Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
mcdu
Topic Author
Posts: 1656
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:03 pm

https://m.startribune.com/delta-pilot-sentenced-for-nearly-flying-plane-from-msp-while-under-influence-of-alcohol/572895711/


This punishment seems very lenient for the danger this action poses. I personally would like to see harsher penalties not only for the safety but the black eye this gives the profession.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2723
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:26 pm

His BAC was slightly over the 0.04 but below the 0.08 that is legal to operate a motor vehicle. So yes, he did break the rules and should be punished, but it isn't like he was so sloshed that he couldn't walk.

To me, the goal should be better education, rehabilitation and training to help make it safer across the profession. Swinging a stick for punishment isn't always the most effective.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
VMCA787
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:33 pm

mcdu wrote:
https://m.startribune.com/delta-pilot-sentenced-for-nearly-flying-plane-from-msp-while-under-influence-of-alcohol/572895711/


This punishment seems very lenient for the danger this action poses. I personally would like to see harsher penalties not only for the safety but the black eye this gives the profession.


Should he be sentenced to a longer period of time? What would that accomplish? Personally, I think it is extremely harsh. My guess would be he would get a reduction on appeal because they hadn't started the checklist. (Info from friends employed at DL/NW)

I agree the best remedy is treatment, education, support and rehabilitation. All are options in the HIMS program, bit if he is out of a job as the result of his flawed thinking that certainly won't be accomplished.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8500
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:37 pm

Antarius wrote:
His BAC was slightly over the 0.04 but below the 0.08 that is legal to operate a motor vehicle. So yes, he did break the rules and should be punished, but it isn't like he was so sloshed that he couldn't walk.


'Not sloshed' isn't the FAA requirement. 0.08 isn't the FAA requirement. Barely able to walk isn't the FAA requirement.

VMCA787 wrote:

Should he be sentenced to a longer period of time? What would that accomplish?


We (the U.S.) see people sentenced to 18 months in jail for stealing a winter jacket. What does that accomplish? The FAA has established a threshold over which it believes pilot action and judgment are impaired. How many lives should he be allowed to endanger? Didn't start the checklist? Do you really think he didn't have intent to fly the plane?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
His BAC was slightly over the 0.04 but below the 0.08 that is legal to operate a motor vehicle. So yes, he did break the rules and should be punished, but it isn't like he was so sloshed that he couldn't walk.


'Not sloshed' isn't the FAA requirement. 0.08 isn't the FAA requirement. Barely able to walk isn't the FAA requirement.

VMCA787 wrote:

Should he be sentenced to a longer period of time? What would that accomplish?


We (the U.S.) see people sentenced to 18 months in jail for stealing a winter jacket. What does that accomplish? The FAA has established a threshold over which it believes pilot action and judgment are impaired. How many lives should he be allowed to endanger? Didn't start the checklist? Do you really think he didn't have intent to fly the plane?


Agreed. He should never be allowed to touch the controls of an aircraft again. There are too many good pilots who will follow the rules that need jobs.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:59 pm

Antarius wrote:
His BAC was slightly over the 0.04 but below the 0.08 that is legal to operate a motor vehicle. So yes, he did break the rules and should be punished, but it isn't like he was so sloshed that he couldn't walk.

To me, the goal should be better education, rehabilitation and training to help make it safer across the profession. Swinging a stick for punishment isn't always the most effective.


The FAA limit for flying a plane is 0.04, with no drinking 8 hours before flight. Many carriers impose stricter limits. It has happened in the USA before (see Thomas Cloyd and Christopher Hughes, who got 5 and 2.5 years in prison for flying while drunk). Under the influence comes into play once the pilots take control of the plane, including calling for a pushback. AY311 (one of Aero OY/Finnair's 2 fatal crashes; the other was AY217,a CFIT) and JL8054 are examples of fatal crashes caused by intoxicated pilots. This sentence seems light though.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2723
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:11 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
His BAC was slightly over the 0.04 but below the 0.08 that is legal to operate a motor vehicle. So yes, he did break the rules and should be punished, but it isn't like he was so sloshed that he couldn't walk.


'Not sloshed' isn't the FAA requirement. 0.08 isn't the FAA requirement. Barely able to walk isn't the FAA requirement.


And no one is arguing that he is innocent and should be canonized. Yes, he broke the rule. The degree also matters.

MIflyer12 wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:

Should he be sentenced to a longer period of time? What would that accomplish?


We (the U.S.) see people sentenced to 18 months in jail for stealing a winter jacket. What does that accomplish? The FAA has established a threshold over which it believes pilot action and judgment are impaired. How many lives should he be allowed to endanger? Didn't start the checklist? Do you really think he didn't have intent to fly the plane?


This is a terrible argument. Just because we have bad sentencing guidelines and an overtly punitive judicial system doesn't mean that this makes sense across the board.

Again, the pilot is being punished. I just don't see value in punishing them more. It will not change the outcome of any other cases any more than this nor will it somehow teach this pilot more of a lesson than they have already learned now.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:14 pm

Maybe they have medical based sentencing guidelines which indicate persons found guilty of non violent offenses are not sent to jail to reduce prison population density due COVID.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pm

zeke wrote:
Maybe they have medical based sentencing guidelines which indicate persons found guilty of non violent offenses are not sent to jail to reduce prison population density due COVID.


