Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4799
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:49 pm

Southwest typically offers what in motel lingo would be called a 3 star experience, along with 5 star avoidance of hassle. They often are a little more expensive than the cheapest available seats on legacy airlines. But you can pay anywhere from less than Southwest to two or more times as much for a legacy Y seat and get utterly crappy service and comfort. It is not true that people won't pay more for better service. It would be useful if Orbitz etc would rate the comfort and hassle level of typical airline Y seats.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
departedflights
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:59 am

I am so confused as to how this conversation about Southwest's CEO possibly seeking concessions from their employees has turned into a debate about whether or not the airlines need to be re-regulated.
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
775899
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:12 am

departedflights wrote:
I am so confused as to how this conversation about Southwest's CEO possibly seeking concessions from their employees has turned into a debate about whether or not the airlines need to be re-regulated.


Because it’s typical a.net

This thread has run its course IMO. Probably time to lock it.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:18 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I am so confused as to how this conversation about Southwest's CEO possibly seeking concessions from their employees has turned into a debate about whether or not the airlines need to be re-regulated.


Because it’s typical a.net

This thread has run its course IMO. Probably time to lock it.


Because what he is saying goes to the entire industry and at least in part that is what he's referring to. There's no shortage of villains in this mess. Politicians that have no concrete sensible, strategy for dealing with a once in a lifetime event, airlines that have built unprofitable or barely profitable capacity making any downturn in demand to turn into this cluster, customers that don't seem to understand "you get what you pay for" and workers that think they're special enough to get a paycheck for sitting on their butt.

You couldn't write fiction this good.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:30 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I am so confused as to how this conversation about Southwest's CEO possibly seeking concessions from their employees has turned into a debate about whether or not the airlines need to be re-regulated.


Because it’s typical a.net

This thread has run its course IMO. Probably time to lock it.


Because what he is saying goes to the entire industry and at least in part that is what he's referring to. There's no shortage of villains in this mess. Politicians that have no concrete sensible, strategy for dealing with a once in a lifetime event, airlines that have built unprofitable or barely profitable capacity making any downturn in demand to turn into this cluster, customers that don't seem to understand "you get what you pay for" and workers that think they're special enough to get a paycheck for sitting on their butt.

You couldn't write fiction this good.


This right here "airlines that have built unprofitable or barely profitable capacity making any downturn in demand to turn into this cluster" airlines all piling on into a few markets trying to drive each other out instead of creating their own individual markets. If 7 airlines wouldn't be flying from NYC and BOS to Florida then the prices wouldn't be rock bottom and airlines wouldn't be losing money. Southwest going into ORD amplifies this. Southwest has be profitable for years not flying into ORD so why throw good money after bad just to say you serve both airports in Chicago.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10724
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
Southwest has be profitable for years not flying into ORD so why throw good money after bad just to say you serve both airports in Chicago.

...or the Wall Street financiers who finance them have continued to push the growth mantra, so if WN is already at MDW and profitable, they must still grow to satisfy the financial Gods, as stated, there are many heads around on which blame can and should fall.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 565
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:43 pm

par13del wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Southwest has be profitable for years not flying into ORD so why throw good money after bad just to say you serve both airports in Chicago.

...or the Wall Street financiers who finance them have continued to push the growth mantra, so if WN is already at MDW and profitable, they must still grow to satisfy the financial Gods, as stated, there are many heads around on which blame can and should fall.



I think you are on to one of the more compelling reasons for re-regulation. It would act to suppress Wall Street's next quarter mentality which is ruining much of America's companies. And then management rewards itself with stock options. Greed is not good.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    ZazuPIT
    Posts: 161
    Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:30 pm

    I suspect long term WN begins going to start looking a lot more like hub-and-spoke carriers. Some of that was evident in the cities the opted to serve from ORD. I suspect the top 10 or so stations for WN will grow more spokes, and less P2P flying or multiple stop flights. Regardless, I think people are way too optimistic travel returns next year. Look at what is happening in Europe. The U.S. is close behind. Carriers, even Southwest, are all in danger of bankruptcy. If we hit 2019 flying levels by 2024, I will be pleasantly surprised.
     
    Lootess
    Posts: 610
    Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:52 am

    ZazuPIT wrote:
    I suspect long term WN begins going to start looking a lot more like hub-and-spoke carriers. Some of that was evident in the cities the opted to serve from ORD. I suspect the top 10 or so stations for WN will grow more spokes, and less P2P flying or multiple stop flights. Regardless, I think people are way too optimistic travel returns next year. Look at what is happening in Europe. The U.S. is close behind. Carriers, even Southwest, are all in danger of bankruptcy. If we hit 2019 flying levels by 2024, I will be pleasantly surprised.


    Yep, WN is surely not fighting the plane turnaround battle anymore. Get into airports like ORD and figure out how to get as many butts in seats as they can because presently there isn't enough being garnered to sustain the operation. If things continue to be this drab, we'll be back here talking about bankruptcy next year.
     
    User avatar
    Midwestindy
    Posts: 6076
    Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:37 am

    Lootess wrote:
    ZazuPIT wrote:
    I suspect long term WN begins going to start looking a lot more like hub-and-spoke carriers. Some of that was evident in the cities the opted to serve from ORD. I suspect the top 10 or so stations for WN will grow more spokes, and less P2P flying or multiple stop flights. Regardless, I think people are way too optimistic travel returns next year. Look at what is happening in Europe. The U.S. is close behind. Carriers, even Southwest, are all in danger of bankruptcy. If we hit 2019 flying levels by 2024, I will be pleasantly surprised.


