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TC957
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:39 am

I'd love it if WN says to Boeing where they can stick their useless grounded MAX's and be the launch customer for a couple of hundred A220-500's. As has been said, there will be no 737's after the MAX and Airbus can have the A225 out way before any Boeing NMA.
 
mileduets
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:01 am

Although A-220 models are built in Alabama, they will not be considered US planes by a big part the flying public. Southwest and Alaska built up their marketing image for people with an ingrained "if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going" attitude. Alaska tried it out with a few Airbuses, but might move back to an all Boeing fleet after all, as it seems.
 
seabiscuit
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:13 am

Having an only Boeing fleet has many cost benefits. However, having one fleet comes with significant business risk if the MAX fleet is ever grounded again. I think SWA is going down this route to reduce business risk.
Seabiscuit
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:23 am

TC957 wrote:
I'd love it if WN says to Boeing where they can stick their useless grounded MAX's and be the launch customer for a couple of hundred A220-500's. As has been said, there will be no 737's after the MAX and Airbus can have the A225 out way before any Boeing NMA.


What a great idea... It's clear that you don't realize that OEM support is an ongoing element throughout the ownership of an aircraft. The old saying of "anyone out for revenge had better dig two graves" applies here. Unless Southwest wants to start manufacturing their own parts (good luck) or turn to the black market like some less than reputable airlines, they'll make no such statement to Boeing.
 
Noshow
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:31 am

This is business as usual. Another day in the office. If you operate a single type fleet manufacturers might just take your business as given. No rebates. This is what they seem to want to soften.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's clear that you don't realize that OEM support is an ongoing element throughout the ownership of an aircraft (...) Unless Southwest wants to start manufacturing their own parts (good luck) or turn to the black market like some less than reputable airlines, they'll make no such statement to Boeing.


What's clear is that you don't realise the legal implications. Airliner (and engine) manufacturers have a legal obligation, as defined by aviation regulations, to provide support for their aircraft, regardless of whether the operator tells the manufacturer to "f you and the f-ing horse you rode in on" which, in the case of every Max owner and operator, would be a perfectly logical and understandable position to take. As for obtaining spares, there's a phalanx of legal and perfectly viable options for securing the vast majority of parts from independent sources. And where that's not possible, we're back at the aforementioned legal obligations.
Signature. You just read one.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:12 am

B777LRF wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It's clear that you don't realize that OEM support is an ongoing element throughout the ownership of an aircraft (...) Unless Southwest wants to start manufacturing their own parts (good luck) or turn to the black market like some less than reputable airlines, they'll make no such statement to Boeing.


What's clear is that you don't realise the legal implications. Airliner (and engine) manufacturers have a legal obligation, as defined by aviation regulations, to provide support for their aircraft, regardless of whether the operator tells the manufacturer to "f you and the f-ing horse you rode in on" which, in the case of every Max owner and operator, would be a perfectly logical and understandable position to take. As for obtaining spares, there's a phalanx of legal and perfectly viable options for securing the vast majority of parts from independent sources. And where that's not possible, we're back at the aforementioned legal obligations.


No, they do not. See Airbus and Concorde and Boeing and the MD-80 as examples of that.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:17 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
The MAX event has shown having all of your eggs in one companies basket is inherently risky. Just from a good corporate governance and ability to operate no matter what unforeseeable issues occur they would be smart to have a goal of a 50-50 Airbus & Boeing fleet. What if the issues with the MAX and the findings had resulted in all Boeing AC grounded and Boeing having to re-certify as a FAA approved company?


Would you make the same recommendation to Spirit, Frontier, and JetBlue?



Absolutely, once you are large enough and mature enough as a company that should be a consideration. SWA certianly fits that., the others are probably not there yet.
 
airboeingbus
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:26 am

mileduets wrote:
Although A-220 models are built in Alabama, they will not be considered US planes by a big part the flying public. Southwest and Alaska built up their marketing image for people with an ingrained "if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going" attitude. Alaska tried it out with a few Airbuses, but might move back to an all Boeing fleet after all, as it seems.


99.9% of passengers couldn’t care less who makes their plane or the country it was manufactured. If you asked most people they couldn’t even tell you what plane they where on. People care about 2 things price and schedule that’s it! My parents who I regard as one of the most patriotic “Buy American” types around flew to us on a JetBlue A321, all they could talk about was how good a flight it was.
 