I'm really not concerned about incarceration and truly hope he gets help for his problem. I just don't want him to ever be employed as a pilot again. Once you check-in for your trip then it should be too late for any help from the company. Calling in sick was all he needed to do.
 
User avatar
LX015
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:28 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:51 pm

Antarius wrote:
His BAC was slightly over the 0.04 but below the 0.08 that is legal to operate a motor vehicle. So yes, he did break the rules and should be punished, but it isn't like he was so sloshed that he couldn't walk.

To me, the goal should be better education, rehabilitation and training to help make it safer across the profession. Swinging a stick for punishment isn't always the most effective.



Better education? Are you serious? How many years does it take to reach the point of actually flying jets commercially, with passengers? Every pilot knows from the get go, you don't drink within 8 hours of flying. That's pretty much learned in the 1st week of flight training. If you really are stupid enough to drink within those 8 hours or drink so much alcohol the night before you fly that it can't fully pass through your system, do you deserve the privilege to be a pilot? I think not.
 
mcdu
Topic Author
Posts: 1656
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:15 pm

He broke laws and trust. There needs to be a punishment level that is a deterrent to pilots showing up over the legal limit. As it currently stands this pilot will be back in a DL cockpit very soon. It happens at all of the carriers that have HIMS programs. This pilot and the others who do the same are a being pulled along by the rest of the pilot group.

If there were repercussions that led to job loss of financial impact then perhaps less pilots would feel it acceptable to push the boundaries for alcohol before flight.

This pilot lied numerous times in this process. This was the time he was caught. How many times did he fly impaired that he hasn’t admitted?

This is not a specific airline problem, it’s an industry problem. It is a justice problem. I’m tired of these pilots giving the profession a bad name.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:19 pm

mcdu wrote:
He broke laws and trust. There needs to be a punishment level that is a deterrent to pilots showing up over the legal limit. As it currently stands this pilot will be back in a DL cockpit very soon. It happens at all of the carriers that have HIMS programs. This pilot and the others who do the same are a being pulled along by the rest of the pilot group.

If there were repercussions that led to job loss of financial impact then perhaps less pilots would feel it acceptable to push the boundaries for alcohol b
efore flight.

This pilot lied numerous times in this process. This was the time he was caught. How many times did he fly impaired that he hasn’t admitted?

This is not a specific airline problem, it’s an industry problem. It is a justice problem. I’m tired of these pilots giving the profession a bad name.


A disease isn’t simply an “industry” problem. If you are in this industry, then you mange your own professionalism and quit trying to manage others. It’s nothing but clickbait from the get go, but this is media so there ya go.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:24 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

We (the U.S.) see people sentenced to 18 months in jail for stealing a winter jacket. What does that accomplish? The FAA has established a threshold over which it believes pilot action and judgment are impaired. How many lives should he be allowed to endanger? Didn't start the checklist? Do you really think he didn't have intent to fly the plane?


Again, what is accomplished by the punishment he received? At what point do we determine if he had the intent? At check-in, when he leaves home, when he bids his schedule? There has to be some point that is definitive. Most collective bargaining agreements have the before start check or some other point in time defined as intent. You are more than welcome to have your opinion but don't ram it down my throat.


100% wrong. No one can stop you from voicing your "opinion," 'tis true. But your "opinion" isn't privileged over that of FAA regulations and *criminal* statutes that prevent drunk people -- defined as a bright-line blood-alcohol content over 0.04 -- from flying planes and endangering hundreds of lives. You've voiced your ill-informed, outrageous "opinion," and people are *absolutely* entitled to call you out on it.
 
Kraken27
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:56 pm

Over here in the UK the Courts / justice system is very strict on anyone who attempts to "perform an aviation function" whilst unfit through alcohol or illegal substances. They extend this to ground maintenance personnel too - and rightly so.

We've got more than a few airline crew enjoying a stay at Her Majesty's pleasure in UK jails. United don't have a good track record on the GLA-EWR route - both pilots have been arrested on two separate occasions for turning up over the limit on this route. Am fairly sure two of them got jail. The most infamous one was a PIA pilot who turned up at MAN having consumed the best part of a bottle of whisky the night before in his hotel room. He was sozzled and would stil have been way over the limit for driving a car hours later back on arrival in Pakistan. He claimed in Court it was normal / legal in Pakistan for pilots to be able to drink the night before operating a flight. One single drink, maybe, but he'd gone to town. Makes me kind of glad PIA are banned from EU airspace.

I was unaware the US legal system is so strict on relatively minor offences (stealing a winter coat is mentioned above). You'd never serve jail time for that in the UK - certainly not for a first offence if you had a clean record.

At the end of the day, all flight crew are onboard for safety. It's well documented that alcohol has an increased effect at altitude, so if you are pressurised at 8000ft for any length of time, even a residual amount of alcohol can be potentially dangerous.
 
atcdan
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:07 pm

We have regulations in my sector of aviation that allows anyone above a .019 and below .04 to be relieved of duty and sent home for the day with no repercussions. .04 and above you’re in for close to a year of rehab at your own expense before you can return to working planes. That year of rehab also applies if you have any off-duty alcohol related legal issue like a DWI, etc.

