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zuckie13
Posts: 398
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:21 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
I'm glad everyone's alright. Bravo zulu to the Alaska crew. Things like this really show you how important it is to monitor 121.5, even if you don't think anything will ever happen. While I'm not trying to question the PC-12 crew, I'm a little surprised that they decided to try to fly so far over water, considering that the aircraft had experienced maintenance issues and a turnback so recently. I'm sure that they had their reasons, though, and the reliability of the PT-6 probably played into that. I think this crew got very lucky and at the same time insanely unlucky. Again, great job to everyone involved in the rescue, from the Alaska crew to the Coast Guard to the air traffic controllers. I think there's definitely an Archie League award in their future.


I would assume the went to maintenance after whatever caused the turn-back. If anything, getting whatever it was checked/fixed probably gave them more confidence they were in good shape.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:35 am

Great job, AS crew! No one would ever want to be in their situation and I’m sure they’re thankful.
 
flyfresno
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:45 am

Anyone remember the movie "Mercy Mission" with Robert Loggia and Scott Bakula that was based on the true story of two single engine crop dusters being ferried to Australia (and the ensuing drama, I wont give any spoilers)? This thread reminds me of the plot...
 
CD1013
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Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:50 am

F9Animal wrote:
CD1013 wrote:
CaptPat wrote:
Still no confirmation of recovery of the pilots. Read the article carefully , it does not say pilots safely recovered.
I was just north of them and can confirm Alaska did a fantastic job of command and control of the situation. Fortunately they have SAT phone. American descended to FL200 to "take a look" but overcast skies and rough seas made that futile.
It was very difficult listening to this transpire . Prayers for the pilots and the rescuers.
If someone gets confirmation of rescue please post



I have been in communication with Oakland and the two pilots are safely onboard a cargo ship heading for Hawaii now. Thank you for the kudos. I hope to never have to answer a mayday call again, but will always be listening on 121.5.


Wow!! Wonderful job!! Did you attempt to go lower to see if you could spot them? I read the ceiling was low and bad seas. I couldn't imagine how scary that was to hear that. Hopefully you will be able to meet the crew. You deserve kudos!


We were heading away from them and unable to turn back and go lower, another airplane did though. I was able to talk to the pilot today.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:42 am

And he said?.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:41 am

flyfresno wrote:
Anyone remember the movie "Mercy Mission" with Robert Loggia and Scott Bakula that was based on the true story of two single engine crop dusters being ferried to Australia (and the ensuing drama, I wont give any spoilers)? This thread reminds me of the plot...

I thought it was a pretty good movie... here is a screen shot of them leaving SFO....

Image
FLYi
 
armadillomaster
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:58 am

Excellent work and excellent outcome. So pleased all are safe. But this is a great thread, probably one of the best I've read on here. Love the stories and the fact that concerned pilots have come on to check on the welfare of the other pilots.
 
DIJKKIJK
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Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:45 am

RobertS975 wrote:
75driver wrote:
I’m glad they are safe but I’m confused. Since when is a PC-12 capable of flying safely over 2000NM from California to Hawaii? That sounds beyond the aircrafts safe flying range. Has Pilatus expanded capability recently? I’m not up to date but that distance seems unrealistic.



It was a ferry flight, a delivery flight. Special temporary fuel tanks, not an ordinary flight in any way.


Isn't it better, even cheaper, to transport such tiny planes by cargo ship instead of flying them over such long distances?

Nice to know that both pilots are safe, but the loss of a brand new plane is definitely sad.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
Aero94
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Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:03 am

CD1013 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
CD1013 wrote:


I have been in communication with Oakland and the two pilots are safely onboard a cargo ship heading for Hawaii now. Thank you for the kudos. I hope to never have to answer a mayday call again, but will always be listening on 121.5.


Wow!! Wonderful job!! Did you attempt to go lower to see if you could spot them? I read the ceiling was low and bad seas. I couldn't imagine how scary that was to hear that. Hopefully you will be able to meet the crew. You deserve kudos!


We were heading away from them and unable to turn back and go lower, another airplane did though. I was able to talk to the pilot today.


