessna 402.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:26 am

JAC tower opens at 7:00 am and airlines do not schedule flights before then. The airlines don't seem to have any issue with landing after the tower closes, however.
 
alasizon
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:13 am

evank516 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains, out further west is there any operational limits to a 220/319/73G in and out of MMH on a shorter hop with lighter fuel loads?

In regards to Lake Tahoe Airport (TVL) which I believe shut down commercial ops in 2004 due to tower staffing, would there ever be a push to reopen the tower and allow service to resume for resort feed? The resorts in the Rockies are going to be a goldmine this season and I’m sure other resort areas may want a piece of the pie.


It would take a lot more than reopening the tower at TVL. They would have to reconvert their entire terminal to accommodate commercial ops again. I believe they converted the terminal into their city hall. Also, while it is obviously preferred I don’t think you need a towered airport for commercial ops. I think Fort Collins is or was lacking a tower and Allegiant was there.


TVL also gave up their part 139 certification which is required for commercial Ops. Truckee would be in the best position for re-adding flights to the Tahoe basin.

DLASFlyer wrote:
JAC tower opens at 7:00 am and airlines do not schedule flights before then. The airlines don't seem to have any issue with landing after the tower closes, however.


That likely isn't the cause, just more so to do with timing of getting the plane back to the hub.

nine4nine wrote:
With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains, out further west is there any operational limits to a 220/319/73G in and out of MMH on a shorter hop with lighter fuel loads?



MMH isn't just a runway issue, the elevation and very narrow valley entrance play a roll. Getting anything bigger than a Q400/CR7 in there is a bit touchy. Only one way in and one way out at 7000 feet.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:34 am

RNO and to a lesser extent SMF and even SFO/OAK are the airports for the Tahoe region.

Lake Tahoe region skiing is highly west-coast centric. They don't tend to get the influx of East Coast and Midwestern skiers to the extent of Colorado, Utah, and increasingly Wyoming and Montana.
 
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:00 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
RNO and to a lesser extent SMF and even SFO/OAK are the airports for the Tahoe region.

Lake Tahoe region skiing is highly west-coast centric. They don't tend to get the influx of East Coast and Midwestern skiers to the extent of Colorado, Utah, and increasingly Wyoming and Montana.

I'm giving Tahoe another 5-10 years, but I am willing to bet it becomes more popular here in the East.

Palm Springs is just now starting to become more and more recognizable as a "mainstream" tourism destination on the East Coast.
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SurfandSnow
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:15 am

nine4nine wrote:
With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains, out further west is there any operational limits to a 220/319/73G in and out of MMH on a shorter hop with lighter fuel loads?


WN will probably want to serve a "Yosemite Airport" - but not MMH. Next month, after WN begins service to PSP, FAT will be by far the busiest airport - and arguably by far the most important market as well - in California that still lacks Southwest Airlines service. Given how stunningly beautiful Yosemite National Park is during the summertime (barring any wildfires, of course), I could see FAT being added in time for the summer 2021 travel season. Keep in mind that FAT would also function as a much more convenient gateway than MMH for pax headed to other popular nearby destinations such as Bakersfield, Kings Canyon National Park, Merced, San Luis Obispo and Sequoia National Park too. MMH might be closer to Death Valley National Park, but that's already pretty accessible to WN fliers via LAS.

Other popular national park destinations, like ANC (Denali National Park), BZN (Yellowstone National Park), EYW (Dry Tortugas National Park), FCA (Glacier National Park), FLG (Grand Canyon National Park), JAC (this airport is actually inside of the Grand Teton National Park) and/or TYS (Great Smoky Mountains National Park - the most popular one of them all) could be added in conjunction with FAT too.

Obviously, some of those aforementioned destinations could serve skiers and snowboarders in addition to folks headed to the parks. However, Jackson Hole is a *much* bigger draw nationally than Mammoth Mountain is. You're far more likely to meet visitors that flew in from Chicago or New York at Jackson Hole than you are at Mammoth, and I don't expect that to change even if an expanded Bishop Airport ends up buying as much mainline air service as it can afford in the future. I grew up in the Chicago area as an avid snowboarder, but had never heard of Mammoth until moving to LA and meeting locals that told me to drive up there. I would be pretty surprised to see WN try any kind of service to MMH (or an expanded BIH if MMH's surrounding terrain absolutely precludes the airport from handling anything larger than the CRJ-700) given the sheer lack of brand awareness of Mammoth outside of California. Countless other American ski resorts such as Aspen, Big Sky, Breckenridge, Jackson Hole, Park City, Steamboat Springs, Sun Valley, Telluride, Vail and of course "Tahoe" simply seem to be far better known to folks in other states. I think WN is far more likely to serve those places, in the cases that it isn't already, than Mammoth anytime soon.