    Yep, WN is surely not fighting the plane turnaround battle anymore. Get into airports like ORD and figure out how to get as many butts in seats as they can because presently there isn't enough being garnered to sustain the operation. If things continue to be this drab, we'll be back here talking about bankruptcy next year.


    The "B" word is thrown around extremely loosely, WN is not filing for bankruptcy next year. They are ending Q4 with $13B in liquidity & a projected burn rate of $11M/day, you can do the math from there. Even assuming no further recovery in demand in 2021 with a vaccine, and no further financing activity, they've got plenty of cash to avoid bankruptcy.

    Consensus in Wall Street is WN will turn a profit in Q2 or Q3 of next year, given they only need traffic at 55-60% of 2019 to generate a profit
    https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/ ... v/earnings
    ORD & IND

    AA & DL
     
    775899
    Posts: 1033
    Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:21 am

    ZazuPIT wrote:
    I suspect long term WN begins going to start looking a lot more like hub-and-spoke carriers. Some of that was evident in the cities the opted to serve from ORD. I suspect the top 10 or so stations for WN will grow more spokes, and less P2P flying or multiple stop flights.


    I think we were already seeing this even pre-COVID. It felt like more and more, connections were being routed through certain stations.
     
    Lootess
    Posts: 610
    Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:19 am

    Midwestindy wrote:
    Lootess wrote:
    ZazuPIT wrote:
    I suspect long term WN begins going to start looking a lot more like hub-and-spoke carriers. Some of that was evident in the cities the opted to serve from ORD. I suspect the top 10 or so stations for WN will grow more spokes, and less P2P flying or multiple stop flights. Regardless, I think people are way too optimistic travel returns next year. Look at what is happening in Europe. The U.S. is close behind. Carriers, even Southwest, are all in danger of bankruptcy. If we hit 2019 flying levels by 2024, I will be pleasantly surprised.


    Yep, WN is surely not fighting the plane turnaround battle anymore. Get into airports like ORD and figure out how to get as many butts in seats as they can because presently there isn't enough being garnered to sustain the operation. If things continue to be this drab, we'll be back here talking about bankruptcy next year.


    The "B" word is thrown around extremely loosely, WN is not filing for bankruptcy next year. They are ending Q4 with $13B in liquidity & a projected burn rate of $11M/day, you can do the math from there. Even assuming no further recovery in demand in 2021 with a vaccine, and no further financing activity, they've got plenty of cash to avoid bankruptcy.

    Consensus in Wall Street is WN will turn a profit in Q2 or Q3 of next year, given they only need traffic at 55-60% of 2019 to generate a profit
    https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/ ... v/earnings


    That liquidity has a cost, they didn’t get new money out of thin air. Second there were people at the onset of the pandemic singing that WN would still make a profit this year, grasping for straws that they no way could take a loss.

    If anything furloughs will happen if the bleeding doesn’t stop and that will be a turning point.
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9433
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:21 am

    BNAMealer wrote:
    ZazuPIT wrote:
    I suspect long term WN begins going to start looking a lot more like hub-and-spoke carriers. Some of that was evident in the cities the opted to serve from ORD. I suspect the top 10 or so stations for WN will grow more spokes, and less P2P flying or multiple stop flights.


    I think we were already seeing this even pre-COVID. It felt like more and more, connections were being routed through certain stations.


    Watch the flight count at DEN. It's a very big O&D market but they must be thinking about more connecting traffic. Hubs are great enablers for certain things.
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9433
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:25 am

    Midwestindy wrote:
    Consensus in Wall Street is WN will turn a profit in Q2 or Q3 of next year, given they only need traffic at 55-60% of 2019 to generate a profit
    https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/ ... v/earnings


    Airline earnings estimates are broadly functions of passenger numbers, avg fares, labor costs, and fuel prices. How much certainty can be attached to any of those things into next year?
     
    jplatts
    Posts: 4389
    Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:31 pm

    ZazuPIT wrote:
    I suspect long term WN begins going to start looking a lot more like hub-and-spoke carriers. Some of that was evident in the cities the opted to serve from ORD. I suspect the top 10 or so stations for WN will grow more spokes, and less P2P flying or multiple stop flights. Regardless, I think people are way too optimistic travel returns next year. Look at what is happening in Europe. The U.S. is close behind. Carriers, even Southwest, are all in danger of bankruptcy. If we hit 2019 flying levels by 2024, I will be pleasantly surprised.


    While I agree that WN might move to a primarily hub-and-spoke model, WN will probably still continue to have some nonstop routes to spokes from a few non-hub stations.

    There are still some spokes in the Midwest, Northeast, Southeast, and Puerto Rico such as BHM, CMH, IND, MKE, PHL, PIT, PVD, and SJU that still have enough demand for nonstop service to MCO on WN based on the number of passengers that WN carried on MCO-BHM/CMH/IND/MKE/PHL/PIT/PVD/SJU nonstop flights in Summer 2020, even with significantly decreased demand for air travel since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic.

