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william
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Boeing studied revamp of 737-10 prior to pandemic

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:55 pm

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... -to-light/

Clean sheet off the table but nip and tuck to the 737-10 to make it at least viable against the A321. A plane customers actually want instead of a laughable bargaining chip in A321 negotiations.

Code name 5G

"The technology isn’t available to justify a $10 billion to $15 billion all-new moonshot development today. However, as Boeing watches Airbus and the A321neo and incoming A321XLR tilt single-aisle market share in favor of the European plane maker, an ambitious, but less costly effort to rethink the struggling 737 Max 10 — known internally as the 5G — was being actively studied by Boeing just prior to the onset of the pandemic, The Air Current has learned."
 
maverick4002
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:58 pm

It says this was being studied before the pandemic. So what now, with air traffic significantly down?
 
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Antaras
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:03 pm

Not really related to the article, but would the 737-10 be a good freighter airframe?
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:06 pm

“The 5G would’ve added a new wing on the aircraft, a fly-by-wire flight control system, resized vertical fin and a slimmed down tail section on a modified 737 fuselage to improve runway performance. The concept envisioned two models, one the size of a Max 8 and the other a Max 10-sized aircraft. Given the regulatory scrutiny on the 737 Max, the insider said such changes in a 5G product would likely require a fresh type certificate, separate from the 737 family.“

This is what the 5G is/was
 
multimark
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:13 pm

Boeing needs to turn its attention to something newer than the 737.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:21 pm

Antaras wrote:
Not really related to the article, but would the 737-10 be a good freighter airframe?

The longer fuselage lengths never makes a good freighter. The landing weight determines how much freight can be carried. So freighter aircraft usually use the stronger landing gear of the heaviest and longest model with the shorter fuselage to reduce empty weight and increase payload weight.

For instance if you put 20t of payload in both the 737-8 and 737-10 the longer airframe will burn significantly more fuel (5+%) per kg of payload. The extra volume of the longer fuselage would not be used with industry average payload density. Even if the 737-10 carried say 22t of payload compared to the 20t in the 737-8 the fuel burn per kg will see the shorter frame win.
 
phxa340
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:29 pm

william wrote:
https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/all-new-boeing-jet-is-vaporware-but-5g-max-revamp-comes-to-light/

Clean sheet off the table but nip and tuck to the 737-10 to make it at least viable against the A321. A plane customers actually want instead of a laughable bargaining chip in A321 negotiations.

Code name 5G

"The technology isn’t available to justify a $10 billion to $15 billion all-new moonshot development today. However, as Boeing watches Airbus and the A321neo and incoming A321XLR tilt single-aisle market share in favor of the European plane maker, an ambitious, but less costly effort to rethink the struggling 737 Max 10 — known internally as the 5G — was being actively studied by Boeing just prior to the onset of the pandemic, The Air Current has learned."


How is the 737-10 a laughable bargaining chip against the A321 for customers who already fly the 737 ? Give me a break ... got it , Airbus is the best. It’s not the 737-10 will have great CASM or anything ...
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:33 pm

Opus99 wrote:
“The 5G would’ve added a new wing on the aircraft, a fly-by-wire flight control system, resized vertical fin and a slimmed down tail section on a modified 737 fuselage to improve runway performance. The concept envisioned two models, one the size of a Max 8 and the other a Max 10-sized aircraft. Given the regulatory scrutiny on the 737 Max, the insider said such changes in a 5G product would likely require a fresh type certificate, separate from the 737 family.“

This is what the 5G is/was


You might as well just build a new aircraft at that point...
 
randomdude83
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:34 pm

The 7310Max does look good on paper for sub 2900nm missions, if Boeing can get it to be a solid 3900nm. That would be something against the a321 customer base.

So pretty much impossible. I mean what can Boeing possible do here to get that much improvement? more Aux tanks? more thrust? better landing gear? how much can all that really push it?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:42 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
The 7310Max does look good on paper for sub 2900nm missions, if Boeing can get it to be a solid 3900nm. That would be something against the a321 customer base.

So pretty much impossible. I mean what can Boeing possible do here to get that much improvement? more Aux tanks? more thrust? better landing gear? how much can all that really push it?

Boeing needs 2950nm, US TCON. There is no hope of going after the whole market. That is enough for WN, FR, UA, AA, and DL.

The A321xLR market is exciting, but small.

Boeing needs volume.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:48 pm

Why not resurrect the 757 line for a new model? The competitor to the A321LR is not a 737 but rather a 757 revamped with 787-type comfort for long-haul flying. Airlines loved the aircraft for years, and the 737 is a weak replacement in the eyes of passengers, who do not want to be stuck on a tight 737 for hours on end.
 
jayunited
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:49 pm

multimark wrote:
Boeing needs to turn its attention to something newer than the 737.



I 100% agree I just don't see how any 737-10 can compete against Airbus's upcoming A321XLR.

I just don't see an airline like UA for instance cancelling our order for 50 A321XLRs for an upgraded 737-10.

When will Boeing realize the 737 has served its purpose and now it is time to move on.
 
jayunited
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
So pretty much impossible. I mean what can Boeing possible do here to get that much improvement? more Aux tanks? more thrust? better landing gear? how much can all that really push it?

Boeing needs 2950nm, US TCON. There is no hope of going after the whole market. That is enough for WN, FR, UA, AA, and DL.

The A321xLR market is exciting, but small.

Boeing needs volume.

Lightsaber[/quote]

I thought the MAX10 in its current design would be able to handle US TCONs with no issues even during the winter months when the jet stream can be an issue.
 
BusBlitz
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:04 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Why not resurrect the 757 line for a new model? The competitor to the A321LR is not a 737 but rather a 757 revamped with 787-type comfort for long-haul flying. Airlines loved the aircraft for years, and the 737 is a weak replacement in the eyes of passengers, who do not want to be stuck on a tight 737 for hours on end.


I've always loved the 757. Boeing really just needs low fuel burn engines and type rating the same as the 737 MAX as well as reconfigured doors for the low cost carriers. It would also work as the NMA.
 
TC957
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:05 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Why not resurrect the 757 line for a new model? The competitor to the A321LR is not a 737 but rather a 757 revamped with 787-type comfort for long-haul flying. Airlines loved the aircraft for years, and the 737 is a weak replacement in the eyes of passengers, who do not want to be stuck on a tight 737 for hours on end.

You are stirring up a hornets nest here on A-net suggesting that !!
 
777luver
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:08 pm

I understand Boeing wants to save costs especially now, and I know why the 737 is so successful but it seems if they are hesitant or downright refusing to even look at anything else then a remodernized 737. Mind you Airbus does the same thing but it seems they have more different and improved versions of airplanes than Boeing does.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:22 pm

jayunited wrote:
multimark wrote:
Boeing needs to turn its attention to something newer than the 737.



I 100% agree I just don't see how any 737-10 can compete against Airbus's upcoming A321XLR.

I just don't see an airline like UA for instance cancelling our order for 50 A321XLRs for an upgraded 737-10.

When will Boeing realize the 737 has served its purpose and now it is time to move on.


Boeing doesn't NEED to compete with the A321XLR. Its a niche market that will get some decent sales (as it has), but Boeing needs an aircraft right now with broader appeal, which sounds like what they are doing.

This whole A321 vs. 737MAX 9/10 issue is so overblown. Yes, the A321 is wildly successful, but Boeing will adjust the 10 so that it does get a decent share of the market. Airbus and Boeing don't go tit for tat on aircraft anyways, despite the desires of a.net.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:36 am

phxa340 wrote:
william wrote:
https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/all-new-boeing-jet-is-vaporware-but-5g-max-revamp-comes-to-light/

Clean sheet off the table but nip and tuck to the 737-10 to make it at least viable against the A321. A plane customers actually want instead of a laughable bargaining chip in A321 negotiations.

Code name 5G

"The technology isn’t available to justify a $10 billion to $15 billion all-new moonshot development today. However, as Boeing watches Airbus and the A321neo and incoming A321XLR tilt single-aisle market share in favor of the European plane maker, an ambitious, but less costly effort to rethink the struggling 737 Max 10 — known internally as the 5G — was being actively studied by Boeing just prior to the onset of the pandemic, The Air Current has learned."


How is the 737-10 a laughable bargaining chip against the A321 for customers who already fly the 737 ? Give me a break ... got it , Airbus is the best. It’s not the 737-10 will have great CASM or anything ...



The order books says differently. Cash strapped Boeing wouldn’t be looking at a 10 revamp if sales were great.
 
eraugrad02
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:46 am

I know Boeing has possibly thought of this but here goes,

What if Boeing did a 737-8ER? It would have the -9/-10's extra fuel tank and the -10's main landing gear to optimize its T/O performance. The plane would carry less than the A321NEOxLR but airlines could use the 737-8ER more flights/day.

