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itripreport
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Keesje is right - it needs to be able to take containers - they won't reuse the 737 Fuselage.


What are the ten largest operators of the A320 family and which of them use containers exclusively?


Only airline that comes into mind is British Airways, not sure if their newer NEOs have them though
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:18 pm

So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:26 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
Why not resurrect the 757 line for a new model? The competitor to the A321LR is not a 737 but rather a 757 revamped with 787-type comfort for long-haul flying. Airlines loved the aircraft for years, and the 737 is a weak replacement in the eyes of passengers, who do not want to be stuck on a tight 737 for hours on end.

Because there is no 757 line. Tooling, machinery etc is all gone.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:50 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
The 737-10 doesn’t need to be compared to the A321LR/XLR. Only to the baseline A321NEO.

In my company they need the additional lift over the MAX 8 for a range less that maximum 2500nm. Our most important markets are within 700-1000nm’s. So the current -10 is perfect.

What’s up with this A.net myth of at max range/payload this aircraft is better. There are so many more factors deciding an aircraft purchase or if aircraft A or B suits their operation better.

Here B wants to get a slightly bigger piece of the market by perhaps small improvements. Not all the market. One of the things my company likes is the fact that the MAX is not that heavy compared to their Airbus counterparts.


And for a slightly bigger piece of the market they are going to remodel the whole aircraft? New wings? Tail? FBW? New type certificate? This is not a cheap win tbh.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:55 pm

Maybe a Maximus with gull wings?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:56 pm

william wrote:
The order books says differently. Cash strapped Boeing wouldn’t be looking at a 10 revamp if sales were great.

That logic suggests Airbus would not have invested in A321XLR because A321 and A321LR were selling just fine.

eraugrad02 wrote:
What if Boeing did a 737-8ER? It would have the -9/-10's extra fuel tank and the -10's main landing gear to optimize its T/O performance. The plane would carry less than the A321NEOxLR but airlines could use the 737-8ER more flights/day.

For the same reason Airbus isn't taking the A321's high lift devices and putting them on A320: the field performance is fine as it is, and the airlines don't want the added weight and complexity.

Avgeek21 wrote:
So how does the CFM LEAP-1B engine achieve similar efficiencies to its larger siblings when its bypass ratio is considerably lower?

Bypass ratio (BPR) alone never tells the whole story.

Take a low BPR engine and add to it a bigger fan, now you have higher BPR. Does that mean better efficiency? No. The reason is simple, by keeping everything the same, the same combustor/turbine do not have the right power/design to turn the now bigger fan at the optimum speed (slow fan).


But if you use a smaller fan on an already high BPR engine, which is the -1B case (approx. 8 inches smaller), then the thrust will be lower, which is indeed the case (approx. 130 vs. 143 kN). Since the combustor and OPR (overall pressure ratio) haven't changed, they can easily drive the now smaller fan at the right speed.

The other benefits the -1B have that may offset the lower BPR are the lighter weight (2 fewer turbine stages), lower duct loses, and the Max's cruise Mach, which is 0.01 faster than the neo – the slightly faster speed means slightly less time burning fuel for the same distance, and also slightly better inlet compression.

Higher BPR means larger fan and lower RPM. But in the LEAP familly the fan and booster (LP compressor) are on the same shaft driven by the LP turbine. And the booster optimal RPM is higher than the optimal fan RPM. The smaller LEAP-1B fan has a higher fan RPM which helps to increase the compressor efficency.

To increase even more the BPR without loss of compression efficency the fan and booster RPM must differ, which can be obtained using a 3rd shaft (Trent familly) or a gearbox PW1100G.

Source: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/64131/how-does-the-cfm-leap-1b-engine-achieve-the-same-efficiency-as-the-leap-1a-despi

Yes, and the bigger fan has more frontal drag and the bigger nacelle adds weight and cost as well.

People here thrive on simplistic comparisons such as higher BPR = better, heavier = worse, etc but it's often a part of a more complicated set of trade offs that need to be understood.
Last edited by Revelation on Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:09 pm

PM wrote:
So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?

No.

Boeing 737-10 Pro Max
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:18 pm

PM wrote:
So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?


Can't wait for the 737-MAX-14 in 2038. Honestly Boeing, it is time to quit trying to fix and stretch an obsolete aircraft. The 787 was fresh when it came out. The 737 has been stale for many decades.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:23 pm

Everytime I read a Boeing development thread, like this one, I read it as : "Boeing can't figure out what to do" =)

Antaras wrote:
PM wrote:
So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?

