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tvh
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beluga medium

Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:17 pm

Is there a case for a beluga medium. The Beluga XL has a diameter of 8.8m. realy overdone to carry a A320 fuselage or wing. A diameter of 4.5 meter would do causing far less drag. For a aircraft like that there could be a market outside airbus.
 
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Polot
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Re: beluga medium

Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:26 pm

The market outside of Airbus is not large enough to justify developing a Beluga M. Within Airbus it is easier to use just one size so you can rotate them around to support all production lines.

Also you are not considering that the pieces are not just floating in there. A A320 fuselage has brackets holding the fuselage and would probably not fit in a 4.5 (external) diameter space.
 
Sokes
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Re: beluga medium

Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:03 pm

How high is the B777 main deck?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
N965UW
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Re: beluga medium

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:41 pm

Sokes wrote:
How high is the B777 main deck?


It'll be a cold day somewhere when A320 components are transported on Boeing aircraft (not to mention the lack of a nose door or swing tail on the 777)
You can always go around
 
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JannEejit
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Re: beluga medium

Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:12 pm

N965UW wrote:
Sokes wrote:
How high is the B777 main deck?


It'll be a cold day somewhere when A320 components are transported on Boeing aircraft (not to mention the lack of a nose door or swing tail on the 777)


Lest we forget that original 'Super Guppy'. :?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:16 am

JannEejit wrote:
N965UW wrote:
Sokes wrote:
How high is the B777 main deck?


It'll be a cold day somewhere when A320 components are transported on Boeing aircraft (not to mention the lack of a nose door or swing tail on the 777)


Lest we forget that original 'Super Guppy'. :?

Or Dreamlifter...

That said, these type of freighters sit, a lot. So peak optimization is not required. It is better if it can handle a variety of loads. It will carry pairs of wings, engines, and someday a future aircraft.

You wouldn't want the business case of a new aircraft dependent upon developing a new Guppy...

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:32 am

lightsaber wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
N965UW wrote:

It'll be a cold day somewhere when A320 components are transported on Boeing aircraft (not to mention the lack of a nose door or swing tail on the 777)


Lest we forget that original 'Super Guppy'. :?

Or Dreamlifter...

That said, these type of freighters sit, a lot. So peak optimization is not required. It is better if it can handle a variety of loads. It will carry pairs of wings, engines, and someday a future aircraft.

You wouldn't want the business case of a new aircraft dependent upon developing a new Guppy...

Lightsaber

When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).
 
Antarius
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:34 am

N965UW wrote:
Sokes wrote:
How high is the B777 main deck?


It'll be a cold day somewhere when A320 components are transported on Boeing aircraft (not to mention the lack of a nose door or swing tail on the 777)


Forgot the super guppy? Airbus used that for years.

Airbus and Boeing are far less antagonistic to each other than a.net leads one to believe.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
Antarius
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:40 am

WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
JannEejit wrote:

Lest we forget that original 'Super Guppy'. :?

Or Dreamlifter...

That said, these type of freighters sit, a lot. So peak optimization is not required. It is better if it can handle a variety of loads. It will carry pairs of wings, engines, and someday a future aircraft.

You wouldn't want the business case of a new aircraft dependent upon developing a new Guppy...

Lightsaber

When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).


Im not sure if Airbus has used the Dreamlifter, but it is not just used by Boeing. The Dreamlifter has been doing covid supply runs, for example
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
kaitak744
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:04 am

Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Or Dreamlifter...

That said, these type of freighters sit, a lot. So peak optimization is not required. It is better if it can handle a variety of loads. It will carry pairs of wings, engines, and someday a future aircraft.

You wouldn't want the business case of a new aircraft dependent upon developing a new Guppy...

Lightsaber

When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).


Im not sure if Airbus has used the Dreamlifter, but it is not just used by Boeing. The Dreamlifter has been doing covid supply runs, for example


Can someone please verify that? I thought the dream lifter cannot open its tail door without a very specialized ground support vehicle that physically swings the tail open? Meaning, it can only open its door where that vehicle already exists (Nagoya, Everett, Charleston, etc).
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1959
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:27 pm

Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Or Dreamlifter...

That said, these type of freighters sit, a lot. So peak optimization is not required. It is better if it can handle a variety of loads. It will carry pairs of wings, engines, and someday a future aircraft.

You wouldn't want the business case of a new aircraft dependent upon developing a new Guppy...

Lightsaber

When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).


Im not sure if Airbus has used the Dreamlifter, but it is not just used by Boeing. The Dreamlifter has been doing covid supply runs, for example

COVID supply runs fall in the category of National Emergency, and rules are bent in this case; but, can "any" company hire the Dreamlifter for its use?

