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Boeing757100
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:24 pm

I don't see the market, as there are few frames in the first place that could be converted P2F. And even IF that happens, they'd probably have high hours and pressurization cycles, assuming Air China, Lufthansa, and Korean Air highly utilize the -8i. I think a conversion won't happen for years.
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Antarius
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:39 pm

Noshow wrote:
Sounds like Boeing halted the 747 too early. And now they start to realize it.


On what grounds?
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747classic
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:45 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
I don't see the market, as there are few frames in the first place that could be converted P2F. And even IF that happens, they'd probably have high hours and pressurization cycles, assuming Air China, Lufthansa, and Korean Air highly utilize the -8i. I think a conversion won't happen for years.


These 747-8I frames are 5-10 years old in 2022 and many haven't been operated during the covid pandemie, so we are talking about young aircraft with relative very low hours/cycles.

The first question has to be asked to the 747-8I operating airlines : Do you want to trade-in your 747-8I aircraft and what Boeing type (777-9, 787-10 etc.) do you want to purchase as a replacement ?
If the response is positive, you can start further price negotiations and start the conversation with the possible customers for the converted aircraft.
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Noshow
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:14 pm

On what grounds?


They seem to want to generate more -8 freighters from used aircraft. So more are demanded by the market they seem to think?
 
Antarius
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:13 pm

Noshow wrote:
On what grounds?


They seem to want to generate more -8 freighters from used aircraft. So more are demanded by the market they seem to think?


Who is? The OP asked, but I don't see any customers trying to get more 748Fs right now or anyone trying to convert them.
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amdiesen
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:25 pm

The arguments/optimism used to support a b748bcf program are actually an excellent pitch for the b772LR-BCF.
With Boeing converting ~49 and IAI converting ~31 744s; the concept of converting 59 * 80% of the LR frames, plus above arguments, creates an objective possibility.

However, Korean would commit brain cycles to the conversion program. As they acquire 2/3'rds of Asiana, one of the results will be to acquire Asiana's freighter business problems which include that their seven b744bsdf's are aging out. Logistics and efficiency would lead to Korean carrying the cargo and Asiana maintaining a marketing shell. However, further off-topic, the acquisition part-or-whole does not mean that one acquires the free-will-choice customers.

With Luftansa talking about selling the silverware, one should consider that the airframes will endure duress for a longer duration. Boeing/Airbus need to focus on the crown jewels and retaining the talent that is the most difficult to replace.
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Gbass21
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:36 pm

Very interesting topic, but I would certainly think that an a343F or a346F would be a better idea than a B748I to Freighter. The market of a340 is huge compared to the B748I and for hot and high conditions, the a340 should perform better than an B77W at maximum loads.
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:49 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Noshow wrote:
This is what they ordered the KC-46 for.


No, the USAF ordered the KC-46 for the KC-X program, which was replacement of the KC-135. The KC-Y program is for a larger tanker to replace the KC-10. Personally I'd rather see the 789 get the freighter treatment for this program instead of the 777X


Thank you for reminding me of the 787. I had thought of that program too. I believe that would be the best overall fit. Younger airframe, newer tech, longer life cycle. Question is, which airframe -8, -9 or -10? Or is it a "hybrid" like the P-8?
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Spacepope
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:08 pm

CX747 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Noshow wrote:
This is what they ordered the KC-46 for.


No, the USAF ordered the KC-46 for the KC-X program, which was replacement of the KC-135. The KC-Y program is for a larger tanker to replace the KC-10. Personally I'd rather see the 789 get the freighter treatment for this program instead of the 777X


Thank you for reminding me of the 787. I had thought of that program too. I believe that would be the best overall fit. Younger airframe, newer tech, longer life cycle. Question is, which airframe -8, -9 or -10? Or is it a "hybrid" like the P-8?


I think the -9 will be a hell of a freighter when the day comes. For the USAF, fuselage volume isn't an issue so no need for a -10. I bet they'd like a -9 with a shortened fuselage. The current -8 structure isn't beefy enough, but a -9 with the length of an -8 would be right up their alley.
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jreeves96
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:39 pm

FGITD wrote:
jreeves96 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

It's been awhile since I worked a 747F so my experience may vary, but yes, the pallet buildup usually takes this into account. Some are built to go through the nose, others the SCD.

Pax/belly cargo is usually built, then planned onto a loadsheet. Full freighters tend to be somewhat reversed. You get an idea of what should go where and build specific pallets to those specs. Some airlines have specific rules about loading "soft" cargo closest to the cockpit, keeping DGs aft, etc.

Some of these reasons are also why the a.net adage of nose doors being essential isn't really true for most cargo ops. Personally I always found it to be a bit of a pain


In my 2 1/2 years of being a flying loadmaster, I’ve used the nose door once. And it was for a T-4 with helicopter blades.


Great example. The carrier I worked for actually gathered almost all the cargo operations people in one station when we had wind turbine blades to load. Not because they needed the extra people, but because it was such a rare occurrence that we'd actually get to load something that required the nose door. Management wanted everyone to see it.



Best way to do it. Some stations and airlines will use the nose door everytime for anything. Sometimes it’s easier. I always assumed it was like a 3 man operation but it was just one. I’ve read our manuals on it to try to comprehend what to do but it’s always seeing it better in person.

Also, if you don’t get all 16 locks green when closing the door, good luck. Some aircraft have a little piece that you can crank manually when the locks don’t join but some aircraft don’t. I believe that’s a big reason why we don’t use them as often.
 
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747classic
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:24 pm

jreeves96 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
jreeves96 wrote:

In my 2 1/2 years of being a flying loadmaster, I’ve used the nose door once. And it was for a T-4 with helicopter blades.


Great example. The carrier I worked for actually gathered almost all the cargo operations people in one station when we had wind turbine blades to load. Not because they needed the extra people, but because it was such a rare occurrence that we'd actually get to load something that required the nose door. Management wanted everyone to see it.



Best way to do it. Some stations and airlines will use the nose door everytime for anything. Sometimes it’s easier. I always assumed it was like a 3 man operation but it was just one. I’ve read our manuals on it to try to comprehend what to do but it’s always seeing it better in person.

Also, if you don’t get all 16 locks green when closing the door, good luck. Some aircraft have a little piece that you can crank manually when the locks don’t join but some aircraft don’t. I believe that’s a big reason why we don’t use them as often.


After operating 747F, 747C, 747SF and 747M aircraft with SCD doors or additional nose cargo doors for more than 25 years I can state the following:
The nose door was used only when a speedy loading/unloading time was needed (simultaneous loading via ND and SCD to counter a delay) and/or outsize cargo was loaded. But we (via the company) had to notify the loading company in advance for availability of additional (nose) loading equipment.
When the nose door is hardly used, you could get some issues with the latches, like all systems that are used with low frequency.
If the lifting and latching systems were regulary serviced we experienced very few problems.
According the MEL you may depart with one lock unlocked or even missing, if the other 15 locks are closed and visual checked closed.
Manual latch closing is a nightmare (especially the top ones) , but can be done.
On the 747 classic we had our own expert on board : The F/E.
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:53 am

747classic wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
I don't see the market, as there are few frames in the first place that could be converted P2F. And even IF that happens, they'd probably have high hours and pressurization cycles, assuming Air China, Lufthansa, and Korean Air highly utilize the -8i. I think a conversion won't happen for years.


These 747-8I frames are 5-10 years old in 2022 and many haven't been operated during the covid pandemic, so we are talking about young aircraft with relatively very low hours/cycles.

The first question has to be asked to the 747-8I operating airlines: Do you want to trade-in your 747-8I aircraft and what Boeing type (777-9, 787-10 etc.) do you want to purchase as a replacement?
If the response is positive, you can start further price negotiations and start the conversation with the possible customers for the converted aircraft.



I mean, I think by the time a conversion line starts for the intercontinental, Luthansa, Korean, and Air China would've utilized them a lot, and THEN they'd have high cycles. I don't see the 747-8i conversion line happening before those 3 retire them for 2 reasons. One, the 747-8F exists already (also few -400Fs) and two, the 777X as a freighter or any other large freighter might either be close to entering the market or already in the market.
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Antarius
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:18 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
747classic wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
I don't see the market, as there are few frames in the first place that could be converted P2F. And even IF that happens, they'd probably have high hours and pressurization cycles, assuming Air China, Lufthansa, and Korean Air highly utilize the -8i. I think a conversion won't happen for years.


These 747-8I frames are 5-10 years old in 2022 and many haven't been operated during the covid pandemic, so we are talking about young aircraft with relatively very low hours/cycles.

The first question has to be asked to the 747-8I operating airlines: Do you want to trade-in your 747-8I aircraft and what Boeing type (777-9, 787-10 etc.) do you want to purchase as a replacement?
If the response is positive, you can start further price negotiations and start the conversation with the possible customers for the converted aircraft.



I mean, I think by the time a conversion line starts for the intercontinental, Luthansa, Korean, and Air China would've utilized them a lot, and THEN they'd have high cycles. I don't see the 747-8i conversion line happening before those 3 retire them for 2 reasons. One, the 747-8F exists already (also few -400Fs) and two, the 777X as a freighter or any other large freighter might either be close to entering the market or already in the market.


Also, the a350F would be a likely market entrant by that point as well.
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:17 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
747classic wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
I don't see the market, as there are few frames in the first place that could be converted P2F. And even IF that happens, they'd probably have high hours and pressurization cycles, assuming Air China, Lufthansa, and Korean Air highly utilize the -8i. I think a conversion won't happen for years.


These 747-8I frames are 5-10 years old in 2022 and many haven't been operated during the covid pandemic, so we are talking about young aircraft with relatively very low hours/cycles.

The first question has to be asked to the 747-8I operating airlines: Do you want to trade-in your 747-8I aircraft and what Boeing type (777-9, 787-10 etc.) do you want to purchase as a replacement?
If the response is positive, you can start further price negotiations and start the conversation with the possible customers for the converted aircraft.



I mean, I think by the time a conversion line starts for the intercontinental, Luthansa, Korean, and Air China would've utilized them a lot, and THEN they'd have high cycles. I don't see the 747-8i conversion line happening before those 3 retire them for 2 reasons. One, the 747-8F exists already (also few -400Fs) and two, the 777X as a freighter or any other large freighter might either be close to entering the market or already in the market.

763 conversions are happening with airframes well above 15,000 cycles. These 748s are being used on long haul flights putting on less than 1000 cycles a year. They will have plenty of remaining cycles even years into the future for a viable conversion.
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jreeves96
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:50 am

747classic wrote:
jreeves96 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Great example. The carrier I worked for actually gathered almost all the cargo operations people in one station when we had wind turbine blades to load. Not because they needed the extra people, but because it was such a rare occurrence that we'd actually get to load something that required the nose door. Management wanted everyone to see it.



Best way to do it. Some stations and airlines will use the nose door everytime for anything. Sometimes it’s easier. I always assumed it was like a 3 man operation but it was just one. I’ve read our manuals on it to try to comprehend what to do but it’s always seeing it better in person.

Also, if you don’t get all 16 locks green when closing the door, good luck. Some aircraft have a little piece that you can crank manually when the locks don’t join but some aircraft don’t. I believe that’s a big reason why we don’t use them as often.


After operating 747F, 747C, 747SF and 747M aircraft with SCD doors or additional nose cargo doors for more than 25 years I can state the following:
The nose door was used only when a speedy loading/unloading time was needed (simultaneous loading via ND and SCD to counter a delay) and/or outsize cargo was loaded. But we (via the company) had to notify the loading company in advance for availability of additional (nose) loading equipment.
When the nose door is hardly used, you could get some issues with the latches, like all systems that are used with low frequency.
If the lifting and latching systems were regulary serviced we experienced very few problems.
According the MEL you may depart with one lock unlocked or even missing, if the other 15 locks are closed and visual checked closed.
Manual latch closing is a nightmare (especially the top ones) , but can be done.
On the 747 classic we had our own expert on board : The F/E.


Just goes to show how every company operates differently. I don’t think my company will allow a plane to depart with an unlatched latch. Even if company did, I think the crews would fight it.

I guess it’s different with stations and offline stations. As a loadmaster, we fly in between offline stations for commercial and AMC so the idea of having the SCD and NCD operating simultaneously sounds like a wet dream to me but wouldn’t happen. We’re usually the only one on the ground that can operate the system, besides MX and the few station personal. When it’s just the one of us we obviously do the FMA and AMF for loading and unloading. Even getting two loaders to operate at the same time is a rarity at most places we LM fly into.

But you get all four doors open, or even SCD NCD and a belly team, and operating at the same time... that’s heaven.
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:02 am

amdiesen wrote:
How much would certification cost?
B748i--->p2f?
B772LR --->p2f





Buyers appreciate predictability when when conducting financial analytics on TCO. The GE90, GEnx, CF6-80C2 meet the objectives; the RR Trent XWB will likely meet the criteria. Thus planes powered by these propulsions will be given preference.

Most of the cost would be removing the passenger interior. adding the fire suppression system cargo movement system and the Cargo door. I've heard that's about $1.7M in labor alone the parts I have no idea about and I'm going on what it cost to convert a 747-400 to a freighter.
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:52 am

strfyr51 wrote:
amdiesen wrote:
How much would certification cost?
B748i--->p2f?
B772LR --->p2f





Buyers appreciate predictability when when conducting financial analytics on TCO. The GE90, GEnx, CF6-80C2 meet the objectives; the RR Trent XWB will likely meet the criteria. Thus planes powered by these propulsions will be given preference.

Most of the cost would be removing the passenger interior. adding the fire suppression system cargo movement system and the Cargo door. I've heard that's about $1.7M in labor alone the parts I have no idea about and I'm going on what it cost to convert a 747-400 to a freighter.


There is no fire suppression system installed at the main cargo deck after a P-F conversion, only a fire/smoke detection system.
Main Deck Cargo Compartment Classification : Class E.
After a main deck fire/smoke warning has been received at the flight deck, the SOP is depressurzation, to reduce the oxygen level (oxygen starvation)
The lower cargo hold suppression systems are not changed during a P-F conversion and remain class C.

See : https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2011_q2/3/
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:31 pm

Interesting responses. Thanks all. :-)
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 2:26 am

This is a fascinating topic. Please don't flame the following purely hypothetical (read:naive) idea but:
What if an MRO interested in creating a an inaugural 748 cargo conversion could get a relatively new frame (say like LN 1435) for near to zero cost. How much would the additional cost to convert run? (The cost to deSUD plus all the other conversion stuff summarized by 747classic above).)
I realize this is not reality but I am trying to understand the value proposition by eliminating the noise/issue of feedstock availablity and/or willingness of the three 747-8i users to trade in low use 747-8is to feed into a program. What would the resulting pristine 747-8 converted freighter be worth without a nose door? Is the value less or more than say the two barely used Saudia 748Fs sitting in storage in Jeddah? If the value of such an aircraft is deniable then forget the idea. If there is value then maybe operators could take notice and the business case could be further investigated..
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 2:46 am

The 747-8i will get scraped in a decade or so and the parts will go towards keeping the 747-8F flying beyond 2050. The 747-8F will become highly valuable in a decades time once the AN-124 and 747-400 freighters become older.

With twice as many freighters compared to passengers versions then scraping every passenger 747-8 will provide the perfect number of parts for the freighter 747-8.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 3:26 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The 747-8i will get scraped in a decade or so and the parts will go towards keeping the 747-8F flying beyond 2050. The 747-8F will become highly valuable in a decades time once the AN-124 and 747-400 freighters become older.

With twice as many freighters compared to passengers versions then scraping every passenger 747-8 will provide the perfect number of parts for the freighter 747-8.


My money would be on every available -8i frame getting converted, unless it has literally run out of hours.
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 9:57 am

LTEN11 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
The 747-8i will get scraped in a decade or so and the parts will go towards keeping the 747-8F flying beyond 2050. The 747-8F will become highly valuable in a decades time once the AN-124 and 747-400 freighters become older.

With twice as many freighters compared to passengers versions then scraping every passenger 747-8 will provide the perfect number of parts for the freighter 747-8.


My money would be on every available -8i frame getting converted, unless it has literally run out of hours.


So not worrying about a lack of feedstock? You are saying there will be a 748 P2F program then.

I must admit I do wonder if someone will offer a P2F conversion though by offering to buy up all 748 from LH, KE, CA later in the decade though.
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 10:16 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
The 747-8i will get scraped in a decade or so and the parts will go towards keeping the 747-8F flying beyond 2050. The 747-8F will become highly valuable in a decades time once the AN-124 and 747-400 freighters become older.

With twice as many freighters compared to passengers versions then scraping every passenger 747-8 will provide the perfect number of parts for the freighter 747-8.


My money would be on every available -8i frame getting converted, unless it has literally run out of hours.


So not worrying about a lack of feedstock? You are saying there will be a 748 P2F program then.

I must admit I do wonder if someone will offer a P2F conversion though by offering to buy up all 748 from LH, KE, CA later in the decade though.


I wouldn't be surprised if KE convert theirs to go with their -8F's. The rest I could see going to UPS, Atlas or Kalitta. Realistically there would only be one or two conversion lines and I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing did it themselves.
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 10:46 am

LTEN11 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:

My money would be on every available -8i frame getting converted, unless it has literally run out of hours.


So not worrying about a lack of feedstock? You are saying there will be a 748 P2F program then.

I must admit I do wonder if someone will offer a P2F conversion though by offering to buy up all 748 from LH, KE, CA later in the decade though.


I wouldn't be surprised if KE convert theirs to go with their -8F's. The rest I could see going to UPS, Atlas or Kalitta. Realistically there would only be one or two conversion lines and I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing did it themselves.


Without an STC, nobody is converting any 747-8I's. That is the crux of the matter. The 747-8I will not be able to use the 747-400 STC.
 
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 11:09 am

VSMUT wrote:

Without an STC, nobody is converting any 747-8I's. That is the crux of the matter. The 747-8I will not be able to use the 747-400 STC.


That's correct, but almost all (modified) calculations can be based upon the 744BCF STC and have only to be checked by the FAA, the only new to be "life"demonstated system is the maindeck fire/smoke detection system, only when the SUD will be retained and more tension ties are installed.
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zeke
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 11:58 am

747classic wrote:
That's correct, but almost all (modified) calculations can be based upon the 744BCF STC and have only to be checked by the FAA, the only new to be "life"demonstated system is the maindeck fire/smoke detection system, only when the SUD will be retained and more tension ties are installed.


I dont agree, not a lot of parts similarity between the 748i and 744.

Besides the -8i is something like 5.6 meters longer than the 744, that fuselage mass has got to be a large hit on cargo. One of the BCF problems was the length of the upper deck also, which is even longer on the -8i, which reduces volume for the length it provides.
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 12:23 pm

zeke wrote:
747classic wrote:
That's correct, but almost all (modified) calculations can be based upon the 744BCF STC and have only to be checked by the FAA, the only new to be "life"demonstated system is the maindeck fire/smoke detection system, only when the SUD will be retained and more tension ties are installed.


I dont agree, not a lot of parts similarity between the 748i and 744.

Besides the -8i is something like 5.6 meters longer than the 744, that fuselage mass has got to be a large hit on cargo. One of the BCF problems was the length of the upper deck also, which is even longer on the -8i, which reduces volume for the length it provides.

A 748BCF would still have more volume than a 744BCF despite the longer upper deck. And the 747-8i has a MTOW ~50t higher than the 744 (I don’t believe any of QF’s 744ERs were ever converted) so I wouldn’t expect the increased fuselage mass to have much more of a hit on cargo than the 744BCF.

But I don’t expect to see a 748BCF due to limited stock.
 
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zeke
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 12:49 pm

Polot wrote:
A 748BCF would still have more volume than a 744BCF despite the longer upper deck. And the 747-8i has a MTOW ~50t higher than the 744 (I don’t believe any of QF’s 744ERs were ever converted) so I wouldn’t expect the increased fuselage mass to have much more of a hit on cargo than the 744BCF.


From memory the 744BCF had less payload mass available than the production freighter (about 15 tonnes than a 744F/744ERF), less volume, less range. I think parts of the main deck running loads were lower as well.
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Polot
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 12:52 pm

zeke wrote:
Polot wrote:
A 748BCF would still have more volume than a 744BCF despite the longer upper deck. And the 747-8i has a MTOW ~50t higher than the 744 (I don’t believe any of QF’s 744ERs were ever converted) so I wouldn’t expect the increased fuselage mass to have much more of a hit on cargo than the 744BCF.


From memory the 744BCF had less payload mass available than the production freighter (about 15 tonnes than a 744F/744ERF), less volume, less range. I think parts of the main deck running loads were lower as well.

Well yes, but that is true of all P2F versus dedicated new build freighters. No one is saying (or should expect) a 748P2F will match a 748F in performance.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 1:17 pm

Surprised to see this topic float up again. On the Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) thread 2021, reply number 1221 said something interesting.
Thread- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456521&start=1200

Directly quoting the user
"I was searching the internet for : 747-8 for sale
Found : https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... t-aircraft
Asking price : $95.000.000
Most probably, this must be L/N 1446 - 747-8JA , RC004, serial number 40065, F/F May-30-2012, stored at Basel (BSL) with registration N458BJ.
Remarkable are the airframe notes :
- Brand new 747-8 in factory green configuration.
- Only has 40 hours 18 landings since new.
- Aircraft will be delivered with a 747-400BCF Cargo door installed ??
- Can be converted to a full freighter after the door installation.
- GE Genx-2B Engines

If this adv is true, then this could be the first 747-8I P-F conversion."


This is interesting. However, I don't see the business case for this, as there is no nose door (and that is the reason most airlines utilize the 747-8F or 747-400F factory). Though, it explicitly said "CAN BE CONVERTED TO FULL FREIGHTER AFTER DOOR INSTALLATION" and the hours are low. Time will tell I guess.
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747classic
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 1:32 pm

zeke wrote:
747classic wrote:
That's correct, but almost all (modified) calculations can be based upon the 744BCF STC and have only to be checked by the FAA, the only new to be "life"demonstated system is the maindeck fire/smoke detection system, only when the SUD will be retained and more tension ties are installed.


I dont agree, not a lot of parts similarity between the 748i and 744.

Besides the -8i is something like 5.6 meters longer than the 744, that fuselage mass has got to be a large hit on cargo. One of the BCF problems was the length of the upper deck also, which is even longer on the -8i, which reduces volume for the length it provides.


I was directly involved in the first P2F SUD conversion in the world (747-206(SUD)SF, PH-BUH).
Almost all modifications were exactly calculated and required only checking of the calculation figures by the FAA to obtain the (partly grand-fathered 747-200SF) STC.
After this STC, the 743SF STC was certified (also partly grandfathered) and thereafter the 744BCF (also partly grandfathered)
The only real issue was the different air circulation at the 742(SUD) cargo main deck , caused by the large extra volume of the empty upperdeck (aft part of upperdeck floor removed and replaced by higher installed tension ties), causing a delayed activation of the main deck fire/smoke warning system. This was finally solved during several test flights by installing different shaped airco outlets.
Note : complete main deck cargo fire resistant lining was not required at that time (1997)

The 747-8I has the fwd fuselage plug (160 inch) installed aft of the upper deck door, so the upperdek floor will be removed just aft of the upperdek doors by a P2F conversion, so conseg. the 747-8 extra stretch has no effect on the number of 8 ft (limited) fwd maindeck pallet positions, compared to the 744BCF. Only more (elevated) tension ties need to be installed to create (below the enlarged upperdeck) more 10 ft high pallet positions. Also a future 748BCF STC will be (partly grandfathered) and based at the 744BCF STC.

At the both the 744BCF and 748BCF the (empty) stretched upperdeck structure is (will be) totally covered by the fire-resistant lining, installed at the main cargo deck, so only marginal airco flow differences may be expected.
Last edited by 747classic on Thu May 13, 2021 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 1:41 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Noshow wrote:
This is what they ordered the KC-46 for.


No, the USAF ordered the KC-46 for the KC-X program, which was replacement of the KC-135. The KC-Y program is for a larger tanker to replace the KC-10. Personally I'd rather see the 789 get the freighter treatment for this program instead of the 777X


Boeing said the 767 was a better airframe for military programs. You can't just cut holes in a CFRP fuselage to mount antennas and other military systems on the outside of the fuselage the way one can with aluminum.
 
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Polot
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 1:44 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Noshow wrote:
This is what they ordered the KC-46 for.


No, the USAF ordered the KC-46 for the KC-X program, which was replacement of the KC-135. The KC-Y program is for a larger tanker to replace the KC-10. Personally I'd rather see the 789 get the freighter treatment for this program instead of the 777X


Boeing said the 767 was a better airframe for military programs. You can't just cut holes in a CFRP fuselage to mount antennas and other military systems on the outside of the fuselage the way one can with aluminum.

OEMs say a lot of things and then mysteriously make it work in the future. Obviously at the time Boeing had no spare 787 capacity to develop and supply a tanker version and would push and possibly exaggerate 767 advantages.
 
Opus99
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Thu May 13, 2021 2:34 pm

Polot wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

No, the USAF ordered the KC-46 for the KC-X program, which was replacement of the KC-135. The KC-Y program is for a larger tanker to replace the KC-10. Personally I'd rather see the 789 get the freighter treatment for this program instead of the 777X


Boeing said the 767 was a better airframe for military programs. You can't just cut holes in a CFRP fuselage to mount antennas and other military systems on the outside of the fuselage the way one can with aluminum.

OEMs say a lot of things and then mysteriously make it work in the future. Obviously at the time Boeing had no spare 787 capacity to develop and supply a tanker version and would push and possibly exaggerate 767 advantages.

First and foremost I think it was cheaper for them to do, so they would’ve thought they were maximising the money from that deal. If they really wanted to cut that 787 frame, they’ll do it. OEMs always hide what they can do and then 1 years down the line all of a sudden they can now do it.
 
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zeke
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 1:14 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Boeing said the 767 was a better airframe for military programs. You can't just cut holes in a CFRP fuselage to mount antennas and other military systems on the outside of the fuselage the way one can with aluminum.


The A350 side panels are made without door and window openings etc, and they cut them out with a robotically controlled water jet.
Last edited by zeke on Fri May 14, 2021 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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zeke
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 1:23 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
This is interesting. However, I don't see the business case for this, as there is no nose door (and that is the reason most airlines utilize the 747-8F or 747-400F factory). Though, it explicitly said "CAN BE CONVERTED TO FULL FREIGHTER AFTER DOOR INSTALLATION" and the hours are low. Time will tell I guess.


Who in their right mind would store a 2012 747-8i in BSL for the best part of 10 years. It would be a corrosion pit with useless engines. Should have been stored in a dry and warm environment, not cold and damp.
Last edited by zeke on Fri May 14, 2021 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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zeke
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 1:31 am

747classic wrote:
The 747-8I has the fwd fuselage plug (160 inch) installed aft of the upper deck door, so the upperdek floor will be removed just aft of the upperdek doors by a P2F conversion, so conseg. the 747-8 extra stretch has no effect on the number of 8 ft (limited) fwd maindeck pallet positions, compared to the 744BCF.


I am not sure about that, the 8i plug goes in where the floor remained in the BCF

Image

Image
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BHRN
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 2:26 am

B777LRF wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
The 747 is most efficient when loaded with the maximum number of AMA containers, or pallets built to the same contour. Reducing the number of positions which can accept AMA reduces the efficiency of the aircraft.


AMA are used at the positions with reduced height (aka Q6 positions) which are under the SUD. For the majority of positions, AMD (Q7) are those which maximizes the space available (hence most efficient).
 
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747classic
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 5:19 am

zeke wrote:
747classic wrote:
The 747-8I has the fwd fuselage plug (160 inch) installed aft of the upper deck door, so the upperdek floor will be removed just aft of the upperdek doors by a P2F conversion, so conseg. the 747-8 extra stretch has no effect on the number of 8 ft (limited) fwd maindeck pallet positions, compared to the 744BCF.


I am not sure about that, the 8i plug goes in where the floor remained in the BCF

Image

Image


The upperdeck floor is removed approx 2 meters aft of the upper deck doors (sta 780), thereafter the flight control cables, that were located in the removed part of upper deck floor, are slowly rising to the top of the normal fuselage diameter (between sta 780 and sta 880) to give room for the 10 ft main deck pallets. At sta 902 (just aft of sta 880) a restraint strap is installed, to guard against wrongly loaded higher than 8 ft maindeck cargo.(to avoid damaging the control cables and upper cargo lining)
Because the fwd 160 inch 747-8I plug is installed aft of the upperdeck doors, a future 748BCF will provide for an extra 160 inch of 10ft high main deck space and the same number of 8 ft pallet positions than at the 744BCF.

For add info about the 747 flight control cables : viewtopic.php?t=725645
For add info about the BCF upperdeck see : viewtopic.php?t=1455079
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zeke
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 5:52 am

747classic wrote:

The upperdeck floor is removed approx 2 meters aft of the upper deck doors (sta 780), thereafter the flight control cables, that were located in the removed part of upper deck floor, are slowly rising to the top of the normal fuselage diameter (between sta 780 and sta 880) to give room for the 10 ft main deck pallets. At sta 902 (just aft of sta 880) a restraint strap is installed, to guard against wrongly loaded higher than 8 ft maindeck cargo.(to avoid damaging the control cables and upper cargo lining)
Because the fwd 160 inch 747-8I plug is installed aft of the upperdeck doors, a future 748BCF will provide for an extra 160 inch of 10ft high main deck space and the same number of 8 ft pallet positions than at the 744BCF.

For add info about the 747 flight control cables : viewtopic.php?t=725645
For add info about the BCF upperdeck see : viewtopic.php?t=1455079


That is not saying anything different to what I posted, 10’ high pallets cannot be loaded forward of the last upper deck window STA880, the restrain strap is at STA902. The 748i plug is between the upper deck door and the last window, so it would be limited to 8’ pallets.

The photos in the 744BCF thread you linked had me questioning myself as the cockpit stairs were the wrong orientation, until I opened the full photo where it said it was a 743BCF not a 744BCF.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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747classic
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 9:18 am

I posted the 743SF pictures, because only at that type you can observe the actual P2F modifications (removing of the upperdeck floor and installation of elevated tension ties) clearly.
At the 744BCF the mods are not visible due the installed upper fire resistant lining.
The 744BCF is identical modified as the 743SF, only the P2F has not been certified as a STC , but as a new 747 subtype in the amended 747 type certificate, like all other -BCF's.

Note : the two 742(SUD)SF aircraft had also a 744F flight deck entrance stairs installed during the P2F conversion plus a 744F main deck lay-out, allowing for one more 8ft high pallet position below the upperdeck structure, identical to a factory built 744F aircraft.
See differences between 747 freighters : http://www.ialcargo.com/specs/b747.pdf
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Boeing757100
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 1:21 pm

zeke wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
This is interesting. However, I don't see the business case for this, as there is no nose door (and that is the reason most airlines utilize the 747-8F or 747-400F factory). Though, it explicitly said "CAN BE CONVERTED TO FULL FREIGHTER AFTER DOOR INSTALLATION" and the hours are low. Time will tell I guess.


Who in their right mind would store a 2012 747-8i in BSL for the best part of 10 years. It would be a corrosion pit with useless engines. Should have been stored in a dry and warm environment, not cold and damp.




Oh yeah, good point. Surprised I didn't think of it. How come it was only stored in BSL rather than VCV or Pinal Airpark?
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 3:12 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
This is interesting. However, I don't see the business case for this, as there is no nose door (and that is the reason most airlines utilize the 747-8F or 747-400F factory). Though, it explicitly said "CAN BE CONVERTED TO FULL FREIGHTER AFTER DOOR INSTALLATION" and the hours are low. Time will tell I guess.


Who in their right mind would store a 2012 747-8i in BSL for the best part of 10 years. It would be a corrosion pit with useless engines. Should have been stored in a dry and warm environment, not cold and damp.




Oh yeah, good point. Surprised I didn't think of it. How come it was only stored in BSL rather than VCV or Pinal Airpark?


The aircraft was stored inside a hangar at BSL for most of the time, sometimes spotted outside, for (tyre) movement, APU run, etc. ?
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Boeing757100
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 3:26 pm

747classic wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
zeke wrote:

Who in their right mind would store a 2012 747-8i in BSL for the best part of 10 years. It would be a corrosion pit with useless engines. Should have been stored in a dry and warm environment, not cold and damp.




Oh yeah, good point. Surprised I didn't think of it. How come it was only stored in BSL rather than VCV or Pinal Airpark?


The aircraft was stored inside a hangar at BSL for most of the time, sometimes spotted outside, for (tyre) movement, APU run, etc. ?


How come it had to do all those runs if it was never being readied for service and stayed at a hangar for the whole 7 years? Usually if an airliner is being pulled out of the desert for service, then it does these checks and tests, from what I heard. Is there something I have wrong. Do planes sitting in the desert have to go through checks even if they are not going back to service?
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Polot
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 3:34 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
747classic wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:



Oh yeah, good point. Surprised I didn't think of it. How come it was only stored in BSL rather than VCV or Pinal Airpark?


The aircraft was stored inside a hangar at BSL for most of the time, sometimes spotted outside, for (tyre) movement, APU run, etc. ?


How come it had to do all those runs if it was never being readied for service and stayed at a hangar for the whole 7 years? Usually if an airliner is being pulled out of the desert for service, then it does these checks and tests, from what I heard. Is there something I have wrong. Do planes sitting in the desert have to go through checks even if they are not going back to service?

The plane was suppose to be a BBJ for Saudi Arabia. That is why is it in BSL in the first place- to get its VIP interior. Shortly before delivery, however, the prince the plane was intended for died, and Saudi Arabia didn’t need the frame anymore (still took delivery of it from Boeing). So Saudi Arabia cancelled the VIP outfitting and has been trying to find a buyer ever since. It’s been doing those runs to remain airworthy for potential buyers.
 
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zeke
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 4:17 pm

Polot wrote:
The plane was suppose to be a BBJ for Saudi Arabia. That is why is it in BSL in the first place- to get its VIP interior. Shortly before delivery, however, the prince the plane was intended for died, and Saudi Arabia didn’t need the frame anymore (still took delivery of it from Boeing). So Saudi Arabia cancelled the VIP outfitting and has been trying to find a buyer ever since. It’s been doing those runs to remain airworthy for potential buyers.


Essentially it is being sold for the face scrap value, pull the engines, APU, landing gear, flight controls, and avionics should recoup 95 million without the cost of scrapping.
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ILNFlyer
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 4:45 pm

I really dont see much need for it with the 777 p2f coming down the pike.
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 8:18 pm

Polot wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
747classic wrote:

The aircraft was stored inside a hangar at BSL for most of the time, sometimes spotted outside, for (tyre) movement, APU run, etc. ?


How come it had to do all those runs if it was never being readied for service and stayed at a hangar for the whole 7 years? Usually if an airliner is being pulled out of the desert for service, then it does these checks and tests, from what I heard. Is there something I have wrong. Do planes sitting in the desert have to go through checks even if they are not going back to service?


The plane was suppose to be a BBJ for Saudi Arabia. That is why is it in BSL in the first place- to get its VIP interior. Shortly before delivery, however, the prince the plane was intended for died, and Saudi Arabia didn’t need the frame anymore (still took delivery of it from Boeing). So Saudi Arabia cancelled the VIP outfitting and has been trying to find a buyer ever since. It’s been doing those runs to remain airworthy for potential buyers.


The long passage of time leads me to conclude that a 747-8 VIP BJ won't be in LN 1446's future any longer. The recent mysterious advertisement purporting a 95M ask for LN 1446 inelegantly coupled with a possible freight conversion reference may be the new side sales pitch to move it. Maybe I am wrong and am waiting to see if LN 1435 (old LH NTU) goes to a BJ/VIP use or some new out of the box freighter modification. We also don't know if Boeing sold LN 1435 for much more or much less than 95M. If much less then anything is possible? Maybe the end of the Queen's production convinced some operators that its best to move quickly to convert as many 747-8is as possible sooner than later and not wait as was done in the past when new production was still occuring?
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Fri May 14, 2021 9:53 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
Polot wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:

How come it had to do all those runs if it was never being readied for service and stayed at a hangar for the whole 7 years? Usually if an airliner is being pulled out of the desert for service, then it does these checks and tests, from what I heard. Is there something I have wrong. Do planes sitting in the desert have to go through checks even if they are not going back to service?


The plane was suppose to be a BBJ for Saudi Arabia. That is why is it in BSL in the first place- to get its VIP interior. Shortly before delivery, however, the prince the plane was intended for died, and Saudi Arabia didn’t need the frame anymore (still took delivery of it from Boeing). So Saudi Arabia cancelled the VIP outfitting and has been trying to find a buyer ever since. It’s been doing those runs to remain airworthy for potential buyers.


The long passage of time leads me to conclude that a 747-8 VIP BJ won't be in LN 1446's future any longer. The recent mysterious advertisement purporting a 95M ask for LN 1446 inelegantly coupled with a possible freight conversion reference may be the new side sales pitch to move it. Maybe I am wrong and am waiting to see if LN 1435 (old LH NTU) goes to a BJ/VIP use or some new out of the box freighter modification. We also don't know if Boeing sold LN 1435 for much more or much less than 95M. If much less then anything is possible? Maybe the end of the Queen's production convinced some operators that its best to move quickly to convert as many 747-8is as possible sooner than later and not wait as was done in the past when new production was still occuring?



Except for LN 1435 and 1446, there really are not any 747-8is/BBJ for conversion. By the time LH, KE, and Air China retire theirs, I assume they would be highly utilized and not enough life in them to be converted.
Going to ATL airport in 2019 is like being in 2013
Going to ATL airport in 2010 is like being in 2000
Going to ATL airport in 1998 is like being in 1988
Going to ATL airport in 2035 is like watching paint dry
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Question: 747-8 to Freighter easy conversion possible?

Sat May 15, 2021 1:58 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
Polot wrote:

The plane was suppose to be a BBJ for Saudi Arabia. That is why is it in BSL in the first place- to get its VIP interior. Shortly before delivery, however, the prince the plane was intended for died, and Saudi Arabia didn’t need the frame anymore (still took delivery of it from Boeing). So Saudi Arabia cancelled the VIP outfitting and has been trying to find a buyer ever since. It’s been doing those runs to remain airworthy for potential buyers.


The long passage of time leads me to conclude that a 747-8 VIP BJ won't be in LN 1446's future any longer. The recent mysterious advertisement purporting a 95M ask for LN 1446 inelegantly coupled with a possible freight conversion reference may be the new side sales pitch to move it. Maybe I am wrong and am waiting to see if LN 1435 (old LH NTU) goes to a BJ/VIP use or some new out of the box freighter modification. We also don't know if Boeing sold LN 1435 for much more or much less than 95M. If much less then anything is possible? Maybe the end of the Queen's production convinced some operators that its best to move quickly to convert as many 747-8is as possible sooner than later and not wait as was done in the past when new production was still occuring?



Except for LN 1435 and 1446, there really are not any 747-8is/BBJ for conversion. By the time LH, KE, and Air China retire theirs, I assume they would be highly utilized and not enough life in them to be converted.


LH do tend to fly their 747s for 23/24 years with high utilisation at which point there aren’t enough hours left for F conversion, atleast none of their 744s were converted.

KE and CA converted plenty of their own 747s but weather anyone would be willing to do it for a Max of 17 frames.

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