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Ishrion
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Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:07 pm

Alaska has just announced it will lease 13 new "Boeing 737-9 MAXs" from ALC. These 13 will be delivered from the fourth quarter 2021 through 2022.

Alaska will also sell 10 A320s to ALC "but will lease the A320s back from ALC for a short period of time after the transaction closes."

https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2020-11- ... X-aircraft
 
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Polot
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:25 pm

The 10 A320s are the last owned A320s in the fleet (all the others were already leased, as are the A321neos). Some background info into this deal:

https://leehamnews.com/2020/10/09/alask ... bus-fleet/
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:03 pm

It makes a lot of sense for Alaska to work out a deal like that with the lessor. Alaska gets closer to fleet simplification, while the lessor finds homes for 737-9s in exchange for A320s that are probably easier to market given the massive number of A320 operators.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:06 pm

Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:11 pm

Those A320 are so damn young...
 
32andBelow
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.

Are they even going to have to make payments on these planes? They are basically doing a swap
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:05 pm

Not at all surprising. AS wants to axe the entire Airbus fleet and simply back around the 737. Some press coverage suggests the A321s will stay (10 frames) but over time and rather quickly, they will just become a further operational complexity and an expense. I see the A321 at AS being sunset at AS as well, though perhaps through a different transaction.
Last edited by Cointrin330 on Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:08 pm

Wow... Just flew on a 320 yesterday and I seriously like the 320 over their 737. Oh well.... Anyone know if Alaska plans to keep their 321's? That is one of my faves at Alaska.
 
Antarius
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:37 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.


Are they spending money though for sure? Lessors might find it easier to rehome an a320 than a MAX now, so it could be a win-win move for both parties.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:18 pm

Wow... Are all of AS's incoming MAX aircraft the -9 variant? I realize the majority of AS's 737 fleet is 178 seat 737-900s (12) and 737-900ERs (79); however, there are still 11 124 seat 737-700s and 61 159 seat 737-800s in the fleet mix today.

With the A319s already all gone and the remaining A320s clearly on their way out, is AS simply "optimizing" its mainline fleet with large 150+ seat 737s (and perhaps a few 190 seat A321neos for key transcon routes)? These are pretty big planes when we are talking about AS markets like BOI, FAT, GEG, MKE, OMA, RNO and SBA...unless operations to those places should rely heavily if not exclusively on regional partner E-175s?
 
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keesje
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:45 pm

Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!

Image
 
gmcc
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:47 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Wow... Are all of AS's incoming MAX aircraft the -9 variant? I realize the majority of AS's 737 fleet is 178 seat 737-900s (12) and 737-900ERs (79); however, there are still 11 124 seat 737-700s and 61 159 seat 737-800s in the fleet mix today.

With the A319s already all gone and the remaining A320s clearly on their way out, is AS simply "optimizing" its mainline fleet with large 150+ seat 737s (and perhaps a few 190 seat A321neos for key transcon routes)? These are pretty big planes when we are talking about AS markets like BOI, FAT, GEG, MKE, OMA, RNO and SBA...unless operations to those places should rely heavily if not exclusively on regional partner E-175s?

All maxs have been converted to- 9. On the investor calls they have been pretty clear that the 319s and 320s don't give them anything they didn't already get from currently owned aircraft. Once the 700s and 800s start to age out the gap from 76 to 150 is pretty big. Since QX does have 30 more 175 options that could fill some of the gap with increased frequency but that won't cover all markets. Only choices for something in between would be either the e190 probably operated by QX or the A220 probably operated by AS. AS management will probably go with the option that ticks off the greatest number of employees.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:53 pm

keesje wrote:
Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!


Except Alaska leases the A321s from GECAS and they have LEAP engines, not the PW. Further, DL ordered ACF, Alaska's are not. So, not sure everyone is happy.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:31 pm

gmcc wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Wow... Are all of AS's incoming MAX aircraft the -9 variant? I realize the majority of AS's 737 fleet is 178 seat 737-900s (12) and 737-900ERs (79); however, there are still 11 124 seat 737-700s and 61 159 seat 737-800s in the fleet mix today.

With the A319s already all gone and the remaining A320s clearly on their way out, is AS simply "optimizing" its mainline fleet with large 150+ seat 737s (and perhaps a few 190 seat A321neos for key transcon routes)? These are pretty big planes when we are talking about AS markets like BOI, FAT, GEG, MKE, OMA, RNO and SBA...unless operations to those places should rely heavily if not exclusively on regional partner E-175s?

