Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
bcworld
Topic Author
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:28 am

Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:09 am

Story breaking in Australia tonight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... p-searched

Essentially, it's alleged that after an aborted premature foetus was discovered in the Airport (DOH) women were removed from a SYD bound flight and subject to medical examination.

Seems like a pretty shocking set of events if happened as described.
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 401
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:55 am

Disgustings.

And just 34 people on flight?
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:18 am

I have questions

1. How did they know the woman who lost the foetus was a passenger?
2. How did they know the woman who lost the foetus was onboard the Sydney-bound flight?
3. Were passengers from other flights similarly treated?
4. Is legal for them to treat passengers this way? What would have happened, legally, if one of the passengers refused to undergo the examination? The passengers were airside, departing, not trying to enter Qatar. Does that make a difference to the Qatari authorities’ powers over passengers?
5. I assume this was done by the Qatari immigration, not Qatar Airways?
6. Why?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:30 am

vhtje wrote:
Does that make a difference to the Qatari authorities’ powers over passengers?


No, local laws apply.

vhtje wrote:
I assume this was done by the Qatari immigration, not Qatar Airways?


I assume it would have been the police, not immigration. The method of disposal would have been illegal in many countries around the world, I don’t know if it is there.

There are also genuine medical concerns, if this was a passenger (could have been an airport staff member) they could suffer significant blood loss or infection after such an event which would be incompatible with a ULH flight. Under the terms and conditions of any carrier they would need a medical clearance before flying.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
bcworld
Topic Author
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:28 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:42 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Disgustings.

And just 34 people on flight?

Sydney currently accepts only a few hundred passengers per day due to arrival caps for hotel quarantine...so yes, this is the current norm as crazy as it sounds.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:04 pm

vhtje wrote:
I have questions

1. How did they know the woman who lost the foetus was a passenger?
2. How did they know the woman who lost the foetus was onboard the Sydney-bound flight?
3. Were passengers from other flights similarly treated?
4. Is legal for them to treat passengers this way? What would have happened, legally, if one of the passengers refused to undergo the examination? The passengers were airside, departing, not trying to enter Qatar. Does that make a difference to the Qatari authorities’ powers over passengers?
5. I assume this was done by the Qatari immigration, not Qatar Airways?
6. Why?


My guess is
1. They followed the CCTV footage around the wash room to see who has been in and out at a certain time frame and quickly identified the Sydney flight being the prime suspect.
2, Maybe around a certain time frame the police identified the possible mother and using CCTV around the gate and public area and identified the Sydney flight.
3, I don't know. But if they did have a CCTV camera by the entrance of the washing room area they should know which other flights to check too.
4, Depends. If the Qatari believe it is urgent, either due to the local law, or as other poster have mentioned that they would worry about the medical condition of the mother after the incident, I guess it is urgent to find the mother and to make sure she was OK and fit to fly. I don't know for sure about the authority and its power, but the aircraft is Qatar registered and still in Doha airport and was not given clearance to take off, Qatari can do whatever they want.
5, According to the report, it is Qatari authorities. As other posters have pointed out, more likely to be airport police.
6, Legal? Medical? I think zeke made a great point. So I won't repeat.
 
a320fan
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:37 pm

Revolting. Should have their traffic rights revoked, or at least use them as the threat to get assurances that such treatment will never happen again. I get that they may have medical concerns for the mother who suffered the miscarriage, but to treat a whole flight of women in such a way is beyond barbaric, regressive, and humiliating.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2875
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:43 pm

Slightly off topic, but QR issued a statement last month saying all flights to Australia would operate empty as it was too difficult to juggle the frequent weekly capacity limitations in place, so surprised tis flight has pax on board.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3890
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:47 pm

How does someone have an abortion I'm the airport bathroom? I sounds like someone had a miscarriage, which is not a crime. ME countries stay trying to control women's bodies and bodily functions.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4962
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:59 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Slightly off topic, but QR issued a statement last month saying all flights to Australia would operate empty as it was too difficult to juggle the frequent weekly capacity limitations in place, so surprised tis flight has pax on board.