B6, on the other hand, has much bigger fish to fry in California these days. The airline seems determined to develop a full-fledged hub at LAX - mind you, this station was a mere spoke with Mint BOS/FLL/JFK flights along with token BUF and MCO services a few months ago. Now, Mint service has been expanded to EWR and even PBI. International flights will soon begin to Mexico and Central America. Hawaii could be added in the future once B6 has the ability to operate ETOPS flights. B6 has also shown recent interest in boosting transcontinental service (SFO-EWR was surprising, and then SFO-BDL was downright shocking) and even flying internationally from SFO.

It really is too bad OAK and LGB didn't work out for B6. However, you certainly can't say B6 didn't make any and every effort to make both of those lower-yielding, less popular airports work over the years. Consolidated operations may prove be a boon for B6 at SFO and LAX, though I really hope the airline does return to the wonderfully convenient BUR and SJC airports. Also, the A220 may finally allow B6 to serve its East Coast hubs nonstop from that awfully short SNA runway with a viable payload. I've even wondered about the possibility of service between JFK and popular high end California leisure destinations like MRY, SBA, SBP and STS on the A220. I just can't see the airline being interested in Mammoth, though. Nobody in New York City or Boston has ever heard of Mammoth.

nine4nine wrote:
In regards to Lake Tahoe Airport (TVL) which I believe shut down commercial ops in 2004 due to tower staffing, would there ever be a push to reopen the tower and allow service to resume for resort feed? The resorts in the Rockies are going to be a goldmine this season and I’m sure other resort areas may want a piece of the pie.


Nevada just built that new highway between Reno and South Lake Tahoe. The drive between Heavenly and the booming RNO airport has never been easier. Is there really a need for air service to TVL anymore - especially with so much community NIMBY opposition? If you thought Long Beach was bad...

Also, consider the fact that the drive from TVL to the luxurious northern end of the lake is not an easy one. That area is also much more accessible from RNO, and of course you can drive up from SMF or even SFO. That is fairly common practice, given how expensive flights into RNO and SMF can be. Maybe all the new flights to RNO will bring down fares and change that, though!
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KLMatSJC
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:19 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
other popular nearby destinations such as Bakersfield, Kings Canyon National Park, Merced, San Luis Obispo and Sequoia National Park too

I wouldn't call Bakersfield or Merced "popular" by any stretch. San Luis Obispo is actually just as close to SJC, and most people associate it with the Bay Area or the Los Angeles area.
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evank516
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:57 pm

alasizon wrote:
evank516 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains, out further west is there any operational limits to a 220/319/73G in and out of MMH on a shorter hop with lighter fuel loads?

In regards to Lake Tahoe Airport (TVL) which I believe shut down commercial ops in 2004 due to tower staffing, would there ever be a push to reopen the tower and allow service to resume for resort feed? The resorts in the Rockies are going to be a goldmine this season and I’m sure other resort areas may want a piece of the pie.


It would take a lot more than reopening the tower at TVL. They would have to reconvert their entire terminal to accommodate commercial ops again. I believe they converted the terminal into their city hall. Also, while it is obviously preferred I don’t think you need a towered airport for commercial ops. I think Fort Collins is or was lacking a tower and Allegiant was there.


TVL also gave up their part 139 certification which is required for commercial Ops. Truckee would be in the best position for re-adding flights to the Tahoe basin.



TVL would be idea due to runway length given elevation above MSL. They have 1,500 feet of runway over TRK. If they wanted to allow commercial ops again they could get their 139 cert back.
 
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:18 pm

I don't see a big future for TVL except maybe a few California routes.

Bishop will be able to handle mainline and large RJs for Mammoth and be reliable. Huge upgrade coming for Mammoth traffic.

