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c933103
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China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:46 pm

According to Chinese government, as reported on [1],
Raytheon, Boeing Defense, and Lockheed Martin will be subject to "sanction", which details still isn't published, die to the three companies involvement in arm sales to Taiwan.
According to additional news report [2], possible relations these companies have with China in term of civil aviation includes Lockheed Martin have sold some flight sim to Chinese airlines, Raytheon's ATC system is now currently in use in Hong Kong, and that they might have sourced materials like rare earth metal from China.
According to these reports, China have previously annoumced sanctions against other companies involved in selling military equipment to Taiwan, but no details have been published publicly for those sanctions yet.
-----
With the lack of details, I guess it make some sense for some to see such sanction as an empty threat? Not to mention these companies don't really dependent on China for much if any thing. But how will China pick their future ATC system.supplier?

1: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... ver-taiwan
2: https://hk.appledaily.com/china/2020102 ... BDXNMO6FE/
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Antaras
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:15 pm

Most likely the China PR will slap themselves with the sanction?!

It is hard to find a good replacement of the services which have been provided by the banned companies.
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Rossiya747
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:29 pm

Dunno they're really just cutting of their own chances of stealing more technology from these companies
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Noshow
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:55 pm

Their Huawei retaliation obviously.
 
trex8
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:27 pm

Raytheon and especially Lockheed will lose no sleep at all on sanctions.

Boeing Commercial may have some airliner orders delayed but frankly are the Chinese going to give everything to Airbus and have no pricing leverage, not likely. Same with Pratt (now part of Raytheon) and engines.

Beijing is a paper tiger. And as a Pentagon Foreign Military Sales contract (which these recent sales to Taiwan have been, the OEMs have zero say in whether they happen as the contracting entity and customer is the Pentagon, Taiwan may be the end user, but it is not the customer)
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:50 pm

The new HKG ATMS is Raytheon product (AutoTrac III)
 
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:42 pm

trex8 wrote:
Raytheon and especially Lockheed will lose no sleep at all on sanctions.

Boeing Commercial may have some airliner orders delayed but frankly are the Chinese going to give everything to Airbus and have no pricing leverage, not likely. Same with Pratt (now part of Raytheon) and engines.

Beijing is a paper tiger. And as a Pentagon Foreign Military Sales contract (which these recent sales to Taiwan have been, the OEMs have zero say in whether they happen as the contracting entity and customer is the Pentagon, Taiwan may be the end user, but it is not the customer)


They did not sanction Boeing Commercial. They only sanctioned the Boeing- Defense(Military). So Beijing is OK with commercial aircraft and systems from the rest of Boeing.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:21 pm

I will use the CCP's favorite phrase. "They are just throwing a stone at their own foot".

The effect (on anything) is ultimately slim to nil. Note that CCP doesn't even dare sanctioning Boeing Commercial. For companies like Raytheon I would say the restriction of exporting anything sensitive to China including HK (thanks to the HK Autonomy Act) already covered any lost of business anyway.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:20 pm

So what are all the nay-sayers views of the Trump sanctions (and opposed by most US corporations) having to say about the random and destructive sanctions and tariffs imposed on US consumers and manufacturers? ps - I agree the Chinese sanctions may not be well advised.
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Noshow
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:26 pm

It looks like only the beginning of US- and western trade with China will become much trickier. Many new conflict areas and topics are brewing. I doesn't look like ending soon but potentially escalating.
 
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zeke
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:50 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
I will use the CCP's favorite phrase. "They are just throwing a stone at their own foot".

The effect (on anything) is ultimately slim to nil. Note that CCP doesn't even dare sanctioning Boeing Commercial. For companies like Raytheon I would say the restriction of exporting anything sensitive to China including HK (thanks to the HK Autonomy Act) already covered any lost of business anyway.


It could be as simple as the PRC thinks it controls all Chinese trade including the ROC (PRC one China policy) , and by the PRC placing sanctions on these companies it then becomes an international incident when the US sells the ROC the F-16s etc.
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trex8
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:41 am

zeke wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
I will use the CCP's favorite phrase. "They are just throwing a stone at their own foot".

The effect (on anything) is ultimately slim to nil. Note that CCP doesn't even dare sanctioning Boeing Commercial. For companies like Raytheon I would say the restriction of exporting anything sensitive to China including HK (thanks to the HK Autonomy Act) already covered any lost of business anyway.


It could be as simple as the PRC thinks it controls all Chinese trade including the ROC (PRC one China policy) , and by the PRC placing sanctions on these companies it then becomes an international incident when the US sells the ROC the F-16s etc.



PRC since 1979 when US recognized Beijing has said US must stop arms sales to Taiwan/ROC. US law as expressed in the Taiwan Relations Act passed by Congress after switch diplomatic relations requires the US government to provide whatever is necessary to provide for the self defence of Taiwan. Subsequent executive actions in the early 80s committed US to reducing arms sales but in context of a peaceful resolution of the Taiwan China issue. Subsequent US executive actions have also promised no fixed date to end sales or any consultation with China about such sales.
PRC lawyers obviously weren't that great in the 80s and did not understand that executive actions can change with the whim of each change of administration, but US law is law till changed, repealed! It's like the difference between an internationally agreed legally binding treaty and a specific policy by a specific governing administration. A binding legal contract versus assurances.

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/taiwanarms
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/the- ... formation/

The "failure" of the PRC to sanction Boeing in its entirety just shows how toothless any sanction from Beijing will be. What exactly has Boeing Defense sold to the PRC since 1989???? Maybe the Space division (which is now part of Defense) has had some sales, but those aren't likely to be anything big going forward given present US China "competition".

Boeing just got another potential 2.4 billion order, 400 coastal defence harpoon missiles on top of the SLAM ERs.
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... -states-17

There will be top up orders from Taiwan for more AH64E Apache Guardians to add to the 30 they took delivery of earlier this decade.(Those 60 something AH1Ws delivered in the 90s will only last so long). That should be good for a few billion in a few years.
There's also several hundred harpoons Boeing has delivered over the years for the ROCNavy and Air Force they could upgrade to Block 2 standard also!

I'm betting on CI announcing a large 777F order soon to replace the rest of their 744Fs. That should be good for a dozen or more on top of the 6 already ordered to replace the 18 747s. There's gotta be some good reason for the Taipei government to still have its control on 1/3 of the airline! 3/4 of a years production of 777s for Boeing Commercial in these times will be a very nice icing on the cake on top of all those Harpoon/Slams.

And oh when do they break ground on that TSMC $12 billion 5nm wafer plant in the US? This one will happen unlike the Foxconn scam in Wisconsin!
 
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zeke
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Re: China to sanction Lockheed Martin, Boeing Defense, Raytheon: Impact on civil aviation?

Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:37 am

I agree with everything you are saying, my point was from a PRC viewpoint, they have rule of law over the ROC, and the sanctions prevent the ROC from making such purchases.

It could be the catalyst for the PRC to intercept and/or destroy items sanctioned.
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