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User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8644
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:11 pm

Gemuser wrote:
Toenga wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Now for Arden and Morrison to get into the same room as each other, make up and Open the Tasman in time for Christmas.


It needs a lot more then Morrison, who has to date distinguished himself as a sideline line sitter.
It needs Australian State Premiers as well to agree:
A common definition of "hotspot".
NZ and other Australian States have clearly flagged the Federsl and NSW definition of 3 community cases per day a rolling three daty average is far too liberal to be considered.
https://theconversation.com/one-way-tra ... ber-147363
An agreed action plan to isolate any "hotspot" and agreed repatriation protocol measures for out of state, out of country, travellers, from such "hotspots"
to be returned to their homes without endangering their home communities.
This has been spelt out in NZ submissions, and probably some State Government submissions, to the Australia Federal Government, now for some months to avail.

Actually it does NOT require state government approval they have to do as they are told BECAUSE it is a "treaty with a foregin power". the power to make such treaties and what they contain is SOLELY up to the Commonwealth.
Undoubtly there would be political fall out but the Commonwealth does not HAVE to negotiate with the states.

Gemuser


You are, of course, absolutely correct, but it isn’t that simple. In Australia the health response is a state matter, and right now different states have different rules about “hotspot” status, quarantine etc. This was raised by Ardern as one of the biggest sticking points, as the risk appetite of NSW in particular to accept some low level transmission is unacceptable to New Zealand.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5119
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:38 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
Toenga wrote:
Actually it does NOT require state government approval they have to do as they are told BECAUSE it is a "treaty with a foregin power". the power to make such treaties and what they contain is SOLELY up to the Commonwealth.
Undoubtly there would be political fall out but the Commonwealth does not HAVE to negotiate with the states.
Gemuser


You are, of course, absolutely correct, but it isn’t that simple. In Australia the health response is a state matter, and right now different states have different rules about “hotspot” status, quarantine etc. This was raised by Ardern as one of the biggest sticking points, as the risk appetite of NSW in particular to accept some low level transmission is unacceptable to New Zealand.


Actually IF these requirements are REQUIRED by an international treaty the states have no option but to comply. So, if required, under an international treaty the Commonwealth CAN impose ANY restrictions/requirements/details on the states. The "external affairs power" is absoult and binding on the states, this was settled many years ago by the High Court [I forget the details but at least one case involved the Beljki-Peterson government in Qld.]

Now wether Scomo is prepared to ware the political fallout from the states is entirely another matter, but if he is smarter than I think he is, he could easily carry the electorate with the argument that it is the best outcome for all. Whatever he does have the power, if he has an international treaty requiring it.

Gemuser
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5119
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:46 pm

Toenga in reply 300 wrote:
Yes, but for the fact that many of the measures NZ requires to achieve the required level of safety are for the states, to provide, and beyond the capacity of the Federal Government, to mandate their provision

See my reply above. The Commonwealth government has the capacity to do ANYTHING that is required to comply with a international treaty, WITHOUT LIMITS!
If it has the guts to do so is entirely another matter.
Gemuser
 
Toenga
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:47 am

Gemuser wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Gemuser wrote:

You are, of course, absolutely correct, but it isn’t that simple. In Australia the health response is a state matter, and right now different states have different rules about “hotspot” status, quarantine etc. This was raised by Ardern as one of the biggest sticking points, as the risk appetite of NSW in particular to accept some low level transmission is unacceptable to New Zealand.


Actually IF these requirements are REQUIRED by an international treaty the states have no option but to comply. So, if required, under an international treaty the Commonwealth CAN impose ANY restrictions/requirements/details on the states. The "external affairs power" is absoult and binding on the states, this was settled many years ago by the High Court [I forget the details but at least one case involved the Beljki-Peterson government in Qld.]

Now wether Scomo is prepared to ware the political fallout from the states is entirely another matter, but if he is smarter than I think he is, he could easily carry the electorate with the argument that it is the best outcome for all. Whatever he does have the power, if he has an international treaty requiring it.

Gemuser


Hence the problem. Regardless of whether Morrison has the power to direct the States to modify their health systems, quarantine systems, hot spot definition etc, to meet an international treaty, he would have to first convince the NZ government, that without full agreement from the states, and most importantly their chief medical officers, that the required arrangements would be sufficiently robust. Morrison's ill advised attempted legal intervention in repealing WA border restrictions, and his public spats with Queensland and Victorian Premiers over their states covid responses, shows he has not, to date, been sufficiently in tune with the required health first, detailed approach that has served NZ, and most Australian States so well.
But again, these things should not be insurmountable, and the potential rewards very substantial. But a mere "trust us" and we can have it done by whatever, from Morrison, or Alan Joyce will not suffice. Workable detail is still required.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2818
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:14 am

Toenga wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:


Actually IF these requirements are REQUIRED by an international treaty the states have no option but to comply. So, if required, under an international treaty the Commonwealth CAN impose ANY restrictions/requirements/details on the states. The "external affairs power" is absoult and binding on the states, this was settled many years ago by the High Court [I forget the details but at least one case involved the Beljki-Peterson government in Qld.]

Now wether Scomo is prepared to ware the political fallout from the states is entirely another matter, but if he is smarter than I think he is, he could easily carry the electorate with the argument that it is the best outcome for all. Whatever he does have the power, if he has an international treaty requiring it.