That's not correct. They are not selling flights to Australia until late December, but the flights are going ahead as normal carrying 25-60 passengers per flight depending on the city, for existing ticket holders. That is on their web site, it lists out how many people they are permitted to carry to each city.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
Pelly
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:46 pm

It is not an issue of a miscarriage, its a body of a dead fetus left in a bathroom. That is not normal behavior to leave a dead fetus in the bathroom and just board a flight, it could be a sign of abuse or something else. It warrants investigating especially for the health and safety risks to the mother before boarding a ULH overwater flight.

Most bathrooms at DOH would have a bathroom attendant keeping the bathroom constantly clean. If there was a fetus left it would be found quickly and with the attendant and CCTV footage the passengers can be pinpointed. I am guessing that is how they were able to zero-in on a specific flight.

Waiting for a statement from DOH/QR to see their side of this story.
 
santi319
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:48 pm

I dont know if after having a miscarriage you should be flying a long haul flight like... how is that even cool or safe? Seriously some people in this thread are not looking at the big picture.

I bet you if you ask ANY crewmember of the world if they would allow a passenger on board after having a miscarriage they will all say ABSOLUTELY NOT.
 
User avatar
bombayduck
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:31 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:15 pm

a320fan wrote:
Revolting. Should have their traffic rights revoked, or at least use them as the threat to get assurances that such treatment will never happen again. I get that they may have medical concerns for the mother who suffered the miscarriage, but to treat a whole flight of women in such a way is beyond barbaric, regressive, and humiliating.


It happened in Qatar so local laws apply. So if they miss the person who may have miscarried what happens next.? It is better to be safe than sorry by checking all of the women.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8467
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:21 pm

Some people are missing the forest for the trees. While concern for feral remains would warrant some investigation, every single female passenger on a flight was subject to an invasive uterus inspection. How does that not strike people as an utterly disproportionate response? This was not a questionnaire or interview, it was an internal examination.

The Australian government has made a formal complaint to Qatar over the treatment of these women. This is not a couple of people looking for attention on social media, this is a really, really serious incident.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Pelly
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:34 pm

News reports are now that the baby is alive.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54682565
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10397
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:54 pm

So based on the articles, 13 Australian women were among those subjected to the search, the baby is alive and we are left to assume that whoever the mother is / was she somehow someway managed to slip through their fingers. So far no word on the investigation into the failure of the security apparatus to find the culprit, hopefully the scrutiny on them will be just as huge as their chosen method of investigation.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8467
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:16 pm

The child is alive, but the mother has not been located. Presumably therefore none of the 17 women on the flight to Sydney was the mother.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:44 pm

Pelly wrote:
News reports are now that the baby is alive.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54682565


That is good news, if a baby is born to an unknown mother they often remain stateless. If the mother remains unknown the baby will now be granted Qatari citizenship and be cared for well.

I still have genuine concerns for the mother.

par13del wrote:
So based on the articles, 13 Australian women were among those subjected to the search, the baby is alive and we are left to assume that whoever the mother is / was she somehow someway managed to slip through their fingers. So far no word on the investigation into the failure of the security apparatus to find the culprit, hopefully the scrutiny on them will be just as huge as their chosen method of investigation.


I understand you may not like the process of female being subjected to medical examination by a female doctor, could I ask you what other practical method could be employed to determine the mother ? A DNA test only would work if they had the parents DNA on record, which as a transit passenger would be unlikely.

How would you go about maintaining the confidentiality of the baby and the mother, surely these people have a right to privacy also ?

At what point do the medical needs of the child and mother outweigh the inconvenience of a medical examination?

The reality is most countries around the world retain the right to conduct medical examinations within their customs and immigration zone, and what they need is reasonable suspicion of a crime to conduct an examination. Often this is a swab of the inside of a persons shoes, in this case the evidence is a baby found in the bathroom.

The other piece of the puzzle is that it is illegal in Qatar to be single and to be pregnant, extra-marital sex and adultery are illegal under Qatari law, and giving birth to an illegitimate baby results in a jail sentence. The mother may have been aware of these laws.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:12 pm

zeke wrote:
I understand you may not like the process of female being subjected to medical examination by a female doctor, could I ask you what other practical method could be employed to determine the mother ? A DNA test only would work if they had the parents DNA on record, which as a transit passenger would be unlikely.