    There is also still enough demand for nonstop service to the Pacific Northwest and Southern California from OAK, SJC, and SMF on WN, even though demand to the Pacific Northwest and Southern California from OAK, SJC, and SMF on WN is significantly down from pre-COVID-19 levels.

    While OAK, MCO, SMF, and SJC are not full hubs for WN, I probably expect WN to continue to have nonstop service to some spokes from OAK, MCO, SMF, and SJC with the amount of demand that is still there to some of the spokes from OAK, MCO, SMF, and SJC on WN. WN is also still connecting some passengers between the Pacific Northwest and Southern California through OAK, SMF, and SJC.

    WN will also probably keep AUS-DCA nonstop service due to AUS-DCA being a beyond-perimeter nonstop route that WN operates using a beyond-perimeter slot exemption. WN also has a large presence in the DC/Baltimore market due to its BWI hub along with FF bases in both AUS and DC to support AUS-DCA nonstop service on WN.
     
    User avatar
    Midwestindy
    Posts: 6076
    Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:48 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    Midwestindy wrote:
    Consensus in Wall Street is WN will turn a profit in Q2 or Q3 of next year, given they only need traffic at 55-60% of 2019 to generate a profit
    https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/ ... v/earnings


    Airline earnings estimates are broadly functions of passenger numbers, avg fares, labor costs, and fuel prices. How much certainty can be attached to any of those things into next year?


    It's a consensus of every analysts estimates, it's not one estimate. So I'd obviously put more weight in those numbers from professionals, over claims WN will file for bankruptcy next year with no numerical reasoning.
    ORD & IND

    AA & DL
     
    frmrCapCadet
    Posts: 4799
    Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:49 pm

    WN's modal is predominately a web, not hub(s) and spokes. All three are metaphors, not literal. The legacies are mostly hub and spokes, but oddly, long distance non-stop are not descriptive of any of the three terms. The actual algorithms airlines use are far more complicated than web, hub, spoke.
    Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
     
    KarlB737
    Posts: 2929
    Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:18 pm

    slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
    it looks like they just have way too many employees for current demand.


    I've read nothing here of "way too many" airplanes. Maybe Southwest should have a smaller fleet. Maybe instead of parking planes how about selling some instead of always JUST cutting staff.
     
    Miamiairport
    Posts: 828
    Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:27 pm

    KarlB737 wrote:
    slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
    it looks like they just have way too many employees for current demand.


    I've read nothing here of "way too many" airplanes. Maybe Southwest should have a smaller fleet. Maybe instead of parking planes how about selling some instead of always JUST cutting staff.


    And who would want or need those planes? Not to mention when demand returns going back and acquiring new planes would be hugely expensive. It's not like WN can go on Craiglist and list Planes for Sale.
     
    freakyrat
    Posts: 2240
    Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:45 pm

    WN has axed 1100 N/S routes out of various cities until March of 2021. I think this is the right thing to do and will keep them going until we get enough people vaccinared and flying again. Southwest has the strogest balance sheet in the business and enough liquidity to see them through this just fine.
     
    rbavfan
    Posts: 3777
    Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:07 pm

    departedflights wrote:
    I am so confused as to how this conversation about Southwest's CEO possibly seeking concessions from their employees has turned into a debate about whether or not the airlines need to be re-regulated.


    Because every few years we get to the "We need to re-regulate" crowds return. It's like the Boeing 757 should be updated and restarted crowd. Get over it. re-regulation will jump prices again.
     
    ScottB
    Posts: 7345
    Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:29 am

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    par13del wrote:
    klm617 wrote:
    Southwest has be profitable for years not flying into ORD so why throw good money after bad just to say you serve both airports in Chicago.

    ...or the Wall Street financiers who finance them have continued to push the growth mantra, so if WN is already at MDW and profitable, they must still grow to satisfy the financial Gods, as stated, there are many heads around on which blame can and should fall.


    I think you are on to one of the more compelling reasons for re-regulation. It would act to suppress Wall Street's next quarter mentality which is ruining much of America's companies. And then management rewards itself with stock options. Greed is not good.


    If any of you think that WN is flying to ORD for bragging rights (i.e. "just to say you serve both airports in Chicago") or to "grow to satisfy the financial Gods" then you have utterly no clue what's going on in the industry right now. WN is going into ORD, PSP, COS, IAH, JAN, MTJ, and probably some other new stations because they are chasing the few people who want or need to fly right now. WN, like virtually every other airline on the planet right now, has too many aircraft and employees for the level of demand during a global pandemic and the varied government responses. Management would prefer to avoid furloughs if possible, so they're trying to find people who will buy tickets on WN -- and going into new airports helps to accomplish that.

    In July, WN operated about 50 fewer daily departures from MDW than in July of 2019. Adding 19 departures from ORD doesn't get them back to their previous size in Chicago, but it does help them attract passengers who prefer to use ORD. They were down by over 60 daily departures at HOU from July 2019 to July 2020. A dozen or so flights from IAH won't restore their previous size in Houston.

    This is NOT about growing the airline, although it might help with that several years down the line. This is about using the resources they're already paying for to try to grab some more revenue and reduce the bleeding.
     
    slcdeltarumd11
    Posts: 5111
    Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:01 am

    ScottB wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    par13del wrote:
    ...or the Wall Street financiers who finance them have continued to push the growth mantra, so if WN is already at MDW and profitable, they must still grow to satisfy the financial Gods, as stated, there are many heads around on which blame can and should fall.