CD1013, thanks for all of your efforts, great work in a difficult situation. Sent a PM.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:25 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
75driver wrote:
I’m glad they are safe but I’m confused. Since when is a PC-12 capable of flying safely over 2000NM from California to Hawaii? That sounds beyond the aircrafts safe flying range. Has Pilatus expanded capability recently? I’m not up to date but that distance seems unrealistic.



It was a ferry flight, a delivery flight. Special temporary fuel tanks, not an ordinary flight in any way.


Isn't it better, even cheaper, to transport such tiny planes by cargo ship instead of flying them over such long distances?

Nice to know that both pilots are safe, but the loss of a brand new plane is definitely sad.


If it were, most planes would be sent by ship. Pilatus ferries them to Colorado from the factory in Switzerland, almost weekly.
 
rfields5421
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Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:50 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
Isn't it better, even cheaper, to transport such tiny planes by cargo ship instead of flying them over such long distances?


Is there a ship going on that route within the proper timeline?

Can the plane be disassembled to a point that it will fit in standard cargo containers, or must it be carried as deck cargo?

Is there an approved facility to recertify the aircraft as safe for flight at the destination?

EDIT - Flightaware list this aircraft making a round trip on this route on Nov 1 & Nov 2 https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N400PW.

These planes can be flown around the world on routes with all legs less than 1,500 nm, the 2,000+ nm range to Hilo is a stretch, but safely doable, done several times each year.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:41 pm

Is 123.45 a frequency with a special role? It is a catchy number.
 
joeblow10
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:54 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Is 123.45 a frequency with a special role? It is a catchy number.


Called “the fingers” since its 1,2,3,4,5

Most commonly used for air to air communication for formation flight and it’s supposed to be used in remote areas where you might not pick up ATC.... but it’s kind of turned into a general chat channel for pilots. 121.5 is “strictly” for emergency communication - 123.45 can be more general Comms about weather, the super bowl score, etc. ;)
 
dr1980
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:06 pm

Wow, good to hear this turned out ok, and really great to read (firsthand from CD1013) of the efforts of fellow pilots to help bring this to a successful resolution. I’m not a pilot but I never cease to be amazed by the camaraderie and close community that pilots share.
Dave/CYHZ
 
Moonship
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:32 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Is 123.45 a frequency with a special role? It is a catchy number.
On oceanic flights we frequently find a "pathfinder" for weather deviations and turbulence reports. "Is anybody on L453 north of BOREX with a ride report?" Most airlines have a policy to guard 121.5 and 123.45 anytime your outside of VHF ATC. As stated one for emergencies and the other as an air to air regular stuff channel.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
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RobK
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:24 pm

Moonship wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Is 123.45 a frequency with a special role? It is a catchy number.
On oceanic flights we frequently find a "pathfinder" for weather deviations and turbulence reports. "Is anybody on L453 north of BOREX with a ride report?" Most airlines have a policy to guard 121.5 and 123.45 anytime your outside of VHF ATC. As stated one for emergencies and the other as an air to air regular stuff channel.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


I'm sure the NYC ARINC operators would love you all to do that air-to-air instead of constantly pestering them over the HF for ride reports. When there's TS activity on the L450 routes (which is about 90% of the year) 50% of the comms are B6 pilots asking for ride reports, 25% deviation requests and 25% ARPs for those voice reporting.
 
Max Q
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Glad they survived and a great effort by all those who assisted

These SE turboprops are impressive with strong capabilities performance and comfort

Still one engine though and if that fails in a bad place you may not survive


I’d still prefer the old Baron I flew in another life flying night freight, it may have been ancient and pretty beat up but I could lose an engine and the other one would take me to an airport


Or the scene of the crash as at Las Vegas the other day and hundreds of other times in Part 23 piston or turboprop twins. See recent KA 200 accidents.




Point taken, especially if an engine failure occurs immediately after takeoff, in those circumstances if you don’t react immediately and correctly an accident may still result with the marginal se climb performance on piston twins


However, that second engine gives you a chance, if you do handle the failure competently, especially at later stages in the flight, to land the aircraft at an airport instead of having literally no choice but to put it down on whatever surface is beneath you, no matter how hostile.