You know that a DNA test is as fast and easy as a COVID test, right? They could simply invite all passengers to a brief swab during deboarding as an "extra measure in these unusual times" and contact the mother later. There is no need for a thorough invasive examination of every single female passenger.

It's like SWATing every single home in a neighbourhood after finding a body on the street. You just don't. You may knock politely and ask for eyewitnesses but you don't bring out the big guns until you've got a good clue who it might be.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10397
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:24 pm

zeke wrote:
par13del wrote:
So based on the articles, 13 Australian women were among those subjected to the search, the baby is alive and we are left to assume that whoever the mother is / was she somehow someway managed to slip through their fingers. So far no word on the investigation into the failure of the security apparatus to find the culprit, hopefully the scrutiny on them will be just as huge as their chosen method of investigation.


I understand you may not like the process of female being subjected to medical examination by a female doctor, could I ask you what other practical method could be employed to determine the mother ?

If the articles are true, what is so impractical in letting the women know the reason for their removal from the a/c and the need for the examination? Do they somehow believe that all women will discard of their babies, note that the reporters did not even think it important to state how many of the 17 were mothers themselves and I am willing to bet that they were horrified when they heard of the abandoned child. If they were asked and they consented do you believe this would become a diplomatic incident? Do they allow female doctors, will let that one go until I see more details.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:24 pm

Please keep in mind that this is not a discussion on US laws or on contraception methods. Please discuss those topics in the Non Aviation Forum.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Capricorn
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:33 pm

Well they could have asked the female passengers to voluntary provide their DNA (Hair sample or salvia) in combination with their personal information. I am sure Australia would later on work together with the Qatari authorities to find a solution for this problem. Furthermore, as other posters have pointed out they could ask witnesses before examining the majority of women on that plane. 13 is too high and I don't think every women had the equal likelihood of placing the baby there. For example an invasive internal examination is a very disproportionate response for a female who entered without any bags and spent 3 minutes or less on the restroom, as I assume that giving birth lasts a little longer than that. Were these women informed about their rights and was did they have the option to object to such a treatment? Did a judge give his judicial consent for such an invasive examination? Where I live an involuntary internal examination needs the consent of the judiciary and it could not be decided on an adhoc basis, even at an airport. I guess we can only wait for more facts to surface as the initial reporting is often error prone.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:40 pm

Okie wrote:
What we are dealing with here is pulling people off an airplane and unlawfully giving them a pelvic exam and trying to justify the behavior.
Edited to add: must be legal in Qatar.


Exactly, the examination would have been legal under their laws, and just to be clear most countries in the world retain the right to a medical examination if there is suspicion of a crime. The crime the laws are normally centered around are related to smuggling, drugs, or terror, however are normally broad and have been used for example to search for evidence of child trafficking, pornography, religious items, and quarantine.

mxaxai wrote:
They could simply invite all passengers to a brief swab during deboarding as an "extra measure in these unusual times" and contact the mother later. There is no need for a thorough invasive examination of every single female passenger.


Simply does not work that way, most countries in the world will detain people that are suspected of a crime until, they have been cleared, they will not allow them to leave the country.

Most women have regular medical examination of this type, if it was conducted in a private setting by a female doctor I see it more as an inconvenience.

par13del wrote:
If the articles are true, what is so impractical in letting the women know the reason for their removal from the a/c and the need for the examination?


Unfortunately law enforcement is not obliged to provide that information, and it is even legal in many countries for law enforcement to lie. It also takes away from the privacy and natural justice of the mother, as anyone not being returned from the search has been identified by way of their absence of having a medical condition and being a suspected criminal.

At an airport security checkpoint they do not make a public address asking for all drug smugglers, and terrorist to please step forward, they search everyone.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
bcworld
Topic Author
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:28 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm

zeke wrote:
I see it more as an inconvenience.

Wow. I actually don't know what else to say.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:19 am

bcworld wrote:
Wow. I actually don't know what else to say.