After you do your rehab and come back I think they do like biweekly breath tests on random days and you’re on a last-chance prohibition. You cannot drink, even off duty, for the rest of your career in a safety sensitive position with the FAA. I don’t know why they have the .00-.019 thing, but I guess if people use mouthwash before work or something there may be residue? It’s not something I would even consider. If I’m not feeling 100% after a night of drinking, just call out sick.
Tower Controller
VNY, DFW, LAX
All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way!
 
jayunited
Posts: 3027
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:14 pm

mcdu wrote:
He broke laws and trust. There needs to be a punishment level that is a deterrent to pilots showing up over the legal limit. As it currently stands this pilot will be back in a DL cockpit very soon. It happens at all of the carriers that have HIMS programs. This pilot and the others who do the same are a being pulled along by the rest of the pilot group.

If there were repercussions that led to job loss of financial impact then perhaps less pilots would feel it acceptable to push the boundaries for alcohol before flight.

This pilot lied numerous times in this process. This was the time he was caught. How many times did he fly impaired that he hasn’t admitted?

This is not a specific airline problem, it’s an industry problem. It is a justice problem. I’m tired of these pilots giving the profession a bad name.



Exactly!!!

This reminds me of the UA pilots in 2017 in Glasgow who were arrested at the airport before flying a TATL flight to EWR both were jailed for a 10 to 15 months. UA had another incident again in 2019 out of Glasgow the pilots attempting again to fly across the Atlantic over the legal limit. In both cases in Glasgow the pilots were jailed and if I'm not mistaken I believe UA fired these pilots as well.

There has to be zero tolerance for flying while under the influence, if a pilot has a problem or is struggling with alcoholism the time to speak up is before you set foot on an airplane not after you get caught. If a pilot speaks up and gets help I don't think they should be penalized I think they should be given another chance once they have gone through the programs and have demonstrated they are now in control instead of the alcohol having control over them. But if a pilot is caught attempting to fly while under the influence then decides to say I'm struggling with alcoholism there should be zero tolerance and they should never fly again.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:36 pm

mcdu wrote:
https://m.startribune.com/delta-pilot-sentenced-for-nearly-flying-plane-from-msp-while-under-influence-of-alcohol/572895711/


This punishment seems very lenient for the danger this action poses. I personally would like to see harsher penalties not only for the safety but the black eye this gives the profession.


No it's not. The pilot was not stumbling drunk. He was given an appropriate penalty.

It's this kind of garbage that really turns my crank. A non story and people are so quick to judge the person in question. Grow up and join the real world.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
mcdu
Topic Author
Posts: 1656
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:52 pm

brilondon wrote:
mcdu wrote:
https://m.startribune.com/delta-pilot-sentenced-for-nearly-flying-plane-from-msp-while-under-influence-of-alcohol/572895711/


This punishment seems very lenient for the danger this action poses. I personally would like to see harsher penalties not only for the safety but the black eye this gives the profession.


No it's not. The pilot was not stumbling drunk. He was given an appropriate penalty.

It's this kind of garbage that really turns my crank. A non story and people are so quick to judge the person in question. Grow up and join the real world.


The law isn’t “stumbling drunk”. The law is BAC. This pilot broke the law. The limit is the limit. Would you be upset if your family were killed in a crash where the pilot was over the legal limit but not stumbling drunk and his actions caused the crash?
 
johns624
Posts: 2870
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:55 pm

mcdu wrote:


This punishment seems very lenient for the danger this action poses. I personally would like to see harsher penalties not only for the safety but the black eye this gives the profession.
Not saying it doesn't happen, but people are supposed to be sentenced for their actions, not to "set an example".
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20574
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:00 pm

Kraken27 wrote:
Over here in the UK the Courts / justice system is very strict on anyone who attempts to "perform an aviation function" whilst unfit through alcohol or illegal substances. They extend this to ground maintenance personnel too - and rightly so.

We've got more than a few airline crew enjoying a stay at Her Majesty's pleasure in UK jails. United don't have a good track record on the GLA-EWR route - both pilots have been arrested on two separate occasions for turning up over the limit on this route. Am fairly sure two of them got jail. The most infamous one was a PIA pilot who turned up at MAN having consumed the best part of a bottle of whisky the night before in his hotel room. He was sozzled and would stil have been way over the limit for driving a car hours later back on arrival in Pakistan. He claimed in Court it was normal / legal in Pakistan for pilots to be able to drink the night before operating a flight. One single drink, maybe, but he'd gone to town. Makes me kind of glad PIA are banned from EU airspace.

I was unaware the US legal system is so strict on relatively minor offences (stealing a winter coat is mentioned above). You'd never serve jail time for that in the UK - certainly not for a first offence if you had a clean record.

At the end of the day, all flight crew are onboard for safety. It's well documented that alcohol has an increased effect at altitude, so if you are pressurised at 8000ft for any length of time, even a residual amount of alcohol can be potentially dangerous.

You won't serve prison time for a minor first offense. But a minor after a violent crime, yes.

The pilot won't fly and must go through support groups sessions.