    I think you are on to one of the more compelling reasons for re-regulation. It would act to suppress Wall Street's next quarter mentality which is ruining much of America's companies. And then management rewards itself with stock options. Greed is not good.


    This is NOT about growing the airline, although it might help with that several years down the line. This is about using the resources they're already paying for to try to grab some more revenue and reduce the bleeding.


    100% no one's adds right now is about growth. Everyone is just trying to reduce the bleeding on assets they already have and paying for .
     
    DaCubbyBearBar
    Posts: 240
    Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:19 pm

    freakyrat wrote:
    WN has axed 1100 N/S routes out of various cities until March of 2021. I think this is the right thing to do and will keep them going until we get enough people vaccinared and flying again. Southwest has the strogest balance sheet in the business and enough liquidity to see them through this just fine.

    1100 routes? I think it is just 100 according to ENILRIA’s weekly update.
    I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
     
    Miamiairport
    Posts: 828
    Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:04 pm

    ScottB wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    par13del wrote:
    ...or the Wall Street financiers who finance them have continued to push the growth mantra, so if WN is already at MDW and profitable, they must still grow to satisfy the financial Gods, as stated, there are many heads around on which blame can and should fall.


    I think you are on to one of the more compelling reasons for re-regulation. It would act to suppress Wall Street's next quarter mentality which is ruining much of America's companies. And then management rewards itself with stock options. Greed is not good.


    If any of you think that WN is flying to ORD for bragging rights (i.e. "just to say you serve both airports in Chicago") or to "grow to satisfy the financial Gods" then you have utterly no clue what's going on in the industry right now. WN is going into ORD, PSP, COS, IAH, JAN, MTJ, and probably some other new stations because they are chasing the few people who want or need to fly right now. WN, like virtually every other airline on the planet right now, has too many aircraft and employees for the level of demand during a global pandemic and the varied government responses. Management would prefer to avoid furloughs if possible, so they're trying to find people who will buy tickets on WN -- and going into new airports helps to accomplish that.

    In July, WN operated about 50 fewer daily departures from MDW than in July of 2019. Adding 19 departures from ORD doesn't get them back to their previous size in Chicago, but it does help them attract passengers who prefer to use ORD. They were down by over 60 daily departures at HOU from July 2019 to July 2020. A dozen or so flights from IAH won't restore their previous size in Houston.

    This is NOT about growing the airline, although it might help with that several years down the line. This is about using the resources they're already paying for to try to grab some more revenue and reduce the bleeding.


    And to add it's about some demand, particularly business travel not coming back to what it was. Lots of CFOs looking at how much they are saving on doing virtual. And yes "in person" is better but the suits at the top are doing a cost benefit analysis. Or clients that don't want to pay for 80% to 100% travel anymore.
     
    freakyrat
    Posts: 2240
    Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:54 pm

    DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
    freakyrat wrote:
    WN has axed 1100 N/S routes out of various cities until March of 2021. I think this is the right thing to do and will keep them going until we get enough people vaccinared and flying again. Southwest has the strogest balance sheet in the business and enough liquidity to see them through this just fine.

    1100 routes? I think it is just 100 according to ENILRIA’s weekly update.


    My mistake it is 100 routes.
     
    Lootess
    Posts: 610
    Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:13 pm

    ScottB wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    par13del wrote:
    ...or the Wall Street financiers who finance them have continued to push the growth mantra, so if WN is already at MDW and profitable, they must still grow to satisfy the financial Gods, as stated, there are many heads around on which blame can and should fall.


    I think you are on to one of the more compelling reasons for re-regulation. It would act to suppress Wall Street's next quarter mentality which is ruining much of America's companies. And then management rewards itself with stock options. Greed is not good.


    If any of you think that WN is flying to ORD for bragging rights (i.e. "just to say you serve both airports in Chicago") or to "grow to satisfy the financial Gods" then you have utterly no clue what's going on in the industry right now. WN is going into ORD, PSP, COS, IAH, JAN, MTJ, and probably some other new stations because they are chasing the few people who want or need to fly right now. WN, like virtually every other airline on the planet right now, has too many aircraft and employees for the level of demand during a global pandemic and the varied government responses. Management would prefer to avoid furloughs if possible, so they're trying to find people who will buy tickets on WN -- and going into new airports helps to accomplish that.

    In July, WN operated about 50 fewer daily departures from MDW than in July of 2019. Adding 19 departures from ORD doesn't get them back to their previous size in Chicago, but it does help them attract passengers who prefer to use ORD. They were down by over 60 daily departures at HOU from July 2019 to July 2020. A dozen or so flights from IAH won't restore their previous size in Houston.

    This is NOT about growing the airline, although it might help with that several years down the line. This is about using the resources they're already paying for to try to grab some more revenue and reduce the bleeding.


    Kelly may need to start getting WN flights on Expedia and Orbitz to get these new city customers too. Makes no sense they aren’t considering this option too if they need butts in seats. Swallow the fee and profit rather than fly the seat empty.
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9433
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:18 pm

    Lootess wrote:
    Kelly may need to start getting WN flights on Expedia and Orbitz to get these new city customers too.