I am sorry if you feel that gynecological examinations are taboo, I am used to having people discuss such things and cycles as being absolutely normal. It is the sort of thing that is openly discussed on TV and in print in Australia and the UK (as evidenced by the bbc piece). I have even seen government sponsored advertising encouraging females to undertake them.

It has not been reported they took painful pathology samples.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
DMPHL
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:43 am

zeke wrote:
bcworld wrote:
Wow. I actually don't know what else to say.


I am sorry if you feel that gynecological examinations are taboo, I am used to having people discuss such things and cycles as being absolutely normal. It is the sort of thing that is openly discussed on TV and in print in Australia and the UK (as evidenced by the bbc piece). I have even seen government sponsored advertising encouraging females to undertake them.

It has not been reported they took painful pathology samples.


I'm sorry if you think taking all women passengers off of a plane, bringing them into the basement of an airport without telling them what is going on, and forcefully subjecting them to a strip search and invasive cervical inspection constitutes a normal "gynecological exam."
 
bcworld
Topic Author
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:28 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:54 am

zeke wrote:

I am sorry if you feel that gynecological examinations are taboo

I don't. However plenty of women are apprehensive about them or have them undertaken by their trusted medical professionals. I am sure there are certain things that many women might do prior to such an examination that makes them feel comfortable.

The idea that you think these circumstances are merely 'inconvenient' is horrible.
 
smi0006
Posts: 2580
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:13 am

zeke wrote:
bcworld wrote:
Wow. I actually don't know what else to say.


I am sorry if you feel that gynecological examinations are taboo, I am used to having people discuss such things and cycles as being absolutely normal. It is the sort of thing that is openly discussed on TV and in print in Australia and the UK (as evidenced by the bbc piece). I have even seen government sponsored advertising encouraging females to undertake them.

It has not been reported they took painful pathology samples.


It’s inhuman, and traumatic if the individual does not wish to partake, and is done so under coercion. Whilst routine these are still invasive examinations. And it would sound like Airline staff facilitated these, not state agencies. I assume you are male - what if you, and all other males onboard were in transit and forced to have a prostate exam as drugs had been found in the terminal men’s bathrooms? They are routine and talked about often also, but still invasive. I would be incredibly uncomfortable when the only evidence is the bathroom. Is it logical to invasive inspect the body of all passengers in a traumatic manner, because of the behaviour of one? Would you fee that’s acceptable also?

It’s reported that the woman were seen boarding the aircraft in tears, Australia has lodge a formal diplomatic objection - I think we can say this is a serious event, and whilst Australia cannot police what happens in Doha, we can police who flies into your airports. If transiting a port puts our citizens at risk, direct flights should be stopped.

I have enormous compassion and sympathy for these poor woman, abs hope they can find peace and healing after what would have been a very traumatic experience.
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:16 am

Hmm, the most likely reason for the police getting involved and taking it seriously is that a woman giving birth outside marriage is a pretty serious crime in Qatar. The good news is that since it happened in Qatar, the local government will ensure that the baby is looked after, kept safe and well nourished. Probably much better than the mother would be able to do.

Qatar's legislation differ from western legislation. The action of the local law-enforcement is not wrong, it follows Qatari law.
However the local police chief didn't understand the difference between well off passengers and their reactions vs the usual crowd of suspects for these crimes, domestic helpers from Philippines, Indonesia or Sri Lanka. For a western woman to have the check up done would be a serious infringement on rights and on practices and they will be extremely upset, will go to media and gain full sympathy from any western media outlet. They will turn this into a PR nightmare for Qatar.
Right now this is exactly what Qatar don't want. They are about to hold the biggest event in the world, FIFA 2022. They have really tried their utmost, they even recently changed their labour legislation, modernising it a fair bit (FIFA legacy) and have been on a crash-course in health and safety and workplace well-being (having for the first time to implement some practices). Giant leaps, yet instead of some rightful praise this happens.
They are forced to run gauntlet in western media, seeing formal government protests (Australia) and it is not what FIFA wants or expects, neither the Qatari government.