A bad mistake, but not unforgivable. But anyone failing should get automatic breathalyzers at the start of the day for a year and allowed alcohol zero for two or three years (if not more). Alcoholism that is a disease only curable by abstaining once diagnosed.

I hit my monthly article limit, so I couldn't read everything. Monitor, but don't be over the top punative.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2723
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Kraken27 wrote:
Over here in the UK the Courts / justice system is very strict on anyone who attempts to "perform an aviation function" whilst unfit through alcohol or illegal substances. They extend this to ground maintenance personnel too - and rightly so.

We've got more than a few airline crew enjoying a stay at Her Majesty's pleasure in UK jails. United don't have a good track record on the GLA-EWR route - both pilots have been arrested on two separate occasions for turning up over the limit on this route. Am fairly sure two of them got jail. The most infamous one was a PIA pilot who turned up at MAN having consumed the best part of a bottle of whisky the night before in his hotel room. He was sozzled and would stil have been way over the limit for driving a car hours later back on arrival in Pakistan. He claimed in Court it was normal / legal in Pakistan for pilots to be able to drink the night before operating a flight. One single drink, maybe, but he'd gone to town. Makes me kind of glad PIA are banned from EU airspace.

I was unaware the US legal system is so strict on relatively minor offences (stealing a winter coat is mentioned above). You'd never serve jail time for that in the UK - certainly not for a first offence if you had a clean record.

At the end of the day, all flight crew are onboard for safety. It's well documented that alcohol has an increased effect at altitude, so if you are pressurised at 8000ft for any length of time, even a residual amount of alcohol can be potentially dangerous.

You won't serve prison time for a minor first offense. But a minor after a violent crime, yes.

The pilot won't fly and must go through support groups sessions.

A bad mistake, but not unforgivable. But anyone failing should get automatic breathalyzers at the start of the day for a year and allowed alcohol zero for two or three years (if not more). Alcoholism that is a disease only curable by abstaining once diagnosed.

I hit my monthly article limit, so I couldn't read everything. Monitor, but don't be over the top punative.

Lightsaber


Sums up my position well. No one is trying to say that the pilot should be let off scot free. But there is no value add in some of the draconian measures suggested either.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:08 pm

johns624 wrote:
mcdu wrote:


This punishment seems very lenient for the danger this action poses. I personally would like to see harsher penalties not only for the safety but the black eye this gives the profession.
Not saying it doesn't happen, but people are supposed to be sentenced for their actions, not to "set an example".


I've known people who lost their license after one DUI with no injuries or property damage. And it took them well over a year and thousands of dollars to get their license back. Pilotng a plane full of people is a far bigger responsibility than a single driver and the consequences of showing up intoxicated should account for it.

The FAA pulled the licenses of both Delta pilots who got distracted and flew past MSP. They lost their jobs and wings because they got caught up in a screw scheduling conversation. This Delta pilot shows up drunk and gets the figurative red carpet rolled out for him. What kind of message is that?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:19 pm

mcdu wrote:
And that is a definitely an industry issue where pilots will defend their mates that get caught abroad with the “well they would be okay in the states” defense.


I was providing facts to illustrate that people with safety sensitive roles working on the same aircraft in the UK have different BAC limits. There is no universal limit for flight crew, when flight crew learn about air law, they are taught and examined in relation to the licence they hold, they are not examined on the limits which apply in every country.

As you said the limit is the limit, and if flight crew failed a test in the UK that was still under the FAA limit, I suspect the FAA would not take action to revoke the certificate, as the limit that applied to that certificate was not broken.

None of this is an issue for me because of the lifestyle choices I make, that does not mean I try and project onto others my lifestyle choices and try and disguise that as some widespread issue.

There are normally something like 400,000 flights per year from MSP, which would mean 800,000 pilots, one person was found to be over the FAA limit, however still under the state limit which would permit them to drive to work, and you try and paint this as some sort of industry wide problem ?

That is in a state where 1 in 7 have a DUI, put that in perspective we have 1 pilot in 800,000, and in the state they would have around 115,000 out of 800,000 drivers drivers with a DUI.
Last edited by zeke on Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mcdu
Topic Author
Posts: 1656
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:38 pm

zeke wrote:
mcdu wrote:
And that is a definitely an industry issue where pilots will defend their mates that get caught abroad with the “well they would be okay in the states” defense.


I was providing facts to illustrate that people safety sensitive roles working on the same aircraft in the UK have different BAC limits. There is no universal limit for flight crew, when flight crew learn about air law, they are taught and examined in relation to the licence they hold, they are not examined on the limits which apply in every country.

As you said the limit is the limit, and if flight crew failed a test in the UK that was still under the FAA limit, I suspect the FAA would not take action to revoke the certificate, as the limit that applied to that certificate was not broken.

None of this is an issue for me because of the lifestyle choices I make, that does not mean I try and project onto others my lifestyle choices and try and disguise that as some widespread issue.

There are normally something like 400,000 flights per year from MSP, which would mean 800,000 pilots, one person was found to be over the FAA limit, however still under the state limit which would permit them to drive to work, and you try and paint this as some sort of industry wide problem ?

That is in a state where 1 in 7 have a DUI, put that in perspective we have 1 pilot in 800,000, and in the state they would have around 115,000 out of 800,000 drivers drivers with a DUI.