    That would be a big change to the WN paradigm. Not up there with assigned seats or charging for bags, but still a big change. I suspect they don't want people to see an immediate comparison of WN fares vs. Spirit or Frontier, frankly.
     
    sprxUSA
    Posts: 582
    Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:41 pm

    They should take some of the folks they already have employed and put them into the contracted out stations. If you are already paying them, may as well quit paying a vendor for service. Granted, that's only 8-10 or so in continental US. Not in purely seasonal places if course.
    Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
     
    mcdu
    Posts: 1672
    Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:45 pm

    sprxUSA wrote:
    They should take some of the folks they already have employed and put them into the contracted out stations. If you are already paying them, may as well quit paying a vendor for service. Granted, that's only 8-10 or so in continental US. Not in purely seasonal places if course.


    It’s most often more economical to use that outsourced labor. Those contracts with the vendors often can’t be broken easily or have penalties if you do. The overall cost of a vendor should be less than using your own staff. Unfortunately that is what drives furloughs of company employees as they are the highest cost and easiest to separate. It’s not a great solution to furlough your own. But when survival of the company is in question a furlough can help in that survival.
     
    kalvado
    Posts: 3114
    Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:08 pm

    mcdu wrote:
    sprxUSA wrote:
    They should take some of the folks they already have employed and put them into the contracted out stations. If you are already paying them, may as well quit paying a vendor for service. Granted, that's only 8-10 or so in continental US. Not in purely seasonal places if course.


    It’s most often more economical to use that outsourced labor. Those contracts with the vendors often can’t be broken easily or have penalties if you do. The overall cost of a vendor should be less than using your own staff. Unfortunately that is what drives furloughs of company employees as they are the highest cost and easiest to separate. It’s not a great solution to furlough your own. But when survival of the company is in question a furlough can help in that survival.

    For me, it is more about how to use staff already on the payroll for ground handling. I can imagine MDW folks working in ORD. But what about remote outstations - paying relocation (and nobody knows how long those flights would last), or commuting - and then who pays for hotels? There may be not enough flying at that outstation to justify full time positions (and likely owned equipment).
     
    kiowa
    Posts: 852
    Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:59 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    Lootess wrote:
    Kelly may need to start getting WN flights on Expedia and Orbitz to get these new city customers too.


    That would be a big change to the WN paradigm. Not up there with assigned seats or charging for bags, but still a big change. I suspect they don't want people to see an immediate comparison of WN fares vs. Spirit or Frontier, frankly.



    I am not sure joining Expedia and Orbitz would work to SWA benefit either. People think they are getting a deal on the SW website and do not look any further. They may actually lose business by a comparison with other airlines.
     
    Lootess
    Posts: 610
    Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:33 pm

    kiowa wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:
    Lootess wrote:
    Kelly may need to start getting WN flights on Expedia and Orbitz to get these new city customers too.


    That would be a big change to the WN paradigm. Not up there with assigned seats or charging for bags, but still a big change. I suspect they don't want people to see an immediate comparison of WN fares vs. Spirit or Frontier, frankly.



    I am not sure joining Expedia and Orbitz would work to SWA benefit either. People think they are getting a deal on the SW website and do not look any further. They may actually lose business by a comparison with other airlines.


    Southwest already has agreements with some integrated corporate travel sites like Concur. So it's not like they don't have experience with it already.
     
    richiemo
    Posts: 260
    Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:15 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:32 pm

    [quote="Miamiairport"]COVID 19 is going to be around for awhile. I don't care what Trump says it would be years before they could roll the vaccine out to nearly 8 billion people, not to mention the many millions that will refuse to get the vaccine. Add on the impact from the economy and who knows when business travel will return and to what extent. Maybe the CEO is trying to get this thing to a head but these are the options:

    1. Never ending billion dollar bailouts to the airlines over the next several years.
    2. Tell the healthy to lead their lives as before, protect the old and sick (most of which don't travel anyway) and let herd immunity build. Since a tiny fraction of people under age 65 in good health actually need hospitalization or die from this virus seems common sense to me. But we've long passed common sense.
    3. Let airlines all file bankruptcy, try to reorganize in Chapter 11, fire lots more employees, dump leases and assets-which cause even more job losses. And those airlines that are forced into liquidation the hell with them.

    Sorry there's no option 4, 5 or 6. And I get tired of people thinking there is.[Best analysis Ive seen yet. Herd Immunity is only real short term way out/quote]
     
    AirnerdTX
    Posts: 14
    Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:27 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:38 pm

    KarlB737 wrote:
    slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
    it looks like they just have way too many employees for current demand.


    I've read nothing here of "way too many" airplanes. Maybe Southwest should have a smaller fleet. Maybe instead of parking planes how about selling some instead of always JUST cutting staff.


    Selling requires a buyer, and no one is buying.
     
    NYCVIE
    Posts: 380
    Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:43 pm

    ArcticSEA wrote:
    Miamiairport wrote:
    Or we can realize that the virus is here to stay and since man has been roaming the Earth virus have come and gone. Yes, people will die, mostly the old and infirm. But I'm sorry when was life throughout the history of man ever really fair?

    The adults in the room understand this. Talk about a new reality.


    Do they? You can lift all restrictions in the United States and you'll still see incredibly lagged demand because a) for the most part people will not intentionally put themselves in situations that exponentially heighten their chances of catching the virus and b) once the cases rise the hospitalizations rise, once the hospitals reach capacity then you start having people die (of ALL ages) who otherwise would not have just because there simply is no room. That's the whole game we've been playing since March - the virus can't be stopped at this point so the hospitalizations have to be spaced out.