Galore
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:52 am

nm2582 wrote:
I don't see them flying anything but a 737 derivative for quite some time.

That said, I kind of wonder about a strategy where they start a new, separate network in (for example) Europe or South America on the same basic concept as the US network (all one aircraft type, etc.) and when they hit critical mass, then establish a new "division" that flies long range aircraft to bridge/connect the separated networks (thus boosting traffic on both isolated networks). For example - 737 networks in the US and Europe, and then a dedicated 787 operation to bridge the two networks.

Just random, uninformed, "think different" speculation.


Good luck starting a new airline in Europe, where real, bookable fares are in the $10 price bucket and not the $200 Southwest “specials”.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:53 am

nm2582 wrote:
That said, I kind of wonder about a strategy where they start a new, separate network in (for example) Europe or South America on the same basic concept as the US network (all one aircraft type, etc.) and when they hit critical mass, then establish a new "division" that flies long range aircraft to bridge/connect the separated networks (thus boosting traffic on both isolated networks). For example - 737 networks in the US and Europe, and then a dedicated 787 operation to bridge the two networks.

Just random, uninformed, "think different" speculation.


If anything they’d probably end up buying/merging with a foreign airline. That being said the cross border ownership rules aren’t simple, so without legal changes, this is unlikely.
 
11C
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:14 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
Within a few years they will have 220 on property, guaranteed.


What's a 'few years', and what do you suggest as a friendly wager?

Airbus doesn't have a high volume manufacturing operation (not even Mirabel + Mobile), and Southwest isn't going to mess around with another type and pilot contract negotiations for one a month.


"Never" and "guaranteed." I've heard these terms thrown around for years in this industry. When you talk to the people who actually make these decisions, they don't seem to use either word very often.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:42 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
No, they do not. See Airbus and Concorde and Boeing and the MD-80 as examples of that.


Yes, they do. Boeing are still providing support for the MD-80, as witnessed by the fact the type is still operating. Concorde support was discontinued in mutual agreement with the two operators.
Signature. You just read one.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:22 pm

Bombardier made a great plane, I would love for Southwest to snag it as we fly fly them 90% of the time. With the kids grown and no longer tagging along, the knowing that one side is only 2 seats is appealing for their boarding policy. No third wheel in our row.
 
JHCRJ700
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:05 pm

mileduets wrote:
Although A-220 models are built in Alabama, they will not be considered US planes by a big part the flying public. Southwest and Alaska built up their marketing image for people with an ingrained "if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going" attitude. Alaska tried it out with a few Airbuses, but might move back to an all Boeing fleet after all, as it seems.


I really think most, especially Southwest's clientele, could care less about where the planes are manufactured. Ticket price is all that matters to them. With the MAX fiasco some people might pay a little more attention for a few months, but after that that I can't see anyone caring.

Alaska's dumping of the Airbus fleet has nothing to do with appealing to the "if it aint Boeing, I aint going crowd." They're trying to streamline their fleets and simplify their cost structure. It will be interesting to see what they do with the A321NEOs though.
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texl1649
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:26 pm

It would be interesting but I do suspect it’s unlikely at this time. The issues I see are (a) cost, and (b) SWA/Boeing’s ability to fill gaps with...white tails at a remarkable price point.

On cost, I don’t see any poster noting that Airbus has indicated Airbus Canada is now on their own for financing/operating cost reductions. The A220/C-series has never met an annual production goal, and Airbus has said the costs are out of line as recently as this year. The production rate, as discussed, makes zero sense to lower costs much, especially across two sites. It’s in the first few years that production costs are easily bent downward (we could cite old 787 discussions on this). It’s been flying since 2013, and in service for nearly 5 years now. Airbus Canada can’t simply ‘hope’ to drop costs on it significantly to bring on a huge new customer, and then finally double or triple output. Airbus Canada has 500 or so on order to deliver today, and is unlikely to hit 40 deliveries this year (have they hit 25 yet?). No matter how ‘neat’ it would be to hear of a substantive SWA order, they can’t deliver any to them in real numbers until probably 2026 or after, and certainly can’t afford to lose money on any more orders, trying to match 737 pricing SWA gets, net, for service/training etc.

On the white tail 737’s sitting about (and SWA’s grounded fleet), the capacity to deliver, cheaply, a bunch of planes if SWA needs/wants capacity, without disrupting the training/staffing/operations of a new type is immense. Boeing also has the services discount card they could play, as well (giving an outsize impact vs. any per frame cost.).

Now, if SWA were setting up a new operation somewhere, maybe (like South America). But they’re not a low cost carrier any longer, in truth, and aren’t run by a real market creator like Breeze etc. Further, even Neeleman I think would be hesitant to really launch an all new brand at this time. There isn’t much real space in the market today.

However, the fascinating ‘what if’ to me remains that should Airbus Canada dig out somehow from their present production situation, financial situation, and then certify/create the A225 as a simple stretch, that is the plane which I think would be the ‘best fit’ for SWA (200 seater, 4 flight attendants, range unlikely to be an issue for them).

https://simpleflying.com/air-france-airbus-a220-500/
 
freakyrat
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:58 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
If A220 is 20,000 pounds lighter than MAX7, and I am not positive of exact amount, and LAX charges $8.20 per 1000# on landing fee.. that saves $164 per flight plus fuel savings... it all makes a difference when multiplied by thousands of flights. There are also certain cities that just are not going to fill 175 seats all day long. CRP HRL AMA LBB MAF and others come to mind. Plus I believe that the 220 could bring more cities and routes in to play. EYW EUG DRO LNK SUX all come to mind with 3-4 flights a day.... heck even SWF


Old Airtran Cities BMI and FNT. Cities in the Dakota's XWA, GFK, BIL, MOT, RAP to name a few. Midwest Cities SBN, FWA, and DAY especially connecting the first two cities to DEN for better westbound connections with a lower cost airplane.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:11 pm

Refresh my memory but Alaska is dumping all their Airbus aircraft to stay with Boeing..WN will stay with Boeing.
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lostsound
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:15 pm

WN says they’re considering airbus every time they order. We’ve seen this thread a hundred times lol. Every time they just want a better deal on 737s, nothing to see here.

I do agree the A220 would work wonders for them, but single fleet type is a huge part of their strategy. They’re likely to wait for NSA as a replacement to their 737 fleet.
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:57 pm

lostsound wrote:
WN says they’re considering airbus every time they order. We’ve seen this thread a hundred times lol. Every time they just want a better deal on 737s, nothing to see here.

I do agree the A220 would work wonders for them, but single fleet type is a huge part of their strategy. They’re likely to wait for NSA as a replacement to their 737 fleet.


Agree. 737-10 is their next new model if they add a new model. The WN model works. The 73G worked and works when all other majors all but abandoned the A319 and 73G.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:03 pm

I'm sure the E195 is on the table too, if the price is right. Looking at their recent addition of cities and all the potential new cities available, I believe adding a new aircraft in a smaller size A220 / E195 is more beneficial than larger with an A321.
 
dispatchguy
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:05 pm

They dumped the Boeing/Jeppesen flight planning system that I think they've had since the beginning. I'm not sure when FlightKeys from Austria is slated to come on line. Granted, a flight planning system is not a line of aircraft, but, it shows that SWA can think of solutions other than Boeing.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:07 pm

airzona11 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
WN says they’re considering airbus every time they order. We’ve seen this thread a hundred times lol. Every time they just want a better deal on 737s, nothing to see here.

I do agree the A220 would work wonders for them, but single fleet type is a huge part of their strategy. They’re likely to wait for NSA as a replacement to their 737 fleet.


Agree. 737-10 is their next new model if they add a new model. The WN model works. The 73G worked and works when all other majors all but abandoned the A319 and 73G.

United didn't abandon neither the 319 nor 73G, in fact they even took on used frames.

I'd like to see SWA with 8/10 MAXs Along side both A220s, but I still think it's all a ploy to get a better bargain for MAX7s. WN is too stingy to add another aircraft, much less another aircraft with a totally different engine.
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LAOCA
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:39 pm

jplatts wrote:
The 737 MAX 7's successor would probably have enough range to be able to reach AUS, DAL, GUM, HOU, and MCI nonstop from Hawaii as
(a) HNL-AUS/DAL/GUM/HOU/MCI are all within a 4,000 mi radius of HNL,
(b) the published range of the Boeing 737 MAX 7 is 4,430 mi, and
(c) the range of 737-700-sized aircraft has increased from 2,595 mi with the 737-300 to 3,461 mi with the 737-700 to 4,430 mi with the 737 MAX 7.


I agree with this. Imagine if the grounding had taken place at a time when the fleet was largely MAX. That would have been the end of WN.

A single type makes sense for a smaller airline. When you get into the 100s of airplanes it doesn't cost much more to have another type. Even in the 170+ seat range at this point.
 
nine4nine
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:41 pm

airzona11 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
WN says they’re considering airbus every time they order. We’ve seen this thread a hundred times lol. Every time they just want a better deal on 737s, nothing to see here.

I do agree the A220 would work wonders for them, but single fleet type is a huge part of their strategy. They’re likely to wait for NSA as a replacement to their 737 fleet.


Agree. 737-10 is their next new model if they add a new model. The WN model works. The 73G worked and works when all other majors all but abandoned the A319 and 73G.



But......unlike the previous dances with Airbus, Gary specifically said they need a “smaller” airframe. With MAX7 on order already this is a present tense statement meaning outside of anything that has already been ordered.

I believe this time is different.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:45 pm

nine4nine wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
WN says they’re considering airbus every time they order. We’ve seen this thread a hundred times lol. Every time they just want a better deal on 737s, nothing to see here.

I do agree the A220 would work wonders for them, but single fleet type is a huge part of their strategy. They’re likely to wait for NSA as a replacement to their 737 fleet.


Agree. 737-10 is their next new model if they add a new model. The WN model works. The 73G worked and works when all other majors all but abandoned the A319 and 73G.



But......unlike the previous dances with Airbus, Gary specifically said they need a “smaller” airframe. With MAX7 on order already this is a present tense statement meaning outside of anything that has already been ordered.

I believe this time is different.


As stated by others earlier, the pilots would still demand 737 pay rates. That doesn't work for an A220 or E190. WN pilots are just about the best there is when it comes to getting what they want.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:59 pm

texl1649 wrote:
It would be interesting but I do suspect it’s unlikely at this time. The issues I see are (a) cost, and (b) SWA/Boeing’s ability to fill gaps with...white tails at a remarkable price point.

On cost, I don’t see any poster noting that Airbus has indicated Airbus Canada is now on their own for financing/operating cost reductions. The A220/C-series has never met an annual production goal, and Airbus has said the costs are out of line as recently as this year. The production rate, as discussed, makes zero sense to lower costs much, especially across two sites. It’s in the first few years that production costs are easily bent downward (we could cite old 787 discussions on this). It’s been flying since 2013, and in service for nearly 5 years now. Airbus Canada can’t simply ‘hope’ to drop costs on it significantly to bring on a huge new customer, and then finally double or triple output. Airbus Canada has 500 or so on order to deliver today, and is unlikely to hit 40 deliveries this year (have they hit 25 yet?). No matter how ‘neat’ it would be to hear of a substantive SWA order, they can’t deliver any to them in real numbers until probably 2026 or after, and certainly can’t afford to lose money on any more orders, trying to match 737 pricing SWA gets, net, for service/training etc.


Concerning the deliveries of A220's, as of September 30, 2020 Airbus Canada had delivered 18 aircraft and seem to be on a pace to finish the year at around 25~30. The peak year of deliveries from the YMX plant was 48 in 2019, which amounts to 4 per month. In total, Airbus Canada has delivered 123 A220's over 4 3/4 years of production. Airbus Canada currently has a 519 A220's remaining in their order backlog, or 5.4 years IF both YMX and BFM were building at the 2019 YMX rate of 4 aircraft per month (unlikely).

However, if you look at the A220 order book, somewhere between 150 to 200 orders seem "squishy", especially the 60 slated for Breeze (who might not answer the bell due to the pandemic), as well as large open orders from leasing companies (who are also struggling to survive these tough times). That could possibly open up a production window in the 2024-5 timeframe? Anything's possible, I imagine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... deliveries
 
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Revelation
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:22 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
WN demands for a small training cost sent Boeing into subservient behaviour for them and they cut corners which ended with many dead and billions lost.

This is a pretty weak narrative, IMO. The fact is back in 2011 Boeing had nothing else on offer other than MAX, and even that was pulled together at the last minute to try to keep AA's business, not WN's. Any fault in MAX's design is on Boeing. It's up to Boeing to produce a safe plane.

TC957 wrote:
I'd love it if WN says to Boeing where they can stick their useless grounded MAX's and be the launch customer for a couple of hundred A220-500's. As has been said, there will be no 737's after the MAX and Airbus can have the A225 out way before any Boeing NMA.

Thing is, WN already took Boeing's gelt for MAX compensation in 2019, there's no walking away.

Ref: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/12/southwe ... oyees.html

texl1649 wrote:
It would be interesting but I do suspect it’s unlikely at this time. The issues I see are (a) cost, and (b) SWA/Boeing’s ability to fill gaps with...white tails at a remarkable price point.

On cost, I don’t see any poster noting that Airbus has indicated Airbus Canada is now on their own for financing/operating cost reductions. The A220/C-series has never met an annual production goal, and Airbus has said the costs are out of line as recently as this year. The production rate, as discussed, makes zero sense to lower costs much, especially across two sites. It’s in the first few years that production costs are easily bent downward (we could cite old 787 discussions on this). It’s been flying since 2013, and in service for nearly 5 years now. Airbus Canada can’t simply ‘hope’ to drop costs on it significantly to bring on a huge new customer, and then finally double or triple output. Airbus Canada has 500 or so on order to deliver today, and is unlikely to hit 40 deliveries this year (have they hit 25 yet?). No matter how ‘neat’ it would be to hear of a substantive SWA order, they can’t deliver any to them in real numbers until probably 2026 or after, and certainly can’t afford to lose money on any more orders, trying to match 737 pricing SWA gets, net, for service/training etc.

On the white tail 737’s sitting about (and SWA’s grounded fleet), the capacity to deliver, cheaply, a bunch of planes if SWA needs/wants capacity, without disrupting the training/staffing/operations of a new type is immense. Boeing also has the services discount card they could play, as well (giving an outsize impact vs. any per frame cost.).

Now, if SWA were setting up a new operation somewhere, maybe (like South America). But they’re not a low cost carrier any longer, in truth, and aren’t run by a real market creator like Breeze etc. Further, even Neeleman I think would be hesitant to really launch an all new brand at this time. There isn’t much real space in the market today.

However, the fascinating ‘what if’ to me remains that should Airbus Canada dig out somehow from their present production situation, financial situation, and then certify/create the A225 as a simple stretch, that is the plane which I think would be the ‘best fit’ for SWA (200 seater, 4 flight attendants, range unlikely to be an issue for them).

https://simpleflying.com/air-france-airbus-a220-500/

Good post. The problem is the idea of Airbus Canada having to make a go of it on its own with a low production rate and a lot of highly discounted frames to produce does not produce the kind of revenue needed to finance an A225. Now in the current climate Airbus is trying to find a way for the workforce to take 15,000 or so headcount reduction ( ref: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/30/business ... index.html ). I doubt Airbus will be sending money to build a new model in Canada any time soon, they won't want to deal with the repercussions. I doubt we will see any such model in the next three years, yet WN just said they will make a decision next year.
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DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:23 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

Agree. 737-10 is their next new model if they add a new model. The WN model works. The 73G worked and works when all other majors all but abandoned the A319 and 73G.



But......unlike the previous dances with Airbus, Gary specifically said they need a “smaller” airframe. With MAX7 on order already this is a present tense statement meaning outside of anything that has already been ordered.

I believe this time is different.


As stated by others earlier, the pilots would still demand 737 pay rates. That doesn't work for an A220 or E190. WN pilots are just about the best there is when it comes to getting what they want.

The pay scale worked when they flew the 122 seat 737-200/500. I believe it can work for a 130 seat aircraft.
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:35 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
nine4nine wrote:


But......unlike the previous dances with Airbus, Gary specifically said they need a “smaller” airframe. With MAX7 on order already this is a present tense statement meaning outside of anything that has already been ordered.

I believe this time is different.


As stated by others earlier, the pilots would still demand 737 pay rates. That doesn't work for an A220 or E190. WN pilots are just about the best there is when it comes to getting what they want.

The pay scale worked when they flew the 122 seat 737-200/500. I believe it can work for a 130 seat aircraft.


I’m guessing WN would have 140-145 seats if B6 is getting 140 in their A223s. Size, capability, revenue, etc is about the same as a -700 it would replace/augment. And there would be no need for a lower pay scale imo, just as they have had no difference between -300/-700/-800/M7/M8 pay.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:37 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
nine4nine wrote:


But......unlike the previous dances with Airbus, Gary specifically said they need a “smaller” airframe. With MAX7 on order already this is a present tense statement meaning outside of anything that has already been ordered.

I believe this time is different.


As stated by others earlier, the pilots would still demand 737 pay rates. That doesn't work for an A220 or E190. WN pilots are just about the best there is when it comes to getting what they want.

The pay scale worked when they flew the 122 seat 737-200/500. I believe it can work for a 130 seat aircraft.


They got rid of those aircraft a long time ago and didn't replace them. That should tell you something. If you're going to have to pay the same rate regardless of seat count, you may as well go for the most seats possible. WN aircraft size has only trended toward larger aircraft via the 738 and 7M8. If they had wanted a 732/735 replacement then I'm sure Boeing would have sold them the 736 for a song and dance. You see the same trend at Spirit and Frontier. Almost all deliveries over the last years have been A320/321. Not the A319.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:40 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
1. They definitely will get it, it’s the lowest CASM machine around and WN are sick of being screwed and want to teach Boeing a lesson because of the MAX.


Funny, considering the whole mess with the MAX is because of WN's (and AA's) demands. If it wasn't for that, we probably could have gotten a clean sheet design.


No, the whole mess of the MAX was completely Boeing's responsibility and doing. They chose to design it the way, and using the deceitful method, they did. No-one forced them and they chose shareholder dividends over safety
 
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barney captain
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:49 pm

They should more accurately title the article "Southwest headfakes Boeing with fabricated Airbus interest to secure better pricing on future MAX".
Southeast Of Disorder
 
OB1504
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:03 pm

mileduets wrote:
Although A-220 models are built in Alabama, they will not be considered US planes by a big part the flying public. Southwest and Alaska built up their marketing image for people with an ingrained "if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going" attitude. Alaska tried it out with a few Airbuses, but might move back to an all Boeing fleet after all, as it seems.


The majority of the flying public doesn't know or care what airplane they're flying on (with the possible exception of the 737 MAX because of all the negative publicity). In any case the safety cards will still say "Final assembly of this airplane was completed in the United States".

TTailedTiger wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It's clear that you don't realize that OEM support is an ongoing element throughout the ownership of an aircraft (...) Unless Southwest wants to start manufacturing their own parts (good luck) or turn to the black market like some less than reputable airlines, they'll make no such statement to Boeing.


What's clear is that you don't realise the legal implications. Airliner (and engine) manufacturers have a legal obligation, as defined by aviation regulations, to provide support for their aircraft, regardless of whether the operator tells the manufacturer to "f you and the f-ing horse you rode in on" which, in the case of every Max owner and operator, would be a perfectly logical and understandable position to take. As for obtaining spares, there's a phalanx of legal and perfectly viable options for securing the vast majority of parts from independent sources. And where that's not possible, we're back at the aforementioned legal obligations.


No, they do not. See Airbus and Concorde and Boeing and the MD-80 as examples of that.


Airbus didn't make Concorde and Boeing didn't make the MD-80. They inherited support for those projects but they're not true Airbus or Boeing products and they still supported them for decades after they stopped building them.

TWA772LR wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
WN says they’re considering airbus every time they order. We’ve seen this thread a hundred times lol. Every time they just want a better deal on 737s, nothing to see here.

I do agree the A220 would work wonders for them, but single fleet type is a huge part of their strategy. They’re likely to wait for NSA as a replacement to their 737 fleet.


Agree. 737-10 is their next new model if they add a new model. The WN model works. The 73G worked and works when all other majors all but abandoned the A319 and 73G.

United didn't abandon neither the 319 nor 73G, in fact they even took on used frames.

I'd like to see SWA with 8/10 MAXs Along side both A220s, but I still think it's all a ploy to get a better bargain for MAX7s. WN is too stingy to add another aircraft, much less another aircraft with a totally different engine.


AA and Delta also have sizable A319 fleets. AA even picked up a few used examples from Frontier.
 
Noshow
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:11 pm

OT: Airbus modified and flight tested Concorde until it was safe to fly again and ungrounded. Only then its two operators halted their services for economic reasons. Afterwards Airbus ended its support.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:19 pm

JHCRJ700 wrote:
Alaska's dumping of the Airbus fleet has nothing to do with appealing to the "if it aint Boeing, I aint going crowd." They're trying to streamline their fleets and simplify their cost structure. It will be interesting to see what they do with the A321NEOs though.

Adding to this, they own the Boeing fleet, they lease the Airbus fleet. With the COVID reduction in demand, it's a no-brainer to let leases go rather then try to sell any aircraft in this market.

The A321 NEOs had a good chance before COVID. Now, they are just excess capacity.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:05 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
JHCRJ700 wrote:
Alaska's dumping of the Airbus fleet has nothing to do with appealing to the "if it aint Boeing, I aint going crowd." They're trying to streamline their fleets and simplify their cost structure. It will be interesting to see what they do with the A321NEOs though.

Adding to this, they own the Boeing fleet, they lease the Airbus fleet. With the COVID reduction in demand, it's a no-brainer to let leases go rather then try to sell any aircraft in this market.

The A321 NEOs had a good chance before COVID. Now, they are just excess capacity.


And from what had been posted here, those A321neo's had some pretty high lease rates since VX was one of the first airlines to receive them. And the leasing company will have no issue getting another airline to take them. It's still in high demand.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:26 pm

mileduets wrote:
Although A-220 models are built in Alabama, they will not be considered US planes by a big part the flying public. Southwest and Alaska built up their marketing image for people with an ingrained "if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going" attitude. Alaska tried it out with a few Airbuses, but might move back to an all Boeing fleet after all, as it seems.


But isn't the standard mantra on a.net that the general public have no idea anything about aircraft, or what they are flying on? Fascinating how this mantra is always held 'true'...until it suits an argument lol
 
atsiang
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:39 pm

sunking737 wrote:
Refresh my memory but Alaska is dumping all their Airbus aircraft to stay with Boeing..WN will stay with Boeing.


AS and WN are in two totally different situations. Just because what AS does with their fleet does not necessarily translate to what WN will do. AS inherited Airbus fleet from VX while WN did not albeit 717 from Airtrans. WN got screwed over by Boeing big time while impact to AS with the MAX delays have been minimal. It made financial sense for AS to dump Airbus due to the low demand from the pandemic. WN in consideration for its future has to look to see what aircraft will meet their need and Airbus obviously has a better portfolio of planes to choose from than Boeing.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:04 pm

atsiang wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
Refresh my memory but Alaska is dumping all their Airbus aircraft to stay with Boeing..WN will stay with Boeing.


AS and WN are in two totally different situations. Just because what AS does with their fleet does not necessarily translate to what WN will do. AS inherited Airbus fleet from VX while WN did not albeit 717 from Airtrans. WN got screwed over by Boeing big time while impact to AS with the MAX delays have been minimal. It made financial sense for AS to dump Airbus due to the low demand from the pandemic. WN in consideration for its future has to look to see what aircraft will meet their need and Airbus obviously has a better portfolio of planes to choose from than Boeing.


Do you have any surces to confirm your claim that Southwest is mad at Boeing?
 
Jetport
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:56 pm

I would think the E195-E2 would be a better fit for LUV if they want to go smaller. Price and availability would be much better than the A-220 and LUV's route network doesn't need the extra range of the A-220.
 
WBM
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:07 pm

If I had to place a bet, I would absolutely bet that Southwest sticks with the the 737 and does not order the A220. My best guess is that it is that there is about an 80% chance that Southwest is using this as leverage to get what they want from Boing, and doing the due diligence they would with any aircraft. That leaves a 20% chance that this actually amounts to anything. That being said I think the A220 has the best shot I've ever seen for a non 737 to enter Southwest's fleet.
 
kiowa
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:35 am

nine4nine wrote:
The 737 is dead after the MAX program. WN will have to eventually fly something other than a 737. And for short thin routes and longer range routes from small markets this is a new airplane that will be around for a very long time. I think they will pull the trigger on this. Gone are the days of old WN thinking, route strategy, and flying only a 737.


As much as I dislike the 737 and find it an uncomfortable dinosaur of an aircraft, it has served SWA well. I am sure the MAX will be approved shortly and many airlines will embrace it. Too much money is at stake. I will not fly on it but many people will believe it is safe for their own reasons. It would be good to see SWA look to another aircraft type.
 
777Mech
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:38 am

As much as I'd like to see an A220 in the Southwest livery, this is all just a ploy to score even deeper discounts on some MAX 7s. That's all it is.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:18 am

Can a company that is bleeding money on all its programs really "give away" any orders these days?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:34 am

Jetport wrote:
I would think the E195-E2 would be a better fit for LUV if they want to go smaller. Price and availability would be much better than the A-220 and LUV's route network doesn't need the extra range of the A-220.


I think if management and pilots could have a come to Jesus meeting and work out a fair payscale to fly the E175, it would be a done deal. That is the size of aircraft they need to make some city pairs work long-term.
 
eraugrad02
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:34 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm guessing Boeing will allow any WN 737-7 that hasn't already been produced to be switched to the 737-8 at no charge. The A319neo and 737-7 are not popular at all and it seems the smallest type anyone wants is the A320neo or 737-8.

Well let us keep in mind Boeing added more seats to the 737-7 to better fit what it was looking for in max seating for the baby 737. The -7 is more a baby 737-400 rather than a bigger 737-300. The performance of the -7 beats the A220-300. The range is a hair under 4000nm which would let the low cost carrier fly to light international destinations whether its Canada, Mexico, or Central America.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
atsiang
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:01 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
atsiang wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
Refresh my memory but Alaska is dumping all their Airbus aircraft to stay with Boeing..WN will stay with Boeing.


AS and WN are in two totally different situations. Just because what AS does with their fleet does not necessarily translate to what WN will do. AS inherited Airbus fleet from VX while WN did not albeit 717 from Airtrans. WN got screwed over by Boeing big time while impact to AS with the MAX delays have been minimal. It made financial sense for AS to dump Airbus due to the low demand from the pandemic. WN in consideration for its future has to look to see what aircraft will meet their need and Airbus obviously has a better portfolio of planes to choose from than Boeing.


Do you have any surces to confirm your claim that Southwest is mad at Boeing?


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/airline ... llion.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -max-moves
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... n-quarter/
 
AZORMP
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:09 am

TaniTaniwha wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
eraugrad02 wrote:
What say you guys?

1. They definitely will get it, it’s the lowest CASM machine around and WN are sick of being screwed and want to teach Boeing a lesson because of the MAX.
2. They have to demonstrate to the shareholders that they are showing due diligence and have approached airbus as a way to extract the best price from Boeing, they will never leave Boeing.

Delete as appropriate.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Seriously, you think that's how big business works? They want to teach Boeing a lesson....?



Yes, when procurement folks are unhappy with how a company is performing, they are not above giving another company a chance to send a warning to their original supplier. It’s quite common, really.
Kalamazoo’s Radio Man

The RJ2 sucks.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:13 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Jetport wrote:
I would think the E195-E2 would be a better fit for LUV if they want to go smaller. Price and availability would be much better than the A-220 and LUV's route network doesn't need the extra range of the A-220.


I think if management and pilots could have a come to Jesus meeting and work out a fair payscale to fly the E175, it would be a done deal. That is the size of aircraft they need to make some city pairs work long-term.

I remember when we thought the same thing about 717 they acquired via the AirTran acquisition. They were getting them with relatively junior crews so making less money, and were still economically competitive with the NG. It was going to be a way for WN to capture a lot of smaller city pairs. Well, they gave it a try and it did not work. Their operation depends on interchange of aircraft and crew. Increasingly the 717s got shunted off into sub networks mainly the big one focused at ATL, then they just threw in the towel.

The only way I see a second aircraft type is if the WN upper management has lost faith in Boeing to the point they feel they must have a second aircraft type and can suffer the huge financial consequences of doing so. I doubt we're there at this point in time. I also realize there won't be a follow on to MAX so eventually there will need to be a second aircraft type to transition to, but it doesn't make sense to take the big hit that will entail till it absolutely has to be done. It especially doesn't make sense to make the decision under duress due to the covid situation. How can you convince the unions to make sacrifices just to see the money spend on new aircraft? It makes a lot more sense to ride out the MAX for its natural life time and revisit things in the 2030 time frame when everyone should have a much better idea of what the next generation engines and airframes are going to look like.
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