Sadly there are cases annually, all over the Middle-east, of primarily domestic helpers that become pregnant and since they are unmarried or worse married in their home countries (often separated in catholic Philippines where getting a divorce is impossible for the poorer people) they are prosecuted as per local legislation and as per local legislation giving birth outside marriage is pretty serious.
My humble guess, in this case, is that the mother of the baby isnt an Australian bound passenger but instead a woman with a Qatari sponsor (employer) who have access to the airport and who were scared and panicking. Maybe she managed to board a plane elsewhere and possibly her sponsor showed leniency allowing her to fly out when she couldn't hide the fact she was pregnant, signing off that she could leave on 'family emergency'.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
2175301
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:16 am

Miscarriages and even spontaneous premature births do happen. I have no idea why anyone would use the term "abortion" for any of those.

Ladies who have those deserve caring and support; and not cold medical invasion of their body. While reports are that the baby is alive, the lady may not have known that when she exited the bathroom.

Based on the reports I'm horrified at the treatment of the passenger.
 
Hut
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:39 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:34 am

zeke wrote:
Most women have regular medical examination of this type, if it was conducted in a private setting by a female doctor I see it more as an inconvenience.


I think you need to seriously think about the circumstances here... you are describing a routine medical procedure where an informed adult gives their consent. Nothing about these events, as they have been reported, would suggest they are even remotely related.
 
bcworld
Topic Author
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:28 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:37 am

Another account of some of what went on: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... rch-ordeal
 
smi0006
Posts: 2580
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:54 am

Further details from the ABC - outlining what these woman went through.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-26/ ... h/12812364
 
User avatar
IceCream
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:14 am

That's horrible. This is under no circumstances ok. There should be some sort of boycott of Qatar Airlines.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1837
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:52 am

I bet Qatar is going to get some bad reviews on Trip Advisor.
 
TTJonas
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:51 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:24 am

smi0006 wrote:
Further details from the ABC - outlining what these woman went through.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-26/ ... h/12812364


From the article:
The other female passenger who spoke to the ABC said she was with a group of about six women, who began panicking when they realised they were being taken outside the airport.

"When I got in there, and there was a lady with a mask on and then the authorities closed the ambulance behind me and locked it," she said.

"They never explained anything.

"She told me to pull my pants down and that I needed to examine my vagina.

"I said 'I'm not doing that' and she did not explain anything to me. She just kept saying, 'we need to see it we need to see it'.""

The above account sounds absolutely terrifying and I truly feel for these women. Taking this account as truth (and I would be inclined to as the Australian Government has lodged a formal complaint with Qatar) what happened is not a dignified examination by a healthcare professional to ensure passengers are safe to fly. It is assault.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7116
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:28 am

zeke wrote:
bcworld wrote:
Wow. I actually don't know what else to say.


I am sorry if you feel that gynecological examinations are taboo, I am used to having people discuss such things and cycles as being absolutely normal. It is the sort of thing that is openly discussed on TV and in print in Australia and the UK (as evidenced by the bbc piece). I have even seen government sponsored advertising encouraging females to undertake them.


I don't know what to say, either. A nonconsensual invasive physical examination of what most women consider to be the most intimate part of their bodies requires much stronger grounds for suspicion than "we think it was someone on this flight." It is absolutely, positively, in no uncertain terms, not "an inconvenience." It is not taboo. It is a violation. It is barbaric. You see government sponsored advertising encouraging women to CHOOSE to have routine gynecological exams, not governments forcing women to have these exams.

When governments with a reasonable level of respect for human rights conduct invasive procedures like a body cavity check, there's generally some reasonable level of suspicion that the individual subject to search has been involved in a crime (with some institutional exceptions like prisons). Just being a woman of childbearing age on a plane is not reasonable grounds for suspicion.

Pelly wrote:
It warrants investigating especially for the health and safety risks to the mother before boarding a ULH overwater flight.