    Look back at January-March. BEFORE there were ANY restrictions on movement to China and Europe demand was in the trash because people, without encouragement from government, made the decision on their own to not travel. In the first week of March, I flew JFK-VIE and JFK was empty as was my flight two weeks before any travel restrictions were enacted.
     
    kiowa
    Posts: 852
    Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:15 pm

    AirnerdTX wrote:
    KarlB737 wrote:
    slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
    it looks like they just have way too many employees for current demand.


    I've read nothing here of "way too many" airplanes. Maybe Southwest should have a smaller fleet. Maybe instead of parking planes how about selling some instead of always JUST cutting staff.


    Selling requires a buyer, and no one is buying.


    There are a lot of parked and stored airframes. I doubt the lease payments have stopped.
     
    bob75013
    Posts: 1056
    Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:30 pm

    ScottB wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    par13del wrote:
    ...or the Wall Street financiers who finance them have continued to push the growth mantra, so if WN is already at MDW and profitable, they must still grow to satisfy the financial Gods, as stated, there are many heads around on which blame can and should fall.


    I think you are on to one of the more compelling reasons for re-regulation. It would act to suppress Wall Street's next quarter mentality which is ruining much of America's companies. And then management rewards itself with stock options. Greed is not good.


    If any of you think that WN is flying to ORD for bragging rights (i.e. "just to say you serve both airports in Chicago") or to "grow to satisfy the financial Gods" then you have utterly no clue what's going on in the industry right now. WN is going into ORD, PSP, COS, IAH, JAN, MTJ, and probably some other new stations because they are chasing the few people who want or need to fly right now. WN, like virtually every other airline on the planet right now, has too many aircraft and employees for the level of demand during a global pandemic and the varied government responses. Management would prefer to avoid furloughs if possible, so they're trying to find people who will buy tickets on WN -- and going into new airports helps to accomplish that.

    In July, WN operated about 50 fewer daily departures from MDW than in July of 2019. Adding 19 departures from ORD doesn't get them back to their previous size in Chicago, but it does help them attract passengers who prefer to use ORD. They were down by over 60 daily departures at HOU from July 2019 to July 2020. A dozen or so flights from IAH won't restore their previous size in Houston.

    This is NOT about growing the airline, although it might help with that several years down the line. This is about using the resources they're already paying for to try to grab some more revenue and reduce the bleeding.


    Let's make 2 reasonable assumptions:

    1) WN will be losing money for the foreseeable future

    2) WN has fixed costs which are just that: fixed. They happen whether planes fly or not.

    With WN's entry into ORD and other places, WN believes that it will fly more passengers than needed to more than cover the variable costs of running the new stations.
    If that happens, then the new revenue will cover some of the existing fixed costs -- thus reducing the size of WN's losses.

    The strategy is all about reducing the size of the losses - and maybe adding incremental profit some years down the road
     
    jplatts
    Posts: 4389
    Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:17 pm

    bob75013 wrote:
    Let's make 2 reasonable assumptions:

    1) WN will be losing money for the foreseeable future

    2) WN has fixed costs which are just that: fixed. They happen whether planes fly or not.

    With WN's entry into ORD and other places, WN believes that it will fly more passengers than needed to more than cover the variable costs of running the new stations.
    If that happens, then the new revenue will cover some of the existing fixed costs -- thus reducing the size of WN's losses.

    The strategy is all about reducing the size of the losses - and maybe adding incremental profit some years down the road


    While WN hasn't yet added CVG-LAS nonstop service, WN might be able to operate CVG-LAS nonstop service profitably at 1x daily as a few other Midwestern markets such as MDW, CMH, IND, MCI, and STL still had enough demand for nonstop service to LAS on WN in June 2020 (based on the number of passengers that WN carried on LAS-MDW/CMH/IND/MCI/STL nonstop flights in June 2020), even with significantly decreased demand for air travel during the COVID-19 pandemic.

    WN might also be able to easily fill CVG-LAS nonstop flights if it adds CVG-LAS nonstop service with the amount of demand to LAS that is still there on WN from other markets that still have daily nonstop service to LAS on WN.

    WN would also clearly be at an advantage over DL and G4 on the CVG-LAS route if it adds CVG-LAS nonstop service with WN having a hub at LAS and with the connections that WN would be offering to California through LAS.

    Even if WN as a whole is unprofitable, WN adding CVG-LAS nonstop service would bring in additional revenue for WN along with additional connecting feed onto its LAS-California nonstop flights.
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9433
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:16 pm

    Notices for first furloughs in Southwest history. That's the ground rumbling underfoot.

    CHICAGO (Reuters) - Southwest Airlines LUV.N said on Friday it has sent furlough notices to 42 parts inventory workers after the union representing them refused to discuss pay cuts the airline argues it needs from all employees to offset $1 billion in overstaffing costs.

    The furloughs, the first in the low-cost carrier’s 49-year history, would take place in January unless Washington passes “a satisfactory” extension of a payroll support program for airlines, Southwest said.


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sout ... 7M2LQ?il=0
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9433
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:21 pm

    bob75013 wrote:
    Let's make 2 reasonable assumptions:

    1) WN will be losing money for the foreseeable future

    2) WN has fixed costs which are just that: fixed. They happen whether planes fly or not.