Gemuser


Hence the problem. Regardless of whether Morrison has the power to direct the States to modify their health systems, quarantine systems, hot spot definition etc, to meet an international treaty, he would have to first convince the NZ government, that without full agreement from the states, and most importantly their chief medical officers, that the required arrangements would be sufficiently robust. Morrison's ill advised attempted legal intervention in repealing WA border restrictions, and his public spats with Queensland and Victorian Premiers over their states covid responses, shows he has not, to date, been sufficiently in tune with the required health first, detailed approach that has served NZ, and most Australian States so well.
But again, these things should not be insurmountable, and the potential rewards very substantial. But a mere "trust us" and we can have it done by whatever, from Morrison, or Alan Joyce will not suffice. Workable detail is still required.


You're overthinking it.

While New Zealand claims all of this is "necessary", it isn't at all. As demonstrated entirely by Australia opening it's international borders to New Zealanders, quarantine-free. None of the conditions you've detailed are, it turns out, necessary. If there was a flare up of significance it is pretty straightforward to reimpose borders and require quarantine on re-entry. It would be a risk travellers would take. But with all the documentation and passenger records, it's a fairly straightforward process to track at-risk people,

I suspect the truth is that the New Zealand authorities aren't confident in their own systems for track and tracing in the event there is a flare up. Which, frankly, is entirely on the New Zealand government. I recently saw examples of the horrendously conflicting and contradictory advice given to a family that had potentially been exposed from about a month ago - dog's breakfast. Remarkable after all this time but no one in New Zealand seems to be asking the question and with Air NZ being beholden to their government masters, you aren't seeing any effort to drive the issue by the airlines themselves, a la la Qantas.

We're now entering a scenario where neither country will have any community transmission and no active cases in the community, but one side refusing to open borders because of some claimed bureaucratic needs, which are really really unlikely to be met. Let alone any prospect of learning to live with low level transmission. How very Ardern.
 
Toenga
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:31 am

aerokiwi wrote:
Toenga wrote:
Gemuser wrote:

Actually IF these requirements are REQUIRED by an international treaty the states have no option but to comply. So, if required, under an international treaty the Commonwealth CAN impose ANY restrictions/requirements/details on the states. The "external affairs power" is absoult and binding on the states, this was settled many years ago by the High Court [I forget the details but at least one case involved the Beljki-Peterson government in Qld.]

Now wether Scomo is prepared to ware the political fallout from the states is entirely another matter, but if he is smarter than I think he is, he could easily carry the electorate with the argument that it is the best outcome for all. Whatever he does have the power, if he has an international treaty requiring it.

Gemuser


Hence the problem. Regardless of whether Morrison has the power to direct the States to modify their health systems, quarantine systems, hot spot definition etc, to meet an international treaty, he would have to first convince the NZ government, that without full agreement from the states, and most importantly their chief medical officers, that the required arrangements would be sufficiently robust. Morrison's ill advised attempted legal intervention in repealing WA border restrictions, and his public spats with Queensland and Victorian Premiers over their states covid responses, shows he has not, to date, been sufficiently in tune with the required health first, detailed approach that has served NZ, and most Australian States so well.
But again, these things should not be insurmountable, and the potential rewards very substantial. But a mere "trust us" and we can have it done by whatever, from Morrison, or Alan Joyce will not suffice. Workable detail is still required.


You're overthinking it.

While New Zealand claims all of this is "necessary", it isn't at all. As demonstrated entirely by Australia opening it's international borders to New Zealanders, quarantine-free. None of the conditions you've detailed are, it turns out, necessary. If there was a flare up of significance it is pretty straightforward to reimpose borders and require quarantine on re-entry. It would be a risk travellers would take. But with all the documentation and passenger records, it's a fairly straightforward process to track at-risk people,

I suspect the truth is that the New Zealand authorities aren't confident in their own systems for track and tracing in the event there is a flare up. Which, frankly, is entirely on the New Zealand government. I recently saw examples of the horrendously conflicting and contradictory advice given to a family that had potentially been exposed from about a month ago - dog's breakfast. Remarkable after all this time but no one in New Zealand seems to be asking the question and with Air NZ being beholden to their government masters, you aren't seeing any effort to drive the issue by the airlines themselves, a la la Qantas.

We're now entering a scenario where neither country will have any community transmission and no active cases in the community, but one side refusing to open borders because of some claimed bureaucratic needs, which are really really unlikely to be met. Let alone any prospect of learning to live with low level transmission. How very Ardern.


NZ has indicated, that an agreed hotspot regime, rather then 28day elimination, will be acceptable with agreed and proven contact tracing, isolation, testing , and if required, local isolation and quarantine measures. It is indeed itself, currently operating under this regime, with absolutely minimal covid controls, in spite of being many days short of 28days to claim current elimination.
The recent scare in South Australia, thankfully a near false alarm, showed that, non local contact tracing, and repatriation arrangements from hotspot areas, to covid free states, or in our case, our country are still lacking. With potentially thousands of non citizens being caught in a hot spot, outbreak how would their care, and repatriation be arranged given the extremly limited border isolation/quarantine capacities on both sides of the Tasman? Already the lack of agreed arrangements, even between Australian states, has caused massive grief during the Victorian outbreak, without the added complication of cross border access to quarantine facilities and international welfare issues.
Arrangements, while probably quite achievable, need to be agreed prior to border opening, not adhoced, during an inevitable further outbreak.
Reducing covid infections to within border facilities, and quickly traceable transmissions from those facilities is very achievable, as now proved in NZ and now in all states and territories in Australia, even NSW, who with the Federal Government and the Murdoch press maintained it was not possible.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8644
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:14 am

aerokiwi wrote:
Toenga wrote:
Gemuser wrote:

Actually IF these requirements are REQUIRED by an international treaty the states have no option but to comply. So, if required, under an international treaty the Commonwealth CAN impose ANY restrictions/requirements/details on the states. The "external affairs power" is absoult and binding on the states, this was settled many years ago by the High Court [I forget the details but at least one case involved the Beljki-Peterson government in Qld.]

Now wether Scomo is prepared to ware the political fallout from the states is entirely another matter, but if he is smarter than I think he is, he could easily carry the electorate with the argument that it is the best outcome for all. Whatever he does have the power, if he has an international treaty requiring it.

Gemuser


Hence the problem. Regardless of whether Morrison has the power to direct the States to modify their health systems, quarantine systems, hot spot definition etc, to meet an international treaty, he would have to first convince the NZ government, that without full agreement from the states, and most importantly their chief medical officers, that the required arrangements would be sufficiently robust. Morrison's ill advised attempted legal intervention in repealing WA border restrictions, and his public spats with Queensland and Victorian Premiers over their states covid responses, shows he has not, to date, been sufficiently in tune with the required health first, detailed approach that has served NZ, and most Australian States so well.
But again, these things should not be insurmountable, and the potential rewards very substantial. But a mere "trust us" and we can have it done by whatever, from Morrison, or Alan Joyce will not suffice. Workable detail is still required.


You're overthinking it.

While New Zealand claims all of this is "necessary", it isn't at all. As demonstrated entirely by Australia opening it's international borders to New Zealanders, quarantine-free. None of the conditions you've detailed are, it turns out, necessary. If there was a flare up of significance it is pretty straightforward to reimpose borders and require quarantine on re-entry. It would be a risk travellers would take. But with all the documentation and passenger records, it's a fairly straightforward process to track at-risk people,

I suspect the truth is that the New Zealand authorities aren't confident in their own systems for track and tracing in the event there is a flare up. Which, frankly, is entirely on the New Zealand government. I recently saw examples of the horrendously conflicting and contradictory advice given to a family that had potentially been exposed from about a month ago - dog's breakfast. Remarkable after all this time but no one in New Zealand seems to be asking the question and with Air NZ being beholden to their government masters, you aren't seeing any effort to drive the issue by the airlines themselves, a la la Qantas.

We're now entering a scenario where neither country will have any community transmission and no active cases in the community, but one side refusing to open borders because of some claimed bureaucratic needs, which are really really unlikely to be met. Let alone any prospect of learning to live with low level transmission. How very Ardern.


Ardern said that NSW not closing their border to SA was the final straw. She said that it’s apparent that the Australian states don’t have an agreed methodology, and therefore it was impossible to negotiate with a moving target, especially when the risk appetite was too high to accord with New Zealand’s policies.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2818
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:34 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
Toenga wrote:

Hence the problem. Regardless of whether Morrison has the power to direct the States to modify their health systems, quarantine systems, hot spot definition etc, to meet an international treaty, he would have to first convince the NZ government, that without full agreement from the states, and most importantly their chief medical officers, that the required arrangements would be sufficiently robust. Morrison's ill advised attempted legal intervention in repealing WA border restrictions, and his public spats with Queensland and Victorian Premiers over their states covid responses, shows he has not, to date, been sufficiently in tune with the required health first, detailed approach that has served NZ, and most Australian States so well.
But again, these things should not be insurmountable, and the potential rewards very substantial. But a mere "trust us" and we can have it done by whatever, from Morrison, or Alan Joyce will not suffice. Workable detail is still required.


You're overthinking it.

While New Zealand claims all of this is "necessary", it isn't at all. As demonstrated entirely by Australia opening it's international borders to New Zealanders, quarantine-free. None of the conditions you've detailed are, it turns out, necessary. If there was a flare up of significance it is pretty straightforward to reimpose borders and require quarantine on re-entry. It would be a risk travellers would take. But with all the documentation and passenger records, it's a fairly straightforward process to track at-risk people,

I suspect the truth is that the New Zealand authorities aren't confident in their own systems for track and tracing in the event there is a flare up. Which, frankly, is entirely on the New Zealand government. I recently saw examples of the horrendously conflicting and contradictory advice given to a family that had potentially been exposed from about a month ago - dog's breakfast. Remarkable after all this time but no one in New Zealand seems to be asking the question and with Air NZ being beholden to their government masters, you aren't seeing any effort to drive the issue by the airlines themselves, a la la Qantas.

We're now entering a scenario where neither country will have any community transmission and no active cases in the community, but one side refusing to open borders because of some claimed bureaucratic needs, which are really really unlikely to be met. Let alone any prospect of learning to live with low level transmission. How very Ardern.


Ardern said that NSW not closing their border to SA was the final straw. She said that it’s apparent that the Australian states don’t have an agreed methodology, and therefore it was impossible to negotiate with a moving target, especially when the risk appetite was too high to accord with New Zealand’s policies.


Yeah well aware of what she said. It just doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. But then domestic border closures between negligible case states never really did after the first wave anyway.

The fact you have a foreign leader citing domestic freedom of movement for Australians as a delay tactic is pretty pathetic. She's covering for her own government's ongoing failure to create a decent track and trace system. If you follow her government you learn pretty quickly that delivery is not its strong point so all true to form.

Toenga cites a lengthy justification for it except it's all negated by effective track and trace. But shrug, whatevs! A prime opportunity to revitalise the local aviation sector, tourism and hospitality, alongside countless family connections, all goes wanting because of the vagaries of lightweight leadership.

Meanwhile, Australia manages to take Kiwis just fine. Weird huh?
 
Toenga
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:17 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:

You're overthinking it.

While New Zealand claims all of this is "necessary", it isn't at all. As demonstrated entirely by Australia opening it's international borders to New Zealanders, quarantine-free. None of the conditions you've detailed are, it turns out, necessary. If there was a flare up of significance it is pretty straightforward to reimpose borders and require quarantine on re-entry. It would be a risk travellers would take. But with all the documentation and passenger records, it's a fairly straightforward process to track at-risk people,

I suspect the truth is that the New Zealand authorities aren't confident in their own systems for track and tracing in the event there is a flare up. Which, frankly, is entirely on the New Zealand government. I recently saw examples of the horrendously conflicting and contradictory advice given to a family that had potentially been exposed from about a month ago - dog's breakfast. Remarkable after all this time but no one in New Zealand seems to be asking the question and with Air NZ being beholden to their government masters, you aren't seeing any effort to drive the issue by the airlines themselves, a la la Qantas.

We're now entering a scenario where neither country will have any community transmission and no active cases in the community, but one side refusing to open borders because of some claimed bureaucratic needs, which are really really unlikely to be met. Let alone any prospect of learning to live with low level transmission. How very Ardern.


Ardern said that NSW not closing their border to SA was the final straw. She said that it’s apparent that the Australian states don’t have an agreed methodology, and therefore it was impossible to negotiate with a moving target, especially when the risk appetite was too high to accord with New Zealand’s policies.


Yeah well aware of what she said. It just doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. But then domestic border closures between negligible case states never really did after the first wave anyway.

The fact you have a foreign leader citing domestic freedom of movement for Australians as a delay tactic is pretty pathetic. She's covering for her own government's ongoing failure to create a decent track and trace system. If you follow her government you learn pretty quickly that delivery is not its strong point so all true to form.

Toenga cites a lengthy justification for it except it's all negated by effective track and trace. But shrug, whatevs! A prime opportunity to revitalise the local aviation sector, tourism and hospitality, alongside countless family connections, all goes wanting because of the vagaries of lightweight leadership.

Meanwhile, Australia manages to take Kiwis just fine. Weird huh?


NZ track and trace, after a shaky start has outperformed the excellent NSW system for some time.
We are actually a lot more open to the rest of the world then Australia, we do not have the equivalent ban on leaving the country, and our managed border isolation throughout is about 4x that of Auctralia's on a per head basis. The downside of this is that we have, relatively more exposure to covid border incursions, currently occuring at about one every two weeks, the latest an Air NZ employee that genome testing has verified was contacted on overseas deployment.
We have had 5 deaths per million, compared to 36. A domestic economy that has had to endure with a lot fewer covid restrictions then Australia. The Australian opening up the border to NZ showed vulnerabilities in the Australian contact tracing systems, when contact details dutifully entered on arrival cards were not forwarded to destination state authorities.

But the prime condition for opening the border now exists, near zero community transmission. It is such a pity the next steps have not been achieved.

If there is any lightweight leadership it is the Federal PM, in not getting those important agreed cross state and international systems and protocols for contact tracing, that is as mobile as tourists, and agreed outbreak control and repatriation measures. He can't even get an agreed definition of a hotspot for an outbreak. Like coping with any National emergency such as the simultaneous multiple bushfires, it does require leadership to step up to ensure close cooperation across those State Borders.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8644
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:12 pm

Toenga wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

Ardern said that NSW not closing their border to SA was the final straw. She said that it’s apparent that the Australian states don’t have an agreed methodology, and therefore it was impossible to negotiate with a moving target, especially when the risk appetite was too high to accord with New Zealand’s policies.


Yeah well aware of what she said. It just doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. But then domestic border closures between negligible case states never really did after the first wave anyway.

The fact you have a foreign leader citing domestic freedom of movement for Australians as a delay tactic is pretty pathetic. She's covering for her own government's ongoing failure to create a decent track and trace system. If you follow her government you learn pretty quickly that delivery is not its strong point so all true to form.

Toenga cites a lengthy justification for it except it's all negated by effective track and trace. But shrug, whatevs! A prime opportunity to revitalise the local aviation sector, tourism and hospitality, alongside countless family connections, all goes wanting because of the vagaries of lightweight leadership.

Meanwhile, Australia manages to take Kiwis just fine. Weird huh?


NZ track and trace, after a shaky start has outperformed the excellent NSW system for some time.
We are actually a lot more open to the rest of the world then Australia, we do not have the equivalent ban on leaving the country, and our managed border isolation throughout is about 4x that of Auctralia's on a per head basis. The downside of this is that we have, relatively more exposure to covid border incursions, currently occuring at about one every two weeks, the latest an Air NZ employee that genome testing has verified was contacted on overseas deployment.
We have had 5 deaths per million, compared to 36. A domestic economy that has had to endure with a lot fewer covid restrictions then Australia. The Australian opening up the border to NZ showed vulnerabilities in the Australian contact tracing systems, when contact details dutifully entered on arrival cards were not forwarded to destination state authorities.

But the prime condition for opening the border now exists, near zero community transmission. It is such a pity the next steps have not been achieved.

If there is any lightweight leadership it is the Federal PM, in not getting those important agreed cross state and international systems and protocols for contact tracing, that is as mobile as tourists, and agreed outbreak control and repatriation measures. He can't even get an agreed definition of a hotspot for an outbreak. Like coping with any National emergency such as the simultaneous multiple bushfires, it does require leadership to step up to ensure close cooperation across those State Borders.


I was in agreement with you until this post, but this is ridiculous. NSW is rightfully acknowledged as having one of the best test and trace systems in the world. The sheer volume of data that NSW collects and analyses is magnitudes larger than NZ. NZ didn’t have tens of thousands of people coming from Victoria in early July, didn’t have an outbreak linked to one of those people, and therefore didn’t have that outbreak peak at just 22 cases per day (indeed there was only one day over 20 cases), all while maintaining a relatively open economy (cf Auckland in late August). What NSW Health has achieved since July is actually incredible, given that it is known to be in the community, and especially given how relatively few restrictions NSW has had throughout that time.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Toenga
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:19 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Toenga wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:

Yeah well aware of what she said. It just doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. But then domestic border closures between negligible case states never really did after the first wave anyway.

The fact you have a foreign leader citing domestic freedom of movement for Australians as a delay tactic is pretty pathetic. She's covering for her own government's ongoing failure to create a decent track and trace system. If you follow her government you learn pretty quickly that delivery is not its strong point so all true to form.

Toenga cites a lengthy justification for it except it's all negated by effective track and trace. But shrug, whatevs! A prime opportunity to revitalise the local aviation sector, tourism and hospitality, alongside countless family connections, all goes wanting because of the vagaries of lightweight leadership.

Meanwhile, Australia manages to take Kiwis just fine. Weird huh?


NZ track and trace, after a shaky start has outperformed the excellent NSW system for some time.
We are actually a lot more open to the rest of the world then Australia, we do not have the equivalent ban on leaving the country, and our managed border isolation throughout is about 4x that of Auctralia's on a per head basis. The downside of this is that we have, relatively more exposure to covid border incursions, currently occuring at about one every two weeks, the latest an Air NZ employee that genome testing has verified was contacted on overseas deployment.
We have had 5 deaths per million, compared to 36. A domestic economy that has had to endure with a lot fewer covid restrictions then Australia. The Australian opening up the border to NZ showed vulnerabilities in the Australian contact tracing systems, when contact details dutifully entered on arrival cards were not forwarded to destination state authorities.

But the prime condition for opening the border now exists, near zero community transmission. It is such a pity the next steps have not been achieved.

If there is any lightweight leadership it is the Federal PM, in not getting those important agreed cross state and international systems and protocols for contact tracing, that is as mobile as tourists, and agreed outbreak control and repatriation measures. He can't even get an agreed definition of a hotspot for an outbreak. Like coping with any National emergency such as the simultaneous multiple bushfires, it does require leadership to step up to ensure close cooperation across those State Borders.


I was in agreement with you until this post, but this is ridiculous. NSW is rightfully acknowledged as having one of the best test and trace systems in the world. The sheer volume of data that NSW collects and analyses is magnitudes larger than NZ. NZ didn’t have tens of thousands of people coming from Victoria in early July, didn’t have an outbreak linked to one of those people, and therefore didn’t have that outbreak peak at just 22 cases per day (indeed there was only one day over 20 cases), all while maintaining a relatively open economy (cf Auckland in late August). What NSW Health has achieved since July is actually incredible, given that it is known to be in the community, and especially given how relatively few restrictions NSW has had throughout that time.


Looking at the figures, I have to concede that NSW test and trace performance has, and is, spectacular. Up with the absolute world best.
The fact that NZ has been able to quickly contain the last four or five border incursions with minimal onward transmission, and without upping alert levels from level 1, border controls only, is now testament that our system is now up there too, but perhaps does not have the NSW surge capacity.
There is no doubt that NSW provided a working model, for upgrading the NZ system to a now comparable standard.
There is also no doubt, that there is constant dialogue between the various State, and the NZ, Chief Medical Officers , relatively free from any political intervention. This sharing of knowledge, and the acceptance of their advice, by their political masters, has stood both countries incredibly well.
My feeling is that the Federal Government is not quite in the same loop.
As I have said, I think there is sufficient competence within State, and Central Government officials to produce workable and acceptably safe protocols.
The Australasian covid performance is something we can be proud of.
This performance though, was only obtained because of clear effective leadership, and forward planning on the trot and even on the gallop, at times. The effects of chance were minimised by planning ahead for any possible eventualities with counter measures.
 
moa999
Posts: 1046
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:31 pm

While the states chat there are definitely differing views.

My personal view is that state borders shouldn't matter but each state should be ready to lock down suburbs/cities if there are potential outbreaks.

I'd actually argue SAs lockdown was too broad.
But I'd disagree that NSW needed to ban all SA travellers other than perhaps certain postcodes.

You definitely need to stop a flee mentality (is. Those people in a hotspot who jump on a plane to avoid lockdown) but it should be stopping them before they get on a plane.
 
Aviator34ID
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:34 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:49 pm

Toenga wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:


If there is any lightweight leadership it is the Federal PM, in not getting those important agreed cross state and international systems and protocols for contact tracing, that is as mobile as tourists, and agreed outbreak control and repatriation measures. He can't even get an agreed definition of a hotspot for an outbreak. Like coping with any National emergency such as the simultaneous multiple bushfires, it does require leadership to step up to ensure close cooperation across those State Borders.


You clearly do not live in a federation! Health matters are unequivocally a state jurisdiction in Australia. The National Cabinet has worked pretty well, particularly in the early months, but if a state Premier wants to close the border, then there is nothing the PM can do about it. He tried in WA but with the Premier having an 89% approval rating for the closure he wisely withdrew.
 
Toenga
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:00 am

moa999 wrote:
While the states chat there are definitely differing views.

My personal view is that state borders shouldn't matter but each state should be ready to lock down suburbs/cities if there are potential outbreaks.

I'd actually argue SAs lockdown was too broad.
But I'd disagree that NSW needed to ban all SA travellers other than perhaps certain postcodes.

You definitely need to stop a flee mentality (is. Those people in a hotspot who jump on a plane to avoid lockdown) but it should be stopping them before they get on a plane.


I agree. Both the Melbourne city, and Auckland city lockdowns demonstrated that State or National boundaries may well be too arbitary and unnecessarily restrictive to contain some outbreaks. What I think NZ is still wanting, is some evidence of actual containment planning ahead of any possible outbreak. I am sure this exists for some places already but not all. Really just an extension to civil defence type planning.
 
Toenga
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:19 am

Aviator34ID wrote:
Toenga wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:


You clearly do not live in a federation! Health matters are unequivocally a state jurisdiction in Australia. The National Cabinet has worked pretty well, particularly in the early months, but if a state Premier wants to close the border, then there is nothing the PM can do about it. He tried in WA but with the Premier having an 89% approval rating for the closure he wisely withdrew.


That is my point entirely. NZ recognises that State Governments must be involved in every stage of the planning and implementation of a Transtasman travel bubble, something your PM seems to have trouble grasping. Your State governments have very considerable credibility in controlling covid. Their approaches to differing levels of transmission have largely mirrored by our own. Indeed the accepted definition of "elimination" as 28days without community transmission was I think, first used by WA. But your PM has loudly stated that "elimination" is not an Australian goal, and that NSW if, and it looks incredibly likely, will have got there more or less as an accident. It is absolutly no accident that NSW has controlled covid as succesfully as it has. It was extraordinarily good work, as was Victoria's recovery from such a serious outbreak. And WA for having the systems that more or less prevented any further outbreaks.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2758
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:44 am

The Federal Government stated that elimination was not a goal but thorough suppression was. Elimination is a global challenge so claiming to have eliminated the virus with international borders completely closed is a half-truth at best. Contact tracing is a key to inevitable pockets that will come as travelers return; NSW appears to have always done this very well whilst Victoria's efforts earlier this year were hopeless. Victoria now believes it has overcome its issues and it appears it is now able to work from a base that should mean it can manage any minor outbreak resulting from returning travelers.

Insofar as opening the borders to NZ are concerned, this is completely on the NZ Government. Australia has enabled NZ residents to enter the country quarantine free but NZ has decided not to reciprocate. On that basis, I assume NZ will remain closed to everywhere until a vaccine is widely distributed given Australia and NZ are amongst the most successfully suppressed countries anywhere. I am puzzled why Ardern wants to inflict unnecessary pain on her tourist sector but that is her choice and she will have to support these sectors as the consequences hit home. With the state borders reopening, Australians have shown they are ready to spend on travel but NZ doesn't want to participate and that is their right however perplexing the decision may be.

In relation to overseas borders, this is unequivocally the responsibility of the Federal Government though, through National Cabinet, the states have a right to express an opinion but any decision, ultimately, rests with the Federal Government.

I personally now doubt there will ever be a trans-Tasman bubble and the Australian Government will probably look to establish bubbles elsewhere with Singapore top of the list. Like Australia, Singapore seems to have suppressed the virus but understands break-outs are possible and both countries have systems in place to control the clusters and the economic damage of remaining completely locked down to other successfully suppressed countries is just too much.
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IndianicWorld
Posts: 3424
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:08 am

tullamarine wrote:
The Federal Government stated that elimination was not a goal but thorough suppression was. Elimination is a global challenge so claiming to have eliminated the virus with international borders completely closed is a half-truth at best. Contact tracing is a key to inevitable pockets that will come as travelers return; NSW appears to have always done this very well whilst Victoria's efforts earlier this year were hopeless. Victoria now believes it has overcome its issues and it appears it is now able to work from a base that should mean it can manage any minor outbreak resulting from returning travelers.

Insofar as opening the borders to NZ are concerned, this is completely on the NZ Government. Australia has enabled NZ residents to enter the country quarantine free but NZ has decided not to reciprocate. On that basis, I assume NZ will remain closed to everywhere until a vaccine is widely distributed given Australia and NZ are amongst the most successfully suppressed countries anywhere. I am puzzled why Ardern wants to inflict unnecessary pain on her tourist sector but that is her choice and she will have to support these sectors as the consequences hit home. With the state borders reopening, Australians have shown they are ready to spend on travel but NZ doesn't want to participate and that is their right however perplexing the decision may be.

In relation to overseas borders, this is unequivocally the responsibility of the Federal Government though, through National Cabinet, the states have a right to express an opinion but any decision, ultimately, rests with the Federal Government.

I personally now doubt there will ever be a trans-Tasman bubble and the Australian Government will probably look to establish bubbles elsewhere with Singapore top of the list. Like Australia, Singapore seems to have suppressed the virus but understands break-outs are possible and both countries have systems in place to control the clusters and the economic damage of remaining completely locked down to other successfully suppressed countries is just too much.


There is a fear factor in making decisions to open borders, whether international or domestic, as there is certainly an element of luck required in catching outbreaks early. The economic damage that flows on from any large outbreak leads many to take a more conservative strategy overall.

The lessons learnt from Victoria were largely implemented in other state’s since, whether that be strengthening contact tracing systems, structures and policies, or overall control strategies. Even in saying that though, one just has to look at Adelaide as a prime example of how easy this can escape hotel quarantine, and the luck required to catch it early is key.

I don’t foresee NZ opening their borders for quarantine free travel to Australia anytime soon, as the risk appetites seem to be quite different. This current travel arrangement between the 2 countries though is not really that beneficial though, but it at least supports some aviation jobs during this period.

I would love to see travel bubbles between Australia and NZ, Singapore and Taiwan though, opening up business and leisure opportunities, boosting aviation and providing a strong signal of confidence.
 
myki
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:10 am

Has there been any further talk of HBA opening to international flights since first mentioned a few weeks back?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-07/ ... r/12859094
 
zkncj
Posts: 4176
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:20 am

myki wrote:
Has there been any further talk of HBA opening to international flights since first mentioned a few weeks back?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-07/ ... r/12859094


Nothing will happen until a) New Zealand opens its boarders to Australia or b) Tasmania becomes apart of New Zealand...

Both options currently seem just as unlikely as each other right now. Then there has to be an airline that is willing to fly the route, which would most likely want the service to be underwritten for any loses in the current environment.
 
openskies88
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:42 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:29 am

I'm becoming more and more confused about the viability of Rex launching jet services.

VA is now out of administration and is undergoing major ramping up of services, recalling over 400 cabin crew this month (now sitting at 700 operational cabin crew) with an additional 1000 block hours added for December to meet consumer demand.

January will see 13000 block hours with 950 cabin crew operating.

VA is in the process of positioning itself as a mid-market carrier, offering business class and lounges and a stripped-back economy class product at a more competitive price point. This is purely speculation, but I think business class will very much resemble the service offering of the US3 in first class, where you only get given a drink and a snack on legs as short as SYD-MEL and something more substantial on pairings that are 2+ hours.

So Rex will then be competing directly with Qantas in terms of hard and soft product by going full service in both cabins. Virgin tried to do that and failed, miserably. Virgin was also proof that even aggressive pricing wasn't enough to lure rusted-on Qantas frequent flyers. I really don't understand then what Rex will bring to the table as a point of difference.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3424
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:25 am

openskies88 wrote:
I'm becoming more and more confused about the viability of Rex launching jet services.

VA is now out of administration and is undergoing major ramping up of services, recalling over 400 cabin crew this month (now sitting at 700 operational cabin crew) with an additional 1000 block hours added for December to meet consumer demand.

January will see 13000 block hours with 950 cabin crew operating.

VA is in the process of positioning itself as a mid-market carrier, offering business class and lounges and a stripped-back economy class product at a more competitive price point. This is purely speculation, but I think business class will very much resemble the service offering of the US3 in first class, where you only get given a drink and a snack on legs as short as SYD-MEL and something more substantial on pairings that are 2+ hours.

So Rex will then be competing directly with Qantas in terms of hard and soft product by going full service in both cabins. Virgin tried to do that and failed, miserably. Virgin was also proof that even aggressive pricing wasn't enough to lure rusted-on Qantas frequent flyers. I really don't understand then what Rex will bring to the table as a point of difference.


I don’t recall Rex confirming exactly what product they will offer. Every report seemed to to suggest they were still deciding on their service offering, but that they would be keeping the business class seating.

The reality is that Rex has made its decision to proceed and will likely end up in the same space as VA. Taking on QF isn’t going to work our well, as it will likely not achieve the yields to make it work. It will be slowly trying to grow it’s network to give it a chance at securing more lucrative corporate contracts, but with QF and VA also pushing hard in that space, there is no denying they are starting in a far weaker position.

QF and JQ will certainly be well placed to squeeze both VA and Rex from both ends of the market. It is why DJ was trying to evolve even before the rebrand to VA, but VA will just have to ensure that they can actually sell the virtues of the offering, which isn’t quite clear yet.
 
moa999
Posts: 1046
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:52 am

Possibly part of an end game by Rex's Singapore interests.

Couple of years down the track, have a merger between Rex and Virgin Aus with a capital raising allowing Bain to get out and creating liquidity for the Rex shareholders.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3424
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:16 am

moa999 wrote:
Possibly part of an end game by Rex's Singapore interests.

Couple of years down the track, have a merger between Rex and Virgin Aus with a capital raising allowing Bain to get out and creating liquidity for the Rex shareholders.


I have suggested previously that a VA and Rex merger may well be a possibility, so wouldn’t surprise me.

There might be a time that both see each other’s mainline routes and regional services as a natural fit for both carriers. VA is now without a regional operation and will be using Alliance for some of its routes, but moving into the future there are many possibilities depending on the appetite of each investor group to continue on their chosen strategy.
 
myki
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:26 pm

Rex also has the addition of a regional network. Does it carry millions of pax? No, but on a few routes they are the only game in town. Narrandera to Brisbane? Well you will be able to go via SYD on the one ticket. I get this won't be many, but may help to take up a couple of seats on the golden triangle. Everything counts these days!
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:47 pm

Gemuser wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Gemuser wrote:

You are, of course, absolutely correct, but it isn’t that simple. In Australia the health response is a state matter, and right now different states have different rules about “hotspot” status, quarantine etc. This was raised by Ardern as one of the biggest sticking points, as the risk appetite of NSW in particular to accept some low level transmission is unacceptable to New Zealand.


Actually IF these requirements are REQUIRED by an international treaty the states have no option but to comply. So, if required, under an international treaty the Commonwealth CAN impose ANY restrictions/requirements/details on the states. The "external affairs power" is absoult and binding on the states, this was settled many years ago by the High Court [I forget the details but at least one case involved the Beljki-Peterson government in Qld.]

Now wether Scomo is prepared to ware the political fallout from the states is entirely another matter, but if he is smarter than I think he is, he could easily carry the electorate with the argument that it is the best outcome for all. Whatever he does have the power, if he has an international treaty requiring it.

Gemuser


Franklin Dam was the big one using External Affairs powers.
 
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qf789
Moderator
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:38 am

Qantas has announced today that 2000 ground handlers will be axed along with another 370 at JQ after the airline has decided to outsource those jobs through a third party provider

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 56j3v.html
Forum Moderator
 
smi0006
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:43 am

qf789 wrote:
Qantas has announced today that 2000 ground handlers will be axed along with another 370 at JQ after the airline has decided to outsource those jobs through a third party provider

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 56j3v.html


Does it list the suppliers?

I know JQ has already outsourced theirs:
MEL- Menzies
SYD- Swissport
BNE - Oceania

Be interesting if QF goes with a single provider or mixes it up with multiple - benefits and risks to both strategies! They will be lean and mean coming out the back of this crisis - AJs style, when you have a bad year make it a shocker, burn the place down and rebuild from scratch! Hope VA can compete, fascinating to see the VA/QF cost comparison now compare with 15yrs again along with both carriers ability to be agile and nimble!
 
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mercure1
Posts: 5172
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:59 am

QF annoucement.

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... -services/

Says could save upwards A$100 million annually plus A$80 million CapEx spend over five years being avoided.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Qantas16
Posts: 781
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:51 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:10 am

smi0006 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Qantas has announced today that 2000 ground handlers will be axed along with another 370 at JQ after the airline has decided to outsource those jobs through a third party provider

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 56j3v.html


Does it list the suppliers?

I know JQ has already outsourced theirs:
MEL- Menzies
SYD- Swissport
BNE - Oceania

Be interesting if QF goes with a single provider or mixes it up with multiple - benefits and risks to both strategies! They will be lean and mean coming out the back of this crisis - AJs style, when you have a bad year make it a shocker, burn the place down and rebuild from scratch! Hope VA can compete, fascinating to see the VA/QF cost comparison now compare with 15yrs again along with both carriers ability to be agile and nimble!


QF won't be going with a single supplier. Multiple GHAs have been given 'prefered supplier' for different airports whilst final details are sorted out.

And to add to the list, I believe ADL JQ went to Dnata.
 
qf2048
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:16 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:23 am

smi0006 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Qantas has announced today that 2000 ground handlers will be axed along with another 370 at JQ after the airline has decided to outsource those jobs through a third party provider

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 56j3v.html


Does it list the suppliers?

I know JQ has already outsourced theirs:
MEL- Menzies
SYD- Swissport
BNE - Oceania

Be interesting if QF goes with a single provider or mixes it up with multiple - benefits and risks to both strategies! They will be lean and mean coming out the back of this crisis - AJs style, when you have a bad year make it a shocker, burn the place down and rebuild from scratch! Hope VA can compete, fascinating to see the VA/QF cost comparison now compare with 15yrs again along with both carriers ability to be agile and nimble!


QFLink use a mix of handlers around NSW I know at least from what I've noticed,

BNK -Oceania
CFS - Swissport
DBO -NTL Aviation services
OAG- Precision Aviation services.

All of these have been more than helpful from what I've experienced and seem to love their jobs!
ZL,QF,KE,BA,AS,CX,FR,U2,W6,EI,IB,JL,AY,LH,AA,AC,FQ,DJ,JQ,LA,FJ,QS,NZ,NF,SB,PG,EK,AB,VA,MH,KA,VN
 
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Chipmunk1973
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:14 am

I honestly feel in a bit of a conundrum about QF’s decision about ground handling.

As a shareholder it makes a reasonable amount of sense in terms of finances. As a team leader it makes a quantifiable amount of sense with regards to KPI’s, and in turn, financial sense. But morally, I find it appalling that it’s been done at this time of year. Surely, they could have waited another two months and have this announced at the end of January, next year.

An organisation such as Qantas, being publicly owned, has a responsibility to deliver for shareholders as well as themselves. And I have no doubt as management views this as another measure to de-unionise the workforce; advantage to them. And whilst I’m no fan of unions generally, blame that on the BLF, I really do feel for these people.

When I was departing Alice Springs earlier this month, I was having a quick ciggie before checking in and had a interesting chat with one of the ground handlers out the front of the terminal. Working in 40C+ temperatures in summer and freezing conditions in winter is not pleasant. But these people need a reasonable stipend as well as conditions and benefits. I sincerely hope that the organisation’s that they will end up working for, see this and respect it, and offer appropriate packages. But my faith is not feeling good.

:twocents:
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B762, B763, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
AN, EK, MI, QF, SB.
 
qf2048
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:16 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:37 am

QF have started B717 services between BNE and NTL today. QF1777/1778. The mid morning flight which was a Q400.
ZL,QF,KE,BA,AS,CX,FR,U2,W6,EI,IB,JL,AY,LH,AA,AC,FQ,DJ,JQ,LA,FJ,QS,NZ,NF,SB,PG,EK,AB,VA,MH,KA,VN
 
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EK413
Topic Author
Posts: 5653
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - November 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:33 am

Please continue discussions in the December Thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1454731

Cheers

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
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