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Ishrion
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Updated: DOT Approved Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture (update, was tentative)

Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:43 pm

The DOT has tentatively approved the American Airlines, British Airways, Iberia, and Finnair transatlantic joint venture to include Aer Lingus.

By this Order, the U.S. Department of Transportation (the Department) tentatively grants the motion of American Airlines, Inc. (American), British Airways PLC (British Airways), OpenSkies SAS (OpenSkies), Iberia Líneas Aéreas de España, S.A. (Iberia), Finnair OYJ (Finnair), and Aer Lingus Group DAC (Aer Lingus) (collectively, “the Parties”) to amend DOT Order 2010-7-8 and extend the existing grant of antitrust immunity (ATI) to Aer Lingus. The Department, subject to the conditions in this Order, tentatively approves, and grants antitrust immunity for, the set of agreements the Parties have submitted in Appendix 1 of the Joint Motion (Amended JBA)


https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0252-3450

Obviously it's rather unlikely we'll see any new routes immediately with the current situation.

Are there any countries that have not approved Aer Lingus joining the JV?
 
User001
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:52 pm

Obviously it's rather unlikely we'll see any new routes immediately with the current situation.


I assume your not up to speed with the new Aer Lingus TATL base at Manchester being proposed for Summer 2021?

That new base fits into this news very nicely!
Last edited by User001 on Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Ishrion
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:56 pm

User001 wrote:
Obviously it's rather unlikely we'll see any new routes immediately with the current situation.


I assume your not up to speed with the new Aer Lingus TATl base being proposed for Summer 2021?

That new base fits into this very nicely!


Ah, I forgot about the new Manchester long-haul flights.
 
User001
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:00 pm

Ishrion wrote:

Ah, I forgot about the new Manchester long-haul flights.


Apologies as ive just read my response and it comes across as unintentionally rude.

I certainly wasnt aiming to be, but with the MAN news being tucked away in the Irish and MAN threads, was genuinely unsure if it had been seen.
 
Ishrion
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:06 pm

User001 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

Ah, I forgot about the new Manchester long-haul flights.


Apologies as ive just read my response and it comes across as unintentionally rude.

I certainly wasnt aiming to be, but with the MAN news being tucked away in the Irish and MAN threads, was genuinely unsure if it had been seen.


No, it wasn't rude at all.

It'll be exciting to see what they launch and if the JV influences any decisions.
 
User001
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:13 pm

Well the good news about the JV means that now the MAN base is essentially BA in disguise due to the revenue share.

Hopefully this means companies like British Airways holidays used the Aer Lingus MAN flights and thus boost the brand awareness. MAN-MCO on EI would benefit no end if BA holidays got behind it.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:17 pm

I’m happy for this, hopefully I’ll be able to both get tier points and pre-clear US customs and use the lounges when flying to the US from LBA now.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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klm617
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:36 pm

User001 wrote:
Obviously it's rather unlikely we'll see any new routes immediately with the current situation.


I assume your not up to speed with the new Aer Lingus TATL base at Manchester being proposed for Summer 2021?

That new base fits into this news very nicely!


Where has it been proposed other than on a.net ?
 
User001
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
User001 wrote:
Obviously it's rather unlikely we'll see any new routes immediately with the current situation.


I assume your not up to speed with the new Aer Lingus TATL base at Manchester being proposed for Summer 2021?

That new base fits into this news very nicely!


Where has it been proposed other than on a.net ?


Social media, mainstream media, ACL slot requests, anna.aero and other forums for a start.....
 
Ishrion
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:57 pm

klm617 wrote:
User001 wrote:
Obviously it's rather unlikely we'll see any new routes immediately with the current situation.


I assume your not up to speed with the new Aer Lingus TATL base at Manchester being proposed for Summer 2021?

That new base fits into this news very nicely!


Where has it been proposed other than on a.net ?


ACL's site shows Aer Lingus securing MAN slots as a "new longhaul operator with four based aircraft. One A330 and 3x A321LR, destinations tbc".

https://www.acl-uk.org/latest-airport-info/
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:14 pm

Air Lingus will benefit at MAN and DUB. Eventually this downturn will end and joining up with AA in the USA will help.

Without new runways at LGR, IAG will have to compete elsewhere.

Lightsaber
 
AirMatt
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:21 pm

Are there plans for Aer Lingus to re-join OneWorld?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:42 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Without new runways at LGR, IAG will have to compete elsewhere.


That's the interesting thing. DOT's order shows U.S.-Ireland traffic as 56% non-stop O&D and just 15% with a connection in Europe (+2 points more with connections both U.S. and Ireland). DUB hasn't (thus far) worked as a powerhouse for European connections.
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:46 pm

AirMatt wrote:
Are there plans for Aer Lingus to re-join OneWorld?


Time will tell. This has been a discussion in the works for several years now, and much has changed in the landscape, most notably with leadership changes across IAG. There are a lot of crossed wires in this mix, and COVID-19 threw another wrench in there.
 
Galwayman
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:54 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Without new runways at LGR, IAG will have to compete elsewhere.


That's the interesting thing. DOT's order shows U.S.-Ireland traffic as 56% non-stop O&D and just 15% with a connection in Europe (+2 points more with connections both U.S. and Ireland). DUB hasn't (thus far) worked as a powerhouse for European connections.


So what happens to the other 21%? And if it's only EI offering connections of all 5 Plus Transatlantic carriers would it mean that EI have at least 30% transfers? And what about self - connects with FR which could generate £85 ADP tax savings ..... ? And at least one million people a year driving across the border from the UK. Cetainly lots of Canadian travellers understand they can save a fortune by spending at least 1 night in Dublin at the start or finish of their European tours ...would those be known to the DoT?
 
BrianDromey
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:10 pm

Galwayman wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Without new runways at LGR, IAG will have to compete elsewhere.


That's the interesting thing. DOT's order shows U.S.-Ireland traffic as 56% non-stop O&D and just 15% with a connection in Europe (+2 points more with connections both U.S. and Ireland). DUB hasn't (thus far) worked as a powerhouse for European connections.


So what happens to the other 21%? And if it's only EI offering connections of all 5 Plus Transatlantic carriers would it mean that EI have at least 30% transfers? And what about self - connects with FR which could generate £85 ADP tax savings ..... ? And at least one million people a year driving across the border from the UK. Cetainly lots of Canadian travellers understand they can save a fortune by spending at least 1 night in Dublin at the start or finish of their European tours ...would those be known to the DoT?


30% sounds about right, from what has been mentioned on the Irish threads. I guess the unaccounted for traffic might be to the UK? Canadian and FR self-transfers would be counted as O&D.
 
Galwayman
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:12 am

If it's 56% O&D then thats 44% connecting to Uk or EU? That makes the DUB hub a great success ....
 
drdisque
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:16 am

Does that 56% include or exclude connections on the US side from UA and B6?
 
Detroit313
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:01 am

Good news for AA and IAG.

All that is left now is Iberia to take over Air Europa so it can dominate Madrid and oneworld will have 3 great hubs for connections. London, Dublin and Madrid.
 
Detroit313
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:34 am

Dublin is so perfectly located to connect to anywhere in Europe.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:32 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Dublin is so perfectly located to connect to anywhere in Europe.


Unfortunately the logistics are seriously no fun. You can't transit from one INTL flight to another without, in some cases, walking TO A DIFFERENT TERMINAL to simply wave your passport in front of someone and then walk all the way back. I did GVA->DUB->YYZ->DUB->GVA, and both times (I know this is rare but still) the ongoing aircraft was at the NEXT GATE in the "round" terminal and I had to be pushed (Was in a wheelchair at the time) 15-20 minutes each way for this silly check. This should be able to be done in the same postal code as your flights.

And no, this was not during COVID, it was last Christmas. I sent a letter to the poor lady who had to literally sprint me down the halls to barely make my ongoing flight.
 
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zeke
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:37 am

Ishrion wrote:
The DOT has tentatively approved the American Airlines, British Airways, Iberia, and Finnair transatlantic joint venture to include Aer Lingus.

By this Order, the U.S. Department of Transportation (the Department) tentatively grants the motion of American Airlines, Inc. (American), British Airways PLC (British Airways), OpenSkies SAS (OpenSkies), Iberia Líneas Aéreas de España, S.A. (Iberia), Finnair OYJ (Finnair), and Aer Lingus Group DAC (Aer Lingus) (collectively, “the Parties”) to amend DOT Order 2010-7-8 and extend the existing grant of antitrust immunity (ATI) to Aer Lingus. The Department, subject to the conditions in this Order, tentatively approves, and grants antitrust immunity for, the set of agreements the Parties have submitted in Appendix 1 of the Joint Motion (Amended JBA)


https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0252-3450

Obviously it's rather unlikely we'll see any new routes immediately with the current situation.

Are there any countries that have not approved Aer Lingus joining the JV?


This is like 1999 when they joined one world all over again.
 
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vhtje
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:01 am

So when does EI unwind its relationship with UA? I assume this means terminal and gate moves for EI at various US airports? Moving from G gates to A gates at SFO springs to mind.
 
chonetsao
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:58 am

Galwayman wrote:
If it's 56% O&D then thats 44% connecting to Uk or EU? That makes the DUB hub a great success ....


I don't know how they count O&D or connecting, but I know many people take a coach from Belfast or Londonderry to Dublin. Myself have done with flying to Dublin on BA in a separate ticket, stay overnight and then take the early morning flight to US. It was so much cheaper as Dublin seems to have great business class fares in summer time. In that case I would be counted as O&D rather than connecting while in fact I was doing a self transit. And I know I am not alone, Dublin airport hotels in summer is full of passengers like me.
 
cityshuttle
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:44 am

I know that currently only T2 and T5 are open at LHR, but would EI eventually also leave T2 anytime soon (past Covid) and move in at T5 (or T3) ? I know they have a decent lounge in T2 next to the Lufthansa lounge ...
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:29 pm

Will EI more to T8 at JFK and co-locate with the rest of OW, including AY, BA (2022), QF, CX, and AA and IB (2022?) ?
 
LupineChemist
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:03 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Will EI more to T8 at JFK and co-locate with the rest of OW, including AY, BA (2022), QF, CX, and AA and IB (2022?) ?


I would think EI moving would be the biggest improvement in passenger experience if they are selling onward connection with AA since landing with pre-clearance would mean a seamless connection.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:42 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Will EI more to T8 at JFK and co-locate with the rest of OW, including AY, BA (2022), QF, CX, and AA and IB (2022?) ?

It's too early to say, but does AA offer as much to EI at Terminal 8 as B6 does at T5? Online connections with AA can be done via ORD or PHL, I would think? We don't know what EI's ongoing relationships will be at this stage. There is also a commitment from the time of the IAG purchase that EI will maintain historical partnerships, namely UA, B6 and KL.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:12 am

BrianDromey wrote:
It's too early to say, but does AA offer as much to EI at Terminal 8 as B6 does at T5? Online connections with AA can be done via ORD or PHL, I would think? We don't know what EI's ongoing relationships will be at this stage. There is also a commitment from the time of the IAG purchase that EI will maintain historical partnerships, namely UA, B6 and KL.


Sure, and over five years on, I'd say they can do what they like with those partnerships. I am certain they committed to maintain them as the partners would have been wondering if they were going to be ditched at the time of the sale. So much time has now passed that I believe commercial realities can now take over without any fallout. An airline is not going to commit to maintain partnerships then stick to that for the next 50 years. They did what was promised at the time and now it's irrelevant, in my opinion.

If staying with B6 works best, that's what they'll do, if not, they'll move. Simple.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:20 pm

Galwayman wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Without new runways at LGR, IAG will have to compete elsewhere.


That's the interesting thing. DOT's order shows U.S.-Ireland traffic as 56% non-stop O&D and just 15% with a connection in Europe (+2 points more with connections both U.S. and Ireland). DUB hasn't (thus far) worked as a powerhouse for European connections.


So what happens to the other 21%?


BrianDromey wrote:
30% sounds about right, from what has been mentioned on the Irish threads. I guess the unaccounted for traffic might be to the UK? Canadian and FR self-transfers would be counted as O&D.


Galwayman wrote:
If it's 56% O&D then thats 44% connecting to Uk or EU? That makes the DUB hub a great success ....


drdisque wrote:
Does that 56% include or exclude connections on the US side from UA and B6?


The document from Ishrion's first-post link, the one I cited, shows 27% as connecting in the U.S.

People doing self-connects are chasing the absolute lowest fare with little regard for the value of their time. You can't build a full-service airline around people who chase garbage fares. Norwegian couldn't even build a TATL ULCC around that.

Spend some time with the U.S. DOT doc - or other well-researched sources of public data, and see if you still want to argue the DUB connecting hub is a great success for TATL travel. Perhaps look at fractions of connecting traffic at LHR/CDG/AMS/ATL/DFW/CLT for context. (IMHO, unless [email protected] is passenger-limited, instead of slot-limited, they could just upgauge the LHR-Continental flights instead of trying to make DUB a big connecting hub.)
 
LupineChemist
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That's the interesting thing. DOT's order shows U.S.-Ireland traffic as 56% non-stop O&D and just 15% with a connection in Europe (+2 points more with connections both U.S. and Ireland). DUB hasn't (thus far) worked as a powerhouse for European connections.


So what happens to the other 21%?


BrianDromey wrote:
30% sounds about right, from what has been mentioned on the Irish threads. I guess the unaccounted for traffic might be to the UK? Canadian and FR self-transfers would be counted as O&D.


Galwayman wrote:
If it's 56% O&D then thats 44% connecting to Uk or EU? That makes the DUB hub a great success ....


drdisque wrote:
Does that 56% include or exclude connections on the US side from UA and B6?


The document from Ishrion's first-post link, the one I cited, shows 27% as connecting in the U.S.

People doing self-connects are chasing the absolute lowest fare with little regard for the value of their time. You can't build a full-service airline around people who chase garbage fares. Norwegian couldn't even build a TATL ULCC around that.

Spend some time with the U.S. DOT doc - or other well-researched sources of public data, and see if you still want to argue the DUB connecting hub is a great success for TATL travel. Perhaps look at fractions of connecting traffic at LHR/CDG/AMS/ATL/DFW/CLT for context. (IMHO, unless [email protected] is passenger-limited, instead of slot-limited, they could just upgauge the LHR-Continental flights instead of trying to make DUB a big connecting hub.)


The thing is that it's much easier to grow at DUB and if you can connect someone there rather than LHR, that's a much more lucrative O/D seat you can sell in and out of London.
 
Ishrion
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:47 am

Delta has commented on the DOT's decision to allow Aer Lingus to join the Oneworld TATL JV. Delta doesn't object.

Andrew Smith, a commenter, suggests the JV airlines should offer a minimum number of seats on DUB-ORD/PHL each year.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0252-3451
 
Detroit313
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:27 am

Who cares what Delta thinks? They have JVs with KLM, Air France and Virgin. Having an issue with Aer Lingus would be hypocritical
 
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Aisak
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:06 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Will EI more to T8 at JFK and co-locate with the rest of OW, including AY, BA (2022), QF, CX, and AA and IB (2022?) ?


I would think EI moving would be the biggest improvement in passenger experience if they are selling onward connection with AA since landing with pre-clearance would mean a seamless connection.

Yes but let’s not forget that collocation also has its drawbacks on top of its advantages.
Aer Lingus is owned by IAG who also owns BA (and IB). Yet IAG **PREFERS** to let EI spend money on T5 space, gate(s), lounge instead of moving with BA at T7 so “the rent” could be kept within the group. Instead, EI is paying to a third party. AA would be no better than maintaining the T5 ops.

It might also have something (a lot) to do with the investment on the T5 lounge.
You just don’t change terminals and abandon your investment. EI will have to pay AA for Lounge Access instead of having its own that anytime can be monetized by allowing 3rd parties (PriorityPass) guests in.
And as others have said I’m sure there are other better suited airports to connect onto a 3rd party for onwards US connections (with better schedules/frequencies/OpDisruptions) such as ORD, PHL or even DFW.
Look at LHR, home of BA. Aer Lingus is at T2 while most of BA operation is at T5 (even full as it is). But they run an Aer Lingus Lounge at T2. It’s not easy to leave your investment behind, operational advantages or not...

AerLingus case is not the only one seen at JFK regarding collocation. While AF is part of the consortium owning T1, KLM was kept at T4 even when NW merged into Delta.
And not even all the LH Group airlines are housed along co-owner LH. And I bet LH would prefer EW to be paying TOGA airlines instead of rival BA at T7.

The terminal redevelopment taking place at JFK will for sure see some airlines relocating and moving close to partners, but for now...
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:43 pm

Aisak wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Will EI more to T8 at JFK and co-locate with the rest of OW, including AY, BA (2022), QF, CX, and AA and IB (2022?) ?


I would think EI moving would be the biggest improvement in passenger experience if they are selling onward connection with AA since landing with pre-clearance would mean a seamless connection.

Yes but let’s not forget that collocation also has its drawbacks on top of its advantages.
Aer Lingus is owned by IAG who also owns BA (and IB). Yet IAG **PREFERS** to let EI spend money on T5 space, gate(s), lounge instead of moving with BA at T7 so “the rent” could be kept within the group. Instead, EI is paying to a third party. AA would be no better than maintaining the T5 ops.

It might also have something (a lot) to do with the investment on the T5 lounge.
You just don’t change terminals and abandon your investment. EI will have to pay AA for Lounge Access instead of having its own that anytime can be monetized by allowing 3rd parties (PriorityPass) guests in.
And as others have said I’m sure there are other better suited airports to connect onto a 3rd party for onwards US connections (with better schedules/frequencies/OpDisruptions) such as ORD, PHL or even DFW.
Look at LHR, home of BA. Aer Lingus is at T2 while most of BA operation is at T5 (even full as it is). But they run an Aer Lingus Lounge at T2. It’s not easy to leave your investment behind, operational advantages or not...

AerLingus case is not the only one seen at JFK regarding collocation. While AF is part of the consortium owning T1, KLM was kept at T4 even when NW merged into Delta.
And not even all the LH Group airlines are housed along co-owner LH. And I bet LH would prefer EW to be paying TOGA airlines instead of rival BA at T7.

The terminal redevelopment taking place at JFK will for sure see some airlines relocating and moving close to partners, but for now...


Yes, but Jet Blue owns and operates Terminal 5 and so it could just as easily not renew EI's lease or it could opt to continue to collect revenue from the gate usage EI gets there (as well as the Lounge). Terminal 7 is going to be demolished and it is a given that BA will move to T8 in 2022. In January 2020, work began on adding 33,000 square feet of public space and renovating and refurbishing 57,000 square feet of existing space. While AA's gate usage is way, way down, there were plans to add 5 to accommodate BA and British Airways will be building its own lounges at T8 and presumably, if EI were to move to T8, its customers would have the option to use either the BA or AA lounges depending on their level of status. Iberia is also slated to move to T8. Whether or not EI remains at T5 depends largely on whether B6 needs the gates EI utilizes based on B6's schedule of operation and if EI and B6 do not extend their code share.

As for Terminal 4, KLM operates from there for a couple of reasons. First, KLM and AF operate as separate entities even though they are part of the same group. Terminal 4 was developed and built by a consortium that includes Schiphol Group, the company that operates Amsterdam's airport and there is a nexus there as to why KLM operates from T4. Until the pandemic, T1 was also literally bursting at the seams as so many airlines moved there from T4 as Delta expanded its footprint there. T1 itself is due to be demolished and rebuilt, though all that seems very likely to be pushed off into the future depending on the pandemic and whatever arrangements AF/JL/LH/KE agree upon in terms of future ownership structure as they financed the development of T1, which in 1998, when it opened, was the newest terminal at JFK. The ownership structure is why JL maintains its operation at T1 and not at T8 where AA and most other oneworld airlines fly from (CX, QF, AY, RJ, QR).

Lastly, as to why EI does not fly from T7, even before the pandemic, there are logical explanations for that unrelated to how IAG operates. First, B6 and EI have had a commercial agreement for some time. Second, T7 was, itself, over-extended pre-pandemic and a difficult place to operate from at peak times, which is why CX and QF moved to T8. T7 is small. The FIS facility is a mess when afternoon arrivals peak, with long lines snaking back to the gates (this is obviously not a problem now) and before the pandemic, you also had DY flying half its schedule from there (split with T1). EI, at T5, vs T7, was in a better location, with its own lounge, and a more customer pleasing facility.
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:55 pm

The JV has received final approval from the DOT:

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing ... y-addition
 
775899
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:24 pm

Ishrion wrote:
The JV has received final approval from the DOT:

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing ... y-addition


They should just rejoin oneworld.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 715
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Updated: DOT Approved Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture (update, was tentative)

Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:20 am

Why are they not joining oneworld though?

Another partner of them, Alaska, is about to join too. They should just do it.
 
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ElroyJetson
Posts: 1098
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Updated: DOT Approved Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture (update, was tentative)

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:04 am

Additional information on final approval from Reuters.



https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/u-gi ... 59154.html
 
tootallsd
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:02 pm

Re: Updated: DOT Approved Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture (update, was tentative)

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:04 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
Additional information on final approval from Reuters.



https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/u-gi ... 59154.html


Interesting that the DOJ cites the presence of Norwegian as a way that competition between Ireland and the US is protected. Isn't this the same Norwegian that is essentially bankrupt. I don't allege that anticompetitive behavior has caused the airline's bankruptcy but it clearly, in today's/tomorrow's circumstances not a viable competitor.
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That's the interesting thing. DOT's order shows U.S.-Ireland traffic as 56% non-stop O&D and just 15% with a connection in Europe (+2 points more with connections both U.S. and Ireland). DUB hasn't (thus far) worked as a powerhouse for European connections.


So what happens to the other 21%?


BrianDromey wrote:
30% sounds about right, from what has been mentioned on the Irish threads. I guess the unaccounted for traffic might be to the UK? Canadian and FR self-transfers would be counted as O&D.


Galwayman wrote:
If it's 56% O&D then thats 44% connecting to Uk or EU? That makes the DUB hub a great success ....


drdisque wrote:
Does that 56% include or exclude connections on the US side from UA and B6?


The document from Ishrion's first-post link, the one I cited, shows 27% as connecting in the U.S.

People doing self-connects are chasing the absolute lowest fare with little regard for the value of their time. You can't build a full-service airline around people who chase garbage fares. Norwegian couldn't even build a TATL ULCC around that.

Spend some time with the U.S. DOT doc - or other well-researched sources of public data, and see if you still want to argue the DUB connecting hub is a great success for TATL travel. Perhaps look at fractions of connecting traffic at LHR/CDG/AMS/ATL/DFW/CLT for context. (IMHO, unless [email protected] is passenger-limited, instead of slot-limited, they could just upgauge the LHR-Continental flights instead of trying to make DUB a big connecting hub.)


DUB is actually a much better place to serve as a connecting center than LHR and the reason is almost solely based on costs than anything else. Just as the DL/AF/KL alliance use AMS and ATL as the principle transmit hubs you will likely see PHL and DUB be the principle transit hubs for the AA-IAG alliance. Sure LHR has a lot of demand and connection opportunities but its also a much more expensive place to operate from.

If there is anything AA mgmt is really good it, its at making money on connecting itineraries. This was Kirby and Parker's stock and trade at USAirways. What does a connecting itinerary require: A competitive schedule (compared to other connecting routings) and a competitive price for the class of service. This isn't about selling rock bottom fares (that's what Icelandair is about). This is about selling BOS-HAM or MSP-BER that gets you in at about the same time as DL/KL or UA/LH does for around the same price.

Remember, the customer (be it either for personal or corporate reasons) is comparing those two variables and they are looking at departure time and arrival time and final price. The soft things come in later...and I will discuss below. So based on the time/price factor...what does DUB offer:
1. Lower operating costs (EI's operating costs give the JV more room to price competitively)
2. Lower airport costs/Taxes (DUB's operation is much lower and this is much bigger than you might think....remember the final price has to be roughly the same, so having a lower airport fee and lower tax means the JV gets to raise the fare. This is why AA loves to push you through CLT and DL through ATL...they keep more of the ticket price) This is super true with J class where the LHR luxury class tax is stupid-crazy.
3. DUB's location makes routings more competitive, especially to UK.

Now there are some soft things that come into play:
1. Real F class. If you want to fly First, then yes...you essentially need to route yourself through LHR, CDG, ZRH or FRA.
2. Onboard service. Are there folks who will pay more for BA's better service than EI? Yes...but more will probably be okay with regular AA/EI.
3. Lounges. No question...LHR has better airport services and if this is your bag, then you probably would rather connect. I will admit that I double connected once from the South of France just so that I could hit up the Virgin Clubhouse. Was it worth the extra £100? On the surface,no but I got to meet Annette Bening and that was cool.
4. Frequent Flyer Benefits. If EI offers the same OneWorld benefits, then this becomes a tie with LHR.
 
MLIAA
Posts: 337
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: DOT Tentatively Approves Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:16 pm

N717TW wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Galwayman wrote:

So what happens to the other 21%?


BrianDromey wrote:
30% sounds about right, from what has been mentioned on the Irish threads. I guess the unaccounted for traffic might be to the UK? Canadian and FR self-transfers would be counted as O&D.


Galwayman wrote:
If it's 56% O&D then thats 44% connecting to Uk or EU? That makes the DUB hub a great success ....



drdisque wrote:
Does that 56% include or exclude connections on the US side from UA and B6?


The document from Ishrion's first-post link, the one I cited, shows 27% as connecting in the U.S.

People doing self-connects are chasing the absolute lowest fare with little regard for the value of their time. You can't build a full-service airline around people who chase garbage fares. Norwegian couldn't even build a TATL ULCC around that.

Spend some time with the U.S. DOT doc - or other well-researched sources of public data, and see if you still want to argue the DUB connecting hub is a great success for TATL travel. Perhaps look at fractions of connecting traffic at LHR/CDG/AMS/ATL/DFW/CLT for context. (IMHO, unless [email protected] is passenger-limited, instead of slot-limited, they could just upgauge the LHR-Continental flights instead of trying to make DUB a big connecting hub.)


DUB is actually a much better place to serve as a connecting center than LHR and the reason is almost solely based on costs than anything else. Just as the DL/AF/KL alliance use AMS and ATL as the principle transmit hubs you will likely see PHL and DUB be the principle transit hubs for the AA-IAG alliance. Sure LHR has a lot of demand and connection opportunities but its also a much more expensive place to operate from.

If there is anything AA mgmt is really good it, its at making money on connecting itineraries. This was Kirby and Parker's stock and trade at USAirways. What does a connecting itinerary require: A competitive schedule (compared to other connecting routings) and a competitive price for the class of service. This isn't about selling rock bottom fares (that's what Icelandair is about). This is about selling BOS-HAM or MSP-BER that gets you in at about the same time as DL/KL or UA/LH does for around the same price.

Remember, the customer (be it either for personal or corporate reasons) is comparing those two variables and they are looking at departure time and arrival time and final price. The soft things come in later...and I will discuss below. So based on the time/price factor...what does DUB offer:
1. Lower operating costs (EI's operating costs give the JV more room to price competitively)
2. Lower airport costs/Taxes (DUB's operation is much lower and this is much bigger than you might think....remember the final price has to be roughly the same, so having a lower airport fee and lower tax means the JV gets to raise the fare. This is why AA loves to push you through CLT and DL through ATL...they keep more of the ticket price) This is super true with J class where the LHR luxury class tax is stupid-crazy.
3. DUB's location makes routings more competitive, especially to UK.

Now there are some soft things that come into play:
1. Real F class. If you want to fly First, then yes...you essentially need to route yourself through LHR, CDG, ZRH or FRA.
2. Onboard service. Are there folks who will pay more for BA's better service than EI? Yes...but more will probably be okay with regular AA/EI.
3. Lounges. No question...LHR has better airport services and if this is your bag, then you probably would rather connect. I will admit that I double connected once from the South of France just so that I could hit up the Virgin Clubhouse. Was it worth the extra £100? On the surface,no but I got to meet Annette Bening and that was cool.
4. Frequent Flyer Benefits. If EI offers the same OneWorld benefits, then this becomes a tie with LHR.


Agree with all of this, especially if LHR doesn’t get a 3rd runway. There’s plenty of room to grow at DUB, it’s cheaper, customs preclearance, EI itself is cheaper... I could go all day. DUB could see enormous growth in the future.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1357
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Updated: DOT Approved Aer Lingus Joining the AA/BA/IB/AY Joint Venture (update, was tentative)

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:27 pm

Does this mean that EI will be unwinding its relationship with UA? If so, when?

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