    With WN's entry into ORD and other places, WN believes that it will fly more passengers than needed to more than cover the variable costs of running the new stations.
    If that happens, then the new revenue will cover some of the existing fixed costs -- thus reducing the size of WN's losses.

    The strategy is all about reducing the size of the losses - and maybe adding incremental profit some years down the road


    In the long run all costs are variable - said a boss of mine. It depends on hard execs want to push. Aircraft for replacement/growth don't get ordered. Salaried and hourly admin staff don't get replaced.
    Planes get sold. Aircraft leases don't get renewed. Gate leases don't get renewed... Chapter 11 (and I'm not arguing WN is headed to Ch 11!) can greatly accelerate that process. WN needs to keep an eye not just on cash burn but what competitors are doing to cut fixed costs.
     
    Tack
    Posts: 217
    Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:37 am

    bob75013 wrote:
    ScottB wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:

    I think you are on to one of the more compelling reasons for re-regulation. It would act to suppress Wall Street's next quarter mentality which is ruining much of America's companies. And then management rewards itself with stock options. Greed is not good.


    If any of you think that WN is flying to ORD for bragging rights (i.e. "just to say you serve both airports in Chicago") or to "grow to satisfy the financial Gods" then you have utterly no clue what's going on in the industry right now. WN is going into ORD, PSP, COS, IAH, JAN, MTJ, and probably some other new stations because they are chasing the few people who want or need to fly right now. WN, like virtually every other airline on the planet right now, has too many aircraft and employees for the level of demand during a global pandemic and the varied government responses. Management would prefer to avoid furloughs if possible, so they're trying to find people who will buy tickets on WN -- and going into new airports helps to accomplish that.

    In July, WN operated about 50 fewer daily departures from MDW than in July of 2019. Adding 19 departures from ORD doesn't get them back to their previous size in Chicago, but it does help them attract passengers who prefer to use ORD. They were down by over 60 daily departures at HOU from July 2019 to July 2020. A dozen or so flights from IAH won't restore their previous size in Houston.

    This is NOT about growing the airline, although it might help with that several years down the line. This is about using the resources they're already paying for to try to grab some more revenue and reduce the bleeding.


    Let's make 2 reasonable assumptions:

    1) WN will be losing money for the foreseeable future

    2) WN has fixed costs which are just that: fixed. They happen whether planes fly or not.

    With WN's entry into ORD and other places, WN believes that it will fly more passengers than needed to more than cover the variable costs of running the new stations.
    If that happens, then the new revenue will cover some of the existing fixed costs -- thus reducing the size of WN's losses.

    The strategy is all about reducing the size of the losses - and maybe adding incremental profit some years down the road


    I don’t think any of us are disputing what their strategy is. However I do believe a number of us are doubting that it will get them close to zero cost fast enough. Unfortunately, along with the redeployment of assets, I feel furloughs have to be in the mix. Evidently WN recognizes that too with the distribution of the first batch of WARN letters. They’ve always been good at growing, now we’ll see if they’re just as adept at surviving.
     
    bob75013
    Posts: 1056
    Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:27 pm

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    bob75013 wrote:
    Let's make 2 reasonable assumptions:

    1) WN will be losing money for the foreseeable future

    2) WN has fixed costs which are just that: fixed. They happen whether planes fly or not.

    With WN's entry into ORD and other places, WN believes that it will fly more passengers than needed to more than cover the variable costs of running the new stations.
    If that happens, then the new revenue will cover some of the existing fixed costs -- thus reducing the size of WN's losses.

    The strategy is all about reducing the size of the losses - and maybe adding incremental profit some years down the road


    In the long run all costs are variable - said a boss of mine. It depends on hard execs want to push. Aircraft for replacement/growth don't get ordered. Salaried and hourly admin staff don't get replaced.
    Planes get sold. Aircraft leases don't get renewed. Gate leases don't get renewed... Chapter 11 (and I'm not arguing WN is headed to Ch 11!) can greatly accelerate that process. WN needs to keep an eye not just on cash burn but what competitors are doing to cut fixed costs.


    That 's true in the long run, but we are not talking the long run here. We are talking about the short run. How do we reduce losses this month and the next month and the next month. Bankrutpcies excepted.
     
    User avatar
    lightsaber
    Moderator
    Posts: 22054
    Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:05 am

    barney captain wrote:
    saab2000 wrote:
    lightsaber wrote:
    Regulation boosts all costs which lowers demand. Layoffs in the industry must be brutal under regulation as the market shrinks. Worse for Spirit and Allegiant, bad for SouthWest and JetBlue, better for Alaska, Delta, American, and United.

    Regulation means my average fare goes up at least $200 and pushes business to find more reasons not to send attendees to conferences and business trips. For my leisure travel, it shifts profits from metropolitan areas and business to airlines. Do certain convention areas (Chicago, Seattle to name a few) realize this kicks them out of the convention business? Aviation is one of the most elastic business (demand is a high function of costs, including time).


    I just booked a fare for Thanksgiving. In no way would I fly at regulated fares. :no: Be serious Load factors are lower in regulation, which is nice for passengers. Fares are higher... Errr.... I live in SoCal, there is no need for me to fly during vacations and I do fly SouthWest (when the fare suits me).