No.

Boeing 737-10 Pro Max

Sounds a bit like smartphone naming. Like 737 MAX/Plus/MAX-Plus/Plus XR/Pro-MAX etc
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:26 pm

Armodeen wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
The 737-10 doesn’t need to be compared to the A321LR/XLR. Only to the baseline A321NEO.

In my company they need the additional lift over the MAX 8 for a range less that maximum 2500nm. Our most important markets are within 700-1000nm’s. So the current -10 is perfect.

What’s up with this A.net myth of at max range/payload this aircraft is better. There are so many more factors deciding an aircraft purchase or if aircraft A or B suits their operation better.


Here B wants to get a slightly bigger piece of the market by perhaps small improvements. Not all the market. One of the things my company likes is the fact that the MAX is not that heavy compared to their Airbus counterparts.

And for a slightly bigger piece of the market they are going to remodel the whole aircraft? New wings? Tail? FBW? New type certificate? This is not a cheap win tbh.

If you notice, the thread starter says they are not going to do this project.

For all we know, Boeing management asked its design team what would be needed to extend the range of the MAX-10 and the answer was "we need an all new wing and FBW and a new type certificate" and then management quickly shut the program down since it made no sense to proceed. In fact that seems like a likely scenario. It's called covering all the bases.

Although you got to say the name was kinda cute, in the end it appears it will be yet another dead end from what John Leahy called "the paper airplane company".
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:32 pm

avier wrote:
Everytime I read a Boeing development thread, like this one, I read it as : "Boeing can't figure out what to do" =)

That's what makes it an interesting industry to follow. So many variables, then you get to commit to spending billions of dollars on a project that won't return a profit for at least a decade and may turn out to be a huge loss. It isn't easy to figure out what to do under these circumstances.

avier wrote:
Sounds a bit like smartphone naming. Like 737 MAX/Plus/MAX-Plus/Plus XR/Pro-MAX etc

Or female hygiene products.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yes, and the bigger fan has more frontal drag and the bigger nacelle adds weight and cost as well.

People here thrive on simplistic comparisons such as higher BPR = better, heavier = worse, etc but it's often a part of a more complicated set of trade offs that need to be understood.


Nothing would have prevented Airbus from having a smaller diameter fan under the A320NEO. "Nothing" could have enabled Boeing from having a bigger diameter fan under the 737MAX. Only one of them was forced and it is probable Airbus engineers are not absolute idiots that put a inferior sized fan under their plane.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:15 pm

itripreport wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Keesje is right - it needs to be able to take containers - they won't reuse the 737 Fuselage.


What are the ten largest operators of the A320 family and which of them use containers exclusively?


Only airline that comes into mind is British Airways, not sure if their newer NEOs have them though


Yes, the NEOs do, in fact all their A320 series planes allocated to LHR have container loading hold floors.A smaller number of A319 and A320 ceos allocated to LGW are bulk loading only, but these are amongst the planes parked up as surplus to requirements at the moment.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:16 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Yes, and the bigger fan has more frontal drag and the bigger nacelle adds weight and cost as well.

People here thrive on simplistic comparisons such as higher BPR = better, heavier = worse, etc but it's often a part of a more complicated set of trade offs that need to be understood.

Nothing would have prevented Airbus from having a smaller diameter fan under the A320NEO. "Nothing" could have enabled Boeing from having a bigger diameter fan under the 737MAX. Only one of them was forced and it is probable Airbus engineers are not absolute idiots that put a inferior sized fan under their plane.

Right, because as a part of the rest of the airplane and their intended missions, a bigger fan made more sense for them. Doesn't mean a bigger fan would make more sense for the 737.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:49 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
“The 5G would’ve added a new wing on the aircraft, a fly-by-wire flight control system, resized vertical fin and a slimmed down tail section on a modified 737 fuselage to improve runway performance. The concept envisioned two models, one the size of a Max 8 and the other a Max 10-sized aircraft. Given the regulatory scrutiny on the 737 Max, the insider said such changes in a 5G product would likely require a fresh type certificate, separate from the 737 family.“

This is what the 5G is/was


You might as well just build a new aircraft at that point...


Why? You’d lose decades of “grandfathering”.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
The 737-10 doesn’t need to be compared to the A321LR/XLR. Only to the baseline A321NEO.

