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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:03 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
FixemFlyem wrote:
Southwest doesn’t have Max pilots and NG pilots. They all fly all of them, with the same type rating.
fefe

Maybe you haven't been reading Aviation week. The Max will have a type from the NG and the pilots WILL be be required to have Both. if they fly both. WN didn't win anything in this and neither did Boeing except a Black eye..

There is one 737 type rating, and Classic/NG/MAX are variants that need individual qualification. You get your initial qualification on one variant, and then you can move to others via differences training because common qualification criteria has been met. MAX always needed differences training to gain qualification even before the tragedies. After RTS this training won't be all computer based, it will have classroom and simulator components too.

So WN will have both MAX and NG pilots with the common 737 type rating. Differences training will be needed to fly MAX, but that was always the case. What will be different is the training will be longer and will have sim and classroom components.
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bob75013
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:18 pm

The premise of the article is that Southwest best choice might be to not buy either more Max7s or A220s. Just hang on to the (not very old) 737-700s and maybe buy a few of the newer used ones on the market.
and then buy something new after a next gen aircraft come out in maybe 10 years.

Makes sense to me.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/11/ ... 220-order/
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:45 pm

bob75013 wrote:
The premise of the article is that Southwest best choice might be to not buy either more Max7s or A220s. Just hang on to the (not very old) 737-700s and maybe buy a few of the newer used ones on the market.
and then buy something new after a next gen aircraft come out in maybe 10 years.


I had previously mentioned the possibility of WN acquiring some more used 737-700's from airlines such as KL and SK as a possibility with the plane shortages that WN was facing as a result of the retirement of its 737-300's in September 2017 and the 737 MAX grounding since March 2019.

WN might also be able to pick up some used 737-700's from DL with DL having recently retired its 737-700's.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:04 am

I think this is a ploy to get a better price on the 737-7. Let's keep in mind, Boeing worked with Southwest to make the plane better suited for its operations. I think they'll order the plane as Boeing pretty much made this model for them and Westjet. Boeing, you guys f'd up as a business. Do everything you can to keep these airlines in the Boeing camp. They want the aircraft you guys produce. Give the a good reason to stay. I have faith in you guys. So does every airline with an all Boeing fleet. I even think United might defer their A321Neo orders to become the launch customer for the 767Max. Well never know...

Des,
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:14 am

They need a newer fleet in the 130-145 seat range. Don’t really care if it’s A220 or MAX 7 as long as it can be flown to smaller markets.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:23 am

eraugrad02 wrote:
I think this is a ploy to get a better price on the 737-7. Let's keep in mind, Boeing worked with Southwest to make the plane better suited for its operations. I think they'll order the plane as Boeing pretty much made this model for them and Westjet. Boeing, you guys f'd up as a business. Do everything you can to keep these airlines in the Boeing camp. They want the aircraft you guys produce. Give the a good reason to stay. I have faith in you guys. So does every airline with an all Boeing fleet. I even think United might defer their A321Neo orders to become the launch customer for the 767Max. Well never know...

Des,


So much wishful thinking !
A customer ( real big one ) like SouthWest deserves much more ! Boeing failed to produce the promised aircraft in a big way ( 19 month grounded )
United should defer their A321NEO to become a launch cusomer of the 767Max ? I honestly hope you are fine after your trip to nowhereland !?
 
saab2000
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:20 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
They need a newer fleet in the 130-145 seat range. Don’t really care if it’s A220 or MAX 7 as long as it can be flown to smaller markets.


The MAX 7 is actually larger than the 737-700. It's smaller than the MAX 8 but not by a whole lot.

Up the page there was a comment about getting more -700s and keeping existing ones because the current ones aren't that old. The oldest ones are now over 20 years old and are pretty high-cycle aircraft. They're getting up there. Besides, I don't think they want more -700s but they do want more in the size of the -800. As far as waiting for a "Next Gen" aircraft, the A220 is about as "Next Gen" as we'll see in a while I think.

The result of this may simply be more MAX series aircraft as Boeing is likely going to try hard to move them but I don't think they're bluffing about the A220. If it's a better airplane for their future an order won't shock me.
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bob75013
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:27 pm

saab2000 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
They need a newer fleet in the 130-145 seat range. Don’t really care if it’s A220 or MAX 7 as long as it can be flown to smaller markets.


The MAX 7 is actually larger than the 737-700. It's smaller than the MAX 8 but not by a whole lot.

Up the page there was a comment about getting more -700s and keeping existing ones because the current ones aren't that old. The oldest ones are now over 20 years old and are pretty high-cycle aircraft. They're getting up there. Besides, I don't think they want more -700s but they do want more in the size of the -800. As far as waiting for a "Next Gen" aircraft, the A220 is about as "Next Gen" as we'll see in a while I think.

The result of this may simply be more MAX series aircraft as Boeing is likely going to try hard to move them but I don't think they're bluffing about the A220. If it's a better airplane for their future an order won't shock me.


One point in the article I linked to up thread mimics what you said: Southwest does want to add more 800s/MAX8s - and not necessarily lots more MAX7s..

Southwest's current fleet mix is roughly 2/3 700s and 1/3 800s.

The authors expectation was that Southwest would continue to add MAX 8's until the fleet mix was about 1/2 700's and 1/2 800s/MAX8s - retiring the oldest 700s and replacing them with newer aircraft on the used market as time passes.

At the very least there will be NEO options in 10 years to choose from - and maybe next gen options too.When that happens, buy 700/MAX7 replacements.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:58 pm

Am I the only one who would enjoy having a 2-3 seating configuration option? With 2 kids in haul the 2 side would be much nicer and work better.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:59 pm

Obviously not going to happen, but they could buy up all the 737-600's and put winglets on them. It of course wouldn't be as good as the A220 on fuel burn but it would be better than the -700 for smaller passenger loads.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:12 pm

An commitment for 200-250 A220-500 would secure early slots and create evonomies of scale, enabling price reductions, quicker ramp up.

I think the 737-7 backlog is empty now & SouthWest pushed them aside already before the MAX crashes.
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bob75013
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:59 pm

keesje wrote:
An commitment for 200-250 A220-500 would secure early slots and create evonomies of scale, enabling price reductions, quicker ramp up.

I think the 737-7 backlog is empty now & SouthWest pushed them aside already before the MAX crashes.


Southwest pushed the MAX7 order aside because it already has 493 700s - average age 16 years. Southwest has been moving to larger aircraft so some of the arriving MAX8s will replace retiring 700s. Thus it doesn't need a huge MAX7 (or A220) order.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:48 pm

bob75013 wrote:
keesje wrote:
An commitment for 200-250 A220-500 would secure early slots and create evonomies of scale, enabling price reductions, quicker ramp up.

I think the 737-7 backlog is empty now & SouthWest pushed them aside already before the MAX crashes.


Southwest pushed the MAX7 order aside because it already has 493 700s - average age 16 years. Southwest has been moving to larger aircraft so some of the arriving MAX8s will replace retiring 700s. Thus it doesn't need a huge MAX7 (or A220) order.


? I think so.

“We absolutely do need the smaller airplane,” Southwest CEO Gary Kelly said during the airlines 3rd quarter earnings on Thursday, Oct. 22. “We have a ton of 737-700s that are coming up for retirement over the next several years.”


https://community.infiniteflight.com/t/ ... 300/494187
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:46 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
They need a newer fleet in the 130-145 seat range. Don’t really care if it’s A220 or MAX 7 as long as it can be flown to smaller markets.

the one thin g that MADE WN a powerhouse was that they flew One Model of airplane and? They kicked BUTT doing it! now? They can fly a second or even a third model but can they Still BE "Southwest"?? I don't know. Have they outgrown their Model? I don't know. that they might have? I can't really say. But? have they pushed this model as far as it can go? That's the question...








'
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:50 am

Folks, mocking other users is disrespecting other users. Please read the forum rules.
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:19 am

The 737-7 is the last generation of a 50 + year old aircraft type, while the A220 is the first generation of an aircraft type that will likely be available for decades. So considering that Southwest will have no choice but to choose something other than a 737 relatively soon, right now might be a good time to do it. There hasn't been better deals on new airplanes since the 2001-2004 era.

Please remember that the competition has already ordered the A220 series. And I don't think anyone is arguing the efficiency of the A220 vs the 737-7.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:47 am

Could we ever see SW make an order for the -9/-10?
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:43 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The 737-7 is the last generation of a 50 + year old aircraft type, while the A220 is the first generation of an aircraft type that will likely be available for decades. So considering that Southwest will have no choice but to choose something other than a 737 relatively soon, right now might be a good time to do it. There hasn't been better deals on new airplanes since the 2001-2004 era.

Please remember that the competition has already ordered the A220 series. And I don't think anyone is arguing the efficiency of the A220 vs the 737-7.


I somehow doubt we are going to see much in the way of further development of existing models, bar enough to keep them efficient & in service. Aircraft manufacturers are going to need to face a step change in technology and systems to reduce carbon emissions for the market of tomorrow and that is where they are going to need to put their resources / energy; otherwise it's toast, surely. No doubt connected to Boeing's decision re the MNA. I don't think there will be many more conventional aircraft and engines of the sort we have become accustomed to and this change of gear - while welcome and needed - will take time and be seriously costly. Hydrogen is going to be the big winner here surely, despite all the talk of electric propulsion on smaller a/c. And it's still quite a way off no doubt.... quite how we navigate this transition is little discussed on this forum.
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:06 pm

keesje wrote:
An commitment for 200-250 A220-500 would secure early slots and create evonomies of scale, enabling price reductions, quicker ramp up.

I think the 737-7 backlog is empty now & SouthWest pushed them aside already before the MAX crashes.

Only if you ignore

a) The 500 doesn't even exist.
2) Airbus can't even build their A220 backlog fast enough to make slots available.
iii) Airbus can't make even make money on the A220 for the foreseeable future.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:54 pm

Southwest's first 737-800 aircraft is 8 1/2 years old
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:34 pm

Bricktop wrote:
keesje wrote:
An commitment for 200-250 A220-500 would secure early slots and create evonomies of scale, enabling price reductions, quicker ramp up.

I think the 737-7 backlog is empty now & SouthWest pushed them aside already before the MAX crashes.

Only if you ignore

a) The 500 doesn't even exist.
2) Airbus can't even build their A220 backlog fast enough to make slots available.
iii) Airbus can't make even make money on the A220 for the foreseeable future.

Yes, it's been said over and over again.
And keesje corrected his post, he meant to say A220-300.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:57 pm

Would the option of keeping the 737-700 for the next 10-15 years be possible? Would that save them money?
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:18 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
Would the option of keeping the 737-700 for the next 10-15 years be possible? Would that save them money?


Probably is will take a long time to replace the 500 737-700. Some aren't that old, but many are getting real old that's why SW has to take a decision. Deliveries of 737-700 started in 1997 but there is also a batch delivered in 2011, so those could probably be around another 10-15 years.

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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:28 pm

I believe SWA has something like 80 737-700's that are hitting 20 years old on average by 2025 (or today). These won't have much life left in them, really, but I could also see them picking up enough used 737-800's etc. to just retire them as they come due for major maintenance. It's long been rumored WN isn't enthused about a big 737-7Max order, and their options on the used/lease/white tail market are certainly...greater than they were 12 months ago.

Again any A220 plan would have to incorporate the fact that the planes have never been delivered on time/hit a full annual delivery target. If being considered seriously, it would also logically be the case that they'd talk to Embraer as well, which does have a track record of deliveries on time/available slots.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:07 pm

I'm confused by the assertion that 20 year old 737-700s do not have much life in them. The 737 is certified for 110,000 Flight cycles +FC) and 125,000 flight hours (FH). If you hit either, the plane is done.

Airlines have performed the bulkhead repair due by 85,000 FC. So it isn't as if 737s haven't lasted.

LH retired a 27 year old A320 at (going from memory) just over 57,000 FC.

SouthWest would, in my opinion, benefit from A220s. My math says replacing a 20+ year old 73G with an A223 is a smart move. Heck, WN was to replace 73Gs with -7 MAX early:

https://leehamnews.com/2018/04/30/south ... tirements/

Aborted due to MAX issues...

I see WN finding a business case to replace the 73G, not a need... So efficiency matters.

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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:34 pm

744SPX wrote:
Obviously not going to happen, but they could buy up all the 737-600's and put winglets on them. It of course wouldn't be as good as the A220 on fuel burn but it would be better than the -700 for smaller passenger loads.


They'd need to pony up for an STC then, the -600 isn't certified for winglets.
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:02 am

lightsaber wrote:
My math says replacing a 20+ year old 73G with an A223 is a smart move. Heck, WN was to replace 73Gs with -7 MAX early:


That's the thing: WN wasn't replacing -700s with MAX 7s - it was replacing them with MAX 8s. Look at their MAX 8 vs. MAX 7 order mix.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:29 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
My math says replacing a 20+ year old 73G with an A223 is a smart move. Heck, WN was to replace 73Gs with -7 MAX early:


That's the thing: WN wasn't replacing -700s with MAX 7s - it was replacing them with MAX 8s. Look at their MAX 8 vs. MAX 7 order mix.


And a rumor floating around was that the MAX 7s were going to be configured for ETOPS, which if true would mean those 30 frames would have a niche role in their network for minimal cost (same crew and MX overhead as the MAX 8). Also, the only WN stations that would really benefit from a MAX 7s performance for ETOPS would namely be BUR, SNA, LAS, PHX and perhaps DEN. All other CA stations can fly ETOPS comfortably with the -800NG or MAX 8.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:48 am

lightsaber wrote:
I'm confused by the assertion that 20 year old 737-700s do not have much life in them. The 737 is certified for 110,000 Flight cycles +FC) and 125,000 flight hours (FH). If you hit either, the plane is done.

Airlines have performed the bulkhead repair due by 85,000 FC. So it isn't as if 737s haven't lasted.

LH retired a 27 year old A320 at (going from memory) just over 57,000 FC.

SouthWest would, in my opinion, benefit from A220s. My math says replacing a 20+ year old 73G with an A223 is a smart move. Heck, WN was to replace 73Gs with -7 MAX early:

https://leehamnews.com/2018/04/30/south ... tirements/

Aborted due to MAX issues...

I see WN finding a business case to replace the 73G, not a need... So efficiency matters.

Lightsaber


Retiring 20 years would either mean 14 cycles a day or 16 hours of flying a day if we only look at the certified values. But seeing your example of LH there are other factors at play as well for retiring before cycle or flight hour limit...
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:51 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
keesje wrote:
An commitment for 200-250 A220-500 would secure early slots and create evonomies of scale, enabling price reductions, quicker ramp up.

I think the 737-7 backlog is empty now & SouthWest pushed them aside already before the MAX crashes.

Only if you ignore

a) The 500 doesn't even exist.
2) Airbus can't even build their A220 backlog fast enough to make slots available.
iii) Airbus can't make even make money on the A220 for the foreseeable future.

Yes, it's been said over and over again.
And keesje corrected his post, he meant to say A220-300.

I humbly apologize. Can you point to the correction? As of now, post 211 still says -500 and that was what I quoted, and I don’t see such variance in a subsequent post.

Notwithstanding said realization of the first point, numbers 2 and 3 both invalidate the premise jointly and severally.
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:53 pm

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strfyr51
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:34 am

BNAMealer wrote:
They need a newer fleet in the 130-145 seat range. Don’t really care if it’s A220 or MAX 7 as long as it can be flown to smaller markets.


One other thing you need to keep in mind, WN does LOT of takeoff and Landing cycles on their airplanes and they'll need a fuselage and Landing gear combination to work with those conditions. Now? Whether Boeing or Airbus build such a robust and rugged fuselage/landing gear combination in the future? will go a long way toward securing a new model order from WN. Of that you can bet. The 737 is proven to be a high cycle tolerant Airframe. Airbus can do Hi cycles but it isn't necessarily built for it.. which is why many more 737's will eventually be in Freighter service in the coming years..
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:28 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
They need a newer fleet in the 130-145 seat range. Don’t really care if it’s A220 or MAX 7 as long as it can be flown to smaller markets.


One other thing you need to keep in mind, WN does LOT of takeoff and Landing cycles on their airplanes and they'll need a fuselage and Landing gear combination to work with those conditions. Now? Whether Boeing or Airbus build such a robust and rugged fuselage/landing gear combination in the future? will go a long way toward securing a new model order from WN. Of that you can bet. The 737 is proven to be a high cycle tolerant Airframe. Airbus can do Hi cycles but it isn't necessarily built for it.. which is why many more 737's will eventually be in Freighter service in the coming years..

It isn't just the gear. That can be rebuilt. It comes down to how many cycles can the airframe be certified for. Almost all airframes are not certified for their design capability. For example, the A320 was certified initially for 48,000 Flight cycles (FC) and 60,000 flight hours (FH). LH retired one at just over (going from memory) 57,000 FC. Add a few brackets on any after the initial build and that became 60,000 FC and 120,000 FH. The CRJs started at 60,000 FC, 90,000 FH and are now certified for 80,000 FC and 120,000 FH with a few past the initial 60,000 FC.

The A220 is certified for 60,000 FC and 90,000 FH. (C-checks now at 10,000 hours or 3 C-checks per HMV * 3 HMV for planned=90,000 FH).
Link on cycle testing (tested to 180,000 cycles to prove good for 60,000):
https://www.iabg.de/en/news-events/deta ... 00-fluege/

Notice they were testing to determine residual strength. That means Airbus has the data to know if they can go for more (possibly with either making parts more flexibly are putting in doublers to strengthen parts a la A320 which did both).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A220

A CFRP wing is not the limit on cycles nor hours, so unless there is a weak link, the A220 should be certifiable for far more hours and more cycles. Then again, I thought that about the a320 getting to 90,000 FC and 180,000 FH and it failed (by a method on cycles). We had a thread on that:
viewtopic.php?t=775787

Ok, a long answer that I agree WN needs a durable plane. Since they have done the 85,000 FC bulkhead repair (going from memory) on the 737, but don't tend to keep them aircraft not too much longer... I think 90k cycles is required.

But look at that lovely cycle testing. Ugh... I thought only 2X cycles were required (3X is easy to prove "good enough" even if the plane turns to dust 1 cycle later...). So this could be a paper exercise (mind you, a large team of stress engineers working for years) to extend to 90,000 cycles for the A220. :scratchchin:

Anyone have a copy of AC120-104 handy? That is the regulation, I'm just not willing to pay $60 to get a copy for the fun of it.

But the A380 only tested 47,500 cycles to certify for half that. So there is precedence.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... -a380.html

So this begs the question, the fatigue testing also does accelerated hours testing. I haven't been able to find any A220 reference on how many simulated accelerated hours were tested. But I am of the opinion Bombardier did enough testing to increase the limit of validity of the C-series A220 to 90,000 cycles. I assume they kept the 2:3 ratio so 135,000 FH, but that is only my guess. That is more than sufficient for WN.

Now to divert a team of about 40 stress engineers (including a competent set of technical leads under a director) to plow through the data for 3 or so years...

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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:19 pm

744SPX wrote:
Obviously not going to happen, but they could buy up all the 737-600's and put winglets on them. It of course wouldn't be as good as the A220 on fuel burn but it would be better than the -700 for smaller passenger loads.

God, I would LOVE to see a 736 in WN colors...but that's a pipe dream that burst into thin air about 20 years ago.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:20 pm

Well I guess they aren’t buying the A220

WN in advanced talks with Boeing to buy the 737 Max white tails

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ost-buyers
 
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:31 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Well I guess they aren’t buying the A220

WN in advanced talks with Boeing to buy the 737 Max white tails

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ost-buyers

Southwest is looking for cost mitigation and playing to strengths ny taking whitetails. Notice they are not taking on more MAX. So while that information reduces the likelihood WN buys A220, it doesn't take the chance to zero.

At this time Airbus needs 2021 and 2022 A220 deliveries. For example the 18 lost from AC.

Southwest probably won't confirm any orders until union cost control to make sure they have the cash.

That said, more than likely you are right. But not everything is settled. Personally, I would keep WN one fleet type after figuratively BBQ'ing the Boeing negotiation team on harsh terms.

Lightsaber
Late edit: I want a Southwest A220 order more than any other new order. That said, money talks and a new fleet type is a lot of money if Southwest can instead abridge their current contract, it would be best for them

But the terms I would expect are not good for Boeing.
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Capricorn
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:32 pm

From the linked article

Any of the aircraft that Southwest accepts from storage at Boeing would replace a similar number of the 249 planes that the airline has already ordered, said the people, who asked not to be identified as the discussions are confidential. In other words, the largest Max customer isn’t looking to pad its order book amid a market depressed by the coronavirus pandemic.


Does that not mean that they are just discussing a switch of aircraft? Already built ones for new ordered ones. Would be a Win Win. Are there any MAX-7 whit tails? AFAIK the A220 would compete against the MAX-7 not the MAX-8. and WN has stated that they would like an aircraft the size of the B737-700. So I guess these negotiations do not affect the eventual decision on either ordering more MAX-7 or A220s (but I still think they will buy more MAX-7s).

Edit: lightsaber was faster, so mea culpa

Edit 2: stupid question by me: by checking customers there should be no MAX7 white tails
 
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scbriml
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:55 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Well I guess they aren’t buying the A220

WN in advanced talks with Boeing to buy the 737 Max white tails

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ost-buyers


Not at all, because to the best of my knowledge, all the white tails are -8s which are not additional orders, simply a rejigging of existing Southwest orders, and the requirement is for smaller planes as made clear by Southwest themselves.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:58 pm

United should defer their A321NEO to become a launch cusomer of the 767Max ? I honestly hope you are fine after your trip to nowhereland !?


Not to go too far afield, but United has expressed serious interest in new 767s in the past. A year or so ago, they asked Boeing about restarting the 767 production line, even before the NEO/MAX/PLUS developments were announced. Now, with an up-engined 767 under consideration for cargo ops, could it find its way into the pax market? Perhaps. Probably not, but perhaps, and United could wind up operating it if it did. Simply put, they like the type. Make it cheap enough and it could just maybe - perhaps - in a perfect world happen.

Now, back to the thread at hand... What routes are there that the A220 could operate better than the 737? What routes are there that the Airbus bird would clearly outperform a new 737 in? And, would that outperformance offer such a clear advantage that Southwest couldn't afford to turn down the A220? That's what I'm grappling with. I still think this is mostly business bluster on Southwest's part to negotiate a better deal from Boeing, but... If the A220 was simply heads above the 737 over a large part of Southwest's market and route map, then maybe? I'd appreciate hearing everyones' thoughts on this. I'm hardly a Southwest expert, so I value your thoughts and views.

Have a great day and stay safe,

Robert
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:38 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Well I guess they aren’t buying the A220

WN in advanced talks with Boeing to buy the 737 Max white tails

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ost-buyers


Gee, I think I said that would happen on pages 2 or 3 of ttis thread.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:45 pm

I believe Delta has also expressed interest in the white tails? Could Boeing be in a position to bid up the price on these frames?

Conversely, if DL loses out on the opportunity to grab these white tail 737s, could they land a deal with Airbus to buy the 18 A220 slots previously held by AC?
 
texl1649
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:32 pm

scbriml wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Well I guess they aren’t buying the A220

WN in advanced talks with Boeing to buy the 737 Max white tails

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ost-buyers


Not at all, because to the best of my knowledge, all the white tails are -8s which are not additional orders, simply a rejigging of existing Southwest orders, and the requirement is for smaller planes as made clear by Southwest themselves.


Probably right. The Max7 only has around 100 orders (likely closer to half in ‘real world’), and I’m not clear how many frames have been built to date of this variant. Of the 500 or so that are undelivered, I have to assume fewer than 5 are actually max7’s, since WN deferred on their 20 anyway.
 
SWADawg
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:08 pm

texl1649 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Well I guess they aren’t buying the A220

WN in advanced talks with Boeing to buy the 737 Max white tails

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ost-buyers


Not at all, because to the best of my knowledge, all the white tails are -8s which are not additional orders, simply a rejigging of existing Southwest orders, and the requirement is for smaller planes as made clear by Southwest themselves.


Probably right. The Max7 only has around 100 orders (likely closer to half in ‘real world’), and I’m not clear how many frames have been built to date of this variant. Of the 500 or so that are undelivered, I have to assume fewer than 5 are actually max7’s, since WN deferred on their 20 anyway.

7 MAX7’s have been built for WN and WN plans on taking all 7 that have been built.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
CRJockey
Posts: 129
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:38 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
I believe Delta has also expressed interest in the white tails? Could Boeing be in a position to bid up the price on these frames?

Conversely, if DL loses out on the opportunity to grab these white tail 737s, could they land a deal with Airbus to buy the 18 A220 slots previously held by AC?


You seem to imply a sudden surge in interest on new planes. To be honest, that seems a bit premature. By like three years at least.

Next to nobody is in a hurry to get planes quickly, vaccine working or not. And with 500 built there hardly seem to be any shortage of 737 aircraft.

Consequently to the point of this thread: I don’t see how this in any way affects WNs desire for a smaller platform. I am not sure if WN should do the strategy change into a two type airline. But this news is changing nothing with regards to any of the arguments against or for the A220.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:40 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Well I guess they aren’t buying the A220

WN in advanced talks with Boeing to buy the 737 Max white tails

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ost-buyers


Gee, I think I said that would happen on pages 2 or 3 of ttis thread.


Excellent prediction by you and most probably a good move by WN and Boeing. But hardly changing anything about a A220 proposition.
 
eraugrad02
Topic Author
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:31 pm

Well Boeing was listening and came through. SW looks like they'll be ordering 30 of the "white tail" 737-8's.

Here's a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zp-n8PYYx4

Enjoy your day,
Des
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
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keesje
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:45 pm

A223 & 738's could be a good mix, maybe 50-50.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SWADawg
Posts: 609
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:05 pm

eraugrad02 wrote:
Well Boeing was listening and came through. SW looks like they'll be ordering 30 of the "white tail" 737-8's.

Here's a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zp-n8PYYx4

Enjoy your day,
Des

Nothing was revealed by that video. WN hasn’t officially said anything yet about whether they have a deal with Boeing over the white tails.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
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ArcticSEA
Posts: 318
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:09 pm

eraugrad02 wrote:
Well Boeing was listening and came through. SW looks like they'll be ordering 30 of the "white tail" 737-8's.

Here's a video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zp-n8PYYx4

Enjoy your day,
Des

Random guy with YouTube channel makes video. Therefore, it must be true.
You have freedom of speech. You do not have freedom to commit seditious, violent insurrection.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:23 pm

The info in the video is probably based on the news some time ago that Boeing is talking with several customers including WN about selling MAX white tails.

I can seen WN take white tails, but no order was placed last month. It also wouldn't rule out any A220 orders.

If the MAX deal materializes it will probably only be finalized and announced after the grounding is lifted. So that could be very soon judging from the recent reports.

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