If you're really concerned about health and safety risks to the mother, then you offer medical care and counseling to a woman who would voluntarily choose to accept it. We generally don't force people to accept medical care if they are mentally competent and choose to refuse care.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8467
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:45 am

TTJonas wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Further details from the ABC - outlining what these woman went through.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-26/ ... h/12812364


From the article:
The other female passenger who spoke to the ABC said she was with a group of about six women, who began panicking when they realised they were being taken outside the airport.

"When I got in there, and there was a lady with a mask on and then the authorities closed the ambulance behind me and locked it," she said.

"They never explained anything.

"She told me to pull my pants down and that I needed to examine my vagina.

"I said 'I'm not doing that' and she did not explain anything to me. She just kept saying, 'we need to see it we need to see it'.""

The above account sounds absolutely terrifying and I truly feel for these women. Taking this account as truth (and I would be inclined to as the Australian Government has lodged a formal complaint with Qatar) what happened is not a dignified examination by a healthcare professional to ensure passengers are safe to fly. It is assault.


Spot on. This was assault if the situation was as described by passengers on the flight. It was entirely involuntary.

Note that the Australian Government have now referred the incident to the Australian Federal Police. In all honesty I’m not sure what jurisdiction the AFP have to prosecute, but they do have an obligation under Australian law to investigate whether a crime has been committed since the matter was officially referred to them.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Caryjack
Posts: 416
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 9:45 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:07 am

bcworld wrote:
Story breaking in Australia tonight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... p-searched

Essentially, it's alleged that after an aborted premature foetus was discovered in the Airport (DOH) women were removed from a SYD bound flight and subject to medical examination.

Seems like a pretty shocking set of events if happened as described.

This from your link....

“At this time, the newborn infant remains unidentified, but is safe under the professional care of medical and social workers,” the statement said.

Did I miss something?
 
AVFCdownunder
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:12 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:17 am

The only person named in the article wasn't actually examined. I doubt if there was an arbitrary examination of every female who may have had access to the toilet in question. They would have been quite understandably questioned as potential witnesses; did they see anything unusual, anyone in distress etc? CCTV footage and accounts from cleaning staff should narrow down a fairly tight time-frame as to when the baby was left there. Only people using that toilet around that time would be of interest, further more, people's demeanour, body language and responses to questioning would also be a big clue whether they'd just been through a traumatic incident such as this. I'd say a physical exam would only follow as a last resort in limited cases, to clear up any doubt.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13083
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:23 am

MillwallSean wrote:
My humble guess, in this case, is that the mother of the baby isnt an Australian bound passenger but instead a woman with a Qatari sponsor (employer) who have access to the airport and who were scared and panicking. Maybe she managed to board a plane elsewhere and possibly her sponsor showed leniency allowing her to fly out when she couldn't hide the fact she was pregnant, signing off that she could leave on 'family emergency'.


The way I read it is the baby was probably white, hence picking on the flight with a majority of white female passengers.
 
a320fan
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:05 am

Can’t believe I’ve come back here today to people defending this, sickening. This has become the biggest item in the Australian news today, after coronavirus. There will barely be anyone in the country who won’t have heard this story, I guess for QR they’re lucky our borders won’t be opening up anytime soon. I imagine it will blow over in a few days, but I would actually like to see at least a temporary revoke of QR landing rights in Australia. There’s media reports that the women involved may team up and take legal action.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
avier
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:12 am

If they had camera’s around the common wash basin area (non-private area), they could probably see who entered and exited from the toilet cubicles, if that’s where the delivery took place. And it’d be easier to narrow down the characteristics of the mother.
Last edited by avier on Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Toinou
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:14 am

Reading some reactions here, I think there still is a long way to go...

Frankly, I'm wondering what happened. They must have known this would turn into a PR disaster. My hypothesis is that someone in the airport management panicked and acted in haste, trying to solve the immediate problem and not thinking much to potential consequences.
 
kriskarch
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:27 am

This is disgusting. As I always wanted to fly QR because of their inflight service, I was always avoiding it because of political reasons. I guess I was right and I really hope after that event more people will think twice before booking flight with them.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11162
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:39 am

Could we please just discuss the topic and keep off topic and personal comments towards other users out of the discussion, if you have nothing to add move on to the next topic
Forum Moderator
 
cam747
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:25 pm

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:43 am

I am stunned at some of the posts on here defending the Qatari's actions. I find some of the responses quite repulsive.