In my company they need the additional lift over the MAX 8 for a range less that maximum 2500nm. Our most important markets are within 700-1000nm’s. So the current -10 is perfect.

What’s up with this A.net myth of at max range/payload this aircraft is better. There are so many more factors deciding an aircraft purchase or if aircraft A or B suits their operation better.


Here B wants to get a slightly bigger piece of the market by perhaps small improvements. Not all the market. One of the things my company likes is the fact that the MAX is not that heavy compared to their Airbus counterparts.

And for a slightly bigger piece of the market they are going to remodel the whole aircraft? New wings? Tail? FBW? New type certificate? This is not a cheap win tbh.

If you notice, the thread starter says they are not going to do this project.

For all we know, Boeing management asked its design team what would be needed to extend the range of the MAX-10 and the answer was "we need an all new wing and FBW and a new type certificate" and then management quickly shut the program down since it made no sense to proceed. In fact that seems like a likely scenario. It's called covering all the bases.

Although you got to say the name was kinda cute, in the end it appears it will be yet another dead end from what John Leahy called "the paper airplane company".


It seems that Boeings management lacks the insight about the possibilities of an airframe and just keeps launching and killing design projects that don't make sense. Waisting time in the mean time. Y1, Y3, NSA, NMA, NLT, 5G with zero output. The underlying story seems they have no product strategy, only reactions to the environment after the 787, which is understandable after it went haywire. But they are letting fear to be the main driver of their portfolio...
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:20 pm

PM wrote:
So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?


The 737YSAFDT. the 737 Yet Still Another Further Different Tweak. :stirthepot:
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DenverTed
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:23 pm

If a new CFRP wing is added today to any existing aircraft, would the world aviation authorities allow that, or have it certified as a new model? The 777x may have been the last model to be allowed that.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:29 pm

Just add the -10 gear to the -9, and more tanks for a -9LR. I can't see anything beyond that making sense.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:42 pm

Antaras wrote:
PM wrote:
So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?

No.

Boeing 737-10 Pro Max


MAXed out?
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:50 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Antaras wrote:
PM wrote:
So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?

No.

Boeing 737-10 Pro Max


MAXed out?


Nowadays it seems wiser to reduce to the MAX !
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:54 pm

Climax? :biggrin:
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:18 pm

Boeing needs to realize that their credibility has been virtually destroyed. They are no longer seen as an innovative company that is willing to take 747/757/767/777/787 levels of risk in order to bring new products to market. The Boeing Company of today is nothing more than a beancounter-driven organization that has become adept at avoiding change by applying bandages to outdated, inferior products in order to keep their existing product lines open.

The challenges facing Boeing are twofold: (1) How to overcome the reputation that they have crafted for themselves, and (2) How to find the courage, commitment and financial resources to design and produce another bold, innovative product for the world's airlines.

737-10, 5G, etc. is not the way.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Keesje is right - it needs to be able to take containers - they won't reuse the 737 Fuselage.


What are the ten largest operators of the A320 family and which of them use containers exclusively?


Network carriers, legacy carriers mostly use them. In the US mixed NB fleets (MD80/737, 757) didn't introduce them because of commonality of luggage handling systems and processes. Packing a big NB with bulk luggage is very slow / labor intensive under bad working conditions. And 1000lbs cargo packages aren't possible. The chances Boeing will pass on containers on a new NSA/NMA are close to zero. They put them in their NMA category patents: https://simpleflying.com/wp-content/upl ... 00x517.png. Until they can offer them on their aircraft, they'll downplay the advantages. But key customers didn't.

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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:49 pm

avier wrote:
Everytime I read a Boeing development thread, like this one, I read it as : "Boeing can't figure out what to do" =)

Antaras wrote:
PM wrote:
So, this would be the 737-MAX-PLUS?

No.

Boeing 737-10 Pro Max

Sounds a bit like smartphone naming. Like 737 MAX/Plus/MAX-Plus/Plus XR/Pro-MAX etc


That was the point it was a pun on the iphone pro max

DenverTed wrote:
Just add the -10 gear to the -9, and more tanks for a -9LR. I can't see anything beyond that making sense.


Yes 1000% agree.. The MAX10 is too much aircraft for some. Even without the extra tanks adding -10 gear to the -9 increases its performance. This should be a no brainer for Boeing.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:52 pm

DenverTed wrote:
If a new CFRP wing is added today to any existing aircraft, would the world aviation authorities allow that, or have it certified as a new model? The 777x may have been the last model to be allowed that.