Actually, the 747 TC (Page 28) states the following (bolding mine):
Allowable Cargo: These airplanes are not approved for commercial freight hauling operations of material other than that approved per Exemptions 8769, 8769A and 8769B. Only cargo that supports Boeing corporate lines of business is allowed for carriage. All items intended for carriage must conform to the standards found in Document D926U013-44, “747-400 LCF Flammability Acceptance Criteria for Cargo Carriage,” or be accepted by the FAA once a safe method of transport has been established. A summary of all items allowed for carriage is identified in Document D451U742-01, “Allowable Cargo – 747-400 Large Cargo Freighter.” Document D451U742-01 is considered part of the Weight and Balance Manual/Airplane Flight Manual. In addition, a listing of the FAA-approved shipping mechanical equipment (SME) fixtures that are approved for installation on the 747-400 LCF aircraft are contained in the Weight and Balance Control and Loading Manual (Document D043U545-BHC1).

So, no, it cannot be used outside of of Boeing.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:01 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
JannEejit wrote:

Lest we forget that original 'Super Guppy'. :?

Or Dreamlifter...

That said, these type of freighters sit, a lot. So peak optimization is not required. It is better if it can handle a variety of loads. It will carry pairs of wings, engines, and someday a future aircraft.

You wouldn't want the business case of a new aircraft dependent upon developing a new Guppy...

Lightsaber

When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).

Never. It was another option noting the class of aircraft started by AeroSpaceliners with a modified Boeing 377 for Apollo space program components.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_Sp ... nant_Guppy

There are many options in the pregnant guppy style aircraft, that became the noted super guppy, and on the airbus side the A300 based Beluga and now under discussion the A330 Beluga XL:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Beluga_XL

On the Boeing side, there is the Dreamlifter.

What matters is you do not ever want to be too small.

My response was to the US reference, ironically bought out by Airbus.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:09 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).


Im not sure if Airbus has used the Dreamlifter, but it is not just used by Boeing. The Dreamlifter has been doing covid supply runs, for example

COVID supply runs fall in the category of National Emergency, and rules are bent in this case; but, can "any" company hire the Dreamlifter for its use?

Actually, the 747 TC (Page 28) states the following (bolding mine):
Allowable Cargo: These airplanes are not approved for commercial freight hauling operations of material other than that approved per Exemptions 8769, 8769A and 8769B. Only cargo that supports Boeing corporate lines of business is allowed for carriage. All items intended for carriage must conform to the standards found in Document D926U013-44, “747-400 LCF Flammability Acceptance Criteria for Cargo Carriage,” or be accepted by the FAA once a safe method of transport has been established. A summary of all items allowed for carriage is identified in Document D451U742-01, “Allowable Cargo – 747-400 Large Cargo Freighter.” Document D451U742-01 is considered part of the Weight and Balance Manual/Airplane Flight Manual. In addition, a listing of the FAA-approved shipping mechanical equipment (SME) fixtures that are approved for installation on the 747-400 LCF aircraft are contained in the Weight and Balance Control and Loading Manual (Document D043U545-BHC1).

So, no, it cannot be used outside of of Boeing.

That, within a very restrictive flamability requirement, could be easily expanded. The issue with the Dreamlifter is an insufficient fire fighting capability. There is also a narrow weight balance certified envelope. That is due to few cargo expected, so all get placed just so in the aircraft for incredibly simple weight balance calculations. e.g., truss holding dry wings attached at points C through K (I'm making up numbers) and that ensures a fire safe and balanced load.

Adding loads is easy. Boeing will bid to NASA for example. But only in an emergency can flammable stuff like facemasks on pallets be carried. To say the least, pallets of laptops with lithium batteries are forbidden.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
Antarius
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:40 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
Can someone please verify that? I thought the dream lifter cannot open its tail door without a very specialized ground support vehicle that physically swings the tail open? Meaning, it can only open its door where that vehicle already exists (Nagoya, Everett, Charleston, etc).


Here is a link. It brought supplies from HKG https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... ion-2020-3

WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).


Im not sure if Airbus has used the Dreamlifter, but[list=][/list] it is not just used by Boeing. The Dreamlifter has been doing covid supply runs, for example

COVID supply runs fall in the category of National Emergency, and rules are bent in this case; but, can "any" company hire the Dreamlifter for its use?

Actually, the 747 TC (Page 28) states the following (bolding mine):
Allowable Cargo: These airplanes are not approved for commercial freight hauling operations of material other than that approved per Exemptions 8769, 8769A and 8769B. Only cargo that supports Boeing corporate lines of business is allowed for carriage. All items intended for carriage must conform to the standards found in Document D926U013-44, “747-400 LCF Flammability Acceptance Criteria for Cargo Carriage,” or be accepted by the FAA once a safe method of transport has been established. A summary of all items allowed for carriage is identified in Document D451U742-01, “Allowable Cargo – 747-400 Large Cargo Freighter.” Document D451U742-01 is considered part of the Weight and Balance Manual/Airplane Flight Manual. In addition, a listing of the FAA-approved shipping mechanical equipment (SME) fixtures that are approved for installation on the 747-400 LCF aircraft are contained in the Weight and Balance Control and Loading Manual (Document D043U545-BHC1).

So, no, it cannot be used outside of of Boeing.


Got it. Thanks for the detail. :)
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Let's all just use some common sense
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1959
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Im not sure if Airbus has used the Dreamlifter, but it is not just used by Boeing. The Dreamlifter has been doing covid supply runs, for example

COVID supply runs fall in the category of National Emergency, and rules are bent in this case; but, can "any" company hire the Dreamlifter for its use?

Actually, the 747 TC (Page 28) states the following (bolding mine):
Allowable Cargo: These airplanes are not approved for commercial freight hauling operations of material other than that approved per Exemptions 8769, 8769A and 8769B. Only cargo that supports Boeing corporate lines of business is allowed for carriage. All items intended for carriage must conform to the standards found in Document D926U013-44, “747-400 LCF Flammability Acceptance Criteria for Cargo Carriage,” or be accepted by the FAA once a safe method of transport has been established. A summary of all items allowed for carriage is identified in Document D451U742-01, “Allowable Cargo – 747-400 Large Cargo Freighter.” Document D451U742-01 is considered part of the Weight and Balance Manual/Airplane Flight Manual. In addition, a listing of the FAA-approved shipping mechanical equipment (SME) fixtures that are approved for installation on the 747-400 LCF aircraft are contained in the Weight and Balance Control and Loading Manual (Document D043U545-BHC1).

So, no, it cannot be used outside of of Boeing.

That, within a very restrictive flamability requirement, could be easily expanded. The issue with the Dreamlifter is an insufficient fire fighting capability. There is also a narrow weight balance certified envelope. That is due to few cargo expected, so all get placed just so in the aircraft for incredibly simple weight balance calculations. e.g., truss holding dry wings attached at points C through K (I'm making up numbers) and that ensures a fire safe and balanced load.

Adding loads is easy. Boeing will bid to NASA for example. But only in an emergency can flammable stuff like facemasks on pallets be carried. To say the least, pallets of laptops with lithium batteries are forbidden.

Lightsaber

Well, as of today, it's not the case: it's for the sole purpose of Boeing activities (military and space included).
Given the fallback of the FAA (lack of) oversight of Boeing's activities, that was recently fully exposed due to the 737 MAX debacle, I wouldn't expect that restriction to be "easily" lifted; unless someone slaps a NATIONAL EMERGENCY on the request paperwork.
 
WIederling
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:47 pm

tvh wrote:
Is there a case for a beluga medium. The Beluga XL has a diameter of 8.8m. realy overdone to carry a A320 fuselage or wing. A diameter of 4.5 meter would do causing far less drag. For a aircraft like that there could be a market outside airbus.


Long time ago there was Guppy Fan around:
http://www.allaboutguppys.com/

He also collected quite a bit about the Beluga MK1 and various concepts
bandied about in that context:
http://www.allaboutguppys.com/beluga/600stf.htm

see the diameter variations:
http://www.allaboutguppys.com/beluga/gupy333a.jpg
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:
That said, these type of freighters sit, a lot.


scheduling for the Beluga ST / XL fleet(s) is tight.
turnaround time seem to be rather short?
( lot of work went into that transport system inclusive of the changeover
to "put your nose in it" loading/unloading)

the Mk1 Fleet did 10k hours in 2017. Per plane 5 flights a day?
about 5.3h/d in a 6 day week per Beluga?
Murphy is an optimist
 
N965UW
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:34 pm

Antarius wrote:
N965UW wrote:
Sokes wrote:
How high is the B777 main deck?


It'll be a cold day somewhere when A320 components are transported on Boeing aircraft (not to mention the lack of a nose door or swing tail on the 777)


Forgot the super guppy? Airbus used that for years.

Airbus and Boeing are far less antagonistic to each other than a.net leads one to believe.


I will admit I overlooked the Super Guppy. Although it should be qualified by the following:

- The later Super Guppy Turbine assembled by Aero Spacelines had a main fuselage section built from scratch, as opposed to the original expansion of a Boeing 377

- The competitive Airbus/Boeing duopoly was not yet in full swing during the Guppy era

Basically my point is that seeing a Beluga transport Boeing parts or Airbus contracting a 777 to carry their parts would be unlikely today. But I suppose anything is possible, especially if the price is right.
You can always go around
 
Jet-lagged
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:44 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
When has the Dreamlifter transported Airbus Components? I thought the Dreamlifter was for the exclusive use of Boeing (unlike the Beluga which can be leased out).


Im not sure if Airbus has used the Dreamlifter, but it is not just used by Boeing. The Dreamlifter has been doing covid supply runs, for example


Can someone please verify that? I thought the dream lifter cannot open its tail door without a very specialized ground support vehicle that physically swings the tail open? Meaning, it can only open its door where that vehicle already exists (Nagoya, Everett, Charleston, etc).



Once I saw it land and get opened at Everett. The vehicle at the back looked like just a big forktruck to me.
 
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zeke
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Re: beluga medium

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:04 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
Can someone please verify that? I thought the dream lifter cannot open its tail door without a very specialized ground support vehicle that physically swings the tail open? Meaning, it can only open its door where that vehicle already exists (Nagoya, Everett, Charleston, etc).


According to this article https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... ion-2020-3

The COVID charters used the underfloor space, on the main deck they carried 787 parts. The loading in HKG was done using pallets under the floor.
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