For people headed to Tahoe. Reno offers so many time options, destinations and low fares. The drive really is pretty easy. It's nothing like Denver airport out to Vail or Aspen etc. The airport didn't work out because honestly Reno is too close and easy to get to Tahoe
 
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Coronado990
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:49 pm

Wasn't TVL (South Lake Tahoe) more of a summer time destination? I remember PSA, Air Cal and even before that Holiday Airlines bringing Electra's in there as an intra-state flight as they couldn't serve RNO at that time until deregulation.
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atcdan
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:44 pm

While FAT is technically “close” to MMH, there is no access in the winter other than driving up through Tahoe. Even driving the most direct route in the summer requires going through Yosemite National Park and while a beautiful drive, is about 4 hours.

LAX-MMH driving is about 5 hours, which is why AS and UA served that route through last winter with regional partners.
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32andBelow
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:48 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
RNO and to a lesser extent SMF and even SFO/OAK are the airports for the Tahoe region.

Lake Tahoe region skiing is highly west-coast centric. They don't tend to get the influx of East Coast and Midwestern skiers to the extent of Colorado, Utah, and increasingly Wyoming and Montana.

Wait till the east coast finds out Tahoe has amazing skiing, is warmer, AND HAS GAMBLING
 
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:01 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
other popular nearby destinations such as Bakersfield, Kings Canyon National Park, Merced, San Luis Obispo and Sequoia National Park too

I wouldn't call Bakersfield or Merced "popular" by any stretch. San Luis Obispo is actually just as close to SJC, and most people associate it with the Bay Area or the Los Angeles area.


I was thinking the same thing about Bakersfield and Merced!
 
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:09 pm

32andBelow wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
RNO and to a lesser extent SMF and even SFO/OAK are the airports for the Tahoe region.

Lake Tahoe region skiing is highly west-coast centric. They don't tend to get the influx of East Coast and Midwestern skiers to the extent of Colorado, Utah, and increasingly Wyoming and Montana.

Wait till the east coast finds out Tahoe has amazing skiing, is warmer, AND HAS GAMBLING


I've been going to Tahoe for almost 25 years. The gambling is really only at Stateline on the south end of the lake, thus if you are skiing Squaw or anything up north the gambling is a little piece of the puzzle. Also over recent years the casinos themselves are much smaller then they were in the past. The whole back portion of Harvey's is empty, Lakeside is closed now and the former Caesars is a ghost town. With Heavenly and Kirkwood owned by Vail Resorts now the Epic pass is now a consideration for those in other areas.

In the past 5 years they have only had one epic year of snow one ok and the rest were terrible.
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flyboy7974
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:39 pm

I had always hoped JSX would go into TVL from southern Cal.

Yearly trip this summer to south Tahoe wasn’t the same, as mentioned, it was a ghost town.
 
USAirALB
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:00 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
With all the adds, mostly by B6 and WN to mostly small mountain resort towns up and down the Rocky Mountains, out further west is there any operational limits to a 220/319/73G in and out of MMH on a shorter hop with lighter fuel loads?


WN will probably want to serve a "Yosemite Airport" - but not MMH. Next month, after WN begins service to PSP, FAT will be by far the busiest airport - and arguably by far the most important market as well - in California that still lacks Southwest Airlines service. Given how stunningly beautiful Yosemite National Park is during the summertime (barring any wildfires, of course), I could see FAT being added in time for the summer 2021 travel season. Keep in mind that FAT would also function as a much more convenient gateway than MMH for pax headed to other popular nearby destinations such as Bakersfield, Kings Canyon National Park, Merced, San Luis Obispo and Sequoia National Park too. MMH might be closer to Death Valley National Park, but that's already pretty accessible to WN fliers via LAS.

Other popular national park destinations, like ANC (Denali National Park), BZN (Yellowstone National Park), EYW (Dry Tortugas National Park), FCA (Glacier National Park), FLG (Grand Canyon National Park), JAC (this airport is actually inside of the Grand Teton National Park) and/or TYS (Great Smoky Mountains National Park - the most popular one of them all) could be added in conjunction with FAT too.