I would think the type of wing would not have been the tipping point but I do think that needing to add FBW would be, because now you add all kinds of failure modes that are not present in the traditional 737 family.

DL747400 wrote:
Boeing needs to realize that their credibility has been virtually destroyed. They are no longer seen as an innovative company that is willing to take 747/757/767/777/787 levels of risk in order to bring new products to market. The Boeing Company of today is nothing more than a beancounter-driven organization that has become adept at avoiding change by applying bandages to outdated, inferior products in order to keep their existing product lines open.

The challenges facing Boeing are twofold: (1) How to overcome the reputation that they have crafted for themselves, and (2) How to find the courage, commitment and financial resources to design and produce another bold, innovative product for the world's airlines.

737-10, 5G, etc. is not the way.

I agree 5G is not the way. I still think we'll see a stepping stone approach where an all new product is introduced 5+ years from now with more payload/range than MAX10 so the MAX can still be viable, and once the big plane has EIS then we see a true MAX replacement rolled out 10+ years from now.

Either that, or Boeing goes the way of McDD, which is exactly what will happen if they don't get their act together.
Last edited by Revelation on Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:56 pm

Engineers at Boeing must be getting paid to play solitaire all day. What a boring job. They aren’t allowed to create and design and inject ingenuity and new tech. They are tasked with endless landing gear tweaks, winglets, engine tweeks and a new tail cone on a 1960’s airframe. Ridiculous. Apparently the MAX lesson has already been forgotten. “Hey let’s forge ahead with more 737 models with updates”....

It’s no wonder Airbus is eating their lunch
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:57 pm

eraugrad02 wrote:
I know Boeing has possibly thought of this but here goes,

What if Boeing did a 737-8ER? It would have the -9/-10's extra fuel tank and the -10's main landing gear to optimize its T/O performance. The plane would carry less than the A321NEOxLR but airlines could use the 737-8ER more flights/day.

Des,


Unlikely because it hurts both fuel economy CASM and - even worse - further aggravates the biggest challenge to long-haul narrowbody economics for legacies: labor economics.

The A321neo is pretty much the smallest viable narrowbody to consider for long-haul ops. It would be very, very hard for Boeing to profitably sell a 737-8ER given the materially less desirable operating economics.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:18 pm

Would this plane have 8 exits instead of 6?
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Would this plane have 8 exits instead of 6?

The 737-10 (and -9 and high capacity -8s) have 10 exits.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:16 pm

Polot wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Would this plane have 8 exits instead of 6?

The 737-10 (and -9 and high capacity -8s) have 10 exits.


Isn't this just an enhanced 757?
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:18 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Polot wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Would this plane have 8 exits instead of 6?

The 737-10 (and -9 and high capacity -8s) have 10 exits.


Isn't this just an enhanced 757?

I don’t understand what you mean. There are two exits at the front, two at the very back, 4 over wing exits, and two exits between the wing and the back of the fuselage. This is the same layout the A321neo and all its variants has moved to, and the same layout Boeing would likely continue to use.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:41 pm

Polot wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Polot wrote:
The 737-10 (and -9 and high capacity -8s) have 10 exits.


Isn't this just an enhanced 757?

I don’t understand what you mean. There are two exits at the front, two at the very back, 4 over wing exits, and two exits between the wing and the back of the fuselage. This is the same layout the A321neo and all its variants has moved to, and the same layout Boeing would likely continue to use.


Doesn't the 757 also have 8 exits (I count the double exits over the wing as 1)?
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:05 pm

DL747400 wrote:
The challenges facing Boeing are twofold: (1) How to overcome the reputation that they have crafted for themselves, and (2) How to find the courage, commitment and financial resources to design and produce another bold, innovative product for the world's airlines.

They can start with a trip through bankruptcy.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:08 am

[code][/code]
Ziyulu wrote:
Polot wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:

Isn't this just an enhanced 757?

I don’t understand what you mean. There are two exits at the front, two at the very back, 4 over wing exits, and two exits between the wing and the back of the fuselage. This is the same layout the A321neo and all its variants has moved to, and the same layout Boeing would likely continue to use.


Doesn't the 757 also have 8 exits (I count the double exits over the wing as 1)?


The 757 was available with different exit configurations. Either two exits in front of the wing and two exits aft (each side) or two exits in front, two overwing exits and one exit at the back.

Like this:

( [] -- [] ---- [] -- [] >

or

( [] -- [] -oo------[] >

767s were even available with three different door configs.
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:35 am

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Yes, and the bigger fan has more frontal drag and the bigger nacelle adds weight and cost as well.

People here thrive on simplistic comparisons such as higher BPR = better, heavier = worse, etc but it's often a part of a more complicated set of trade offs that need to be understood.


Nothing would have prevented Airbus from having a smaller diameter fan under the A320NEO. "Nothing" could have enabled Boeing from having a bigger diameter fan under the 737MAX. Only one of them was forced and it is probable Airbus engineers are not absolute idiots that put a inferior sized fan under their plane.


Not just Airbus, but UAC on the MC-21, COMAC on the C919, Bombardier on the C-series and Embraer on the E190/195E2 also went for the bigger fans. Boeing sticks out as the odd one here, with an aircraft that just so happens to be unable to fit the big fan. Everybody else saw an advantage in the big fan, not the small one.
 
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:41 am

DL747400 wrote:
Boeing needs to realize that their credibility has been virtually destroyed. They are no longer seen as an innovative company that is willing to take 747/757/767/777/787 levels of risk in order to bring new products to market. The Boeing Company of today is nothing more than a beancounter-driven organization that has become adept at avoiding change by applying bandages to outdated, inferior products in order to keep their existing product lines open.

The challenges facing Boeing are twofold: (1) How to overcome the reputation that they have crafted for themselves, and (2) How to find the courage, commitment and financial resources to design and produce another bold, innovative product for the world's airlines.

737-10, 5G, etc. is not the way.


Where are you getting the idea that Boeing doesn't have access to financial resources for a new project?

Boeing can design a 737 replacement and have it ready in about five years. The problem is there are no engines available or in the pipeline to make it worthwhile. Boeing wanted a 737 replacement in 2011 and publicly stated it. You all seem to forget that. The engine manufacturers are the problem.
 
744SPX
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 am

Boeing needs to stop beating the dead horse that is the 737 and cut it loose. 5G is obviously referring to the fact that this would be the FIFTH version of an aircraft that at its core is designed for regional flights. Unbelievable that they would even think of this. An insult to anybody who knows anything about aviation.

If they could get away with it (which so far, they have, at the cost of 346 lives) they would avoid ever having to build a new narrowbody.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:33 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Keesje is right - it needs to be able to take containers - they won't reuse the 737 Fuselage.


What are the ten largest operators of the A320 family and which of them use containers exclusively?


The 737 can take cargo containers. The only drawback is that they have to fit under the door since the 737 has inward opening cargo doors. Inward doors save weight and are less prone to failures, which saves money for airlines not wanting to use containers.

Image

Source

https://magazine.groundhandling.com/new ... boeing-737

“We are extremely excited that the system’s launch installation is on the 737, the most popular aircraft in the world,” said Anders Helmner, President and CEO of Telair International, AB, in Sweden. “The Flexible Loading System is an industry game-changer.”
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:49 am

Revelation wrote:
avier wrote:
Sounds a bit like smartphone naming. Like 737 MAX/Plus/MAX-Plus/Plus XR/Pro-MAX etc


Or female hygiene products.


The MAXI 10 for those heavy flow routes?
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:21 am

Even if Boeing made the B737-10 go up to 3900nmi. How can it complete with the XLR fuel burn? Unless the XLR is much heavier than the Max 10.
 
426Shadow
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:01 am

nine4nine wrote:
Engineers at Boeing must be getting paid to play solitaire all day. What a boring job. They aren’t allowed to create and design and inject ingenuity and new tech. They are tasked with endless landing gear tweaks, winglets, engine tweeks and a new tail cone on a 1960’s airframe. Ridiculous. Apparently the MAX lesson has already been forgotten. “Hey let’s forge ahead with more 737 models with updates”....

It’s no wonder Airbus is eating their lunch


With the exception of the A300 and A320NEO series of planes wouldn't it be safe to say that Airbus typically waits for Boeing to do something, get fully committed and then come along and try to outdo it by just repeating the formula with some tweaks?