Des,
Last edited by eraugrad02 on Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
phxa340
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:55 am

william wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
william wrote:
https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/all-new-boeing-jet-is-vaporware-but-5g-max-revamp-comes-to-light/

Clean sheet off the table but nip and tuck to the 737-10 to make it at least viable against the A321. A plane customers actually want instead of a laughable bargaining chip in A321 negotiations.

Code name 5G

"The technology isn’t available to justify a $10 billion to $15 billion all-new moonshot development today. However, as Boeing watches Airbus and the A321neo and incoming A321XLR tilt single-aisle market share in favor of the European plane maker, an ambitious, but less costly effort to rethink the struggling 737 Max 10 — known internally as the 5G — was being actively studied by Boeing just prior to the onset of the pandemic, The Air Current has learned."


How is the 737-10 a laughable bargaining chip against the A321 for customers who already fly the 737 ? Give me a break ... got it , Airbus is the best. It’s not the 737-10 will have great CASM or anything ...



The order books says differently. Cash strapped Boeing wouldn’t be looking at a 10 revamp if sales were great.


Order books are not a realistic representation of deliveries, do you actually think Air Asia is going to take their 400+ A32X orders ? Not. A. Chance. I am not saying the A321 is a bad plane, it’s remarkable, but ... for a lot of airlines the 737-10 works just as well for them too. PS - Boeing has defense for cash flow , I would argue Airbus is in more of a cash flow problem situation. But based on your posts, I’m not sure we’re going to change your opinions or thoughts on the manner.
 
rigo
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:19 am

Wasn't there also some talk about a long range version of the 737 to compete against the A321LR (if not XLR)?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:22 am

phxa340 wrote:
william wrote:
phxa340 wrote:

How is the 737-10 a laughable bargaining chip against the A321 for customers who already fly the 737 ? Give me a break ... got it , Airbus is the best. It’s not the 737-10 will have great CASM or anything ...



The order books says differently. Cash strapped Boeing wouldn’t be looking at a 10 revamp if sales were great.


Order books are not a realistic representation of deliveries, do you actually think Air Asia is going to take their 400+ A32X orders ? Not. A. Chance. I am not saying the A321 is a bad plane, it’s remarkable, but ... for a lot of airlines the 737-10 works just as well for them too. PS - Boeing has defense for cash flow , I would argue Airbus is in more of a cash flow problem situation. But based on your posts, I’m not sure we’re going to change your opinions or thoughts on the manner.


But deliveries is a realistic representation of deliveries. The main difference is the way the backlogs disappear, 737 frames are getting cancelled and A320neo family frames are getting delivered.
The Q3 2020 at Airbus saw monthly deliveries of on average 43 frames. If we see this delivery pace continuing, Airbus will deliver 400+ A320 family frames this year and that excludes a year end rush.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MavyWavyATR
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:22 am

If Boeing wants the 737-10 to be competitive, they're most likely gonna have to sacrifice some baggage/cargo space underneath and install some extra tanks to beef up it's range. Do that and it becomes more appealing to the airlines.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:32 am

rigo wrote:
Wasn't there also some talk about a long range version of the 737 to compete against the A321LR (if not XLR)?

Boeing talked about the MAX8ER years ago, however I guess that the plan was scrapped by the crisis.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
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william
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:20 am

phxa340 wrote:
william wrote:
phxa340 wrote:

How is the 737-10 a laughable bargaining chip against the A321 for customers who already fly the 737 ? Give me a break ... got it , Airbus is the best. It’s not the 737-10 will have great CASM or anything ...



The order books says differently. Cash strapped Boeing wouldn’t be looking at a 10 revamp if sales were great.


Order books are not a realistic representation of deliveries, do you actually think Air Asia is going to take their 400+ A32X orders ? Not. A. Chance. I am not saying the A321 is a bad plane, it’s remarkable, but ... for a lot of airlines the 737-10 works just as well for them too. PS - Boeing has defense for cash flow , I would argue Airbus is in more of a cash flow problem situation. But based on your posts, I’m not sure we’re going to change your opinions or thoughts on the manner.


This is not about pro Boeing or pro Airbus, just a statement of fact about the market situation regarding 180-200 pax segment of the market. Boeing or Airbus for that matter do not have the cash or tech to start a new gen project. So Boeing is looking at the weak point of its cash cow, and nip and tucking to see how to improve the 10. The 737-10 is a fine aircraft but apparently in the eyes of the market the A321NEO is a better one. Again, the market has spoken, not a fan boy thing.

I let my Air Current subscription go, but would love to know what Boeing is looking at. Raising the gear costs money but will improve airfield performance. Other than putting the already lighter than A321, 737-10 on a diet, do not see what room for improvement Boeing can make. Is GE/Safran going to find more thrust? Is it really needed? Or just lowering the price or offering deeper discounts that will make Airbus come back to the table with deeper discounts (what Airbus was doing in certain A330/787 campaigns). The 737 MAX will be selling for the next decade, Boeing is smart to invest this fast growing segment of the market by making its offering more competitive.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:27 am

eraugrad02 wrote:
I know Boeing has possibly thought of this but here goes,

What if Boeing did a 737-8ER? It would have the -9/-10's extra fuel tank and the -10's main landing gear to optimize its T/O performance. The plane would carry less than the A321NEOxLR but airlines could use the 737-8ER more flights/day.

Des,


Except that if the routes are east-west, they'll be traveling over several time zones. There will be fewer desirable pairs of departure and arrival times.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:41 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
“The 5G would’ve added a new wing on the aircraft, a fly-by-wire flight control system, resized vertical fin and a slimmed down tail section on a modified 737 fuselage to improve runway performance. The concept envisioned two models, one the size of a Max 8 and the other a Max 10-sized aircraft. Given the regulatory scrutiny on the 737 Max, the insider said such changes in a 5G product would likely require a fresh type certificate, separate from the 737 family.“

This is what the 5G is/was


You might as well just build a new aircraft at that point...

That is why they went with the MAX-10, how exactly were they going to do grandfathering to a FBW system from a non-FBW system, any such a/c would have been a clean sheet.
 
phxa340
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:52 am

mjoelnir wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
william wrote:


The order books says differently. Cash strapped Boeing wouldn’t be looking at a 10 revamp if sales were great.


Order books are not a realistic representation of deliveries, do you actually think Air Asia is going to take their 400+ A32X orders ? Not. A. Chance. I am not saying the A321 is a bad plane, it’s remarkable, but ... for a lot of airlines the 737-10 works just as well for them too. PS - Boeing has defense for cash flow , I would argue Airbus is in more of a cash flow problem situation. But based on your posts, I’m not sure we’re going to change your opinions or thoughts on the manner.


But deliveries is a realistic representation of deliveries. The main difference is the way the backlogs disappear, 737 frames are getting cancelled and A320neo family frames are getting delivered.
The Q3 2020 at Airbus saw monthly deliveries of on average 43 frames. If we see this delivery pace continuing, Airbus will deliver 400+ A320 family frames this year and that excludes a year end rush.


Ok - that logic works if you believe that airlines will keep accepting new planes while half their fleet is parked. Not saying your wrong , I just believe differently. I think order books from both B and A are not a realistic representation of what actual deliveries will be, not even close.
 
flyinggoat
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:23 am

5G sounds like code for 5th Gen 737 (Jurassic, Classic, NG, MAX, and now 5G).

Perhaps this was a study for a 737 derivative that would eventually replace the entire 737 MAX line, starting with the 737-10/757-200 size aircraft first, then several years down the road, the 737-8 replacement. I do find the idea of a 737-8 and 737-10/757-200 replacement sharing the same wing/landing gear/engines a bit questionable though.

Given the MAX debacle, I don't see another iteration of the 737 happening, especially with all the changes (FBW especially) discussed above. Perhaps, this was the NMA program that Calhoun was referring to when they decided to scrap this program and start with a clean sheet instead? Seems to me they are just better off starting with a NSA about the size of a 757-200 and using that as a the bases for a 737-8 and 737-9/10 replacement.

Just my $.02.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:07 am

william wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
william wrote:
https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/all-new-boeing-jet-is-vaporware-but-5g-max-revamp-comes-to-light/

Clean sheet off the table but nip and tuck to the 737-10 to make it at least viable against the A321. A plane customers actually want instead of a laughable bargaining chip in A321 negotiations.

Code name 5G

"The technology isn’t available to justify a $10 billion to $15 billion all-new moonshot development today. However, as Boeing watches Airbus and the A321neo and incoming A321XLR tilt single-aisle market share in favor of the European plane maker, an ambitious, but less costly effort to rethink the struggling 737 Max 10 — known internally as the 5G — was being actively studied by Boeing just prior to the onset of the pandemic, The Air Current has learned."


How is the 737-10 a laughable bargaining chip against the A321 for customers who already fly the 737 ? Give me a break ... got it , Airbus is the best. It’s not the 737-10 will have great CASM or anything ...



The order books says differently. Cash strapped Boeing wouldn’t be looking at a 10 revamp if sales were great.

483 orders for the 737 MAX 10 vs 3,397 orders for the A321neo (all variants): 1:10 ratio...
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:16 am

The 737-10 doesn’t need to be compared to the A321LR/XLR. Only to the baseline A321NEO.

In my company they need the additional lift over the MAX 8 for a range less that maximum 2500nm. Our most important markets are within 700-1000nm’s. So the current -10 is perfect.

What’s up with this A.net myth of at max range/payload this aircraft is better. There are so many more factors deciding an aircraft purchase or if aircraft A or B suits their operation better.

Here B wants to get a slightly bigger piece of the market by perhaps small improvements. Not all the market. One of the things my company likes is the fact that the MAX is not that heavy compared to their Airbus counterparts.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:05 am

The 7M8 already has transatlantic range. Norwegian was already operating them on flights to the US. So I'm not sure why it would need any further upgrades. The 737-10 shouldn't have any issue with US transcon and west coast to Hawaii.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:18 am

Is the 737-10 still using the 130 kN CFM LEAP-1B28, the same variant of the MAX 9?
Should the MAX 10 use an uprated engine that has a closer thrust to the -1A30?
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
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c933103
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:35 am

So,
OG - 1st Gen
Classic - 2nd Gen
NG - 3rd Gen
MAX - 4th Gen
And now this 5G for the new -10 - 5th Gen?
In other words the new -10 will be comoarable to the upgrade from NG to Max?
Is it worth spending this amount of money on this new design?
And if they indeed do this ,would this replaced the NMA?
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c933103
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:37 am

Antaras wrote:
Is the 737-10 still using the 130 kN CFM LEAP-1B28, the same variant of the MAX 9?
Should the MAX 10 use an uprated engine that has a closer thrust to the -1A30?

Given "Max" is the 4th generation 737, I don't think it'd be accurate to call the "5G" -10 a Max.
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dstblj52
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:39 am

flyinggoat wrote:
5G sounds like code for 5th Gen 737 (Jurassic, Classic, NG, MAX, and now 5G).

Perhaps this was a study for a 737 derivative that would eventually replace the entire 737 MAX line, starting with the 737-10/757-200 size aircraft first, then several years down the road, the 737-8 replacement. I do find the idea of a 737-8 and 737-10/757-200 replacement sharing the same wing/landing gear/engines a bit questionable though.

Given the MAX debacle, I don't see another iteration of the 737 happening, especially with all the changes (FBW especially) discussed above. Perhaps, this was the NMA program that Calhoun was referring to when they decided to scrap this program and start with a clean sheet instead? Seems to me they are just better off starting with a NSA about the size of a 757-200 and using that as a the bases for a 737-8 and 737-9/10 replacement.

Just my $.02.

I could see how you do another generation of 737, the tube is fine may need to be upgraded depending on how grandfathering gets changed in the future but losing production efficiencies for no reason is silly fundamentally the 737 has two problems it's harder to re-engine non fly by wire aircraft and its two low to the ground. But I don't see a reason why you couldn't do a 737 cockpit into a fly by wire system it would require replacing cables with actuators and motors but it is doable, then adding a new landing gear system to gain more height ie get it comparable with where the 320 or 757 series aircraft is would require reengineering the wing box but doable. However, by this point, your basically a new aircraft into investment but maybe Boeing could structure it as a series of 737 upgrades to make it a viable and competitive platform.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:37 am

william wrote:
Other than putting the already lighter than A321, 737-10 on a diet, do not see what room for improvement Boeing can make.


That's really a myth. The MAX family is just as heavy as their equivalent A320neo competitors, if not slightly heavier. The A320neo was a straight re-engine, the MAX had a lot more changes done to it, not least because the engines wouldn't fit. The 737NG on the other hand was somewhat lighter than the equivalent A320ceo.

But the big point of all of this if you ask me, is to enable Boeing to add the A320neo's full size, more powerful and more efficient PW1100G and CFM LEAP-1A engines to the 737. New wing suggests to me that they are redesigning it to take a proper longer landing gear, essentially done by moving the engines further away from the fuselage. Redesigned tail fin suggests that it needs more rudder authority due to increased power. Then you have the slimmed down rear fuselage which will allow a better rotation angle.

At least now we know what United was offered just prior to their A321ZLR order, when they discussed a 737-8ER. IMO, considering how many changes they were doing, they may as well just fit it with a new, quieter nose design.
 
seb76
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:32 am

It's weird to see that so many people explaining here that it's important to keep it as an evolution of the perfectly fine 737 tube and still keep the same type rating, but make it FBW and replacing almost everything in this airplane, all of this to come up with a still inferior and less flexible product that the A321Neo.
Airbus is no magic and the laws of physics are the same for every manufacturer. At some point, if you want to improve over your competitor, you need to start something new, using the latest materials and systems. The 787 is a perfect example that the A330 could be stopped. Even if the program execution was so-so, the model is now well proven, appreciated by the operators and passengers and the sales volume speak for itself.
Remember what happened to Airbus's initial plans for matching the 787 with their first iteration of an improved A330 ... At least they realized (ad their customers told them) this was going nowhere and they came up with a better plan for the A350XWB. OK, now they still milk the A330 line with the neo variant, but it's probably a low investment project with an acceptable ROI and the last A330 we will see. The 737 has to die too. It has so many disadvantages that a clean sheet is needed.

The obsession on keeping the same type rating for the pilots is also not very ambitious. If this is of your main selling points, you are just trying to keep some of your existing customers but this proposal has zero value to potential new customers. Even so, be assured that the airlines shopping for new aircrafts know how to calculate an aircraft's TCO over a long period. The sales staff of the competitor will also gladly help them to factor in everything that is needed in this TCO if they are sure they offer a superior product. The cost of (re)training crews would be quickly offset by the benefits of modernizing the fleet with the competitor's product. Time to make Boeing great again !
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:32 am

This essentially sounds like the much longed for 757max. FBW, new wing, new engines, new gear, new rear section. Essentially all they are keeping is the fuselage cross section and nose. IIRC the 757 was initially planned with the 707/737 nose. The 767 cockpit & systems would not fit. With the advances and shrinkage of electronics since the 70s the systems would likely fit in the 737 nose.

So this is conceptually the 757MAX, as far as I can see?
 
seb76
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:01 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
The 7M8 already has transatlantic range. Norwegian was already operating them on flights to the US. So I'm not sure why it would need any further upgrades. The 737-10 shouldn't have any issue with US transcon and west coast to Hawaii.

Most people who used Norwegian from a western european city and had a fuel stop/connection at KEF would not agree.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1797
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:18 am

Those MAX 10 mods could be just about the synthetic third sensor and associated hardware and software changes required in the cockpit. If authorities require it for RTS Boeing will develop it now and make this modular for the other MAXs. This will ensure that they can build and deliver the family through this decade. It's not another generation but it might be a lot of work behind the scenes.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:20 am

VSMUT wrote:
william wrote:
Other than putting the already lighter than A321, 737-10 on a diet, do not see what room for improvement Boeing can make.


But the big point of all of this if you ask me, is to enable Boeing to add the A320neo's full size, more powerful and more efficient PW1100G and CFM LEAP-1A engines to the 737.


The CFM engine is optimized for the MAX and adjusted for the Airbus. The efficiency is the same. The 1A is heavier and has 2 more spools and a larger diameter. But not more efficient and more power.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1287
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:24 am

seb76 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
The 7M8 already has transatlantic range. Norwegian was already operating them on flights to the US. So I'm not sure why it would need any further upgrades. The 737-10 shouldn't have any issue with US transcon and west coast to Hawaii.

Most people who used Norwegian from a western european city and had a fuel stop/connection at KEF would not agree.


I never heard about this problems before, surely if they can't even fly 7-8 hours at full load then something bad happen?

Like fuel leaks or miscalculation on how much fuel they carry.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:36 am

Avgeek21 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
william wrote:
Other than putting the already lighter than A321, 737-10 on a diet, do not see what room for improvement Boeing can make.


But the big point of all of this if you ask me, is to enable Boeing to add the A320neo's full size, more powerful and more efficient PW1100G and CFM LEAP-1A engines to the 737.


The CFM engine is optimized for the MAX and adjusted for the Airbus. The efficiency is the same. The 1A is heavier and has 2 more spools and a larger diameter. But not more efficient and more power.


The LEAP 1A and C have a BPR of 11, the LEAP-B is fully optimized for the 737 MAX and has a BPR of 9. No miracles here, on the same engine architecture / conditions, the BPR improves sfc. Just like on the CFM56-5 and -7. Boeing first settled on 69inch as the sweet spot, than enlarged it a bit. Still the BPR is limitted by the MAX wing configuration and Boeing went to great lengths to maximize BPR & had to deal with the drawbacks (MCAS) . Also on the LEAP-A, when PW announced the 80 inch fan, CFM enlarged the LEAP-A to 78 inch fan size to improve BPR & sfc..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ra ... ciency.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ratio
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 170
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:39 am

keesje wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

But the big point of all of this if you ask me, is to enable Boeing to add the A320neo's full size, more powerful and more efficient PW1100G and CFM LEAP-1A engines to the 737.


The CFM engine is optimized for the MAX and adjusted for the Airbus. The efficiency is the same. The 1A is heavier and has 2 more spools and a larger diameter. But not more efficient and more power.


The LEAP 1A and C have a BPR of 11, the LEAP-B is fully optimized for the 737 MAX and has a BPR of 9. No miracles here, on the same engine architecture / conditions, the BPR improves sfc. Just like on the CFM56-5 and -7. Boeing first settled on 69inch as the sweet spot, than enlarged it a bit. Still the BPR is limitted by the MAX wing configuration and Boeing went to great lengths to maximize BPR & had to deal with the drawbacks (MCAS) . Also on the LEAP-A, when PW announced the 80 inch fan, CFM enlarged the LEAP-A to 78 inch fan size to improve BPR & sfc..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ra ... ciency.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ratio


So how does the CFM LEAP-1B engine achieve similar efficiencies to its larger siblings when its bypass ratio is considerably lower?

Bypass ratio (BPR) alone never tells the whole story.

Take a low BPR engine and add to it a bigger fan, now you have higher BPR. Does that mean better efficiency? No. The reason is simple, by keeping everything the same, the same combustor/turbine do not have the right power/design to turn the now bigger fan at the optimum speed (slow fan).

But if you use a smaller fan on an already high BPR engine, which is the -1B case (approx. 8 inches smaller), then the thrust will be lower, which is indeed the case (approx. 130 vs. 143 kN). Since the combustor and OPR (overall pressure ratio) haven't changed, they can easily drive the now smaller fan at the right speed.

The other benefits the -1B have that may offset the lower BPR are the lighter weight (2 fewer turbine stages), lower duct loses, and the Max's cruise Mach, which is 0.01 faster than the neo – the slightly faster speed means slightly less time burning fuel for the same distance, and also slightly better inlet compression.

Higher BPR means larger fan and lower RPM. But in the LEAP familly the fan and booster (LP compressor) are on the same shaft driven by the LP turbine. And the booster optimal RPM is higher than the optimal fan RPM. The smaller LEAP-1B fan has a higher fan RPM which helps to increase the compressor efficency.

To increase even more the BPR without loss of compression efficency the fan and booster RPM must differ, which can be obtained using a 3rd shaft (Trent familly) or a gearbox PW1100G.

Source: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/64131/how-does-the-cfm-leap-1b-engine-achieve-the-same-efficiency-as-the-leap-1a-despi
 
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keesje
Posts: 14104
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:24 am

I think Boeing would have loved to add the new available 78-80 inch fans on the MAX, same as offering AKH options. But they had to deal with the 737 configuration.
CFM is keeping LEAP-A and -B figures close to itself to avoid discussion with a strategic key customer.

I find the smoke screens and diversions to avoid the LEAP-A having better sfc then the -B amusing. The explanations always take as the starting point that the sfc's are the same. And then try to convince by overwhelming generalizations, things we don't know. I think The LEAP-A is fully optimized in it's fierce direct competition with the PW1100, it has to, competitive pressure the -A has less. The wiki page illustrates: it has been carefully edited into inconsistency on this : the A&B the same but the C is better (while nearly identical to the A :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_Inter ... ifications

Based on similar different BPR same engine comparisons (CF6-80C2 vs -E1), CFM 56-7 vs -5B), (CF-34s) I estimate the CFM LEAP-A to have a roughly 3-4% better sfc than the LEAP-B. At some point those figure will leak. You can't keep marketing them away..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4689
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:28 am

Avgeek21 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:

The CFM engine is optimized for the MAX and adjusted for the Airbus. The efficiency is the same. The 1A is heavier and has 2 more spools and a larger diameter. But not more efficient and more power.


The LEAP 1A and C have a BPR of 11, the LEAP-B is fully optimized for the 737 MAX and has a BPR of 9. No miracles here, on the same engine architecture / conditions, the BPR improves sfc. Just like on the CFM56-5 and -7. Boeing first settled on 69inch as the sweet spot, than enlarged it a bit. Still the BPR is limitted by the MAX wing configuration and Boeing went to great lengths to maximize BPR & had to deal with the drawbacks (MCAS) . Also on the LEAP-A, when PW announced the 80 inch fan, CFM enlarged the LEAP-A to 78 inch fan size to improve BPR & sfc..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ra ... ciency.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ratio


So how does the CFM LEAP-1B engine achieve similar efficiencies to its larger siblings when its bypass ratio is considerably lower?


It doesn't. The fact that even regional jets like the E-190/195E2 and A220 use bigger engines says all you need to know. The 737MAX was compromised from day one, it was public knowledge. It even reflects in the sales numbers. Boeing has been on the defense ever since they launched it, with lower prices, fewer sales and more traditional 737 customers jumping ship to Airbus.
 
Oykie
Posts: 1975
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:42 am

william wrote:
https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/all-new-boeing-jet-is-vaporware-but-5g-max-revamp-comes-to-light/

Clean sheet off the table but nip and tuck to the 737-10 to make it at least viable against the A321. A plane customers actually want instead of a laughable bargaining chip in A321 negotiations.

Code name 5G

"The technology isn’t available to justify a $10 billion to $15 billion all-new moonshot development today. However, as Boeing watches Airbus and the A321neo and incoming A321XLR tilt single-aisle market share in favor of the European plane maker, an ambitious, but less costly effort to rethink the struggling 737 Max 10 — known internally as the 5G — was being actively studied by Boeing just prior to the onset of the pandemic, The Air Current has learned."


While it seem to be too much of an update, I have been thinking a lot about how Boeing best can get out of the troubles they have had with the grounding of the MAX and make their portfolio more competitive versus Airbus and the A320. I am sure everyone reading end posting here, has thought a lot about this and there has also been many ideas from just getting the 737MAX back in the air to building an NSA, NMA or MOM. And then there is the occasional 757MAX.

Very short term the 737MAX has been deemed safe enough to to RTS and will do so in a small scale within a few weeks. I will have no worry about flying the 737MAX and must admit I look forward to being a passenger.

Personally I would like Boeing to make a plastic NMA with a lot of crew commonality with the 787. Making the plane more electric and digital will help with reliability and safety. The 737 is a stand alone product in a portfolio. While there are so many of them this is a weak spot in the Boeing portfolio. The 777/777X and 787 are much more similar. But this would be a higher risk than just letting the 737 return to service and do nothing.

But there is some risk to do nothing. While the 737MAX is deemed safe to return to service, its main computers have the same processing technology as the Super Nintendo. The big scrutiny it has been through has shown that those Super Nintendo Computers are making the workload during emergencies very high. The 737-10 is required to have a third AoA sensor before EIS. The A32LR and A321XLR have a bigger MTOW than the 737.

That has made me think about the 737-200 advanced. It was a big improvement over the original 737-200 and I have been thinking if something similar would be the best approach for Boeing. Could Boeing do something about the workload for pilots, add third AoA sensor and increase MTOW to close the gap between the 737 MAX 10 and the A321? A 737 Max 10 advanced. :-D Is it even possible to replace the Super Nintendo processors?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
morrisond
Posts: 2867
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:28 am

We have probably seen the last major iteration of the 737 - and besides for the obvious resigns and design limitations - I believe the biggest one will be production cost.

Taking lessons learned on the 787/777x - the next SA will be optimized to minimize labour hours of production to reduce the sales price.

This is the one area where Boeing could gain a big advantage building it on one line in a very automated factory.

Airbus would have a very hard time responding due to the legacy nature of the A320 series (although it could be just as fuel efficient with a new wing) and its distributed final assembly sites - which mean tons of overhead and real issues shedding those workers.

Boeing will probably never return to previous MAX levels of employment and a clean sheet would probably not be built in Renton anyways.

Bleeding edge performance is not he be all and end all. Keesje is right - it needs to be able to take containers - they won't reuse the 737 Fuselage.

Getting production cost down (which is what Boeing is good at) and lowering sales price - will help to get Boeing back to a 50/50 market share and restore balance in the force. It may be until the 2030's though - this decade is pretty much a write-off and neither will make a lot of money. Early 20's losses hopefully offset by profits later in the decade.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8507
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:47 am

morrisond wrote:
Keesje is right - it needs to be able to take containers - they won't reuse the 737 Fuselage.


What are the ten largest operators of the A320 family and which of them use containers exclusively?

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