In my opinion the single engine aircraft still has a much higher risk than a twin with a competent pilot
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Moonship
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:03 pm

RobK wrote:
Moonship wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Is 123.45 a frequency with a special role? It is a catchy number.
On oceanic flights we frequently find a "pathfinder" for weather deviations and turbulence reports. "Is anybody on L453 north of BOREX with a ride report?" Most airlines have a policy to guard 121.5 and 123.45 anytime your outside of VHF ATC. As stated one for emergencies and the other as an air to air regular stuff channel.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


I'm sure the NYC ARINC operators would love you all to do that air-to-air instead of constantly pestering them over the HF for ride reports. When there's TS activity on the L450 routes (which is about 90% of the year) 50% of the comms are B6 pilots asking for ride reports, 25% deviation requests and 25% ARPs for those voice reporting.
We have the HF off except position reports and answering SELCAL's so didn't realize that was happening so much. For deviations, as long as you've got someone in front of you to watch on TCAS it's pretty easy to watch how far off track you need. The other nice thing about the WATRS is bidirectional routing on the airways so you can get a report from someone going the opposite way when they're passing. I feel like we're pretty good at using 123.45 for that stuff and on the quieter nights solving the industy/world's problems too.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
Western727
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Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:09 pm

CD1013 wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
CD1013 wrote:


Thank you very much. I am thankful we were in the right place at the right time, but I hope to never hear another mayday call. I will always have 121.5 tuned and turned up though.


Super relieved to hear they are on the boat. I appreciate you sharing that information, as it unloads a significant burden from my psyche.

I have only heard one MAYDAY before... and it was only a half of one before the poor guy smacked into a mountain. Ugh. This aviation stuff can be sobering.


I hope to never hear another mayday again. I have been flying a long time with 3 airlines and this was my first. Hope you get better sleep tonight. Thankful Alaska has been wonderful to us and understanding of what we went through. I look forward to talking to the pilot when he reaches Honolulu. He has been given my phone number.


Thank you as well for your work! As a GA pilot I can only imagine what that must've felt like. Have you connected by phone with the said pilot yet? Not necessarily asking for details, just wondering if you have connected.
Jack @ AUS
 
Boeingphan
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:41 pm

I shot a DM to vic at vasa to see if he can dig up audio and do a youtube on this. Great work on all fronts
 
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RobK
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:52 pm

You won't find any public recording of 8843 KHz and neither will he.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:04 pm

Max Q wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Glad they survived and a great effort by all those who assisted

These SE turboprops are impressive with strong capabilities performance and comfort

Still one engine though and if that fails in a bad place you may not survive


I’d still prefer the old Baron I flew in another life flying night freight, it may have been ancient and pretty beat up but I could lose an engine and the other one would take me to an airport


Or the scene of the crash as at Las Vegas the other day and hundreds of other times in Part 23 piston or turboprop twins. See recent KA 200 accidents.


Point taken, especially if an engine failure occurs immediately after takeoff, in those circumstances if you don’t react immediately and correctly an accident may still result with the marginal se climb performance on piston twins


However, that second engine gives you a chance, if you do handle the failure competently, especially at later stages in the flight, to land the aircraft at an airport instead of having literally no choice but to put it down on whatever surface is beneath you, no matter how hostile.


In my opinion the single engine aircraft still has a much higher risk than a twin with a competent pilot


I'll never understand why the FAA allows certification of light twins with such shamefully poor single engine performance. Loss of control is way too common when one engine fails and yet the FAA does nothing about it. It should have the same performance requirement of any transport category aircraft.
 
Max Q
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:05 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Max Q wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Or the scene of the crash as at Las Vegas the other day and hundreds of other times in Part 23 piston or turboprop twins. See recent KA 200 accidents.


Point taken, especially if an engine failure occurs immediately after takeoff, in those circumstances if you don’t react immediately and correctly an accident may still result with the marginal se climb performance on piston twins


However, that second engine gives you a chance, if you do handle the failure competently, especially at later stages in the flight, to land the aircraft at an airport instead of having literally no choice but to put it down on whatever surface is beneath you, no matter how hostile.