That was one pilot that was caught. How many times did this pilot show up at MSP and didn’t get caught.

My airline has regular recurrent training on the rules of other countries applying to you while abroad. The legal in my country is inadmissible. The HIMS program does require you to enter if you are caught by the authorities in any country regardless of the FAA limits. Again it’s splitting hairs to say you are okay in the US when you get caught abroad.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:06 am

VMCA787 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

We (the U.S.) see people sentenced to 18 months in jail for stealing a winter jacket. What does that accomplish? The FAA has established a threshold over which it believes pilot action and judgment are impaired. How many lives should he be allowed to endanger? Didn't start the checklist? Do you really think he didn't have intent to fly the plane?


Again, what is accomplished by the punishment he received? At what point do we determine if he had the intent? At check-in, when he leaves home, when he bids his schedule? There has to be some point that is definitive. Most collective bargaining agreements have the before start check or some other point in time defined as intent. You are more than welcome to have your opinion but don't ram it down my throat.


Absurd reasoning. He was on his way to the cockpit. If you don't want to have your opinion derided, don't present ridiculous arguments.
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:48 am

Do you really want the thought police roaming the streets arresting people before they do something you don’t like? His “crime” was showing up for work. He didn’t actually do it (fly drunk), yet many here want to destroy him as they sit in judgement behind their keyboard. When was the last time you heard about someone arrested for a DUI with the car keys in their hands?
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:51 am

exFWAOONW wrote:
Do you really want the thought police roaming the streets arresting people before they do something you don’t like? His “crime” was showing up for work. He didn’t actually do it (fly drunk), yet many here want to destroy him as they sit in judgement behind their keyboard. When was the last time you heard about someone arrested for a DUI with the car keys in their hands?


Plenty of people have been arrested for DUI while trying to sleep it off in their car. Why would a pilot check-in for their trip if they didn't intend on flying the plane?
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:09 am

zeke wrote:
[That is in a state where 1 in 7 have a DUI, put that in perspective we have 1 pilot in 800,000, and in the state they would have around 115,000 out of 800,000 drivers drivers with a DUI.


I liked all of the points you made. A quick note about the math, however. Per https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/report ... %20IDF.pdf, in 2017 there were just over 24,000 "impaired driving incidents" in the state of Minnesota, which has 5.6 million people. This is a rate of 0.43%. Of course, not all of those residents drive, so the rate per driver is somewhat higher.

Such a rate, applied to 800,000 drivers or pilots, would result in 3,428 incidents per year.

Perhaps you were applying a 30 year span, over which the total rate would indeed be close to 1 in 7.

Since there are virtually no pilots arrested for this problem, it is easy to see that either pilots are great at not getting caught, and/or this isn't an industry-wide problem.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
alfa164
Posts: 3710
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
Do you really want the thought police roaming the streets arresting people before they do something you don’t like? His “crime” was showing up for work. He didn’t actually do it (fly drunk), yet many here want to destroy him as they sit in judgement behind their keyboard. When was the last time you heard about someone arrested for a DUI with the car keys in their hands?

Plenty of people have been arrested for DUI while trying to sleep it off in their car. Why would a pilot check-in for their trip if they didn't intend on flying the plane?


Wrong - at least in all the jurisdictions I am familiar with. They may be charged with public intoxication, but not with DUI - unless they are driving.

And if some officer were to overstep the law and charge them with that, any decent attorney would put that case to rest.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:23 am

alfa164 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
Do you really want the thought police roaming the streets arresting people before they do something you don’t like? His “crime” was showing up for work. He didn’t actually do it (fly drunk), yet many here want to destroy him as they sit in judgement behind their keyboard. When was the last time you heard about someone arrested for a DUI with the car keys in their hands?

Plenty of people have been arrested for DUI while trying to sleep it off in their car. Why would a pilot check-in for their trip if they didn't intend on flying the plane?


Wrong - at least in all the jurisdictions I am familiar with. They may be charged with public intoxication, but not with DUI - unless they are driving.

And if some officer were to overstep the law and charge them with that, any decent attorney would put that case to rest.


Really?

https://www.fightduicharges.com/blog/ge ... le-parked/
 
pjc747
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:50 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:49 am

Antarius wrote:
To me, the goal should be better education, rehabilitation and training to help make it safer across the profession. Swinging a stick for punishment isn't always the most effective.


You cannot get a private pilot certificate without knowing that 0.04 BAC and 8 hours bottle-to-throttle is the standard.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2723
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:18 am

pjc747 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
To me, the goal should be better education, rehabilitation and training to help make it safer across the profession. Swinging a stick for punishment isn't always the most effective.


You cannot get a private pilot certificate without knowing that 0.04 BAC and 8 hours bottle-to-throttle is the standard.


I'm aware. There's also a difference between knowing the rules and continuous improvement and learning to remind and reinforce behaviors.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:43 am

ContnlEliteCMH wrote:
I liked all of the points you made. A quick note about the math, however. Per https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/report ... %20IDF.pdf, in 2017 there were just over 24,000 "impaired driving incidents" in the state of Minnesota, which has 5.6 million people. This is a rate of 0.43%. Of course, not all of those residents drive, so the rate per driver is somewhat higher.