All maxs have been converted to- 9. On the investor calls they have been pretty clear that the 319s and 320s don't give them anything they didn't already get from currently owned aircraft. Once the 700s and 800s start to age out the gap from 76 to 150 is pretty big. Since QX does have 30 more 175 options that could fill some of the gap with increased frequency but that won't cover all markets. Only choices for something in between would be either the e190 probably operated by QX or the A220 probably operated by AS. AS management will probably go with the option that ticks off the greatest number of employees.

A220 would totally be at horizon. Why would they run it at mainline? Also why don’t they get some new EMBs? They don’t have scope
 
SXDFC
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:18 pm

Someone mentioned in one of the posts that AS is happy with the A321neo. What would they likely do with the A320neos they have on order? Would they convert them over to the A321neo in the ACX configuration?
 
CX747
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:26 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!


Except Alaska leases the A321s from GECAS and they have LEAP engines, not the PW. Further, DL ordered ACF, Alaska's are not. So, not sure everyone is happy.


Also, DL's CEO is reporting to be interested in buying 737s now, with a ton of A321s on "deferrment". So, maybe just the 737s will be happy to leave the Mohave for AS and DL! Swapping places with desert bound A321s!!!
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:40 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.


I think you are wrong. From what I understand, Alaska is selling planes, which will raise capital before leasing them and leasing 737-9s. Sale - leaseback transactions increase the current cash on hand for the airline. This one is a bit unique since it is a sale - leaseback - swap.
 
777luver
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:09 pm

CX747 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!


Except Alaska leases the A321s from GECAS and they have LEAP engines, not the PW. Further, DL ordered ACF, Alaska's are not. So, not sure everyone is happy.


Also, DL's CEO is reporting to be interested in buying 737s now, with a ton of A321s on "deferrment". So, maybe just the 737s will be happy to leave the Mohave for AS and DL! Swapping places with desert bound A321s!!!


Proof of this? This fact of DL’s CEO appearing interested is incorrect. He simply stated he was talking to Boeing about all things including MAX. Unless there’s something I don’t j Jw
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Alaska Air to Lease 13 New 737-9 MAX Aircraft

Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:19 pm

I predicted the Airbus would be leaving once the 737 Max returned to the sky. It makes sense. Alaska just isn't big enough to support two fleet types. And the rumors I heard were that VX was paying some pretty high lease rates on the Airbus fleet.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:22 pm

keesje wrote:
Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!

Image


Nope. Delta isn't even taking their own planes they have on order.
 
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c933103
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:37 pm

Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.


Are they spending money though for sure? Lessors might find it easier to rehome an a320 than a MAX now, so it could be a win-win move for both parties.

Max 9 are larger than 320, more fuel efficient, newer built, and they're also getting more MAX than the number of 320 they're releasing. I don't think the MAX9 is THAT unattractive that it will be 30% cheaper than a used smaller plane of older generation.
Also, aren't they leasing instead of buying those MAX9? It should allow them to have some more cash on hand in the same effect as sell-and-lease-back I guess?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:44 pm

c933103 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.


Are they spending money though for sure? Lessors might find it easier to rehome an a320 than a MAX now, so it could be a win-win move for both parties.

Max 9 are larger than 320, more fuel efficient, newer built, and they're also getting more MAX than the number of 320 they're releasing. I don't think the MAX9 is THAT unattractive that it will be 30% cheaper than a used smaller plane of older generation.
Also, aren't they leasing instead of buying those MAX9? It should allow them to have some more cash on hand in the same effect as sell-and-lease-back I guess?


That's my conclusion - its a variation of a sale-lease(back) transaction. AS gets cash for their newish A320s and agrees to lease for a short period of time. AS then also gets some presumably cheap 737MAX9s that are consistent with AS's fleet plan. Those 737 payments are probably less than debt service on the A320s bought at the peak.
 
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c933103
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:52 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Are they spending money though for sure? Lessors might find it easier to rehome an a320 than a MAX now, so it could be a win-win move for both parties.

Max 9 are larger than 320, more fuel efficient, newer built, and they're also getting more MAX than the number of 320 they're releasing. I don't think the MAX9 is THAT unattractive that it will be 30% cheaper than a used smaller plane of older generation.
Also, aren't they leasing instead of buying those MAX9? It should allow them to have some more cash on hand in the same effect as sell-and-lease-back I guess?


That's my conclusion - its a variation of a sale-lease(back) transaction. AS gets cash for their newish A320s and agrees to lease for a short period of time. AS then also gets some presumably cheap 737MAX9s that are consistent with AS's fleet plan. Those 737 payments are probably less than debt service on the A320s bought at the peak.

According to the thread those 737 are also going to be leased instead of paying the full price of them during acquisition
 
Antarius
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:08 am

c933103 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.


Are they spending money though for sure? Lessors might find it easier to rehome an a320 than a MAX now, so it could be a win-win move for both parties.

Max 9 are larger than 320, more fuel efficient, newer built, and they're also getting more MAX than the number of 320 they're releasing. I don't think the MAX9 is THAT unattractive that it will be 30% cheaper than a used smaller plane of older generation.
Also, aren't they leasing instead of buying those MAX9? It should allow them to have some more cash on hand in the same effect as sell-and-lease-back I guess?


good point. I was thinking it was the neos that they were swapping (which they aren't, I just got tangled in my head)

There are a lot of white tail 737 MAXs right now, so I'm sure the pricing is quite favorable for AS.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:36 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for Alaska to work out a deal like that with the lessor. Alaska gets closer to fleet simplification, while the lessor finds homes for 737-9s in exchange for A320s that are probably easier to market given the massive number of A320 operators.


The Leeham.net article mentioned it was easier to remarket (so re-lease) a 737 than an A320 because of the "cargo appetite" for the 737 in the market. I am presuming they are speaking of passenger to freighter conversions, of which the 737-800 seems to be a popular model for such conversions (at least compared to the A320-200).

So lessors seem to be able to place 737s easier than A320s and as such they:

a) don't have 737s available to lease to Alaska due to existing customer demand;
b) are not interested in Alaska's A320s because of the difficulty in finding a new customer.

And therefore did not show real interest in Alaska's offer to swap A320 leases for 737 leases.
Last edited by Stitch on Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:51 am

Leased from the ALC order book, or a sale- leaseback for their first 13 7M9s?
 
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Polot
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:19 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Leased from the ALC order book, or a sale- leaseback for their first 13 7M9s?

As stated in the PR, the leased 7M9s are in addition to the ones AS has on order (first of which is due March 2021).
 
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RWRCAS
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:19 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Leased from the ALC order book, or a sale- leaseback for their first 13 7M9s?


The 13 aircraft are from the ALC order book in addition to the aircraft Alaska has on order from Boeing. The sale-leaseback is for the 10 owned Airbus A320s which will be sold to ALC and only be least back for a short time following the sale, my guess until they start receiving the MAX replacement aircraft.
 
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RWRCAS
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:24 am

Polot wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Leased from the ALC order book, or a sale- leaseback for their first 13 7M9s?

As stated in the PR, the leased 7M9s are in addition to the ones AS has on order (first of which is due March 2021).


The first MAX aircraft from Boeing is due in January and is scheduled to go into service in March. The first leased MAX is due in the forth quarter of 2021.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:26 am

keesje wrote:
Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!

Image

Delta just deferred new planes from Airbus, why would they buy used ones that need a million dollars to reconfigure?

You all need to stop with Delta buying this and that.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:30 am

Are any of the VX pilots sticking around after A320 series retirement? From reading the airline pilot central boards it seems a lot of Airbus pilots say they'll never go to the Boeing. Is there any truth to that or are they just posturing?
 
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Polot
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:36 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Are any of the VX pilots sticking around after A320 series retirement? From reading the airline pilot central boards it seems a lot of Airbus pilots say they'll never go to the Boeing. Is there any truth to that or are they just posturing?

Most are just posturing on the internet. With the current state of the industry I doubt many are going to leave and give up their seniority and paycheck. Most major airlines are not exactly on a hiring spree when it comes to pilots at the moment.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:42 am

Well good for AS fleet simplification but why would any airline buy slightly used A321 from AS? Unless they are given away for free you can get brand new A321 from Airbus and not pay for all the interior replacement.
 
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452QX
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:12 am

PHLspecial wrote:
Well good for AS fleet simplification but why would any airline buy slightly used A321 from AS? Unless they are given away for free you can get brand new A321 from Airbus and not pay for all the interior replacement.


You would also be waiting at least 5-7 years for new build A321Ns without pulling some serious strings with airbus. The AS 321neos are still relatively low time frames early on in their lifecycle with quite a lot of value left in them. Even adding the cost of new interiors on all 10 probably wouldn’t offset the advantage of getting the frames early
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:21 am

452QX wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
Well good for AS fleet simplification but why would any airline buy slightly used A321 from AS? Unless they are given away for free you can get brand new A321 from Airbus and not pay for all the interior replacement.


You would also be waiting at least 5-7 years for new build A321Ns without pulling some serious strings with airbus. The AS 321neos are still relatively low time frames early on in their lifecycle with quite a lot of value left in them. Even adding the cost of new interiors on all 10 probably wouldn’t offset the advantage of getting the frames early


Agreed. AS will have no problem finding a new home for the A321neo. They are in very high demand.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:13 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
Wow... Are all of AS's incoming MAX aircraft the -9 variant? I realize the majority of AS's 737 fleet is 178 seat 737-900s (12) and 737-900ERs (79); however, there are still 11 124 seat 737-700s and 61 159 seat 737-800s in the fleet mix today.

With the A319s already all gone and the remaining A320s clearly on their way out, is AS simply "optimizing" its mainline fleet with large 150+ seat 737s (and perhaps a few 190 seat A321neos for key transcon routes)? These are pretty big planes when we are talking about AS markets like BOI, FAT, GEG, MKE, OMA, RNO and SBA...unless operations to those places should rely heavily if not exclusively on regional partner E-175s?


I'm pretty sure the 737-9 has a lower fuel burn than the A320, with more seats. While it might be a lot of airplane for cities like that, and there are a few extra costs over the A320 (higher crew costs, for example), it might make sense to try it on routes to those cities too if the A320 worked.
 
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ArcticSEA
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Are any of the VX pilots sticking around after A320 series retirement? From reading the airline pilot central boards it seems a lot of Airbus pilots say they'll never go to the Boeing. Is there any truth to that or are they just posturing?

If you're displaced off the Airbus and into the 737, you either go through 737 training (and pass) or you find another line of work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
CX747
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:03 am

ArcticSEA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Are any of the VX pilots sticking around after A320 series retirement? From reading the airline pilot central boards it seems a lot of Airbus pilots say they'll never go to the Boeing. Is there any truth to that or are they just posturing?

If you're displaced off the Airbus and into the 737, you either go through 737 training (and pass) or you find another line of work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Exactly.

Guys definitely have favorites and I love it when they do. Passion for your work is outstanding. You can try different things with your seniority number to get the aircraft you want. When it comes down to it though, the company, the fleets and your seniority dictate what you fly. If A320s are being reduced and your seniority number can't hold a remaining A320 pilot pool slot, then you have 2 options.

1: Off to 737 land.
2: Hit the road and find a new employer.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:44 am

452QX wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
Well good for AS fleet simplification but why would any airline buy slightly used A321 from AS? Unless they are given away for free you can get brand new A321 from Airbus and not pay for all the interior replacement.


You would also be waiting at least 5-7 years for new build A321Ns without pulling some serious strings with airbus. The AS 321neos are still relatively low time frames early on in their lifecycle with quite a lot of value left in them. Even adding the cost of new interiors on all 10 probably wouldn’t offset the advantage of getting the frames early

There isn’t a five to year backlog, what are you talking about? Especially with lots of deferrals.
 
packmedic
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Are any of the VX pilots sticking around after A320 series retirement? From reading the airline pilot central boards it seems a lot of Airbus pilots say they'll never go to the Boeing. Is there any truth to that or are they just posturing?


Just posturing for the internet. MANY Alaska Airbus pilots have gone to Boeing (and vice-versa) for many reasons. Many of them did it for an easier, or no, commute, or did it for the different type of flying, or a whole host of reasons. While some may state they'll never go Boeing, there may come a day where they'll have a choice of that, or the door
 
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keesje
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:59 am

Boof02671 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!

Image

Delta just deferred new planes from Airbus, why would they buy used ones that need a million dollars to reconfigure?

You all need to stop with Delta buying this and that.


It's not about Delta & who needs aircraft. If an airlines can sell or avoid high leasing rates of a very popular aircraft and get a big discount / low lease rate on a less popular aircraft that can be a big cost saving. Specially if it also enables some further fleet standardization.
 
Strato2
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:30 am

Stitch wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for Alaska to work out a deal like that with the lessor. Alaska gets closer to fleet simplification, while the lessor finds homes for 737-9s in exchange for A320s that are probably easier to market given the massive number of A320 operators.


The Leeham.net article mentioned it was easier to remarket (so re-lease) a 737 than an A320 because of the "cargo appetite" for the 737 in the market. I am presuming they are speaking of passenger to freighter conversions, of which the 737-800 seems to be a popular model for such conversions (at least compared to the A320-200).

So lessors seem to be able to place 737s easier than A320s and as such they:

a) don't have 737s available to lease to Alaska due to existing customer demand;
b) are not interested in Alaska's A320s because of the difficulty in finding a new customer.

And therefore did not show real interest in Alaska's offer to swap A320 leases for 737 leases.