In my opinion the single engine aircraft still has a much higher risk than a twin with a competent pilot


I'll never understand why the FAA allows certification of light twins with such shamefully poor single engine performance. Loss of control is way too common when one engine fails and yet the FAA does nothing about it. It should have the same performance requirement of any transport category aircraft.



While I agree light twin SE performance is borderline if they had to be certified to the same standard as transport aircraft it would make them so expensive and / or weight limited they would no longer be affordable or practical
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
FlyingViking
Posts: 141
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Max Q wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Or the scene of the crash as at Las Vegas the other day and hundreds of other times in Part 23 piston or turboprop twins. See recent KA 200 accidents.


Point taken, especially if an engine failure occurs immediately after takeoff, in those circumstances if you don’t react immediately and correctly an accident may still result with the marginal se climb performance on piston twins


However, that second engine gives you a chance, if you do handle the failure competently, especially at later stages in the flight, to land the aircraft at an airport instead of having literally no choice but to put it down on whatever surface is beneath you, no matter how hostile.


In my opinion the single engine aircraft still has a much higher risk than a twin with a competent pilot


I'll never understand why the FAA allows certification of light twins with such shamefully poor single engine performance. Loss of control is way too common when one engine fails and yet the FAA does nothing about it. It should have the same performance requirement of any transport category aircraft.


Would be nice but impossible expensive for most probably. I always figured that until the gear was up I was flying an 8 cylinder single. So planed on landing straight ahead if I lost an engine. Once gear was up the twin gave me options that a single couldn't do.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:02 am

FlyingViking wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Max Q wrote:

Point taken, especially if an engine failure occurs immediately after takeoff, in those circumstances if you don’t react immediately and correctly an accident may still result with the marginal se climb performance on piston twins


However, that second engine gives you a chance, if you do handle the failure competently, especially at later stages in the flight, to land the aircraft at an airport instead of having literally no choice but to put it down on whatever surface is beneath you, no matter how hostile.


In my opinion the single engine aircraft still has a much higher risk than a twin with a competent pilot


I'll never understand why the FAA allows certification of light twins with such shamefully poor single engine performance. Loss of control is way too common when one engine fails and yet the FAA does nothing about it. It should have the same performance requirement of any transport category aircraft.


Would be nice but impossible expensive for most probably. I always figured that until the gear was up I was flying an 8 cylinder single. So planed on landing straight ahead if I lost an engine. Once gear was up the twin gave me options that a single couldn't do.


I've resisted getting my multiengine add-on because of this. And most flight schools seem to only have clapped out relics. They'll have a nice fleet of glass 172's but an ancient Duchess or Seminole for multi-engine training. Are there any twin engine trainers that have above average performance? I'd gladly pay more for it.
 
highflier92660
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:06 am

PC-12s are ferried across oceans on a regular basis. It's a high-performance turboprop, the reverse-flow PT6 an engine with nearly six-decades of impeccably reliable operation. Having said that, a sterling reliability record becomes moot in the event of a catastrophic engine failure. There ain't no rate-of-climb in an engine-out glider flying at (L/D) Max. Just ask these passengers aboard an Hawaii inter-island PT6 powered Cessna Grand Caravan a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANR580jNSmA
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:10 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I'll never understand why the FAA allows certification of light twins with such shamefully poor single engine performance. Loss of control is way too common when one engine fails and yet the FAA does nothing about it. It should have the same performance requirement of any transport category aircraft.


Would be nice but impossible expensive for most probably. I always figured that until the gear was up I was flying an 8 cylinder single. So planed on landing straight ahead if I lost an engine. Once gear was up the twin gave me options that a single couldn't do.


I've resisted getting my multiengine add-on because of this. And most flight schools seem to only have clapped out relics. They'll have a nice fleet of glass 172's but an ancient Duchess or Seminole for multi-engine training. Are there any twin engine trainers that have above average performance? I'd gladly pay more for it.



Quite frankly, no, there aren't. Until you're up to something like a newer Baron, or bigger, there simply isn't much single engine performance in a light twin. Other than the basic training twins, there simply aren't any being built. Single engine turboprops killed off things like a 340/402/PA31 sized airplane, where you do have actual single engine performance.
From my cold, dead hands
 
UA735WL
Posts: 301
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:49 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I'll never understand why the FAA allows certification of light twins with such shamefully poor single engine performance. Loss of control is way too common when one engine fails and yet the FAA does nothing about it. It should have the same performance requirement of any transport category aircraft.


Would be nice but impossible expensive for most probably. I always figured that until the gear was up I was flying an 8 cylinder single. So planed on landing straight ahead if I lost an engine. Once gear was up the twin gave me options that a single couldn't do.


I've resisted getting my multiengine add-on because of this. And most flight schools seem to only have clapped out relics. They'll have a nice fleet of glass 172's but an ancient Duchess or Seminole for multi-engine training. Are there any twin engine trainers that have above average performance? I'd gladly pay more for it.



For what it's worth, I instruct at a fairly well known flight school located at an airport with a field elevation of 5000 feet. We've used the DA42 (turbocharged diesel engined twin) for flight training for a few years now, with 4 new examples purchased this past spring. They'll climb at 100-200 feet per minute single engine at 8000+ density altitudes depending on weight. It isn't much but it's better than a negative climb rate. Normally aspirated twins peter out fairly quickly in terms of single engine absolute ceiling. It's true that the light twin market is pretty dry, though.

Honestly I'm glad to see the heavier avgas burning twins displaced by things like TBMs and PC12s- burning 30-40 gph of avgas is a huge environmental nightmare (there's actually a direct correlation between blood lead levels in children and proximity of their home from an airport- really sobering. Jet-A is pretty benign by comparison, at least from human health perspective).


Back on topic, it's amazing to hear the professionalism and calm action that led to this event ending in the safe rescue of the crew. Truly awe-inspiring.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
FlyingViking
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:55 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:

Would be nice but impossible expensive for most probably. I always figured that until the gear was up I was flying an 8 cylinder single. So planed on landing straight ahead if I lost an engine. Once gear was up the twin gave me options that a single couldn't do.


I've resisted getting my multiengine add-on because of this. And most flight schools seem to only have clapped out relics. They'll have a nice fleet of glass 172's but an ancient Duchess or Seminole for multi-engine training. Are there any twin engine trainers that have above average performance? I'd gladly pay more for it.



Quite frankly, no, there aren't. Until you're up to something like a newer Baron, or bigger, there simply isn't much single engine performance in a light twin. Other than the basic training twins, there simply aren't any being built. Single engine turboprops killed off things like a 340/402/PA31 sized airplane, where you do have actual single engine performance.


I had an instructor that had 2000 hours in the Partenavia P68 Victor. He said it would climb on one engine. They are a rare type in the US though.
 
Dreamflight767
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:16 am

What's unfortunate is that the airplane will not be recovered to help identify the cause of the failure.

Wasn't there a PC-12 that crashed not too long ago in TX? Also an engine failure?
 
Aero94
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:50 pm

 
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ssteve
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:12 pm

How long could that C-130 really loiter at that range from Oahu?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:57 pm

A few hours, at least.
 
jellyhead
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Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:24 pm

CD1013 wrote:
N1011 wrote:
Excellent news they are all safe!


We were able to give atc via CPDLC and then a direct SATCOM call their exact location, altitude, airspeed and heading. We did this repeatedly and then we plotted it to verify where they were and where they were heading. We gave ATC the color of the airplane, the fact that they had a life raft and its color. We gave reports up to 1,800 feet. When we didn't hear anything else and we were heading Eastbound, we passed along their last known position to planes heading westbound. Everyone in the vicinity was looking for them and then passing along their ELT signal.

*They have not been rescued yet...Coast Guard is on the way though.


Respect CD1013, excellent work. Hope those two will make it and have a chance to buy you a beer or two one day, you certainly deserve it.
 
seat1a
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: N400PW Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:00 pm

CD1013 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
CD1013 wrote:


I have been in communication with Oakland and the two pilots are safely onboard a cargo ship heading for Hawaii now. Thank you for the kudos. I hope to never have to answer a mayday call again, but will always be listening on 121.5.


Wow!! Wonderful job!! Did you attempt to go lower to see if you could spot them? I read the ceiling was low and bad seas. I couldn't imagine how scary that was to hear that. Hopefully you will be able to meet the crew. You deserve kudos!


We were heading away from them and unable to turn back and go lower, another airplane did though. I was able to talk to the pilot today.


Much respect to you. I am fascinated by this story. Did you make an announcement to passengers on your aircraft about what was going on? Would other pilots looking do the same? Just curious what is said, if anything, especially if a flight crew decides to descend and take a closer look?
 
mm320cap
Topic Author
Posts: 325
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:46 pm

Aero94 wrote:


THANKS for posting this! Incredible to see. Rounding out the story which has kept me up at night since hearing the MAYDAY call.
 
mm320cap
Topic Author
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:47 pm

RobK wrote:
You won't find any public recording of 8843 KHz and neither will he.


All the communications were on 121.5 and 123.45.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8973
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Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:16 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I'll never understand why the FAA allows certification of light twins with such shamefully poor single engine performance. Loss of control is way too common when one engine fails and yet the FAA does nothing about it. It should have the same performance requirement of any transport category aircraft.


Would be nice but impossible expensive for most probably. I always figured that until the gear was up I was flying an 8 cylinder single. So planed on landing straight ahead if I lost an engine. Once gear was up the twin gave me options that a single couldn't do.


I've resisted getting my multiengine add-on because of this. And most flight schools seem to only have clapped out relics. They'll have a nice fleet of glass 172's but an ancient Duchess or Seminole for multi-engine training. Are there any twin engine trainers that have above average performance? I'd gladly pay more for it.



I wouldn’t be put off by training in older twins, if you’re not aiming towards professional flying it won’t matter that much but if you are it’s extremely important to get that multi rating and start accumulating as much twin time as you can


It’s a significant step up the qualification ladder requiring good reactions, co-ordination, handling skills and the ability to manage a more complex aircraft, basically two of everything


The airlines and other aviation employers value this highly, in fact you won’t even be looked at without substantial multi engine time


Besides that it’s fun and quite satisfying learning to fly a twin, dealing competently with practice engine failures, gaining a valuable rating and even if you’re not going to fly professionally it will make you a better qualified, more rounded pilot



As far as only having minimal single engine performance on these twin trainers that’s not really an issue, your instructor is not going to actually shut down an engine, just reduce power to idle, if needed they can immediately restore it



Furthermore this minimal SE performance demands the highest level of precision in aircraft handling to achieve probably 200 fpm but that’s a good thing for your multi engine skill building
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
mileduets
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:03 am

Is there any information out about which model it was (NG or NGX)?
It would be a bad sign if the new version with its new engine would have an engine failure based accident this early in its production.
 
airnorth
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:05 pm

mileduets wrote:
Is there any information out about which model it was (NG or NGX)?
It would be a bad sign if the new version with its new engine would have an engine failure based accident this early in its production.


Looks like a brand new NGX model.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/244731
 
FlyingViking
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:16 am

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:31 pm

airnorth wrote:
mileduets wrote:
Is there any information out about which model it was (NG or NGX)?
It would be a bad sign if the new version with its new engine would have an engine failure based accident this early in its production.


Looks like a brand new NGX model.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/244731


Third party ferry tank installed, 1100 miles out, possible failure of the fuel transfer? Just initial speculation of course?

In reference to twin vs single (PC-12 vs King Air), if your out of fuel or can't get fuel to the header tanks(S) you loose thrust, doesn't matter how many otherwise relieable PT6A's you have on the plane.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:09 pm

FlyingViking wrote:
airnorth wrote:
mileduets wrote:
Is there any information out about which model it was (NG or NGX)?
It would be a bad sign if the new version with its new engine would have an engine failure based accident this early in its production.


Looks like a brand new NGX model.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/244731


Third party ferry tank installed, 1100 miles out, possible failure of the fuel transfer? Just initial speculation of course?

In reference to twin vs single (PC-12 vs King Air), if your out of fuel or can't get fuel to the header tanks(S) you loose thrust, doesn't matter how many otherwise relieable PT6A's you have on the plane.


I wonder if all ferry tanks wouldn't be considered "third party".
Southeast Of Disorder
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:54 pm

Amazing story and excellent work to the Alaska crew and all others involved. One question I have....in a situation like this where you are offering assistance in a regularly scheduled commercial flight and you decide to deviate from your flight plan to offer any assistance, even if it just means descend to a lower altitude to have a look. Is this something that as a captain you can decide on yourself and just do, or would company need to be notified first? Either way I can only imagine someone at company would inquire the reasoning for a descent to FL200 in middle of the Pacific.
 
11C
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:23 am

trnswrld wrote:
Amazing story and excellent work to the Alaska crew and all others involved. One question I have....in a situation like this where you are offering assistance in a regularly scheduled commercial flight and you decide to deviate from your flight plan to offer any assistance, even if it just means descend to a lower altitude to have a look. Is this something that as a captain you can decide on yourself and just do, or would company need to be notified first? Either way I can only imagine someone at company would inquire the reasoning for a descent to FL200 in middle of the Pacific.

I can't speak to the decisions made in this case, but I can speak to what we do when we have a reason to deviate from a clearance, FAR, or SOP. Declare an emergency. Guys floating in the water qualify as an emergency. It covers pretty much anything, and you just have to have a good reason to use the declaration. That being said, descending on an ETOPS flight near the ETP would be alarming, at best, depending on your fuel status.
 
AngelsDecay
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:19 pm

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:26 am

Anyone here remembering the famous Gordon Vette&Jay Prochnow Pacific Ocean Incident in the late 70's?
Quite some similarities...
And what an amazing job did by all this time, specially by the Alaska crew...hats off to ll involved...cheers from Portugal.
"Well be thy one,
and wisdom too.
And grew, and joyed in my growth.
From a word to a word, I was lead to a Wyrd.
From a deed, to another deed."
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7778
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:35 am

AngelsDecay wrote:
Anyone here remembering the famous Gordon Vette&Jay Prochnow Pacific Ocean Incident in the late 70's?
Quite some similarities...
And what an amazing job did by all this time, specially by the Alaska crew...hats off to ll involved...cheers from Portugal.


Vette used his celnav skills to find the guy and get him to an airport. He even had the pax looking for the lost ag plane. He was on a flight in the -10 and they were tankering fuel, so lots of reserves.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:17 pm

This is the most incredible thread I've ever read on this site.

Kudos to CD1013, mm320cap and all the others who aren't around but worked to help these two live from a situation that would have been nearly certain death.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:57 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
This is the most incredible thread I've ever read on this site.

Kudos to CD1013, mm320cap and all the others who aren't around but worked to help these two live from a situation that would have been nearly certain death.
"Nearly certain death" is a tad over dramatic.
They had all the proper safety gear, distress beacons, and most probably a portable transceiver.

The heroes on this thread didn't necessarily save any lives, but I'm sure their immediate input to the situation was a great comfort to the guys going down.
And it most probably saved the Coastguard & USN a heap of fuel and wasted time searching for their exact location.

It's a great story, but let's not pretend it was "certain" life-and-death. The risk was there, but small.

:white:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
filejw
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 2:58 am

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:34 pm

RobK wrote:
Moonship wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Is 123.45 a frequency with a special role? It is a catchy number.
On oceanic flights we frequently find a "pathfinder" for weather deviations and turbulence reports. "Is anybody on L453 north of BOREX with a ride report?" Most airlines have a policy to guard 121.5 and 123.45 anytime your outside of VHF ATC. As stated one for emergencies and the other as an air to air regular stuff channel.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


I'm sure the NYC ARINC operators would love you all to do that air-to-air instead of constantly pestering them over the HF for ride reports. When there's TS activity on the L450 routes (which is about 90% of the year) 50% of the comms are B6 pilots asking for ride reports, 25% deviation requests and 25% ARPs for those voice reporting.

When did this start? I have been gone only 3 years and in 20 years of flying international I never heard anybody do this. Almost silly if you know how the system works and who you are talking too.
 
mcg
Posts: 1156
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: PC-12 Ditches in the Pacific

Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:11 pm

Don't forget that the merchant seamen who pulled the crew from the water did an excellent. Their ship wasn't particularly configured for search and rescue and they stuck with the situation and got the pilots out of the water. Well done.

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