It appears one of my earlier posts that I quoted was removed, and my reply was also removed.

I previously provided this "Drunk driving is a persistent problem for Minnesotans. According to the Office of Traffic Safety Impaired Driving Facts Report for 2017, one out of every 7 licensed drivers in Minnesota has one or more DWIs. The good news is the majority of those (58%) have only a single DWI on their record."

from https://alcolockusa.com/blog/drunk-driv ... minnesota/ which links https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/report ... %20IDF.pdf as the source

from page 18

"11.8% of Minnesota residents have a DWI
In all, 645,458 Minnesota residents have one or more impaired driving incidents on their driving record. That is 11.8% of all people living in Minnesota (using the U.S. Census Bureau’s 2017 population estimate for Minnesota).

1 in 7 licensed drivers has an incident on record
Now consider that many residents in Minnesota are too young to drive. Out of the 2017 total of licensed drivers in Minnesota, nearly 1 in 7 have one or more incidents on record, 1 in 16 have two or more, and 1 in 33 have three or more.

Each year, most DWI offenders are first-timers
There is a perception that so much of the drinking and driving problem is concentrated in a rather small subset of the population whose members are chemically dependent and who drink and drive over and over again. There is evidence to support such a perception. Forty-two percent of the 645,458 persons in the state with incidents on record have two or more incidents. Some people have a large number of incidents: 1,359 have ten or more. One person now has 27 incidents on record. Still, it is possible the perception distracts attention from the reality that most violators do not have prior incidents on record. Fifty-eight percent have only one incident. (As noted earlier, this understates the true number since a single incident may have been purged from a person’s driving record)."

1 case in MSP I cannot be see the link as claimed to be an industry wide problem when we look at the states statistics for drink drivers where the limit is twice as high than the FAA provides.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
777luver
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:51 pm

mcdu wrote:
He broke laws and trust. There needs to be a punishment level that is a deterrent to pilots showing up over the legal limit. As it currently stands this pilot will be back in a DL cockpit very soon. It happens at all of the carriers that have HIMS programs. This pilot and the others who do the same are a being pulled along by the rest of the pilot group.

If there were repercussions that led to job loss of financial impact then perhaps less pilots would feel it acceptable to push the boundaries for alcohol before flight.

This pilot lied numerous times in this process. This was the time he was caught. How many times did he fly impaired that he hasn’t admitted?

This is not a specific airline problem, it’s an industry problem. It is a justice problem. I’m tired of these pilots giving the profession a bad name.


Industry problem? You’re kidding right? Do you have any evidence to back up that statement? Otherwise it’s a very ignorant statement. Not to mention completely false.
 
Fliplot
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:23 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:36 pm

I get it that Americans are used to fake news and alternate facts but some of the comments above are borderline silly!
Pilots know the rules on alcohol period. They know the consequences too. If he entered the cockpit with this knowledge then it was intent. He endangered his passengers and his crew. Any comparison between driving and flying under the influence of alcohol is idiotic unless being a pilot is the same as being a driver?!!!
God forbid if there had been an accident this conversation would be redundant.
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:34 pm

An unfortunate incident and a clear failure of judgment, but the punishment seems to fit the near-crime. The HIMS program provides rigorous oversight and rehabilitation for pilots that have suffered from alcohol issues. We all make mistakes and this guy does not deserve to have his life ruined over one infraction. Let's not forget that Doug Parker has had 3 DUIs, served jail time, and is still at the helm of American. https://www.cnbc.com/id/17099330 ; https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna17348766
Last edited by TigerFlyer on Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
Jamake1
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 2:30 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:34 pm

[quote="VMCA787]
Alcoholism, I don't care if you agree or not, is a recognized disease. It is not a crutch or malady, it is a bonified disease. It has to be treated as such. Some raised the issue of the pilot lying. What do you expect, he is an alcoholic and is an expert at lying. That is one of the symptoms of the disease.

If you are an active pilot at a 121 carrier, I would you suggest you do some volunteer work in the HIMS committee. [/quote]

Thank you for setting the record straight on the powerlessness the disease. The story of the Northwest Airlines DC-9 captain who was apprehended in Fargo, ND about 25 years ago is published in the AA Big Book. It is a triumphant story of hitting bottom in the disease, recovery, atonement, and redemption.

https://aa-edinburgh.org.uk/pdf/bigbook ... all_11.pdf
Come fly the sun.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:26 pm

TigerFlyer wrote:
An unfortunate incident and a clear failure of judgment, but the punishment seems to fit the near-crime. The HIMS program provides rigorous oversight and rehabilitation for pilots that have suffered from alcohol issues. We all make mistakes and this guy does not deserve to have his life ruined over one infraction. Let's not forget that Doug Parker has had 3 DUIs, served jail time, and is still at the helm of American. https://www.cnbc.com/id/17099330 ; https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna17348766


You can't even get a job as an Uber driver or grocery delivery driver with a DUI. Why should you be able to be an airline pilot?
 
ozark1
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:55 pm

atcdan wrote:
We have regulations in my sector of aviation that allows anyone above a .019 and below .04 to be relieved of duty and sent home for the day with no repercussions. .04 and above you’re in for close to a year of rehab at your own expense before you can return to working planes. That year of rehab also applies if you have any off-duty alcohol related legal issue like a DWI, etc.