There were many other ways of handling this matter, but what has been reported to have happened to these women is barbaric, if this was my daughter or wife I would be absolutely livid.

The Australian Federal Police are now involved, and the fact that our Foreign Minister (who is quite measured, and rarely makes public statements) has come out so strongly on this, I think its safe to assume what has been reported by the women, did actually happen. There were lots of witnesses and some of the women involved have given statements to the media, albeit remaining anonymous as is completely understandable.

AVFCdownunder wrote:
The only person named in the article wasn't actually examined. I doubt if there was an arbitrary examination of every female who may have had access to the toilet in question. They would have been quite understandably questioned as potential witnesses; did they see anything unusual, anyone in distress etc? CCTV footage and accounts from cleaning staff should narrow down a fairly tight time-frame as to when the baby was left there. Only people using that toilet around that time would be of interest, further more, people's demeanour, body language and responses to questioning would also be a big clue whether they'd just been through a traumatic incident such as this. I'd say a physical exam would only follow as a last resort in limited cases, to clear up any doubt.


Last resort in limited cases???....they examined the genitals of all 13 women on a flight - one of the women said there was no questioning, and no information given to them about why. That must have been terrifying. (Source https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-26/qatar-airport-baby-women-invasive-search/12812364)
 
smi0006
Posts: 2580
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:13 am

qf789 wrote:
Could we please just discuss the topic and keep off topic and personal comments towards other users out of the discussion, if you have nothing to add move on to the next topic


I think we need to be open to the discussion on the morality of this issue, and challenging each other’s thoughts and ideas. The discussion may move out of airlines and aviation, but it’s fundamental to the discussion, and bringing the horrors of these sorts of actions into daylight. We can’t simply remove the nature of the event from the discussion - that’s a disservice to the woman, abs many others who were impacted - not to mention people who may now not to choose to fly with Qatar. As we all know, we have a choice of the carriers, and ports we spend our $$s with.
 
Caymanair
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:24 am

Clearly this incident has caused an emotional response from many. That's usually the least useful prism through which one can view a situation in order to form an opinion.

It appears the Qatari authorities may have acted insensitively. They might be excused somewhat... I imagine those at the airport at the time are not the most senior decision makers and may not have had appropriate training for this situation. That is not an exclusively Qatari problem... there are numerous examples of cases where authorities in other countries are equally insensitive. Australia is no exception. Hell... have you ever gone through US immigration???

A newborn was left for dead in an airport bathroom. That is a serious infraction ethically, morally, and legally. Authorities had every right to use the options provided under the law to identify the mother. In an airport I can imagine that time would've been of the essence. The idea they could have taken DNA samples and then, at some more convenient date in the future, reach out to the mother in another jurisdiction is ridiculous. As is the idea that Qatar Airways should be boycotted because authorities investigated (again within the bounds of the law) a serious criminal issue.

There should certainly be more stringent protocol to deal with these situations, should they arise, but as it is likely not common for newborn babies to be dumped pre-flight I wouldn't expect such protocol to be in place at the moment in time. Is anyone aware of protocols in other jurisdictions? My automatic reaction, personally, might be to shut down all movement in and out of the airport until the mother is located... I can see how examining 13 women might be seen as a more efficient solution to some.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8467
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Female passengers removed from QR flight for invasive examination

Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:38 am

Caryjack wrote:
bcworld wrote:
Story breaking in Australia tonight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... p-searched

Essentially, it's alleged that after an aborted premature foetus was discovered in the Airport (DOH) women were removed from a SYD bound flight and subject to medical examination.

Seems like a pretty shocking set of events if happened as described.

This from your link....

“At this time, the newborn infant remains unidentified, but is safe under the professional care of medical and social workers,” the statement said.

Did I miss something?


You’re not missing anything now, but the article was updated. The original reports (on Sunday Australia time) was that there was a miscarried fetus, but by Monday morning (Australia time) that was updated to saying the baby was alive and well.
Worked Hard, Flew Right

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos