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Flflyer83
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WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:05 pm

WN to send out WARN and furlough notices to the first union group, IBT 142. 42 material specialists to be affected.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:21 pm

When posting factual information, post a link. It is not for the mods to fact check.
Winter is coming.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:20 am

There is an article titled "Southwest Airlines union tells employees WARN Act notices could be coming" in the Dallas Business Journal, and that article can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2020/10/31/southwest-airlines-warn-act-notice.html.
 
kiowa
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:26 am

This one says layoff notices ARE being sent out to Southwest employees.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... r-BB1aLuw3

It sounds like Southwest told them to take paycuts "or else". Now it's "or else".
 
gwrudolph
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:02 am

Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!
 
Tack
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:27 am

gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!


You’re right. Because 42 furloughs is all they need to get back on the road to profitability. Pretty sure those 42 feel it’s worth discussing. At the end of the day, WN is like every other legacy, they’re going to have to cut staff to cut costs. It sucks, but this isn’t a normal downturn.
 
catiii
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:39 am

gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!


Unless you’re one of the 42. Or if, you know, you pay attention to these things and know what this is the precursor to.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:06 am

catiii wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!


Unless you’re one of the 42. Or if, you know, you pay attention to these things and know what this is the precursor to.


This may be the tip of the iceberg. So it could be the start of something bigger.......... :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
reltney
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:14 am

It’s more than 42. Wife works there....worse than you think..... press NEVER gets the true story so believe what you want SW is a legacy and now get legacy problems. Nuff said.

Slam away armchair CEOs ..

Cheers..
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:26 am

gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments
 
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william
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:41 am

jfklganyc wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments


Well stated.
 
dbo861
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:59 am

jfklganyc wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments


Not to mention this is the first 42 furloughs in company history.
 
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DalDC9Bos
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:04 am

It may just be 42, but it is indicative of a some impt things.

- Southwest will follow through with involuntary cuts vs only using the threat of it as a negotiating tool. If it can happen to them (those 42) then the company will do it to you if necessary.
- All previous adjustments to their bottom line have not been enough.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:24 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
catiii wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!


Unless you’re one of the 42. Or if, you know, you pay attention to these things and know what this is the precursor to.


This may be the tip of the iceberg. So it could be the start of something bigger.......... :old:


This is absolutely the tip of the iceberg. This may be the first workgroup to tell management that they're not going to accept concessions, but it's also a message to every single collective bargaining group at the company. This is a crisis for the industry like no other which has come before, and management is serious about furloughs if they can't get concessions. They have an obligation to both employees and shareholders to keep the company from failing.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:33 am

Odd I thought I posted how I expected there to be more WARN notices at WN and the Industry in general.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
jbs2886
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:21 am

reltney wrote:
It’s more than 42. Wife works there....worse than you think..... press NEVER gets the true story so believe what you want SW is a legacy and now get legacy problems. Nuff said.

Slam away armchair CEOs ..

Cheers..


The press goes off of the WARN notice, seems a weird attack to make when it’s based on a notice from WN required by law.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:23 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Odd I thought I posted how I expected there to be more WARN notices at WN and the Industry in general.

Events are being canceled into March and a April now.
The cuts required to get down to demand level are going to brutal, out of necessity to survive.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:23 am

This is significant. Has southwest ever had a layoff before? Or is this the first time and these are the first people ?

I have to imagine more are coming down the pipeline. There may have been a timeline reason they had to get these in first and now.
Or they want others to see they are serious and negotiate with them. All these airlines are running on cash they are burning, not sustainable
 
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barney captain
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:09 am

dbo861 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments


Not to mention this is the first 42 furloughs in company history.


Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth. In the late 80's Herb (yes Herb), sent 40 pilots furlough notices. SWAPA interviened and negotiated temporary minimum pay reductions to keep everyone in property. The pilot's union is the one responsible for WN never having a furlough, but the company claims the trophy.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
dbo861
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:22 pm

barney captain wrote:
dbo861 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments


Not to mention this is the first 42 furloughs in company history.


Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth. In the late 80's Herb (yes Herb), sent 40 pilots furlough notices. SWAPA interviened and negotiated temporary minimum pay reductions to keep everyone in property. The pilot's union is the one responsible for WN never having a furlough, but the company claims the trophy.


But if the pilot union intervened and no one actually got furloughed where is the lie? I guess I should’ve said this will be the first furloughs, assuming it actually happens.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:10 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Odd I thought I posted how I expected there to be more WARN notices at WN and the Industry in general.


Southwest had remained the outlier.

If the furloughs occur, Southwest will join a long list of U.S. airlines forced to involuntarily reduce staff because of COVID. Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines, Spirit Airlines and United Airlines let go of well over 30,000 employees combined since Oct. 1. Employment protections under the federal coronavirus aid package, or CARES Act, expired the day before.

Delta Air Lines may furlough up to 1,900 pilots if cockpit crewmembers do not approve a recently reached agreement-in-principal that would achieve needed cost savings for the airline.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/southwest ... oughs/amp/

DL spent $3.1 Billion to get 18K people to go voluntarily - departure from the company, not short voluntary time off.

One has to wonder how long carriers can survive without more Federal grants (loans need to be repaid) with revenues at 30-60% of last year's levels, and how long this severely depressed demand level may last. This is the 'hole in the dike' for Southwest.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:21 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments


I am by no means suggesting it isn’t sad for 42. It is sad for anyone who loses their job. I would suggest that it is a small number in the big scheme of things and considering the really awful impact on travel demand. Consider that Disney, for example, has furloughed tens of thousands.
 
Noreastshuttle
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:51 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!


It’s only the beginning... this is just the smallest.
BOS-WASH Megalopolis
 
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ArcticSEA
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:23 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!

Sounds like you work in management.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:02 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments

Alsok as already noted, this is the crack in the dike. Sadly, the tradition was broken. There will be thousands more to follow.

I suspect this was done to get negotiations to the table and to be serious. WN won't survive if they do not lower costs. There are multiple ways to do this. I hope a compromise is achieved.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:18 pm

Looks like same pattern as the legacies. Airline threatens layoffs to get concessions but ultimately concessions aren’t enough. Layoffs come eventually. Then airline still files for bankruptcy. Air travel for 2021 looks more like air travel early summer 2020.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:50 pm

lightsaber wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments

Alsok as already noted, this is the crack in the dike. Sadly, the tradition was broken. There will be thousands more to follow.

I suspect this was done to get negotiations to the table and to be serious. WN won't survive if they do not lower costs. There are multiple ways to do this. I hope a compromise is achieved.

Lightsaber


But let’s be careful not to minimize the historical record. Regardless of what happens this go-round, the facts will remain that WN weathered 9/11 and the Great Recession within laying off anyone or screwing over the employees through bankruptcy. How many other carriers can say that?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:52 pm

Southwest has had some fine achievements but those are past achievements: now the execs need to manage for today's realities, and workers need to understand the need to brings costs into line with revenues. The gap is too big to fix by tinkering with work rules or once-a-week leisure routes. If workers don't want lower wages or significant cuts to minimum hours there will be reductions in employment. If WN doesn't want to spend $ Billions to put forward very generous voluntary departure plans (the way DL did), it can use furloughs (the way AA and UA did).
 
bob75013
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:22 pm

kiowa wrote:
This one says layoff notices ARE being sent out to Southwest employees.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... r-BB1aLuw3

It sounds like Southwest told them to take paycuts "or else". Now it's "or else".


Not necessarily

1) A WARN notice is a government requirement before any layoff can occur. It does NOT mean a layoff WILL occur. That's up to the union and whether or not it is willing to negotiate.

2) The notice went to material specialists because their union apparently stopped negotiating. .The notices did not go to employees respresented by other unions because those unions are apparently still negotiating.

retired HR guy here, so I do have some practical experience about how these things work.
 
777Mech
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
Odd I thought I posted how I expected there to be more WARN notices at WN and the Industry in general.


Southwest had remained the outlier.

If the furloughs occur, Southwest will join a long list of U.S. airlines forced to involuntarily reduce staff because of COVID. Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines, Spirit Airlines and United Airlines let go of well over 30,000 employees combined since Oct. 1. Employment protections under the federal coronavirus aid package, or CARES Act, expired the day before.

Delta Air Lines may furlough up to 1,900 pilots if cockpit crewmembers do not approve a recently reached agreement-in-principal that would achieve needed cost savings for the airline.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/southwest ... oughs/amp/


DL spent $3.1 Billion to get 18K people to go voluntarily - departure from the company, not short voluntary time off.

One has to wonder how long carriers can survive without more Federal grants (loans need to be repaid) with revenues at 30-60% of last year's levels, and how long this severely depressed demand level may last. This is the 'hole in the dike' for Southwest.


If WN does go ahead with the furloughs, (and simce the union told them to pound sand, they will) that leave DL as the sole airline that has not furloughed.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:01 am

ScottB wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
catiii wrote:

Unless you’re one of the 42. Or if, you know, you pay attention to these things and know what this is the precursor to.


This may be the tip of the iceberg. So it could be the start of something bigger.......... :old:


This is absolutely the tip of the iceberg. This may be the first workgroup to tell management that they're not going to accept concessions, but it's also a message to every single collective bargaining group at the company. This is a crisis for the industry like no other which has come before, and management is serious about furloughs if they can't get concessions. They have an obligation to both employees and shareholders to keep the company from failing.


Very much the tip, I believe that WARN notices are issued for each workgroup, this is the start of many. WARN are notices to the government, workers, investors, etc. that a reduction in force is being planned. With just 42 in this group, it implies that many more are coming because WARN notices usually apply to groups over 100. It hurts, but WN probably has to reduce its workforce 20 to 25% further than it has so far. If their passenger volume is at 60% of before, it means the workforce has to shrink a comparable amount or the company fails.

Yes anyone in a layoff is hurt badly. But whether it is 42 here or 5,000 at United is just scale of a very dismal situation.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:35 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
If their passenger volume is at 60% of before, it means the workforce has to shrink a comparable amount or the company fails.


Well, no. WN can be responsible and avoid taking on debt without limit without shrinking employment the same degree. WN had pretty good margins previously. Even among carriers doing furloughs they're recognizing that some workgroups are harder to replace than others and so going a bit lighter (on pilots and mechanics, as examples).

I've mentioned it elsewhere: passenger numbers aren't that important - it's revenue, which is a function not just of passenger numbers but also fares and distance flown.
 
strfyr51
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:32 am

I'm not sure why anybody is surprised. Herb isn't running Southwest anymore, The leaders they have now are expeditionary they're not playing it nearly as safe as herb did. What they're doing now? Is they're playing in the "Majors"
the Hub they opened at DEN is their first big shot at the other airlines and they won't be able to retreat. They've committed and they're on the hook for major league money. They have to see this through. And if Layoffs are how they get there? Well then remember, You wanted to be part of the club. And Here is where you pay your Dues,
 
jplatts
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:36 am

strfyr51 wrote:
I'm not sure why anybody is surprised. Herb isn't running Southwest anymore, The leaders they have now are expeditionary they're not playing it nearly as safe as herb did. What they're doing now? Is they're playing in the "Majors"
the Hub they opened at DEN is their first big shot at the other airlines and they won't be able to retreat. They've committed and they're on the hook for major league money. They have to see this through. And if Layoffs are how they get there? Well then remember, You wanted to be part of the club. And Here is where you pay your Dues,


WN has already made significant cuts at most of its largest stations, with WN having a much smaller presence at stations such as AUS, BUR, FLL, MCI, LAX, MSY, OAK, SMF, STL, SAT, SAN, and SJC than was the case prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

While WN did make some cuts at BNA, WN made fewer cuts at BNA than at the other large WN stations.

While WN did add a new routes such as DEN-BHM/CLT/LIT/ICT, WN is currently smaller at DEN than it was prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, with WN only currently doing around 170 daily departures out of DEN. DEN also now has more daily departures on WN than any other WN station.

BWI, MDW, DAL, LAS, and PHX are the only other WN stations that still have more than 100 daily departures on WN, and WN has already made significant cuts at BWI, MDW, DAL, LAS, and PHX during the COVID-19 pandemic.
 
Chemist
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:11 am

People appear to somehow be blaming WN.
This isn't a normal economic cycle.
Ignoring a unionized environment, a company can save costs by either lowering compensation or cutting staff. My own non-union company cut salaries, including for management, for a number of months at the beginning of the pandemic. Once business re-stabilized, they adjusted the salaries back but raises are suspended. They didn't lay anybody off, and the salary cuts were a management choice specifically to save jobs and spread the pain evenly.

For the airline industry, the downturn is going to be years. And because it's a union environment, management can't just cut compensation willy-nilly. So I have no doubt that WN would rather not furlough people. But they can't just decide to cut compensation to save everybody's jobs - they need to negotiate contracts. And if that isn't going to work, then furloughs are the result. In essence, the more senior union staff are deciding to sacrifice the more junior staff to protect their own salaries. They are not willing to bear an equal set of pay cuts, so the younger/less senior staff are jettisoned. That's the pro, and the con, of the union environment. If you are junior you are screwed. If you are senior you get to keep your job and full salary. Personally it seems pretty selfish to me, but I'm not in a union environment.

So in conclusion, I don't see why we treat WN as some "lousy legacy" when ultimately they need to be fiscally responsible. They've clearly tried everything possible to minimize the pain (departure packages, new routes, extra time off without pay/LOA/etc. And if the numbers still aren't going to add up, this is the result. And with the unions, it means furloughs unless negotiations are going to work for the union, which appears not to be the case.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:06 pm

In essence, the more senior union staff are deciding to sacrifice the more junior staff to protect their own salaries. They are not willing to bear an equal set of pay cuts, so the younger/less senior staff are jettisoned. That's the pro, and the con, of the union environment. If you are junior you are screwed. If you are senior you get to keep your job and full salary. Personally it seems pretty selfish to me, but I'm not in a union environment.


Only slightly off topic, this is what has destroyed unions. Time after time, them that got got more, them that haven't got get nothing. Unions get captured by the highly paid people at the top of the scale. So why would those poor suckers in the bottom third vote for unions. By the way, in my high school and college days I was a proud member of one of the big unions with high pay. I'm pro union still, and think that until unions are worrying about the bottom third they will not recover.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:42 pm

I work for an airline (having a job potentially been affected by cuts) that has thinned the entire staff by a third., I feel for our airline brethren at WN and others in same boat. It's not an easy process to experience from the inside and it isn't over by a long shot for anyone that remains. Thankfully frontline airline people support each other naturally and this eases the burden.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:47 pm

Airline employees have been incredibly blessed. Millions of Americans, many with high paying jobs, working in industries killed by COVID lost their jobs in late winter/early spring. My sister-in-law abruptly lost her job of 17 years in the touring/entertainment industry, devastating her family as she was the one providing health insurance. The PPP program couldn't protect these people, because requirements made loan forgiveness impossible. Meanwhile, these same requirements didn't exist for the airline industry.

WN employees need to recognize that they've been blessed, and that their company is making a valiant effort to help them out.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
In essence, the more senior union staff are deciding to sacrifice the more junior staff to protect their own salaries. They are not willing to bear an equal set of pay cuts, so the younger/less senior staff are jettisoned. That's the pro, and the con, of the union environment. If you are junior you are screwed. If you are senior you get to keep your job and full salary. Personally it seems pretty selfish to me, but I'm not in a union environment.


Only slightly off topic, this is what has destroyed unions. Time after time, them that got got more, them that haven't got get nothing. Unions get captured by the highly paid people at the top of the scale. So why would those poor suckers in the bottom third vote for unions. By the way, in my high school and college days I was a proud member of one of the big unions with high pay. I'm pro union still, and think that until unions are worrying about the bottom third they will not recover.


I feel the same way as you. As devastating as RTW has been, senior union members agreeing to contracts that yielded generous comp packages in exchange for allowing the company to hire new employees at minimum wage/ or even outsource these positions, has done the most damage...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:22 am

bob75013 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
This one says layoff notices ARE being sent out to Southwest employees.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... r-BB1aLuw3

It sounds like Southwest told them to take paycuts "or else". Now it's "or else".


Not necessarily

1) A WARN notice is a government requirement before any layoff can occur. It does NOT mean a layoff WILL occur. That's up to the union and whether or not it is willing to negotiate.

2) The notice went to material specialists because their union apparently stopped negotiating. .The notices did not go to employees respresented by other unions because those unions are apparently still negotiating.

retired HR guy here, so I do have some practical experience about how these things work.

Well, that shows the "full pay till last day" strategy is not the best. That group refused to negotiate any further, the hammer is down.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:53 am

"The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is 42."
You are here.
 
kiowa
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:19 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
This one says layoff notices ARE being sent out to Southwest employees.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... r-BB1aLuw3

It sounds like Southwest told them to take paycuts "or else". Now it's "or else".


Not necessarily

1) A WARN notice is a government requirement before any layoff can occur. It does NOT mean a layoff WILL occur. That's up to the union and whether or not it is willing to negotiate.

2) The notice went to material specialists because their union apparently stopped negotiating. .The notices did not go to employees respresented by other unions because those unions are apparently still negotiating.

retired HR guy here, so I do have some practical experience about how these things work.

Well, that shows the "full pay till last day" strategy is not the best. That group refused to negotiate any further, the hammer is down.


The WARN notice is a strategy as well and a tool available to management.
 
trueblew
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:08 pm

reltney wrote:
SW is a legacy and now get legacy problems. Nuff said.

Slam away armchair CEOs ..

Cheers..


Southwest is not a legacy carrier.
 
Boof02671
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:51 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Airline employees have been incredibly blessed. Millions of Americans, many with high paying jobs, working in industries killed by COVID lost their jobs in late winter/early spring. My sister-in-law abruptly lost her job of 17 years in the touring/entertainment industry, devastating her family as she was the one providing health insurance. The PPP program couldn't protect these people, because requirements made loan forgiveness impossible. Meanwhile, these same requirements didn't exist for the airline industry.

WN employees need to recognize that they've been blessed, and that their company is making a valiant effort to help them out.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
In essence, the more senior union staff are deciding to sacrifice the more junior staff to protect their own salaries. They are not willing to bear an equal set of pay cuts, so the younger/less senior staff are jettisoned. That's the pro, and the con, of the union environment. If you are junior you are screwed. If you are senior you get to keep your job and full salary. Personally it seems pretty selfish to me, but I'm not in a union environment.


Only slightly off topic, this is what has destroyed unions. Time after time, them that got got more, them that haven't got get nothing. Unions get captured by the highly paid people at the top of the scale. So why would those poor suckers in the bottom third vote for unions. By the way, in my high school and college days I was a proud member of one of the big unions with high pay. I'm pro union still, and think that until unions are worrying about the bottom third they will not recover.


I feel the same way as you. As devastating as RTW has been, senior union members agreeing to contracts that yielded generous comp packages in exchange for allowing the company to hire new employees at minimum wage/ or even outsource these positions, has done the most damage...

Blessed?

Took massive payouts, benefits and my pension was terminated.
 
ethernal
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:15 pm

trueblew wrote:
reltney wrote:
SW is a legacy and now get legacy problems. Nuff said.

Slam away armchair CEOs ..

Cheers..


Southwest is not a legacy carrier.


Semantics. They are a large, mature carrier with a business model under disruption from both structural (the rise of the ULCC) and macro (COVID). You can call them whatever you like, but they are under pressure and have many of the same challenges as the legacies - even if they do have a lower cost curve and more simple operations model.
 
xdlx
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:45 pm

Would WN benefit from considering a E175 as a smaller gauge fo their route structure?
 
gdavis003
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:35 pm

xdlx wrote:
Would WN benefit from considering a E175 as a smaller gauge fo their route structure?


I couldn’t see it happening, but it would definitely allow them to expand into some smaller markets with adequate capacity. But, in this era, I don’t see that happening.
 
trueblew
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:36 pm

xdlx wrote:
Would WN benefit from considering a E175 as a smaller gauge fo their route structure?


I don't believe so. E175 have high CASM, and WN already successfully serve small markets with 73G. If they were to add another fleet type it'd likely be a low-CASM product like the A220.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:31 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
This one says layoff notices ARE being sent out to Southwest employees.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... r-BB1aLuw3

It sounds like Southwest told them to take paycuts "or else". Now it's "or else".


Not necessarily

1) A WARN notice is a government requirement before any layoff can occur. It does NOT mean a layoff WILL occur. That's up to the union and whether or not it is willing to negotiate.

2) The notice went to material specialists because their union apparently stopped negotiating. .The notices did not go to employees respresented by other unions because those unions are apparently still negotiating.

retired HR guy here, so I do have some practical experience about how these things work.

Well, that shows the "full pay till last day" strategy is not the best. That group refused to negotiate any further, the hammer is down.


No it isn't. The warn notice puts the fire to the union's feet

Instead of vague threats about a layoff some time in the future, it is now a very specific threat about layoffs happening on a specific date. The clock is ticking and now everyone knows when the bell will ring.

Warn notices warn about layoffs 60+ days out. Everybody could come up with a negotiated settlement on day 59 and there would be no layoff.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1867
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:20 am

Boof02671 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Airline employees have been incredibly blessed. Millions of Americans, many with high paying jobs, working in industries killed by COVID lost their jobs in late winter/early spring. My sister-in-law abruptly lost her job of 17 years in the touring/entertainment industry, devastating her family as she was the one providing health insurance. The PPP program couldn't protect these people, because requirements made loan forgiveness impossible. Meanwhile, these same requirements didn't exist for the airline industry.

WN employees need to recognize that they've been blessed, and that their company is making a valiant effort to help them out.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Only slightly off topic, this is what has destroyed unions. Time after time, them that got got more, them that haven't got get nothing. Unions get captured by the highly paid people at the top of the scale. So why would those poor suckers in the bottom third vote for unions. By the way, in my high school and college days I was a proud member of one of the big unions with high pay. I'm pro union still, and think that until unions are worrying about the bottom third they will not recover.


I feel the same way as you. As devastating as RTW has been, senior union members agreeing to contracts that yielded generous comp packages in exchange for allowing the company to hire new employees at minimum wage/ or even outsource these positions, has done the most damage...

Blessed?

Took massive payouts, benefits and my pension was terminated.

And many of us took 100% pay and benefits cuts, and had no pension to start with. Airline employees are far from being the worst treated employees in the US, and rode the COVID-19 crisis pretty much unscathed (until September 30th); again, unlike many others in the aerospace industry, or the travel/hospitality industry.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1867
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:21 am

kiowa wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

Not necessarily

1) A WARN notice is a government requirement before any layoff can occur. It does NOT mean a layoff WILL occur. That's up to the union and whether or not it is willing to negotiate.

2) The notice went to material specialists because their union apparently stopped negotiating. .The notices did not go to employees respresented by other unions because those unions are apparently still negotiating.

retired HR guy here, so I do have some practical experience about how these things work.

Well, that shows the "full pay till last day" strategy is not the best. That group refused to negotiate any further, the hammer is down.


The WARN notice is a strategy as well and a tool available to management.

That can go all to the way to "here's the door".

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