Who is making 737-9 cargo conversions?
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:55 am

It's a good move for Boeing, ALC and makes sense for Alaska. Its worth taking into account that while the 737 fleet at Alaska is roughly twice the size of the A320 fleet, both are significant fleets. The A32x fleet at Alaska is comparable in size to Avianca, TAP, Alitalia. While it might be accurate to call it a smaller fleet than the 737, it is hardly an orphan, or sub-fleet.
Im sure Airbus will be disappointed to see some A320 replaced by MAX, but Boeing simply has to sell some MAX to coincide with the grounding. I think this is a win for everyone, speeds AS transition to new narrow bodies and moves closer to an all 737 fleet. The benefits of a single fleet are unclear to me for an airline the size of Alaska, who are small compared to their peers, but still a very large airline.
 
texl1649
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:58 am

I am not too sure, but recall that the Virgin America A320 leases were termed...high cost vs. most other leases for this category. Not sure if they had a bad credit rating or just negotiated poorly on the price of the leased aircraft, but getting rid of those leases probably is driving this more than anything else.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:23 am

It is a sale and lease back (swap). You can not draw any conclusion from it, if you do not know the details of the contract.
 
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Polot
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:40 am

Strato2 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for Alaska to work out a deal like that with the lessor. Alaska gets closer to fleet simplification, while the lessor finds homes for 737-9s in exchange for A320s that are probably easier to market given the massive number of A320 operators.


The Leeham.net article mentioned it was easier to remarket (so re-lease) a 737 than an A320 because of the "cargo appetite" for the 737 in the market. I am presuming they are speaking of passenger to freighter conversions, of which the 737-800 seems to be a popular model for such conversions (at least compared to the A320-200).

So lessors seem to be able to place 737s easier than A320s and as such they:

a) don't have 737s available to lease to Alaska due to existing customer demand;
b) are not interested in Alaska's A320s because of the difficulty in finding a new customer.

And therefore did not show real interest in Alaska's offer to swap A320 leases for 737 leases.


Who is making 737-9 cargo conversions?

Nobody. Stitch (and Leeham which he was referencing) were referring to 737NGs, namely 738s.

texl1649 wrote:
I am not too sure, but recall that the Virgin America A320 leases were termed...high cost vs. most other leases for this category. Not sure if they had a bad credit rating or just negotiated poorly on the price of the leased aircraft, but getting rid of those leases probably is driving this more than anything else.


Yes, Alaska is likely able to negotiate better lease rates than VX ever could because their financial position has been much stronger than VX’s ever was. The A321neo lease rates must be painful, VX leased them very short notice (like a year before delivery) and were the launch operator.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:49 am

keesje wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Great plan. They can sell / hand those A321s over to Delta, they can even stay in Seattle. And get 737-9s out of the Mohave, dust them off, do the AD's, repaint them and there you go! Everybody happy!

Image

Delta just deferred new planes from Airbus, why would they buy used ones that need a million dollars to reconfigure?

You all need to stop with Delta buying this and that.


It's not about Delta & who needs aircraft. If an airlines can sell or avoid high leasing rates of a very popular aircraft and get a big discount / low lease rate on a less popular aircraft that can be a big cost saving. Specially if it also enables some further fleet standardization.

It’s not fleet standardization when the plane has a different cabin etc. And airlines are parking planes, canceling and deferring new orders, they aren’t looking to buy used planes and spend millions on reconfiguring.
 
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Polot
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:07 pm

In any event the A321neos are not Alaska’s planes. They have no say where they go and the owner (GECAS) is not going to just easily let AS out of the leases when AS is no doubt paying far more than current market rates for them. AS has been struggling to get lessors to agree to take their A320s back early.

All this talk about the A321neos leaving is premature and pure fantasy at this stage.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:53 pm

The narratives are getting hard to follow. If the A321 is the wunderkind of airliners then lessors should have no problem letting AS out of the leases so it can move on to the more efficient single type fleet and the lessors can get top dollar from all those airlines at the back of the order queue. On the other hand...
 
brindabella
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: Alaska Leases 13 New Boeing 737-9 MAXs, Sells 10 A320s

Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:44 pm

Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Somebody is trying to make lemonade from the simple, objective fact that AS is actively spending money while borrowing from the Feds to dump A320s for new MAX.


Are they spending money though for sure? Lessors might find it easier to rehome an a320 than a MAX now, so it could be a win-win move for both parties.


:bigthumbsup:


Good point.

Looks like win-win for both AS and the Lessor.

cheers

(PS - another poster - wouldn't be too gung-ho about retiring the A321neos, however. I would expect the fact that these frames were making beaucoup bucks would tend to
make the fleet completely bulletproof! :angel: ).

Forgot too add - and are super-reliable to boot!
:bouncy:

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