Obviously, some of those aforementioned destinations could serve skiers and snowboarders in addition to folks headed to the parks. However, Jackson Hole is a *much* bigger draw nationally than Mammoth Mountain is. You're far more likely to meet visitors that flew in from Chicago or New York at Jackson Hole than you are at Mammoth, and I don't expect that to change even if an expanded Bishop Airport ends up buying as much mainline air service as it can afford in the future. I grew up in the Chicago area as an avid snowboarder, but had never heard of Mammoth until moving to LA and meeting locals that told me to drive up there. I would be pretty surprised to see WN try any kind of service to MMH (or an expanded BIH if MMH's surrounding terrain absolutely precludes the airport from handling anything larger than the CRJ-700) given the sheer lack of brand awareness of Mammoth outside of California. Countless other American ski resorts such as Aspen, Big Sky, Breckenridge, Jackson Hole, Park City, Steamboat Springs, Sun Valley, Telluride, Vail and of course "Tahoe" simply seem to be far better known to folks in other states. I think WN is far more likely to serve those places, in the cases that it isn't already, than Mammoth anytime soon.

B6, on the other hand, has much bigger fish to fry in California these days. The airline seems determined to develop a full-fledged hub at LAX - mind you, this station was a mere spoke with Mint BOS/FLL/JFK flights along with token BUF and MCO services a few months ago. Now, Mint service has been expanded to EWR and even PBI. International flights will soon begin to Mexico and Central America. Hawaii could be added in the future once B6 has the ability to operate ETOPS flights. B6 has also shown recent interest in boosting transcontinental service (SFO-EWR was surprising, and then SFO-BDL was downright shocking) and even flying internationally from SFO.

It really is too bad OAK and LGB didn't work out for B6. However, you certainly can't say B6 didn't make any and every effort to make both of those lower-yielding, less popular airports work over the years. Consolidated operations may prove be a boon for B6 at SFO and LAX, though I really hope the airline does return to the wonderfully convenient BUR and SJC airports. Also, the A220 may finally allow B6 to serve its East Coast hubs nonstop from that awfully short SNA runway with a viable payload. I've even wondered about the possibility of service between JFK and popular high end California leisure destinations like MRY, SBA, SBP and STS on the A220. I just can't see the airline being interested in Mammoth, though. Nobody in New York City or Boston has ever heard of Mammoth.

nine4nine wrote:
In regards to Lake Tahoe Airport (TVL) which I believe shut down commercial ops in 2004 due to tower staffing, would there ever be a push to reopen the tower and allow service to resume for resort feed? The resorts in the Rockies are going to be a goldmine this season and I’m sure other resort areas may want a piece of the pie.


Nevada just built that new highway between Reno and South Lake Tahoe. The drive between Heavenly and the booming RNO airport has never been easier. Is there really a need for air service to TVL anymore - especially with so much community NIMBY opposition? If you thought Long Beach was bad...

Also, consider the fact that the drive from TVL to the luxurious northern end of the lake is not an easy one. That area is also much more accessible from RNO, and of course you can drive up from SMF or even SFO. That is fairly common practice, given how expensive flights into RNO and SMF can be. Maybe all the new flights to RNO will bring down fares and change that, though!

I like that you brought up SBA (which is actually my favorite airport to fly in/out of in the continental US!). Up until early this year, my best friend used to live in Carpinteria and I would make the journey out to see her 2-3 times a year.

From the East coast, particularly the Northeast, there was really no pleasant way to get there and it quite often took the whole day just to fly there given that there are so few flights to SBA and the amount of connection opportunities is quite small. Fares are often high, and often I fly to LAX and take the SB Airbus, which is decent as long as you take it outside rush hour. One time the bus took 3.5 hours to drive to Carpinteria in traffic. No thanks.

I've noticed that traffic from SBA has grown quite significantly over the past several years. AA added mainline to PHX/DFW runs. AS added mainline to SEA and introduced service to PDX. UA added mainline to SFO and DEN, and introduced a flight to ORD.

UA adding service to ORD shows me that UA saw an increased amount of connection traffic to/from SBA to the Northeast. I still think SBA is off the radar for most Easterners as a tourist destination, and I think its traffic is likely suppressed due to its proximity to LAX. I can't really see WN entering the market, but I think B6 would probably be successful at a once daily flight to JFK on an A220.
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spinkid
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:04 pm

I was browsing through Southwest's History section on their website, and what may be the highlight of my Saturday night, I found t his bit of info I thought I'd add in just for fun.

May 22, 1985

Southwest announces nonstop service from HOU to Jackson Hole, Wyoming throughout the 1985-86 ski season from December 21, 1985 through April 5, 1986.
 
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:07 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
RNO and to a lesser extent SMF and even SFO/OAK are the airports for the Tahoe region.

Lake Tahoe region skiing is highly west-coast centric. They don't tend to get the influx of East Coast and Midwestern skiers to the extent of Colorado, Utah, and increasingly Wyoming and Montana.

I agree, why would anyone bother with TVL when RNO is so close.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:32 am

USAirALB wrote:
UA adding service to ORD shows me that UA saw an increased amount of connection traffic to/from SBA to the Northeast. I still think SBA is off the radar for most Easterners as a tourist destination, and I think its traffic is likely suppressed due to its proximity to LAX. I can't really see WN entering the market, but I think B6 would probably be successful at a once daily flight to JFK on an A220.


The Santa Barbara area has been making some awfully good wine lately - and I think folks on the East Coast have taken notice of them. Of course, WN wouldn't be flying very far if the rumors of it adding SBA services ever did come true (stranger things have been happening this year after all). I wouldn't rule this out. FAT will indeed be the busiest airport in California without WN service once PSP comes online in a few weeks. The next busiest airport, however, is going to be SBA. After that, you're talking about much smaller airports like BFL, MRY, SBP and STS that are very unlikely to see WN service in the near future.

I could honestly see 1-2x daily each SBA-DEN/LAS/OAK/PHX/SJC/SMF doing well for WN - a healthy mix of VFR and leisure travelers, O&D as well as connecting beyond those hubs or whatever WN wants to call them. They could even serve DAL nonstop on Saturdays! A WN operation at SBA probably would indeed overwhelmingly cater to shorter haul travelers in the West given the relative lack of awareness of Santa Barbara in the East.
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FATFlyer
Posts: 5029
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:06 am

The shift of commercial flights from MMH to BIH is still in progress. But for several reason including COVID-19 the timeline is now moving commercial flights to BIH in 2021.
https://www.mammothtimes.com/content/bishop-based-regional-air-service-delayed-2021
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1081
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:31 pm

atcdan wrote:
While FAT is technically “close” to MMH, there is no access in the winter other than driving up through Tahoe. Even driving the most direct route in the summer requires going through Yosemite National Park and while a beautiful drive, is about 4 hours.

LAX-MMH driving is about 5 hours, which is why AS and UA served that route through last winter with regional partners.


Yep, while the two cities are only like 100 miles apart as the crow flies, there's the little problem of a 10,000+ foot mountain range and basically no roads straight through. In the summer, it's about 4:30 driving through Yosemite, but way longer in the winter when that road closes (I think down through Mojave might actually be faster). Fun fact, UA had "express" service (I think on a jet stream) from BIH to FAT back in the day!
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 5029
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:04 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
FAT will indeed be the busiest airport in California without WN service once PSP comes online in a few weeks. The next busiest airport, however, is going to be SBA. After that, you're talking about much smaller airports like BFL, MRY, SBP and STS that are very unlikely to see WN service in the near future.

I could honestly see 1-2x daily each SBA-DEN/LAS/OAK/PHX/SJC/SMF doing well for WN - a healthy mix of VFR and leisure travelers, O&D as well as connecting beyond those hubs or whatever WN wants to call them. They could even serve DAL nonstop on Saturdays! A WN operation at SBA probably would indeed overwhelmingly cater to shorter haul travelers in the West given the relative lack of awareness of Santa Barbara in the East.


In terms of 2019 enplanements (not MSA size or tourism numbers), the largest California airports not served by WN will be:
Fresno - 965,000 enplanements (965,000/365 = 2,644 per day)
Santa Barbara - 509,000 enplanements (509,000/365 = 1,395 per day)
San Luis Obispo - 267,000 enplanements (267,000/365 = 732 per day)
Santa Rosa - 239,000 enplanements (239,000/365 = 655 per day)
Monterey - 233,000 enplanements (233,000/365 = 638 per day)

I don't have BFL's exact enplanements handy, but if I remember it was about 130,000 in 2019 after seeing a 20% increase from the DFW flights that started in March 2019.

80% LFs on WN's current 737-700s would be about 115 enplanements per flight.

6 daily flights would be about 685 enplanements per day for WN. A big impact at SBA and even more so at the smaller airports.

Then for any new leisure based destination there is the question of tourist infrastructure. A new entrant will steal some current tourist traffic but how much additional growth capacity is available in terms of things like lodging. Occupancy rates, planned hotels, etc. all are a consideration.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
nine4nine
Topic Author
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:17 pm

FATFlyer wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
FAT will indeed be the busiest airport in California without WN service once PSP comes online in a few weeks. The next busiest airport, however, is going to be SBA. After that, you're talking about much smaller airports like BFL, MRY, SBP and STS that are very unlikely to see WN service in the near future.

I could honestly see 1-2x daily each SBA-DEN/LAS/OAK/PHX/SJC/SMF doing well for WN - a healthy mix of VFR and leisure travelers, O&D as well as connecting beyond those hubs or whatever WN wants to call them. They could even serve DAL nonstop on Saturdays! A WN operation at SBA probably would indeed overwhelmingly cater to shorter haul travelers in the West given the relative lack of awareness of Santa Barbara in the East.


In terms of 2019 enplanements (not MSA size or tourism numbers), the largest California airports not served by WN will be:
Fresno - 965,000 enplanements (965,000/365 = 2,644 per day)
Santa Barbara - 509,000 enplanements (509,000/365 = 1,395 per day)
San Luis Obispo - 267,000 enplanements (267,000/365 = 732 per day)
Santa Rosa - 239,000 enplanements (239,000/365 = 655 per day)
Monterey - 233,000 enplanements (233,000/365 = 638 per day)

I don't have BFL's exact enplanements handy, but if I remember it was about 130,000 in 2019 after seeing a 20% increase from the DFW flights that started in March 2019.

80% LFs on WN's current 737-700s would be about 115 enplanements per flight.

6 daily flights would be about 685 enplanements per day for WN. A big impact at SBA and even more so at the smaller airports.

Then for any new leisure based destination there is the question of tourist infrastructure. A new entrant will steal some current tourist traffic but how much additional growth capacity is available in terms of things like lodging. Occupancy rates, planned hotels, etc. all are a consideration.



WN could have probably made MEX work had they added FAT. I think regional cities are pretty much covered from FAT, the real bread and butter would be the non tourist Mexico/Latin America markets and probably South Florida, NYC and Hawaii.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 5029
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:17 pm

nine4nine wrote:
WN could have probably made MEX work had they added FAT. I think regional cities are pretty much covered from FAT, the real bread and butter would be the non tourist Mexico/Latin America markets and probably South Florida, NYC and Hawaii.


Volaris has announced Fresno to Mexico City will start November 12. (FAT's 4th international destination by either Volaris or Aeromexico)
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:30 pm

New data show only four airports in the United States are handling more passengers this month than in October 2019. Three of them are ski towns. Delta is really looking foolish to have pulled out of Steamboat, Telluride and Aspen so fast. Alaska, Southwest and JetBlue were smart to add some of these cities (correction: towns.)
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 5768400896
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:23 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
JAC tower opens at 7:00 am and airlines do not schedule flights before then. The airlines don't seem to have any issue with landing after the tower closes, however.


JAC has a curfew. Cannot depart before 0700 by law.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 182
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:47 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
JAC tower opens at 7:00 am and airlines do not schedule flights before then. The airlines don't seem to have any issue with landing after the tower closes, however.


JAC has a curfew. Cannot depart before 0700 by law.


Not accurate.

"Voluntary Curfew:
A voluntary noise curfew is in effect to minimize impact on the noise sensitive communities located next to the Airport. We request that operators do not land between 2330 and 0600 local or takeoff between 2200 and 0600 local. Please observe this curfew unless an emergency exists."

https://www.jacksonholeairport.com/abou ... y%20exists.
 
nine4nine
Topic Author
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:40 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
New data show only four airports in the United States are handling more passengers this month than in October 2019. Three of them are ski towns. Delta is really looking foolish to have pulled out of Steamboat, Telluride and Aspen so fast. Alaska, Southwest and JetBlue were smart to add some of these cities (correction: towns.)
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 5768400896



I was ticketed SNA/SLC on a 220 SLC/ASE on a CR9 last Winter But my flight was cancelled due to Covid outbreak in ASE. Bummed I never got to go.

Agree I’m shocked with DL pulling ASE. That’s one of the most sought after premium ski areas in the country. And amongst the huge buildup of winter destinations in the industry, I thought they would for sure have lifted the service suspension by now.

What is the aircraft size limit for ASE? Is it strictly to RJ’s or can it handle 737, 220 and 320 family?
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
joeblow10
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:04 pm

nine4nine wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
New data show only four airports in the United States are handling more passengers this month than in October 2019. Three of them are ski towns. Delta is really looking foolish to have pulled out of Steamboat, Telluride and Aspen so fast. Alaska, Southwest and JetBlue were smart to add some of these cities (correction: towns.)
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 5768400896



I was ticketed SNA/SLC on a 220 SLC/ASE on a CR9 last Winter But my flight was cancelled due to Covid outbreak in ASE. Bummed I never got to go.

Agree I’m shocked with DL pulling ASE. That’s one of the most sought after premium ski areas in the country. And amongst the huge buildup of winter destinations in the industry, I thought they would for sure have lifted the service suspension by now.

What is the aircraft size limit for ASE? Is it strictly to RJ’s or can it handle 737, 220 and 320 family?


I wouldnt speak too soon about the ski towns. With the way current things are trending in the Northern Hemisphere as a whole, I wouldn’t be shocked if the ski season is severely disrupted or simply nonexistent this winter. Hope I’m wrong...
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 182
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Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:07 pm

nine4nine wrote:
What is the aircraft size limit for ASE? Is it strictly to RJ’s or can it handle 737, 220 and 320 family?

I believe the only aircraft in the Delta fleet that can do ASE are CR2s and CR7s. That may be a major factor for Delta leaving. I don’t think SLC has any CR7 presence any more. Not sure about ATL.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8250
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:14 am

CR7s into and out ASE. CR2s can't do it.

DLASFlyer wrote:
New data show only four airports in the United States are handling more passengers this month than in October 2019. Three of them are ski towns. Delta is really looking foolish to have pulled out of Steamboat, Telluride and Aspen so fast. Alaska, Southwest and JetBlue were smart to add some of these cities (correction: towns.)
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 5768400896

That requires a bit of context. October is highly shoulder season in the mountain resort towns and this year was a bit of an exception as there was more demand later in the season in part due to the lack of people traveling earlier in summer and also with lack of international travel options. This October was far from usual in JAC, EGE, HDN, etc.

Ski season is not going to be normal this year by any means due to capacity restrictions, reservations, and now increasing concerns of other restrictions.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:08 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
JAC tower opens at 7:00 am and airlines do not schedule flights before then. The airlines don't seem to have any issue with landing after the tower closes, however.


JAC has a curfew. Cannot depart before 0700 by law.


Not accurate.

"Voluntary Curfew:
A voluntary noise curfew is in effect to minimize impact on the noise sensitive communities located next to the Airport. We request that operators do not land between 2330 and 0600 local or takeoff between 2200 and 0600 local. Please observe this curfew unless an emergency exists."

https://www.jacksonholeairport.com/abou ... y%20exists.

That is for non-commercial operations. The airline lease at JAC has a stricter curfew in it.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5247
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:47 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
CR7s into and out ASE. CR2s can't do it.

DLASFlyer wrote:
New data show only four airports in the United States are handling more passengers this month than in October 2019. Three of them are ski towns. Delta is really looking foolish to have pulled out of Steamboat, Telluride and Aspen so fast. Alaska, Southwest and JetBlue were smart to add some of these cities (correction: towns.)
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 5768400896

That requires a bit of context. October is highly shoulder season in the mountain resort towns and this year was a bit of an exception as there was more demand later in the season in part due to the lack of people traveling earlier in summer and also with lack of international travel options. This October was far from usual in JAC, EGE, HDN, etc.

Ski season is not going to be normal this year by any means due to capacity restrictions, reservations, and now increasing concerns of other restrictions.



Yes and naturally with more capacity added in those markets giving people more options there is going to be more O/D. Those are also relatively small markets as well.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5247
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: New Routes-Winter Resort Mania

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:48 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
What is the aircraft size limit for ASE? Is it strictly to RJ’s or can it handle 737, 220 and 320 family?

I believe the only aircraft in the Delta fleet that can do ASE are CR2s and CR7s. That may be a major factor for Delta leaving. I don’t think SLC has any CR7 presence any more. Not sure about ATL.



Delta is not going to put a CR7 on ATL-ASE
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...

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