A330 was a giant better 767, A340 was a giant better 707, A380 was a much to big for its time 747 clone, A350 original was a sad attempt to come at the much better 787, A350XWB is a 787 on steroids. How can you pretend that Airbus is leading because they are innovating rather than copy paste improving?
We are all just fanboys, our opinions don't make or break businesses.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:21 am

Copy paste? Serious?
Sometimes it's Boeing waiting until the final moment. Only after the A320 launch they beefed up the 737 to become the (super) NG. Only after the CSeries and the neo they tried the same engines on the 737. They were too hesitant from my point of view for a long time. Now with no money its even harder to lead the pack.
Last edited by Noshow on Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:23 am

426Shadow wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
Engineers at Boeing must be getting paid to play solitaire all day. What a boring job. They aren’t allowed to create and design and inject ingenuity and new tech. They are tasked with endless landing gear tweaks, winglets, engine tweeks and a new tail cone on a 1960’s airframe. Ridiculous. Apparently the MAX lesson has already been forgotten. “Hey let’s forge ahead with more 737 models with updates”....

It’s no wonder Airbus is eating their lunch


With the exception of the A300 and A320NEO series of planes wouldn't it be safe to say that Airbus typically waits for Boeing to do something, get fully committed and then come along and try to outdo it by just repeating the formula with some tweaks?

A330 was a giant better 767, A340 was a giant better 707, A380 was a much to big for its time 747 clone, A350 original was a sad attempt to come at the much better 787, A350XWB is a 787 on steroids. How can you pretend that Airbus is leading because they are innovating rather than copy paste improving?


A330 just a giant better 767? The A340 just a giant better 707? With twice the capacity and range? Deary me.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:38 am

MrHMSH wrote:
426Shadow wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
Engineers at Boeing must be getting paid to play solitaire all day. What a boring job. They aren’t allowed to create and design and inject ingenuity and new tech. They are tasked with endless landing gear tweaks, winglets, engine tweeks and a new tail cone on a 1960’s airframe. Ridiculous. Apparently the MAX lesson has already been forgotten. “Hey let’s forge ahead with more 737 models with updates”....

It’s no wonder Airbus is eating their lunch


With the exception of the A300 and A320NEO series of planes wouldn't it be safe to say that Airbus typically waits for Boeing to do something, get fully committed and then come along and try to outdo it by just repeating the formula with some tweaks?

A330 was a giant better 767, A340 was a giant better 707, A380 was a much to big for its time 747 clone, A350 original was a sad attempt to come at the much better 787, A350XWB is a 787 on steroids. How can you pretend that Airbus is leading because they are innovating rather than copy paste improving?


A330 just a giant better 767? The A340 just a giant better 707? With twice the capacity and range? Deary me.


We could flip most of those around. The 767 was just a sad copy of the A300, the first widebody twin. The 787 and 777 just tweaked copies of the A330 etc.


426Shadow wrote:
How can you pretend that Airbus is leading because they are innovating rather than copy paste improving?


I don't get your reasoning here. If Airbus is just copy-pasting and lightly improving Boeing designs, doesn't that suggest that Boeing is pretty crap at designing aircraft? I mean, if it was so easy, then surely Boeing could have done it themselves?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:56 am

They both make very good aircrafts, if they didn't then they wouldn't be sharing the market. can we now focus on this -10 story.

I think Boeing did not go ahead with this idea. This 5G Boeing had in mind was basically a new plane if you ask me so i don't know how it would have saved them money from introducing a completely new jet. Because it was going to be a new wing, new fuselage, slimmed down tail section, FBW, so i am not sure what their angle here is. which as the article points out meant a different type certificate and which would probably mean Sim time would be needed. also a modified 737 fuselage to improve runway performance and a resized vertical fin
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:00 am

From the article, Boeing also believed that the technology for a new 737 replacement was simply not ready. They also believe that airbus is going to do one more iteration of the A321XLR with composite wing before a full blownout a320 replacement which they believe the technology for a launch will only be available in the 2030s. So does that mean we may not see completely new short haul jets till about mid to late 2030s?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:12 am

My take on this project. Boeing should give it a rest; focus on maximising the profitability of your existing portfolio. The 737 MAX will sell, clearly no where near as well as the a320neo and that is absolutely fine. Sell what you can. You have a very very good proposition with the 787 continue to push that jet. The 777X will have its day eventually just keep delivering for those who will take them as they arrive and work to continue to secure orders around the world; its a very good jet. Some times the best thing to do is actually focus on your own lane. Boeing is not in a position to be chasing airbus in circles. Begin to harness the talent you will need for the 2030s - the decade of new narrowbodies clearly. they have to bring themselves out of this whole. And in the 2030s release a killer jet that customers simply cannot refuse. They have done it with the 777, they have done it with the 787 (even with all the problems that plagued the aircraft) so they can do it again, they just need to refocus.

Also to Add: They also have a very strong cargo business, they are basically the only ones with a cargo business. Harness that; look into a 777XF if thats what customers want

You lose some, You win some. It is just sad that the loss just came from their absolute negligence as a Company.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:20 am

Oykie wrote:
william wrote:
https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/all-new-boeing-jet-is-vaporware-but-5g-max-revamp-comes-to-light/

Clean sheet off the table but nip and tuck to the 737-10 to make it at least viable against the A321. A plane customers actually want instead of a laughable bargaining chip in A321 negotiations.

Code name 5G

"The technology isn’t available to justify a $10 billion to $15 billion all-new moonshot development today. However, as Boeing watches Airbus and the A321neo and incoming A321XLR tilt single-aisle market share in favor of the European plane maker, an ambitious, but less costly effort to rethink the struggling 737 Max 10 — known internally as the 5G — was being actively studied by Boeing just prior to the onset of the pandemic, The Air Current has learned."


While it seem to be too much of an update, I have been thinking a lot about how Boeing best can get out of the troubles they have had with the grounding of the MAX and make their portfolio more competitive versus Airbus and the A320. I am sure everyone reading end posting here, has thought a lot about this and there has also been many ideas from just getting the 737MAX back in the air to building an NSA, NMA or MOM. And then there is the occasional 757MAX.

Very short term the 737MAX has been deemed safe enough to to RTS and will do so in a small scale within a few weeks. I will have no worry about flying the 737MAX and must admit I look forward to being a passenger.

Personally I would like Boeing to make a plastic NMA with a lot of crew commonality with the 787. Making the plane more electric and digital will help with reliability and safety. The 737 is a stand alone product in a portfolio. While there are so many of them this is a weak spot in the Boeing portfolio. The 777/777X and 787 are much more similar. But this would be a higher risk than just letting the 737 return to service and do nothing.

But there is some risk to do nothing. While the 737MAX is deemed safe to return to service, its main computers have the same processing technology as the Super Nintendo. The big scrutiny it has been through has shown that those Super Nintendo Computers are making the workload during emergencies very high. The 737-10 is required to have a third AoA sensor before EIS. The A32LR and A321XLR have a bigger MTOW than the 737.

That has made me think about the 737-200 advanced. It was a big improvement over the original 737-200 and I have been thinking if something similar would be the best approach for Boeing. Could Boeing do something about the workload for pilots, add third AoA sensor and increase MTOW to close the gap between the 737 MAX 10 and the A321? A 737 Max 10 advanced. :-D Is it even possible to replace the Super Nintendo processors?


If you look a bit wider you can see that a strategy sticking to an existing product lines, supply chains, jobs, mostly won over the last 50 years.

Protecting existing jobs, government contracts, milking cash cows, instead of renewing often won the day. Adding better engines, systems, cockpits was good enough.

I think it basically killed the once dominant US helicopter industry. Also programs like C130, F15, F16, F18, Black Hawk, Apache, Chinook are supported by local politicians via committees to stay in place as long as possible (40-60 years) and then some more. It protects jobs, avoids investment, creates cash cows, pork barrel contracts, however it is named. If you have competition working from a different environment and markets open up, things go South though.

We discussed a bigger more capable 737 years ago,https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1339395, but Boeing was still entangled in their short term, stock value boosting period, keeping everybody happy successfully, with ambitious outlooks, MoM/NMA promises, record stock value and dividends. That had nothing to do with realistic long term portfolio management.

I think by now, it is sinking in the 737MAX is not good enough for 2020-2030 and a moon-shot (incl. conversion rights) 737 successor should be on the table. If not, things could get even uglier.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Boeing turning attention to 737-10

Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:29 am

keesje wrote:
If you look a bit wider you can see that a strategy sticking to an existing product lines, supply chains, jobs, mostly won over the last 50 years.

Protecting existing jobs, government contracts, milking cash cows, instead of renewing often won the day. Adding better engines, systems, cockpits was good enough.


That really is nonsense. 757, 767, 777, 787 all were commercially successful (and without launch aid!) The beef is with MAX.

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