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PI4EVR
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:00 pm

AA will operate one roundtrip MIA-LGA effective Dec 29 as AA718. The aircraft is clearly identified in the schedule display as a 7M8 737 MAX 8.
Fares begin at $99.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:00 pm

Does anyone know if airlines will show the equipment in their search results differently? I remember AA tried to show it in a unique way.
 
Cdydatzigs
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:13 pm

csavel wrote:
Ordinarily I would agree with you but the publicity on the 737 Max is such that people will try to avoid it. It's been on the news almost as talked about as the US election.


The 737MAX and the election have not even remotely had the same amount of coverage. 95% of the flying public won't care or remember what they are flying on in the next year and beyond, especially if they are rebranded as the -7, -8, -9, etc.
 
Cdydatzigs
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:17 pm

BooDog wrote:
I feel safe, simply because of this: If a single Max crashes in the next year, It'll be the end of Boeing. All reputation gained over the past 100 years will be dead.


If it was determined said crash was related to the design or MCAS, it could mean the end of the MAX, but not the end of Boeing. Especially since everyone has scrutinized and signed off on the airplane this time, so there is no single company to blame.
 
Cdydatzigs
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:20 pm

rising wrote:
Haven't the Max jets technically been flying? I thought they move them around from time to time... positioning flights etc. Someone at the airline is flying them..... I was found it odd it was grounded yet they were flying around, just with no pax. No pilot would fly a plane that they thought unsafe. I always found that part odd as someone was flying them. Unless... did that stop a while ago?


"Grounded" means for revenue service by commercial operators, but the manufacturer can still fly them for testing without passengers aboard.
 
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Revelation
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:29 pm

ojjunior wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Any details on what is fixed?

That's exactly what I would like to know.
What (whatever reason was) and how it was fixed and what did Boeing change in its structure to avoid similar cases in future developments.
Saying they fired the responsibles is not an answer.

The best answer I could find to this comes from Boeing's FAQ:

Q: How have you responded to internal and external reviews and audits following the two accidents?
A: We have taken a number of actions to further enhance the safety culture of our company.
These actions include:
  • Established a permanent aerospace safety committee of the company’s board of directors and reorganized the company’s engineering organization, with all engineers reporting up through Boeing’s chief engineer.
  • Created a new Product & Services Safety organization, which will review all aspects of product safety and maintain oversight of our Accident Investigation team as well as our safety review boards.
  • Established a formal Design Requirements Program and enhanced our Continued Operational Safety Program.
  • Strengthened partnerships with airline customers and other industry stakeholders to ensure that flight deck designs and general training anticipate the needs of future pilot populations.

Ref: https://www.boeing.com/737-max-updates/ ... -accidents

It's more or less an admission of all the things they did poorly, without directly saying so. They decided they needed a BoD level safety committee. They decided having engineers reporting to program managers was a bad idea. They did not have an independent company wide safety organization. They did not have enough oversight of their accident investigations team (i.e. waiting for the next software release to do an MCAS update was a bad decision, probably made at the project level as opposed to the corporate level). They did not track design requirements very well (presumably this means they took the requirement to not require sim training too seriously and there should have been a way for engineers to challenge the requirement). They realize their cockpit design needs improvement especially as "future pilot populations" enter the cockpit. Same for training.

Time will tell how effective (or ineffective) these measures will be.
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JetBuddy
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:33 pm

According to this FAA document - "changing the horizontal stabilizer trim wire routing installations" is part of the requirement.

Are those the same cables as those near the cockpit that could short circuit? I don't think it is?

On page one:

https://www.faa.gov/foia/electronic_rea ... -035fr.pdf
 
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Revelation
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:59 pm

Dominic Gates / Seattle Times has three articles up in the last eight hours or so, all worth reading:

https://www.seattletimes.com/tag/737-max/
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strfyr51
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:19 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
I suspect many of those parked planes will stay exactly where they are. Between COVID19 and the public's likely unwillingness to fly the plane, only a handful will be back in the air any time soon.


Unless the buyer was buying the model as a replacement for old frames and needs replacement. Air Canada and Icelandair will want a return to service.

since UA.AS.and AA already flew the 737? I think they avoided the problems because they configured the cockpits the same as the -700/ -800/ and the -900 for commonality which had 2 AOA indicators installed and the Pilots Knew the airplanes, These guys and Gals were HARDLY "Rookie-Cookies" and they had a great Maintenance Control group backing them up.
 
strfyr51
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:23 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
I'll personally make every effort to avoid all 737 MAX flights until the aircraft is truly proven safe in service.

well? Ask yourself. Who crashed their Max airplanes? Were they long established carriers? Were they seasoned Pilots? Then? You might well have your reason to fly or to NOT fly said Airline regardless of what model they're flying.
 
ozglobal
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:30 pm

So we are supposed to believe THIS time? How?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Boof02671
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:52 pm

uta999 wrote:
I wonder what condition the tyres & brakes are in? Some MAX’s haven’t moved for up to two years.

The first taxi and take-off roll might be a bit lumpy.

Most airlines have moved them around on a monthly basis
 
BooDog
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:19 pm

Cdydatzigs wrote:
BooDog wrote:
I feel safe, simply because of this: If a single Max crashes in the next year, It'll be the end of Boeing. All reputation gained over the past 100 years will be dead.


If it was determined said crash was related to the design or MCAS, it could mean the end of the MAX, but not the end of Boeing. Especially since everyone has scrutinized and signed off on the airplane this time, so there is no single company to blame.


I disagree. There's a single company to blame. Boeing. Boeing is responsible for the quality of their subcontractors. Automotive companies get blamed all the time for recalls, etc. due to subcontracted parts. There's no logic behind heresy and smeared reputations on the internet. The general public will believe Boeing is dangerous. There will be clickbait articles like "Don't fly Southwest Airlines because they're 100% Boeing" and other crap like that. Boeing is in trouble if a 737 of ANY VARIANT crashes for ANY REASON in the next twelve months.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:27 pm

Dominic Gates / Seattle Times has three articles up in the last eight hours or so, all worth reading:

https://www.seattletimes.com/tag/737-max/


I find the articles to be in very poor taste by tbe Seattle Times. They didn't need three new hit pieces on Boeing on what should be a celebrated day. But that's pretty much what Gates is known for. The fact that they couldn't even keep one of the articles positive shows the bias and that they are not an objective source. International media sources such as BBC have been much better at keeping to the facts and not letting personal grudges get in the way of reporting.
 
airsmiles
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:47 pm

Opus99 wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
I'll personally make every effort to avoid all 737 MAX flights until the aircraft is truly proven safe in service.

And that is when?


I think it’s a fair comment. I could see plenty of passengers giving it a wide berth for 2 or 3 years to see what happens. I know people, including intelligent professional people, who just didn’t see the need to take risk on the 787 after its botched introduction into service. You have to remember that Boeing’s reputation is not what it used to be and once people get that into their head, rightly or wrongly, it’s hard to change that view.
 
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United787
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:49 pm

The timing of this could be excellent if the COVID vaccine works as planned. Just as demand increases, capacity will as well.
 
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Revelation
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:54 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Dominic Gates / Seattle Times has three articles up in the last eight hours or so, all worth reading:

https://www.seattletimes.com/tag/737-max/


I find the articles to be in very poor taste by tbe Seattle Times. They didn't need three new hit pieces on Boeing on what should be a celebrated day. But that's pretty much what Gates is known for. The fact that they couldn't even keep one of the articles positive shows the bias and that they are not an objective source. International media sources such as BBC have been much better at keeping to the facts and not letting personal grudges get in the way of reporting.

Despite being called a fan boy here a lot, I disagree with this take. I don't feel like it's a time for celebration.

The articles are IMO a straight forward telling of the events going back to the creation of the MAX project onward, which I think is an appropriate response to the ungrounding. There still are a lot of unanswered questions on how Boeing and FAA approved such a deeply flawed product, and how they did not ground it after the first crash. Boeing has leaned heavily on the idea that this was one person making an error in judgment, but has never let anyone get access to this one person to figure out why they made such an error or ask if they felt undo pressure while making their unfortunate judgment.

If you have anything other than anecdotal evidence of a personal grudge, please do share.

On the flip side, maybe I'm more optimistic than others about the future. Boeing has put a lot of measures in place to try to prevent such tragic mistakes in the future. I for one hope those measures are successful.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Stitch
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I find the articles to be in very poor taste by tbe Seattle Times. They didn't need three new hit pieces on Boeing on what should be a celebrated day.

Revelation wrote:
I disagree with this take. I don't feel like it's a time for celebration.

The articles are IMO a straight forward telling of the events going back to the creation of the MAX project onward, which I think is an appropriate response to the ungrounding.


I am in agreement with Revelation. I am guessing the "hit piece" is the Q&A article, but frankly, the only "hits" it is dishing out are, IMO, warranted ones against how the actions (and inactions) of both Boeing and the FAA directly contributed to the chain of events that led to two airframes nose-diving into the ground with the loss of all souls aboard.

There has been so much noise and FUD in the 737MAX threads on this forum that I frankly mostly washed my hands of it all and just read selected articles from the Seattle Times and New York Times over the past year-plus as I am a subscriber to both, which gave me a general understanding of what had happened. As such, I found the Q&A article to be a solid, factual laying out of the events.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Dominic Gates / Seattle Times has three articles up in the last eight hours or so, all worth reading:

https://www.seattletimes.com/tag/737-max/


I find the articles to be in very poor taste by tbe Seattle Times. They didn't need three new hit pieces on Boeing on what should be a celebrated day. But that's pretty much what Gates is known for. The fact that they couldn't even keep one of the articles positive shows the bias and that they are not an objective source. International media sources such as BBC have been much better at keeping to the facts and not letting personal grudges get in the way of reporting.

Despite being called a fan boy here a lot, I disagree with this take. I don't feel like it's a time for celebration.

The articles are IMO a straight forward telling of the events going back to the creation of the MAX project onward, which I think is an appropriate response to the ungrounding. There still are a lot of unanswered questions on how Boeing and FAA approved such a deeply flawed product, and how they did not ground it after the first crash. Boeing has leaned heavily on the idea that this was one person making an error in judgment, but has never let anyone get access to this one person to figure out why they made such an error or ask if they felt undo pressure while making their unfortunate judgment.

If you have anything other than anecdotal evidence of a personal grudge, please do share.

On the flip side, maybe I'm more optimistic than others about the future. Boeing has put a lot of measures in place to try to prevent such tragic mistakes in the future. I for one hope those measures are successful.


It's just my opinion that Mr Gates is not an unbiased or objective journalist. I can't recall any article where he has praised Boeing. Even when the A380 program was canceled he spun the article to cast doubt on the Boeing 777X program and claim the cancellation of the A380 was in fact worse news for Boeing. While investigative journalism is crucial in matters such as the Max issues, even the broken clcok is right twice a day. The endless hit pieces from Mr Gates would have the average person thinking that Boeing aircraft were nothing but lawn darts. There's a line between criticism and sensationalism. I prefer sticking to the facts and not endless conjecture. Like I said, international outlets like BBC took a better approach in my opinion.
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:13 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
I'll personally make every effort to avoid all 737 MAX flights until the aircraft is truly proven safe in service.

well? Ask yourself. Who crashed their Max airplanes? Were they long established carriers? Were they seasoned Pilots? Then? You might well have your reason to fly or to NOT fly said Airline regardless of what model they're flying.

Well..Ask yourself. What has been grounded by the authorities for safety issues for 18 months? The Boeing 737 MAX or the airlines?
 
morrisond
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:20 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The only probable way that there are more crashes is if Airlines fail to take the other Major learning from the MAX disasters (and AF447 and Air Asia 8501) into account and adjust their training programs appropriately.

That is - on Average Manual flying skills seem to be severely lacking amongst Airline pilots and in recurrent training they need to be made a much larger part of the training syllabus and practiced when appropriate during normal operations so pilots don't forget how to manually control an aircraft.

There will be some MCAS training - but as far as I'm aware nothing will change in terms of 100-200 Hour wonders finding themselves in the right seat of an Single Aisle jet with very little manual flight experience in adverse conditions.


It didn't take long to dust off the old beaten argument.

While better training is absolutely necessary, it is the bad design which made humanly impossible to recover from adverse condition.


It doesn't make it any less true.

Yes the bad design in all 4 crashes did make it impossible for Human's trained as systems operators to recover - however they are supposed to be trained as pilots for when things go pear shaped.

And I'll leave it at that and agree to disagree.
 
JibberJim
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:27 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
No payments until 2025? How would that help Boeing? That means they're giving away an asset with no financial return for four years. The shareholders would never stand for it.


They're saving the maintenance and storage cash going out the door every day it's sat there at the moment, they gain extra maintenance and parts revenue, and they're not giving away the asset, they're just delaying the receipt of the cash - the actual cash has already been spent so they were financing that delay regardless. It would only be a terrible idea if there was someone who would pay for it in cash today at a better present value.
 
mxaxai
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:31 pm

morrisond wrote:
Yes the bad design in all 4 crashes did make it impossible for Human's trained as systems operators to recover - however they are supposed to be trained as pilots for when things go pear shaped.

And I'll leave it at that and agree to disagree.

A well trained cook is supposed to be able to cut with a blunt knife - however, a well sharpened knife reduces the risk of error and injury massively. This applies to both beginners and experienced operators.

Technology should be designed to be usable with as little skill as necessary. A complex system like an aircraft inherently has plenty of failure modes, there's no need to add any more by bad design.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:39 pm

mxaxai wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Yes the bad design in all 4 crashes did make it impossible for Human's trained as systems operators to recover - however they are supposed to be trained as pilots for when things go pear shaped.

And I'll leave it at that and agree to disagree.

A well trained cook is supposed to be able to cut with a blunt knife - however, a well sharpened knife reduces the risk of error and injury massively. This applies to both beginners and experienced operators.

Technology should be designed to be usable with as little skill as necessary. A complex system like an aircraft inherently has plenty of failure modes, there's no need to add any more by bad design.


The Lion Air crew before the accident flight experienced the same MCAS issue but correctly followed the procedure for runaway trim and the flight landed safely. The Ethiopian crew did not follow the bulletin that Boeing sent out after the Lion Air crash.

Yes it was Boeing's fault for the faulty MCAS design but to say that the crews played no part in the crash is just ignoring the facts. Keep in mind that Indonesia has had many examples of counterfeit pilot licenses and falsification of logbook hours. And Ethiopia is an emerging nation that does not have the same training standards as the US and Canada. You will not find any on the job pilot training in the US or an FO with only 200 hours. Our airline FO's are every bit as capable as the captain.
 
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Revelation
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:54 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's just my opinion that Mr Gates is not an unbiased or objective journalist. I can't recall any article where he has praised Boeing. Even when the A380 program was canceled he spun the article to cast doubt on the Boeing 777X program and claim the cancellation of the A380 was in fact worse news for Boeing. While investigative journalism is crucial in matters such as the Max issues, even the broken clcok is right twice a day. The endless hit pieces from Mr Gates would have the average person thinking that Boeing aircraft were nothing but lawn darts. There's a line between criticism and sensationalism. I prefer sticking to the facts and not endless conjecture. Like I said, international outlets like BBC took a better approach in my opinion.

I'm not sure there's much room to praise Boeing especially with regard to MAX. I think the business decision made sense, and I think the engineers probably dealt with a lot of challenges other than the ones that have drawn attention, but it's pretty clear there were a lot of dubious decisions made with MAX, starting with the safety assessment that said MCAS was not in the catastrophic category. Then we look at the actual MCAS implementation which seemed to have been developed with no understanding that AoA could fail in a stuck position and/or just return random noisy data, and absolutely no one in engineering caught that. No one in design, no one in code review, no one in unit testing. Apparently test pilots did experience multiple activations but did not share that info with engineering. Then we see the test message dump where their chief technical pilot is using "Jedi mind tricks" to persuade customers to *not* do sim training just because it would cause Boeing some discomfort explaining that to other customers. Where do you see an opportunity for praise that Gates missed? 20 months from grounding to recovery probably represents a lot of hard work and a lot of dedication by engineering, but that's about all I can find.

With regard to 777x, it seems a valid point of view to suggest that perhaps it is not the right product for the times. Personally I won't rush to judgment on that, but I don't find it troubling that a journalist would reach such a conclusion.
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Stitch
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:58 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
The Lion Air crew before the accident flight experienced the same MCAS issue but correctly followed the procedure for runaway trim and the flight landed safely. The Ethiopian crew did not follow the bulletin that Boeing sent out after the Lion Air crash.


Frankly that first LionAir 610 crew were more lucky than good. They assumed they had a runaway stabilizer trim and killed power to the stabilizer which killed MCAS and prevented it from continuing to try and put the plane in a nose-down attitude. They didn't know about MCAS or how it operated. The crew the next day didn't make the same assumption and fought the plane all the way to impact, with MCAS activating 26 times. And even that first crew only came across runaway stabilizer trim after trying other procedures without success.

And it is true that the ET302 crew failed to raise the nose prior to cutting off power to the rear stabilizer which kept the stabilizer in the nose-down position and allowed aerodynamic load to lock it into that position so they could not recover (even though they tried by restoring power, but then MCAS kicked in again and started pushing the nose down). And Boeing's instructions on how to deal with MCAS made no mention of how dangerous allowing the aerodynamic loads to get that high could be.

And then there is the fact that "highly trained Western crews" when presented with the same scenario in the simulator usually lost the airframe.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:06 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
According to this FAA document - "changing the horizontal stabilizer trim wire routing installations" is part of the requirement.

Are those the same cables as those near the cockpit that could short circuit? I don't think it is?

On page one:

https://www.faa.gov/foia/electronic_rea ... -035fr.pdf




It is the same wiring and if I recall correctly there where about 5 points from cockpit to tail where the wires needed more spacing.
 
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tomflyBRQ
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:12 pm

From various sources I have read, it is not clear to me how complicated is the task of fixing each plane for new requirements and out of storage. How long does it take to fix/modify one plane? Does it have to be done by Boeing, or can they outsource it to companies involved in B checks / C checks, or to airlines directly? From hundreds of Maxes that have been stored, how many can get operational per month? I am asking about technical side, not discussing airlines and their pilot training needs, which may be another issue.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:15 pm

beechnut wrote:
Meanwhile no news from Transport Canada...


https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-cana ... craft.html

Transport Canada safety experts continue their independent validation process to determine whether to approve the proposed changes to the aircraft. We expect this process to conclude very soon. However, there will be differences between what the FAA has approved today, and what Canada will require for its operators. These differences will include additional procedures on the flight deck and pre-flight, as well as differences in training.

The commercial flight restrictions for the operation of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft in Canadian airspace remain in effect and will not be lifted until the department is fully satisfied that all its safety concerns have been addressed, and that enhanced flight crew procedures and training are in place in Canada.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:16 pm

AA will be the first airline to get the MAX airborne because they put Boeing over a barrel and it will be cheaper to fly that plane than others. They said as much in recent releases. I'm sure UA did something similar.

Boeing and the FAA don't deserve plaudits or "credit." Boeing was allowed to forgo upgrades on safety gear, use outdated instrumentation and processes to make things easier for the airlines and the aircraft cheaper to produce. To top it off, Boeing was allowed to conduct its own safety/validation reviews in place of the FAA.

I'll wind up flying it if I have to but no way will I look to fly it. Aside from the outdated tech and the clearly slap dash way it was designed, the airlines configure the aircraft like a sardine can unless you pay $$ for extra leg room (except WN).

No, most people won't care what they fly as long as they save $2 round trip.
 
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Stitch
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:18 pm

tomflyBRQ wrote:
From various sources I have read, it is not clear to me how complicated is the task of fixing each plane for new requirements and out of storage. How long does it take to fix/modify one plane?


Per https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... -airplanes, the expectation is up to 122 hours to implement the changes:

1 work-hour for FCC OPS installation and verification
1 work-hour for AFM revisions
1 work-hour for MDS installation and verification, INOP marker removal
Up to 79 work-hours for stabilizer wiring changes
40 work-hours for AOA sensor system testing

tomflyBRQ wrote:
Does it have to be done by Boeing, or can they outsource it to companies involved in B checks / C checks, or to airlines directly?


I would imagine any FAA-authorized maintenance depot (including airlines') would be able to handle the work on airframes already delivered. Boeing will likely handle it for airframes currently in storage, but as yet undelivered. And of course Boeing will handle it for all new-builds coming off the FAL.

tomflyBRQ wrote:
From hundreds of Maxes that have been stored, how many can get operational per month?


Boeing has said they believe they can get half the currently-stored fleet ready through the end of 2021, so that would be around 20 frames per month. Note that some of these frames have been getting these fixes already so that would improve the delivery rate.
 
CX747
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:41 pm

Looking forward to seeing it take back to the skies and in revenue service. No idea about COVID but it could be timed to be in full swing when the pent up demand emerges.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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Revelation
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:43 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
AA will be the first airline to get the MAX airborne because they put Boeing over a barrel and it will be cheaper to fly that plane than others. They said as much in recent releases. I'm sure UA did something similar.

AA's CFO recently said (ref: our grounding news thread) that each MAX delivery is strongly cash positive to AA due to Boeing's compensation being paid upon delivery. I realize the grounding has caused them a lot of problems, but still it must be nice to get a check along with each new airplane!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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jscottwomack
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Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:44 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
SouthWest statement.

https://www.swamedia.com/releases/relea ... to-service

They expect that the MAX will go back into service in Q2 2021, because there's a lot of work that needs to be done to the aircraft before they can be used in service and all pilots will need to retake the original MAX training + the additional training. SW will also perform readiness flights without passengers with every single MAX before they are put back into service.


https://www.southwest.com/737MAX/


Shoot. Have a multi city trip on WN in March. Was keeping my fingers crossed it would be flying the public by then.
TWA, Ozark, Braniff, Piedmont, USAir, American, Delta, Frontier, Midwest Express, Western, Eastern, Southwest, Northwest, PanAm, United, Mississippi Valley, Britt, Continental, Trans America, Midway, America West, National, American Trans Air, Sun Country
 
aden23
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 11:12 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:26 pm

Didn’t the FAA already clear the MAX a few years ago?

And how many of the people responsible for causing hundreds of deaths were fired for not doing their jobs correctly?

Because of that level of corruption, nobody is going to trust this plane, and the general public is not as dumb as many of you seem to think.
 
ORDPlanesTrains
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:35 pm

AeroplaneFreak wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
I'll personally make every effort to avoid all 737 MAX flights until the aircraft is truly proven safe in service.


Thanks for telling us, I was worried about what you were going to do.


I have a little experience around this with the DC-10. For a little context, my brother and I were visiting our Aunt and Uncle in San Diego during the grounding. We were scheduled to fly back home either the day the grounding was lifted or the day after (it was 41 years ago and I was 12 at the time, it's a little fuzzy). Since my Uncle was an AA 727 Captain at the time, we were obviously flying AA.

Seeing a DC-10 at the gate next to our 727, I remember making a big deal about how I would NEVER fly on a DC-10, EVER! Unsafe. Too many crashes.

As you can guess, after my Aunt and Uncle left the airport, they discovered a "problem" on our 727 and all 10 of us were moved over to the DC-10 going to ORD and away we went. Granted, as two UM in the late 1970s, we did not have much of a say in what happened, but the point is the same. It's great to say you'll avoid the type, but sometimes you do what you have to do to get where you are going.

Today, my Cousin is a 737 Captain with AA and after actually having flown the MAX many times pre-grounding, would put his family on the unmodified MAX without hesitation.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3959
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Dominic Gates / Seattle Times has three articles up in the last eight hours or so, all worth reading:

https://www.seattletimes.com/tag/737-max/


I find the articles to be in very poor taste by tbe Seattle Times. They didn't need three new hit pieces on Boeing on what should be a celebrated day. But that's pretty much what Gates is known for. The fact that they couldn't even keep one of the articles positive shows the bias and that they are not an objective source. International media sources such as BBC have been much better at keeping to the facts and not letting personal grudges get in the way of reporting.

Despite being called a fan boy here a lot, I disagree with this take. I don't feel like it's a time for celebration.

The articles are IMO a straight forward telling of the events going back to the creation of the MAX project onward, which I think is an appropriate response to the ungrounding. There still are a lot of unanswered questions on how Boeing and FAA approved such a deeply flawed product, and how they did not ground it after the first crash. Boeing has leaned heavily on the idea that this was one person making an error in judgment, but has never let anyone get access to this one person to figure out why they made such an error or ask if they felt undo pressure while making their unfortunate judgment.

If you have anything other than anecdotal evidence of a personal grudge, please do share.

On the flip side, maybe I'm more optimistic than others about the future. Boeing has put a lot of measures in place to try to prevent such tragic mistakes in the future. I for one hope those measures are successful.

I'm inclined to agree with TT. The tone of Seattle Times in general is more than a little histrionic and self-righteous.
 
kiowa
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:00 am

freakyrat wrote:
kiowa wrote:
I have very little faith in the government and do not trust that aircraft.


I've flown on the aircraft several times oin WN and their pilots have thousands of hours experience with the jet. I trust them and the aircraft.



We differ greatly then. I do not like the 737 in general, I avoid WN, and I do not trust the 737 MAX. Also, any pilot flying with an ATP license has "thousands of hours experience" -Except maybe in Pakistan-
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2508
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:07 am

Folks, we need some perspective, take a look at the chart and its supporting data below. The two MAX crashes caused 346 deaths. Meanwhile in the US, and probably similar rates in other countries in transportation accidents tragically dwarfs this number - 22,692 just in the US in 2018, with a similar amount every year. That is a rate of 0.47 deaths per 100MM miles traveled, over 470 times as deadly. Far more likely to die driving the 10 miles to the airport, than the 4,700 mile flight.

The risk of dying because of smoking just dwarfs the risk flying, it is something like all transportation deaths, including the auto carnage noted above is only a few percent of all deaths.

I'm sure there will be many travelers that will avoid the MAX, while puffing down that Marlboro.

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-co ... tion-mode/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Cu/pubhtml
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1134
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:30 am

Asiaflyer wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
I'll personally make every effort to avoid all 737 MAX flights until the aircraft is truly proven safe in service.

well? Ask yourself. Who crashed their Max airplanes? Were they long established carriers? Were they seasoned Pilots? Then? You might well have your reason to fly or to NOT fly said Airline regardless of what model they're flying.

Well..Ask yourself. What has been grounded by the authorities for safety issues for 18 months? The Boeing 737 MAX or the airlines?


The perfect reply. Was about to comment myself but wouldn't have done it as well as you did.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2222
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:33 am

There is honestly no point in arguing with those that do not want to fly the 737MAX. their reasons are extremely valid and thats their personal problem. Those that are willing, go ahead. I am confident in the jet, so i will get on one once i get the chance. Eventually, those who strongly protest against getting on one, will get on one. The flying public will get on it. a lot of them. Give it time. Like i always say, back when American airlines crashed a lot, i used to say i would never get on american airlines because i thought their saftey record was trash. I've flown them twice in the past 5 years and i actually enjoyed it. Like many have said, the general flying public do not care, not necessarily that they are stupid, but when the price is right, they'll get on anything quite frankly. Getting on a MAX is not stupid, especially if you know the steps that have been taking to fix the issues, so shout out to AA for giving tours etc.

Some here swear they are smarter and more learned at aircraft certification than the FAA and EASA combined ! ;)
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1134
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:55 am

Opus99 wrote:
There is honestly no point in arguing with those that do not want to fly the 737MAX. their reasons are extremely valid and thats their personal problem.


Well worded apart from the use of "problem". Just a word, but it comes across as if people acting on their own opinions and beliefs is a bad thing.

Opus99 wrote:
Some here swear they are smarter and more learned at aircraft certification than the FAA and EASA combined ! ;)


With respect, I think many learned folk were surprised by the decisions made by one of those organisations, so it's not that ridiculous a position to hold, even if not wholly accurate.

Fear of flying is widespread and, even if not rational based on safety figures compared with other modes of transport, it is not going to disappear any time soon. For decades our way of learning the news didn't change. My parents would read a morning paper and watch a single evening news bulletin. That was a maximum of twice daily that their window on the world was updated. The first 2 decades of my life were no different. The internet changed that almost overnight and dedicated news channels are still relatively new in many countries. I'm not about to try to predict what impact the Max fiasco will have on passenger bookings or for how long it will last, but I'm not going to assume it will be the same as it always was because the way we receive our information has improved dramatically since the last time a similar situation occurred.

One could argue that the general public's knowledge of aircraft is so limited that just the word Boeing or 737 might make them nervous, whether it was a 787 they were about to fly or an 737 NG, which of course have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Some of aviation's worst issues have been caused by people believing that the way things have always happened must be the way things will always happen. Re-reading some of the comments by the most vocal of contributors here shortly before the MAX was grounded still leaves me with a feeling of disbelief.

I hope the MAX bounces back and is hugely successful, however long that takes. If it doesn't happen, Boeing has no-one to blame outside of their own organisation. Personally I'll likely wait 12 months or so before choosing to fly the MAX if there are other alternatives. Whether that is smart or right doesn't really matter.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1537
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:57 am

I would venture a guess that the huge majority of travelers have no idea what a 737 MAX is. And there will be some that think every 737 is a 737 MAX.
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:17 am

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Yes I am aware that the DC-10 wasn't at fault but we are talking about passenger perceptions)


Huh, it was totally at fault in each accident leading up to the grounding. Poor engineering (rear cargo door and no floor vents), to much autonomy and freedom given to airlines in regards to maintenance procedures.

Lockheed may have had the weaker aircraft saleswise but their control over all aspects of their plane, parts and maintenance requirements were second to none engineering. This made for an aircraft that never had an accident attributed to the plane itself.
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EAARbrat
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:25 am

csavel wrote:
The Turkish crash was not the fault of the DC-10 either, the airline neglected to apply the fixes to the cargo door and had previously filed down the hatches to make it easier to close.


Poor engineering regardless of who is applying the fix is the manufacturers fault which means its the aircrafts fault. If Douglas cared they would have required the changes as would have authorities.
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IPFreely
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:36 am

Asiaflyer wrote:
Well..Ask yourself. What has been grounded by the authorities for safety issues for 18 months? The Boeing 737 MAX or the airlines?


In the case of Lion AIr, you're right. The authorities in Europe did not ground the airline for 18 months. They were banned from European airspace for nine years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/lion-ai ... ion-2013-4
https://web.archive.org/web/20160617132 ... blacklist/
 
Tack
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:07 am

strfyr51 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
I suspect many of those parked planes will stay exactly where they are. Between COVID19 and the public's likely unwillingness to fly the plane, only a handful will be back in the air any time soon.


Unless the buyer was buying the model as a replacement for old frames and needs replacement. Air Canada and Icelandair will want a return to service.


since UA.AS.and AA already flew the 737? I think they avoided the problems because they configured the cockpits the same as the -700/ -800/ and the -900 for commonality which had 2 AOA indicators installed and the Pilots Knew the airplanes, These guys and Gals were HARDLY "Rookie-Cookies" and they had a great Maintenance Control group backing them up.


Exactly. My next door neighbor is a 40 year pilot, 737 Captain at AS. I worked with him there during my long tenure. He has flown DC-8’s at Capitol, MD’s with SI/AS 732’s/734/737-8-9 at AS. He’s told me numerous times that the AS pilot group had a seat at the table for this jet with an emphasis on commonality. He’s since said that just like our MD’s after 261, the pilot group will be very diligent in ensuring a write up is in the log book should any anomaly be found, or even suspected. The safety culture and support at US airlines during the re-introduction of the MAX into the schedule gives me zero concern. I’d fly one tomorrow based on the above.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13976
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:16 am

I won't be getting anywhere NEAR this thing, for at least several years..... but I also recognize that the overwhelming majority of the public, despite what they say to media/pollsters, will have no idea what they're flying on, and thus any expressed objections by them will be irrelevant.

That said, if I could avoid this thing forever, I would. No desire whatsoever to be on one.

Sign me up with the folks who expect a rebranding to simply 737-8/9/10.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2795
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:30 am

T4thH wrote:
Have I not read somewhere few days ago (I do not know where any more), the European commission will agree to unground the MAX for now, but have requested, that a third independent AOA indicator have to be retrofitted in reasonable timeframe?

I will wait till the retrofitting of the MAX will be completed.


Boeing will adapt the 777 synthetic airspeed system to the 737 instead of adding a third AOA sensor.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: FAA ungrounds Boeing 737 MAX

Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:39 am

Give me a MAX 8 any day. For me this was a glaring example of poor crew training and lack of experience rather than the big issue they made over the aircraft. Let's face it other aircraft had design flaws and kept flying. I'm glad it has been given the green light to fly again.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
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