    Lightsaber


    The emphasis is mine but I'm curious why you spell the airline name SouthWest instead of by the correct name, Southwest? I've noticed this for quite a while and I'm curious if there's anything behind it.


    Agreed. Odd to be sure.

    Fair enough. I did it once and my spell checker now does it automatically. I just assumed it was correcting the copywrite as does on others.

    What would you think it means? I will avoid the error, I honestly didn't notice as JetBlue or others add the uppercase when a corporate title is a conjunction, but I see it is as the direction.

    Now please answer for me why it would matter? I am an enthusiast who follows many Airlines were many have interesting copywrited variation in titles and since my interest is more in engines, aerodynamics, maintenance and such it is honestly not something I think about.

    Lightsaber
    6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
     
    jplatts
    Posts: 4389
    Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:48 am

    WN has already made significant cuts at most of its stations, and I probably expect WN to continue to have a much smaller presence at most of its stations than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

    I also expect WN to be a much smaller airline than was the case prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, even with the new nonstop routes and new destinations that were recently added by WN.

    While WN hasn't yet made cuts in its flight schedules past March 10th, WN will very likely make significant cuts in its March 2021 and April 2021 flight schedules.
     
    flyiguy
    Posts: 1009
    Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:21 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:39 am

    Rumor mill is there will be a station closing announcement on Tuesday the 10th!

    FLY
    The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
     
    User avatar
    Boiler905
    Posts: 98
    Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:05 am

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:53 am

    flyiguy wrote:
    Rumor mill is there will be a station closing announcement on Tuesday the 10th!

    FLY


    My first guess is either RIC, ICT, or DSM will be closed.

    I would have said GSP until WN recently announced HOU-GSP service.
    Boiler Up
     
    gaystudpilot
    Posts: 298
    Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:14 am

    lightsaber wrote:
    barney captain wrote:
    saab2000 wrote:

    The emphasis is mine but I'm curious why you spell the airline name SouthWest instead of by the correct name, Southwest? I've noticed this for quite a while and I'm curious if there's anything behind it.


    Agreed. Odd to be sure.

    Fair enough. I did it once and my spell checker now does it automatically. I just assumed it was correcting the copywrite as does on others.

    What would you think it means? I will avoid the error, I honestly didn't notice as JetBlue or others add the uppercase when a corporate title is a conjunction, but I see it is as the direction.

    Now please answer for me why it would matter? I am an enthusiast who follows many Airlines were many have interesting copywrited variation in titles and since my interest is more in engines, aerodynamics, maintenance and such it is honestly not something I think about.

    Lightsaber


    Frankly I would prefer JetBlue choose JetBlue (corporate entity) or jetBlue (stylized branding). Just pick one and stick with it. Who else does that — other than ones that shorten the name, eg, SWISS, Delta.

    Outside of the industry I can only think of:
    - citibank (branding)
    - citi (branding)
    - Citibank (corporate entity)

    I’m all for uniform, standardized and protected corporate identities. But I also think a lot of “marketing” is over-thought BS with little proven ROI.

    Back to WN, no doubt we will be seeing additional cuts after December and sooner rather than later. Everyone chasing the same low margin holiday markets is not a sustainable strategy. Kudos for everyone trying though. 2021 will be another painful year. As I’ve stated before, the industry will be lucky to see 75% of pre-Covid demand by 2024.
     
    strfyr51
    Posts: 5106
    Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:17 am

    MIflyer12 wrote:
    Lootess wrote:
    Kelly may need to start getting WN flights on Expedia and Orbitz to get these new city customers too.


    That would be a big change to the WN paradigm. Not up there with assigned seats or charging for bags, but still a big change. I suspect they don't want people to see an immediate comparison of WN fares vs. Spirit or Frontier, frankly.

    in the present business climate? I'm not sure that WN can afford to pass by any revenue opportunity stream in the way they want to so they might have to make a few compromises for the sake of revenue and long term prosperity.
     
    jplatts
    Posts: 4389
    Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

    Re: Southwest CEO: ‘The ship is taking on water’

    Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:52 am

    Boiler905 wrote:
    flyiguy wrote:
    Rumor mill is there will be a station closing announcement on Tuesday the 10th!


    My first guess is either RIC, ICT, or DSM will be closed.


    While WN currently only has 2x to ATL from RIC and 1x less-than-daily to MCO from RIC on certain days, RIC can very likely support WN nonstop service to additional destinations such as MDW, DAL, DEN, BNA, and STL once demand for domestic air travel recovers with AA, DL, and UA all being much smaller at RIC than was the case prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

    If WN does pull out of RIC, I would likely expect WN to re-enter RIC with a bigger presence than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic once demand for domestic air travel recovers.

    RIC also carried more domestic passengers in 2019 than some stations that have a bigger WN presence such as RNO, SDF, ORF, PVD, TUS, LGB, ELP, BHM, TUL, ALB, LIT, ISP, and MAF.

    WN pulling out of ISP might also be a possibility with the significant cuts that WN made at both LGA and ISP and with LGA being a much smaller WN station than was the case prior to the COVID-19 pandemic. WN can also move its ISP-BWI/MCO nonstop flights over to LGA if WN closes ISP, and WN also has more than enough slots at LGA to do so with the significant cuts that it has already made at LGA.

    Popular Searches On Airliners.net

    Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

    Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

    Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

    Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

    Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

    Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

    Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

    Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

    Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

    Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos