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Ishrion
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Updated: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Withdrawn

Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:31 pm

Delta and WestJet submitted their joint venture in early October 2018. Over two years later, the U.S. DOT has tentatively approved the JV.

Full document: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0154-0049

WestJet's ULCC Swoop will be excluded from this joint venture.

Additionally, 16 of the two airline's takeoff and landing slots at LGA will be divested.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-delt ... ce=twitter
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:35 pm

In light of the low demand out of LGA until probably end of next year, I'd imagine divesting 8 slot pairs is a small price to pay for DL/WS JV here. I don't see either party objecting here.
 
kavok
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:38 pm

Delta stopped serving several Canadian airports this summer (YOW, YEG, etc). Obviously much of that discontinuation was Covid related, but if the routes get added back, I will be curious if they will be flown on DL or WS metal.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:25 pm

DL and WS probably both have far more LGA slots than either carrier knows what to do with these days. Then again, this would provide a rare opportunity for B6, F9, NK and/or WN to permanently add service to LGA. Even G4 might want to throw its hat into the ring for a few LGA slots. Didn't G4 just pick up slots at SNA?
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
cirrusdragoon
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:44 pm

kavok wrote:
Delta stopped serving several Canadian airports this summer (YOW, YEG, etc). Obviously much of that discontinuation was Covid related, but if the routes get added back, I will be curious if they will be flown on DL or WS metal.


It will be interesting to see post pandemic what new air links will be established . It is obvious all this will be re-evaluated now but I just cannot help but reference the previous article mentioning Detroit, Minneapolis/St Paul, Salt Lake City and Seattle Tacoma .... even chicago? https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/d ... 83.article
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:26 am

kavok wrote:
Delta stopped serving several Canadian airports this summer (YOW, YEG, etc). Obviously much of that discontinuation was Covid related, but if the routes get added back, I will be curious if they will be flown on DL or WS metal.


Hopefully we will see Westjet in Detroit now. Possibly on YOW-DTW, YQB-DTW and YYC-DTW
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jimbo737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:40 am

WS will not give up their LGA slots.

Covid won’t last forever. New York is easily the largest O&D Transborder market and a top 5 overall market from YYZ.

WS is not going to walk on NYC if they have any aspirations of increasing their corporate marketshare in, far and away, Canada’s largest market, no matter what they paid for them 8 years ago. It’s not going to happen.

That route will be operated on WS iron.

The slots will come from Delta.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:21 am

jimbo737 wrote:
WS will not give up their LGA slots.

Covid won’t last forever. New York is easily the largest O&D Transborder market and a top 5 overall market from YYZ.

WS is not going to walk on NYC if they have any aspirations of increasing their corporate marketshare in, far and away, Canada’s largest market, no matter what they paid for them 8 years ago. It’s not going to happen.

That route will be operated on WS iron.

The slots will come from Delta.


You’re missing the point of the JV. For all intents and purposes, DL/WS are the same airline between Canada and US. Certainly most (if not all) slots will come from DL, but your premise is on WS keeping NYC.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:31 am

Not as hopeful now but back when the two airlines announced their intentions to form a JV I had my fingers crossed for WS to add cities such as SLC, PDX, and RDU.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:36 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Not as hopeful now but back when the two airlines announced their intentions to form a JV I had my fingers crossed for WS to add cities such as SLC, PDX, and RDU.


WS was operating daily and planning 2x daily from YYC to PDX.
 
umichman
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:40 am

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Delta stopped serving several Canadian airports this summer (YOW, YEG, etc). Obviously much of that discontinuation was Covid related, but if the routes get added back, I will be curious if they will be flown on DL or WS metal.


Hopefully we will see Westjet in Detroit now. Possibly on YOW-DTW, YQB-DTW and YYC-DTW


Don't forget to include YQG-DTW in the mix as well. Definitely lots of potential there :)
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:51 am

I wouldn’t expect to see much from Encore in the US market, smaller stuff I’d imagine remain Delta Connection. As much as CRJs are disliked, people will prefer a 900 over a Q400.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:08 am

I imagine in many ways the DL-WS JV will be in a few ways to leverage the various network/fleet capabilities of each airline.

WS has 736, 73G, 738 (and 7M8) sized aircraft.
DL has a broader portfolio of narrowbody aircraft from CR2 up to 752 to fit appropriate capacity to various route profiles.

I would imagine that WS will fly their metal on some of the "denser" routes like YYZ-ATL/LGA, YVR-LAX/SLC, YYC/YEG-MSP/SLC/DTW with 737s
DL would be a better fit to fly frequency and variety of gauge on routes like YYZ-DTW/MSP (CR9/E75/717/A220/A319), YVR-DTW/MSP/ATL (A321/B752), YYC-ATL (A321/B752)

Not to mention other fringe routes such as smaller Canadian markets into DTW/MSP/SLC and "denser" Canadian markets into ATL to funnel traffic to Florida/Carribean and other sun markets.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:54 am

It wouldn't surprise me if DL would ask WS to add 736 or 73G mainline flights between SEA and YYC well-post-pandemic, just to one-up AS. Westjet also including mainline on the SEA-YVR route isn't too far-fetched. DL did it for a while, pre-pandemic to link YVR with its Asian/European flights.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:10 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if DL would ask WS to add 736 or 73G mainline flights between SEA and YYC well-post-pandemic, just to one-up AS. Westjet also including mainline on the SEA-YVR route isn't too far-fetched. DL did it for a while, pre-pandemic to link YVR with its Asian/European flights.


How does a 736 or 73G “one-up” AS? Just putting mainline on the route doesn’t really do that.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:38 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if DL would ask WS to add 736 or 73G mainline flights between SEA and YYC well-post-pandemic, just to one-up AS. Westjet also including mainline on the SEA-YVR route isn't too far-fetched. DL did it for a while, pre-pandemic to link YVR with its Asian/European flights.


Delta is getting rid of the 73G's. I could see them using A220-300.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:28 am

Anyone know if any routes will be announced especially during this pandemic? Will DL fly LGA-YYZ now due to the slots?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:52 am

I looked through a few articles but didn't see reference to Canadian approval. Had that been granted previously?
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:32 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I imagine in many ways the DL-WS JV will be in a few ways to leverage the various network/fleet capabilities of each airline.

WS has 736, 73G, 738 (and 7M8) sized aircraft.
DL has a broader portfolio of narrowbody aircraft from CR2 up to 752 to fit appropriate capacity to various route profiles.

I would imagine that WS will fly their metal on some of the "denser" routes like YYZ-ATL/LGA, YVR-LAX/SLC, YYC/YEG-MSP/SLC/DTW with 737s
DL would be a better fit to fly frequency and variety of gauge on routes like YYZ-DTW/MSP (CR9/E75/717/A220/A319), YVR-DTW/MSP/ATL (A321/B752), YYC-ATL (A321/B752)

Not to mention other fringe routes such as smaller Canadian markets into DTW/MSP/SLC and "denser" Canadian markets into ATL to funnel traffic to Florida/Carribean and other sun markets.


I doubt SLC will have much play with WS, looking at what DL flights carry barely 94K YVR, 66K YYC and no YEG service.You can argue SLC can be used as a connecting point, however WS serves all major Canada-USA traffic non stop, LAS/PHX/HNL/LAX/PSP.

What would WS gain with SLC that DL isnt already doing? There is not massive O&D either
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:59 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
What would WS gain with SLC that DL isnt already doing? There is not massive O&D either


If you pursue that line of thinking there's seldom a reason to implement JVs, ever: each carrier is already doing what makes sense for its network.

The point of a hub is to aggregate traffic between two points that can't on their own justify non-stops. Pre-covid DL at SLC was running about 280/day flights to a pretty comprehensive destination set for the West and Midwest, plus select Florida. I don't suppose any WestJetters in Calgary would ever want to go to Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, San Francisco, or Tucson?
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:02 pm

umichman wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Delta stopped serving several Canadian airports this summer (YOW, YEG, etc). Obviously much of that discontinuation was Covid related, but if the routes get added back, I will be curious if they will be flown on DL or WS metal.


Hopefully we will see Westjet in Detroit now. Possibly on YOW-DTW, YQB-DTW and YYC-DTW


Don't forget to include YQG-DTW in the mix as well. Definitely lots of potential there :)


I know you meant this as tongue and cheek but why not. Have a bus service 2 or 3 times daily from YQG and downtown Windsor where WS passengers can check in a YQG or downtown and have their bags directed checked onto DL flights at Detroit. I am sure DTW gets a lot of YQG customers going to Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean. Also DTW-YHZ should be back on the table as well.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
What would WS gain with SLC that DL isnt already doing? There is not massive O&D either


If you pursue that line of thinking there's seldom a reason to implement JVs, ever: each carrier is already doing what makes sense for its network.

The point of a hub is to aggregate traffic between two points that can't on their own justify non-stops. Pre-covid DL at SLC was running about 280/day flights to a pretty comprehensive destination set for the West and Midwest, plus select Florida. I don't suppose any WestJetters in Calgary would ever want to go to Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, San Francisco, or Tucson?


The point is DL and WS already have their markets covered, what benefit would WS have by adding SLC that is not already covered by DL ATL/MSP/DTW/NYC? WS already covers the Florida market from YYC/YEG-MCO.

To reiterate, my comment was in reference to the previous post who stated dense markets (SLC) which obviously isn't for Canada, also I didnt mention anything about the JV.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:35 pm

Who is giving up the slots? DL or WS
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:07 pm

As with the JV WS/DL can be treated as one at LGA it really doesn’t matter who is officially giving up the slots.

Having to give up 16 slots isn’t that surprising and was probably expected by DL/WS. WS got their current 16 LGA slots as a result of slot divestitures DL had to make as part of the DL/US LGA/DCA slot swap. It was always highly unlikely that the DOT would essentially undo that divestiture and allow DL to have de facto control over the slots again. Other airlines were very quick to point this out when commenting on the application.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:10 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
WS will not give up their LGA slots.

Covid won’t last forever. New York is easily the largest O&D Transborder market and a top 5 overall market from YYZ.

WS is not going to walk on NYC if they have any aspirations of increasing their corporate marketshare in, far and away, Canada’s largest market, no matter what they paid for them 8 years ago. It’s not going to happen.

That route will be operated on WS iron.

The slots will come from Delta.


You’re missing the point of the JV. For all intents and purposes, DL/WS are the same airline between Canada and US. Certainly most (if not all) slots will come from DL, but your premise is on WS keeping NYC.[/

Correct. The poster doesn’t understand the premise of the JV and that the slots will be given up if they want approval. Basically, the number of slots equal to WS LGA operation prior to the JV will be given up from the collective pool of slots. WS/DL operation at LGA will be equal to Delta ops alone prior to the JV.

Who operates the slots is irrelevant to regulators.

This was widely expected.

I would expect B6 or WN to make a play for these slots.
 
cirrusdragoon
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:18 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I looked through a few articles but didn't see reference to Canadian approval. Had that been granted previously?


That was granted way back in the summer of 2019 , http://westjet.mediaroom.com/2019-06-27 ... nt-venture
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:44 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
What would WS gain with SLC that DL isnt already doing? There is not massive O&D either


If you pursue that line of thinking there's seldom a reason to implement JVs, ever: each carrier is already doing what makes sense for its network.

The point of a hub is to aggregate traffic between two points that can't on their own justify non-stops. Pre-covid DL at SLC was running about 280/day flights to a pretty comprehensive destination set for the West and Midwest, plus select Florida. I don't suppose any WestJetters in Calgary would ever want to go to Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, San Francisco, or Tucson?


The point is DL and WS already have their markets covered, what benefit would WS have by adding SLC that is not already covered by DL ATL/MSP/DTW/NYC? WS already covers the Florida market from YYC/YEG-MCO.

To reiterate, my comment was in reference to the previous post who stated dense markets (SLC) which obviously isn't for Canada, also I didnt mention anything about the JV.


It’s a question of quality of coverage. Does WS capture 100 percent of BNA-YYC traffic with its single nonstop? Of course not. How about RDU-YYC traffic? How about AUS-YYC traffic? Increasing SLC’s desirability as a connecting point on these sorts of traffic flows helps build share without sacrificing yields.
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jimbo737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:03 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Not to mention other fringe routes such as smaller Canadian markets into DTW/MSP/SLC and "denser" Canadian markets into ATL to funnel traffic to Florida/Carribean and other sun markets.



Sun flying to secondary markets in the summer months could be one stop over ATL, but year round, it’ll always be n/s to the places Canadians want to go from Canada.

One stop would be a grossly inferior product. The only way to sell it would be at yields that even SG would have scoffed at.

Turning n/s sun flying from Canada to Florida, Mexico or the Caribbean into “one stop over Atlanta” would be a dream come true for WS’s domestic competitors, existing and new, whose biggest challenge is to figure out what to do with their iron from Oct 15 to May 1 every year.

This would immediately fix their problem.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:10 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Not to mention other fringe routes such as smaller Canadian markets into DTW/MSP/SLC and "denser" Canadian markets into ATL to funnel traffic to Florida/Carribean and other sun markets.



Sun flying to secondary markets in the summer months could be one stop over ATL, but year round, it’ll always be n/s to the places Canadians want to go from Canada.

One stop would be a grossly inferior product. The only way to sell it would be at yields that even SG would have scoffed at.

Turning n/s sun flying from Canada to Florida, Mexico or the Caribbean into “one stop over Atlanta” would be a dream come true for WS’s domestic competitors, existing and new, whose biggest challenge is to figure out what to do with their iron from Oct 15 to May 1 every year.

This would immediately fix their problem.


It’s not necessarily about replacing nonstop with one stop but rather about traffic flows for which WS doesn’t presently compete. YOW-TPA/FLL, for instance, apparently has a fair amount of seasonal demand but WS doesn’t fly it. The JV allows flexibility for something like a sub-daily flight with supplemental connecting options over US hubs. Remember that while a lot of these connections are in principle available over YYZ, the transborder connecting experience at YYZ T-3 isn’t competitive with T-1 or US hubs.
Last edited by Cubsrule on Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jimbo737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:10 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I imagine in many ways the DL-WS JV will be in a few ways to leverage the various network/fleet capabilities of each airline.

WS has 736, 73G, 738 (and 7M8) sized aircraft.
DL has a broader portfolio of narrowbody aircraft from CR2 up to 752 to fit appropriate capacity to various route profiles.

I would imagine that WS will fly their metal on some of the "denser" routes like YYZ-ATL/LGA, YVR-LAX/SLC, YYC/YEG-MSP/SLC/DTW with 737s
DL would be a better fit to fly frequency and variety of gauge on routes like YYZ-DTW/MSP (CR9/E75/717/A220/A319), YVR-DTW/MSP/ATL (A321/B752), YYC-ATL (A321/B752),

Not to mention other fringe routes such as smaller Canadian markets into DTW/MSP/SLC and "denser" Canadian markets into ATL to funnel traffic to Florida/Carribean and other sun markets.


I doubt SLC will have much play with WS, looking at what DL flights carry barely 94K YVR, 66K YYC and no YEG service.You can argue SLC can be used as a connecting point, however WS serves all major Canada-USA traffic non stop, LAS/PHX/HNL/LAX/PSP.

What would WS gain with SLC that DL isnt already doing? There is not massive O&D either


Pre open skies in 1995, Delta ran 3-4 757’s daily from YYC to SLC, connecting into their network. That’s how you flew to PHX.

It’s all n/s now on WS and highly profitable flying. Pre covid, WJ operated as many as 4x daily YYC-PHX, not to mention, LAS, PSP etc, as well as n/s from YEG, YLW, YQR, YXE, YWG, YVR. Closing Pandora’s Box is not an option.

That being said, there is a significant Mormon population in Southern Alberta. There’ll always be O&D between SLC and YYC.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
What would WS gain with SLC that DL isnt already doing? There is not massive O&D either


If you pursue that line of thinking there's seldom a reason to implement JVs, ever: each carrier is already doing what makes sense for its network.

The point of a hub is to aggregate traffic between two points that can't on their own justify non-stops. Pre-covid DL at SLC was running about 280/day flights to a pretty comprehensive destination set for the West and Midwest, plus select Florida. I don't suppose any WestJetters in Calgary would ever want to go to Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, San Francisco, or Tucson?


Yes, they travel to those places, and other than Tucson and Tampa, they go non stop profitably in the winter. Reverting to one stop would be allow others to launch vastly superior non stop offerings.

For the record, pre covid, WS should have already been offering YYC - TUC 2x weekly in the winter. No brainer.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:18 pm

Polot wrote:
As with the JV WS/DL can be treated as one at LGA it really doesn’t matter who is officially giving up the slots.

Having to give up 16 slots isn’t that surprising and was probably expected by DL/WS. WS got their current 16 LGA slots as a result of slot divestitures DL had to make as part of the DL/US LGA/DCA slot swap. It was always highly unlikely that the DOT would essentially undo that divestiture and allow DL to have de facto control over the slots again. Other airlines were very quick to point this out when commenting on the application.


WS paid about $20m for the LGA slots at the auction.

WS will quit flying YYZ-LGA when UA quits flying LAX-SFO. That’s how important that route is to their network and the ability to capture Canadian corporate accounts. Those same road warriors want to fly n/s to the sun on their WJ Miles.

It may be hard to believe, but just as Americans tend to prefer their domestic carriers, so to do Canadians. And perhaps even harder to believe is that most Canadians consider the quality of service of Cdn carriers to be superior to US carriers. Both AC and WS have had IFE at every seat for a decade or more.

The DL JV will open up a host of markets that don’t warrant WS n/s service, be they Transborder or international, esp to South America. Converting WS Transborder / sun flying into US hub flying would destroy WS within 18 months. It was not, nor is it an option.
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:43 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
What would WS gain with SLC that DL isnt already doing? There is not massive O&D either

In fact, this will be an underlying theme for WS with almost every DL hub. It is inevitable that the same old Aeromexico story gets repeated all over again. A slew of new routes to DL hubs will be announced, only to be pulled back altogether in a few weeks.. As others pointed out, re-routing leisure destinations through DL hubs is not going to work, as long as AC, TS and WG are around to offer numerous daily non-stop options.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:56 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Polot wrote:
As with the JV WS/DL can be treated as one at LGA it really doesn’t matter who is officially giving up the slots.

Having to give up 16 slots isn’t that surprising and was probably expected by DL/WS. WS got their current 16 LGA slots as a result of slot divestitures DL had to make as part of the DL/US LGA/DCA slot swap. It was always highly unlikely that the DOT would essentially undo that divestiture and allow DL to have de facto control over the slots again. Other airlines were very quick to point this out when commenting on the application.


WS paid about $20m for the LGA slots at the auction.

WS will quit flying YYZ-LGA when UA quits flying LAX-SFO. That’s how important that route is to their network and the ability to capture Canadian corporate accounts. Those same road warriors want to fly n/s to the sun on their WJ Miles.

It may be hard to believe, but just as Americans tend to prefer their domestic carriers, so to do Canadians. And perhaps even harder to believe is that most Canadians consider the quality of service of Cdn carriers to be superior to US carriers. Both AC and WS have had IFE at every seat for a decade or more.

The DL JV will open up a host of markets that don’t warrant WS n/s service, be they Transborder or international, esp to South America. Converting WS Transborder / sun flying into US hub flying would destroy WS within 18 months. It was not, nor is it an option.

I don’t expect WS to leave LGA. But the fact is DL+WS together must find 16 slots to cut. This is not something negotiable or something that can be ignored. With the JV in place what is DL’s slot and what is WS’s slot becomes much more fluid, as they can coordinate and work together so they will trade slots around with each to make what they want work best. WS might end up flying with former DL slots while DL flights use former WS slots. And somebody else will be getting 16 new slots that use to belong to DL+WS.

The fact that WS paid so much for them is offset by the fact that DL+WS will be compensated for them by the winner of the divestiture.
Last edited by Polot on Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:56 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if DL would ask WS to add 736 or 73G mainline flights between SEA and YYC well-post-pandemic, just to one-up AS. Westjet also including mainline on the SEA-YVR route isn't too far-fetched. DL did it for a while, pre-pandemic to link YVR with its Asian/European flights.


How does a 736 or 73G “one-up” AS? Just putting mainline on the route doesn’t really do that.


Maybe not...but it could force AS to reinstate mainline on the SEA-YVR route, since they are currently E-175's. Just a thought. Or they could have WS come in to saturate the market.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't mind seeing WS at SEA.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:55 pm

I would like to see Porter get some of these slots. They can acquire them, then lease them out untll preclearance at YTZ is operational.

How will these slots be allocated? To the highest bidder or the carriers with the smallest market share?
 
YYZORD
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:57 pm

Could PD get those 16 slots previously used by WS? They can do YUL/YOW-LGA for now till pre clearance opens at YTZ to do YTZ-LGA
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:22 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Could PD get those 16 slots previously used by WS? They can do YUL/YOW-LGA for now till pre clearance opens at YTZ to do YTZ-LGA


Any idea when U.S. CBP Preclearance does open at YTZ? Such a facility has also been in the works at YQB for years now AFAIK.

I can't believe I forgot about PD. Then again, I've never had the pleasure of flying them either. I bet they would love to get some LGA slots - and PD would actually restore healthy competition to the New York City-Toronto market. Any of the U.S. carriers I mentioned in a previous post wanting these divested slots (B6, F9, G4, NK and WN) will probably just add redundant frequencies to Florida, offering no remedy to a less competitive U.S.-Canada marketplace...
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tphuang
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:59 pm

It would be great if PD can get those slots. They really provide a great option on EWR-YTZ. I think LGA-YTZ would make a killing. I think a bigger concern right now is whether or not PD will get through this in tact.

Amongst US LCCs, I'd think WN is the favourite to get a good chunk of slots if they are allowed to bid. They have the deepest pocket. G4 might find LGA costs too high. NK would love to get more LGA slots if the price is right. I'm not sure if F9 will fork out the money for it. B6 should be very aggressive bidder too. Although depending on the AA partnership, they might not need additional slots.

I wouldn't think all the slots go to Florida. There are a lot of WN focus cities that could use additional LGA flights. B6 wouldn't use the slots for just Florida stuff either. I could see JetBlue try YYZ or YUL.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:07 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Could PD get those 16 slots previously used by WS? They can do YUL/YOW-LGA for now till pre clearance opens at YTZ to do YTZ-LGA


The slots given up will not necessarily be the WS slots. They will more then likely be DL slots. It’s stipulated that the slots given up will be within 30 mins either side of the WS slots currently allocated.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:12 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Could PD get those 16 slots previously used by WS? They can do YUL/YOW-LGA for now till pre clearance opens at YTZ to do YTZ-LGA


The slots given up will not necessarily be the WS slots. They will more then likely be DL slots. It’s stipulated that the slots given up will be within 30 mins either side of the WS slots currently allocated.


With regard to PD, it’s probably more important that the slots be spread out throughout the day than that they be at certain times. The ease of using YTZ, which cannot possibly be understated even though UPExpress has made YYZ much better, simply cannot be understated. Heck, I’ve contemplated self-connecting to PD at a US station versus a nonstop to YYZ.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:51 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
WS will not give up their LGA slots.

Covid won’t last forever. New York is easily the largest O&D Transborder market and a top 5 overall market from YYZ.

WS is not going to walk on NYC if they have any aspirations of increasing their corporate marketshare in, far and away, Canada’s largest market, no matter what they paid for them 8 years ago. It’s not going to happen.

That route will be operated on WS iron.

The slots will come from Delta.


I agree with you here. I don't see WS giving up their 16 slots at LGA. They will most likely come from DL.

jbs2886 wrote:
You’re missing the point of the JV. For all intents and purposes, DL/WS are the same airline between Canada and US. Certainly most (if not all) slots will come from DL, but your premise is on WS keeping NYC.


jfklganyc wrote:

Correct. The poster doesn’t understand the premise of the JV and that the slots will be given up if they want approval. Basically, the number of slots equal to WS LGA operation prior to the JV will be given up from the collective pool of slots. WS/DL operation at LGA will be equal to Delta ops alone prior to the JV.

Who operates the slots is irrelevant to regulators.

This was widely expected.

I would expect B6 or WN to make a play for these slots.


Fairly certain jimbo understands how a JV works. WS will most likely make it a point with DL that they are keeping their 16 slots at LGA. So the divestiture will come from DL, not WS.
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Dominion301
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:58 am

klm617 wrote:
umichman wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Hopefully we will see Westjet in Detroit now. Possibly on YOW-DTW, YQB-DTW and YYC-DTW


Don't forget to include YQG-DTW in the mix as well. Definitely lots of potential there :)


I know you meant this as tongue and cheek but why not. Have a bus service 2 or 3 times daily from YQG and downtown Windsor where WS passengers can check in a YQG or downtown and have their bags directed checked onto DL flights at Detroit. I am sure DTW gets a lot of YQG customers going to Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean. Also DTW-YHZ should be back on the table as well.


Doesn’t Robert Q already offer Windsor-DTW shuttle service?...or at least in “normal” times?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:03 am

Whiteguy wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Could PD get those 16 slots previously used by WS? They can do YUL/YOW-LGA for now till pre clearance opens at YTZ to do YTZ-LGA


The slots given up will not necessarily be the WS slots. They will more then likely be DL slots. It’s stipulated that the slots given up will be within 30 mins either side of the WS slots currently allocated.


Ironically the slot divestiture reduces the likelihood of DL ever bringing YOW-LGA back as DL will have a smaller slot pool...unless they cut elsewhere.

Who knows what the future holds at this point. It sure would be nice to see DL back at all of the Canadian airports they ceased flying to this year by say 2023.

PD will probably only go after LGA slots if they can get them for next to nothing as a new entrant. They’re certainly saving a lot of $ right now by not flying.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:07 am

WS operating YYC-SEa on 737’s?

There isn’t a huge community of interest between Calgary and Seattle, (let alone Alberta / Sask / Manitoba), so the O&D probably doesn’t warrant 130-160 seats.

Other than Trans pacific, what does DL offer out of SEA that WS doesn’t already operate n/s? Spokane, Medford, Eugene, central California etc? These aren’t markets that warrant 737 type feed from YYC over SEA. No one is going to backhaul from BC to Alberts to fly to SEA and most beyond Transborder destinations.

Like PDX, if anything, SEA is a 78 seat market for WS.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:31 am

Dominion301 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
umichman wrote:

Don't forget to include YQG-DTW in the mix as well. Definitely lots of potential there :)


I know you meant this as tongue and cheek but why not. Have a bus service 2 or 3 times daily from YQG and downtown Windsor where WS passengers can check in a YQG or downtown and have their bags directed checked onto DL flights at Detroit. I am sure DTW gets a lot of YQG customers going to Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean. Also DTW-YHZ should be back on the table as well.


Doesn’t Robert Q already offer Windsor-DTW shuttle service?...or at least in “normal” times?


Yes but I mean a bus service that is marketed in the WS and DL system as though it were a connecting flight.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Dominion301
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:42 pm

klm617 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I know you meant this as tongue and cheek but why not. Have a bus service 2 or 3 times daily from YQG and downtown Windsor where WS passengers can check in a YQG or downtown and have their bags directed checked onto DL flights at Detroit. I am sure DTW gets a lot of YQG customers going to Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean. Also DTW-YHZ should be back on the table as well.


Doesn’t Robert Q already offer Windsor-DTW shuttle service?...or at least in “normal” times?


Yes but I mean a bus service that is marketed in the WS and DL system as though it were a connecting flight.


I doubt that'll ever happen as it would add costs to the airlines without any incremental revenue. The drive from Windsor to DTW is easy-peasy. Cross the bridge and hop on I-94. I'm still amazed at the fact WS have never started YQG-YYZ 2x daily on the Encore DH4s.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5287
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:48 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
WS operating YYC-SEa on 737’s?

There isn’t a huge community of interest between Calgary and Seattle, (let alone Alberta / Sask / Manitoba), so the O&D probably doesn’t warrant 130-160 seats.

Other than Trans pacific, what does DL offer out of SEA that WS doesn’t already operate n/s? Spokane, Medford, Eugene, central California etc? These aren’t markets that warrant 737 type feed from YYC over SEA. No one is going to backhaul from BC to Alberts to fly to SEA and most beyond Transborder destinations.

Like PDX, if anything, SEA is a 78 seat market for WS.


You might be right...but never say never. Didn't AS fly 737's between SEA-YYC (or was that LAX-YYC). I always did wonder why there was such a mainline market between YVR and SEA.
 
gsg013
Posts: 574
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:12 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I imagine in many ways the DL-WS JV will be in a few ways to leverage the various network/fleet capabilities of each airline.

WS has 736, 73G, 738 (and 7M8) sized aircraft.
DL has a broader portfolio of narrowbody aircraft from CR2 up to 752 to fit appropriate capacity to various route profiles.

I would imagine that WS will fly their metal on some of the "denser" routes like YYZ-ATL/LGA, YVR-LAX/SLC, YYC/YEG-MSP/SLC/DTW with 737s
DL would be a better fit to fly frequency and variety of gauge on routes like YYZ-DTW/MSP (CR9/E75/717/A220/A319), YVR-DTW/MSP/ATL (A321/B752), YYC-ATL (A321/B752)

Not to mention other fringe routes such as smaller Canadian markets into DTW/MSP/SLC and "denser" Canadian markets into ATL to funnel traffic to Florida/Carribean and other sun markets.


What about adding mainline to some outstations for West Jet at DL focus cities? ie.. I believe Westjet is flying a prop plane currently BNA-YYZ at 641 miles that is a pretty long flight for a prop-plane.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8498
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Re: Delta/WestJet Joint Venture Tentatively Approved

Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:22 pm

gsg013 wrote:

What about adding mainline to some outstations for West Jet at DL focus cities? ie.. I believe Westjet is flying a prop plane currently BNA-YYZ at 641 miles that is a pretty long flight for a prop-plane.


One might hope the base of DL travelers in BNA could support upgauging in that example -- but I don't have numbers. Then it's already a route with a codeshare so one has to ask how the JV is really going to increase demand.

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