After you do your rehab and come back I think they do like biweekly breath tests on random days and you’re on a last-chance prohibition. You cannot drink, even off duty, for the rest of your career in a safety sensitive position with the FAA. I don’t know why they have the .00-.019 thing, but I guess if people use mouthwash before work or something there may be residue? It’s not something I would even consider. If I’m not feeling 100% after a night of drinking, just call out sick.

At my former carrier this is the case. A daily phone in was required so you never knew when a test was coming. The company pays the Lions share of the Rehab so they are definitely going to ensure that recovery continues. EAP, (Employee Assistance Program) was probably the most outstanding department in the company. My concern is this particular job. There is a high failure rate after one rehab, so i guess this entire incident leaves me with mixed feelings. Didn't a NW pilot on that infamous Fargo-MSP flight get hired on by AAL?
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1612
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:58 pm

Yes, he did.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2341
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Plenty of people have been arrested for DUI while trying to sleep it off in their car. Why would a pilot check-in for their trip if they didn't intend on flying the plane?

Wrong - at least in all the jurisdictions I am familiar with. They may be charged with public intoxication, but not with DUI - unless they are driving.

Really?

https://www.fightduicharges.com/blog/ge ... le-parked/

Maybe you are both correct, and incorrect, in equal part.

wikipedia wrote:
The criminal offense may not involve actual driving of the vehicle, but rather may broadly include being physically "in control" of a car while intoxicated, even if the person charged is not in the act of driving. For example, a person found in the driver's seat of a car while intoxicated and holding the car keys, even while parked, may be charged with DUI, because he or she is in control of the vehicle.

In construing the terms DUI, DWI, OWI, and OVI, some states therefore make it illegal to drive a motor vehicle while under the influence or driving while intoxicated while others indicate that it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle. There is a split of authority across the U.S. regarding this issue. Some states permit enforcement of DUI/DWI and OWI/OVI statutes based on "operation and control" of a vehicle, while others require actual "driving".

And of course that is just the USA. There is a world beyond that too....
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:29 am

VMCA787 wrote:
My point is there is an agreement between the Union and ALPA (insert representative body) as to just what is the point where there is intent. Generally, that point is the "Before Start" Checklist which would become the point at which the pilot passed the point of no return.


For me, "agreements" like this are where the airline industry needs to take a reality check and sort itself out.

The start of the offence should be the point at which any of the pilot's actions could have an adverse effect on the flight. At the before start checklist, preflight planning has been done, weather checked, walkaround done etc. etc. They might have even pushed back. To suggest there was no clear intent to fly at the point of check-in is as ridiculous as saying a passenger hadn't intended to fly at the point of check-in.

EDIT: One solution might be to change an onboard announcement to something like "This aircraft is bound for Atlanta, Georgia. All ground personnel and intoxicated crew deplane now".
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19289
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:21 am

VMCA787 wrote:
Again, what is accomplished by the punishment he received?


I'm sure plenty of folks would consider "home detention" to be hardly punishment at all.

VMCA787 wrote:
At what point do we determine if he had the intent?


Was he in the cockpit? That would seem to suggest intent.

Or maybe the fact he pleaded guilty to the offence? :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
VMCA787
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:51 am

Virtual737 wrote:
For me, "agreements" like this are where the airline industry needs to take a reality check and sort itself out.

The start of the offence should be the point at which any of the pilot's actions could have an adverse effect on the flight. At the before start checklist, preflight planning has been done, weather checked, walkaround done etc. etc. They might have even pushed back. To suggest there was no clear intent to fly at the point of check-in is as ridiculous as saying a passenger hadn't intended to fly at the point of check-in.

EDIT: One solution might be to change an onboard announcement to something like "This aircraft is bound for Atlanta, Georgia. All ground personnel and intoxicated crew deplane now".


The problem with your point in time it is like asking how long a piece of string is. You are comparing apples to oranges with your comparison to a passenger at check-in. How many passengers check and never board? Most airlines have a point in time such as the "Before Start Checklist", "Doors Closed" or some other milestone. But as long as both sides agree it's really it is immaterial what you and I think. The important point is the company and crew have agreed where the termination point is.

If I were you, I'd delete your edit. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem.





scbriml wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
Again, what is accomplished by the punishment he received?


I'm sure plenty of folks would consider "home detention" to be hardly punishment at all.

VMCA787 wrote:
At what point do we determine if he had the intent?


Was he in the cockpit? That would seem to suggest intent.

Or maybe the fact he pleaded guilty to the offence? :scratchchin:


The sentence was not 100% home detention. But again, what does it accomplish?

Please refer to the above reply as to the point in time issue. It is really meaningless what you and I think. If the company and the union have an agreement, that is what counts.

Perhaps his guilty plea was the result of a plea bargain or on the advice of counsel.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:26 am

So what is the point of Federal Aviation Regulations if the union can just circumvent them? And to add insult to injury the airline is the one footing the bill for rehab? What are the union dues for? Isn't that where the money for rehab should come from? This is completely backwards and no lesson is learned. How is this a deterrent?
 
AvgWhiteGuy
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:44 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:46 pm

I am a commercial pilot and I have been through HIMS. It saved my career and my life; I was probably within a week of dying if I had continued on. That being said, I have had one unwavering criticism of the program since I made the first inquiry about it in April of 2009 - the first step is 28 days in in-house rehab and, "approximately a year off." If you had a drinking problem, had gotten away with it for four years but came to understand you needed help and got that answer about what help was available, would you sign on? No one in their right mind would, and people who have addiction problems are going to stick with their addiction, which is why almost everyone in the program has been caught one way or another. There needs to be an intermediate step for those who want help, but do not want such a huge step to recovery. If we had that, you would most likely see more people in the program and less getting caught in the cockpit. Just to be clear, I was one of the very few who, "volunteered," for the program, as my wife called my AME (doctor) in January of 2011 and I had no choice after he confronted me.

As to treating people with substance abuse problems, 20 years ago I would have said lock them up, but putting most people with substance abuse problems does little good, except keep them clean for that amount of time and give them a kick-start on recovery - something few want or want bad enough to make it stick.

You will find that people in a good recovery program are some of the best employees out there. My chief pilot said to me after I came back to work, "I wish I could hire all 1200 of my guys in recovery! You don't give me problems, you're good people, and I know you're going to do your job the way we pay you to!" He considers me one of his favorite employees and we have become friends because I am now regularly in his office for getting accolades from other employees and our passengers.

I will ask to please not judge everyone with substance problems. I thought I was the pinnacle of willpower, having run 12 marathons, endured military survival school, becoming a black-belt at age 37, but willpower is no match for alcohol addiction and neither was my intellect, which I used to create elaborate charts that I would make in an effort to follow the chart down to zero drinks a day. Different charts had different tapers, but they all failed. I would work out to the point of collapse, hoping to burn the cravings out of me, but they always came back minutes after. It was hell and I outline some of it in a book I wrote about my divorce. I do intent to eventually write a book about just my addiction, as my story of how low I got and where I am now is somewhat unique.

Chances are, the addict doesn't want it that way, but the addiction has become too powerful and they don't know a way out.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15278
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:44 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
I really don't know where to start.


Well said, the reply you posted to was uncalled for.

As you said , you have given them the opportunity to research and educate themselves on HIMS and chose not to.

HIMS exists because colleagues of those with the disease recognised the problem and did what pilots do, work the problem, and come up with a solution.

Companies wanted to fire these people (who have families) and the FAA all they wanted to do was remove the certificate. HIMS is about rehabilitation so they can function as a mother/father and retain their certificate.

It’s about lifestyle changes, being happy with yourself, recognise what you have achieved, and focusing what is truly important.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15341
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:13 pm

The home confinement is proper considering that putting this guy in jail would put them at high risk of Covid-19 infection. Our Disability and discrimination laws limit the ability to give harsh sentences for such circumstances. He will be on unpaid leave, have to go to rehab/consulting and I bet he will put on the bottom of the Pandemic furlough lists to return to duty.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2699
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:21 pm

zeke wrote:
VMCA787 wrote:
I really don't know where to start.


Well said, the reply you posted to was uncalled for.

As you said , you have given them the opportunity to research and educate themselves on HIMS and chose not to.

HIMS exists because colleagues of those with the disease recognised the problem and did what pilots do, work the problem, and come up with a solution.

Companies wanted to fire these people (who have families) and the FAA all they wanted to do was remove the certificate. HIMS is about rehabilitation so they can function as a mother/father and retain their certificate.

It’s about lifestyle changes, being happy with yourself, recognise what you have achieved, and focusing what is truly important.


Lots of people have families. Why does it seem like you are treating airline pilots as if they are above others? They're no better than anyone else. As stated earlier, you can't even drive for Uber if you've had a DUI within the past seven years. So we are quite literally holding Uber drivers to a higher standard than airline pilots.

We are not owed anything in life by anyone. And you certainly don't have the right to put other lives at risk. I do not drink within 24 hours of flying. I value my certificate and understand that it is a privilege to hold one, not a right. The biggest thing I fly is an SR22 and if I tried to fly it intoxicated and got caught I highly doubt I would ever be allowed to fly again.

And I understand very well how the HIMS program works. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it. It should only be for those who self report in my opinion. It's a difference of opinion. It doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Delta pilot sentenced for nearly flying under the influence

Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:30 pm

there are alot of facts here: https://kstp.com/minnesota-news/delta-p ... d/5907531/

There is no denying this Pilot was in the process of "operating the flight".
There is no denying that he brought a 1.75 liter bottle of vodka in his bag, to the airport, with the intent to transport it aboard the A321 he was operating.
There is no denying he abruptly avoided having his bag searched, which is the only reason he got caught at all.

Now, for my conjecture -

Why does a pilot bring a bottle of spirits on a flight he is operating? Answer: to consume it while off-duty in a hotel room overnight, and to avoid the risk of being spotted buying alcohol at the destination.
This is a well practiced alcoholic. This is someone who has done this before. This is someone who has repeatedly taken measures to consume alcohol as normal part of his "work days" (which I define to include his out of town overnights).

Recovery success stories and HIMS program aside, it seems to me that FAA and other regulatory bodies should have more say on consequences than Pilots unions; just a personal opinion.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos