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GBNWB
Posts: 140
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:55 pm

skipness1E wrote:
So are containerised aircraft bulk loaded at Gatters?


EUUS-EUUZ which were delivered with a cargo loading mechanism had an insert fitted last year to protect this mechanism whilst they are loose loaded at Gatters.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:53 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

All of the A319s, A320s and A321s ordered by and delivered to BA are containerised.
All of the ex-BMed A321s (G-MEDx) are containerised.
All of the ex-BMI A320s (G-MIDx) are containerised.
The ex-BMed A320 (G-MEDK) is loose load.
All of the ex-BMI A319s (G-DBCx) are loose load.
All of the second hand A320s acquired for Gatwick (G-GATx) are loose load.

The Terminal 5 baggage systems and resources are designed around handling containerised baggage.
As mentioned above, loose load BA Airbuses do from time to time operate from LHR. I believe that they can as an exception be handled at T5 - I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong on that.


I believe this is correct. It might only be T5 that can’t handle it.


T5 handles non containerised baggage. They have handled B757s and several of the G-DBC* A319s were based here over summer and autumn.


Regarding the G-DBC* A319s operating from Heathrow, I did say that loose load BA Airbuses do from time to time operate from LHR.
IIRC all of BA's 757s (including the three acquired from Air Europe) were containerised except G-CPEP. Am I wrong?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:11 pm

GBNWB wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Rampvan wrote:

Some of the BD ex Bmed ones are bulk,


Of the ex-BMed via bmi Airbuses, only A320 G-MEDK is loose load. All the ex-BMed A321s are containerised.
As in post 31 above:
All of the A319s, A320s and A321s ordered by and delivered to BA are containerised.
All of the ex-BMed A321s (G-MEDx) are containerised.
All of the ex-BMI A320s (G-MIDx) are containerised.
Both of the ex-GB Airways via easyJet A320s (G-TTOx) are containerised.
The ex-BMed A320 (G-MEDK) is loose load.
All of the ex-BMI A319s (G-DBCx) are loose load.
All of the second hand A320s acquired for Gatwick (G-GATx) are loose load.


Are you sure about the bmi A320s, I thought they were loose loaded?
What about those delivered to BA but sent to LGW (UUS-UUZ) and fitted with the rubber protective insert? Do you know if they still have it?



Hello.
I retired from BA a couple of years ago. I still have a copy of a BA Ops document that lists the features of each aircraft that affects where it can operate to.
This includes things like MTOW (eg the ex-BMI A319s have a higher MTOW than the BA A319s), whether the aircraft has HF fitted (eg the early A320s have it, the later A320s don't), the noise level and so on.
All five ex-BMI A320s are shown on the list as being containerised.

To be honest I didn't know that G-EUUS-UUZ had a protective insert. For what its worth, I'd guess that if those aircraft are not expected to operate from LGW in the future the insert will be removed to reduce weight.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
GBNWB
Posts: 140
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:32 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
GBNWB wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

Of the ex-BMed via bmi Airbuses, only A320 G-MEDK is loose load. All the ex-BMed A321s are containerised.
As in post 31 above:
All of the A319s, A320s and A321s ordered by and delivered to BA are containerised.
All of the ex-BMed A321s (G-MEDx) are containerised.
All of the ex-BMI A320s (G-MIDx) are containerised.
Both of the ex-GB Airways via easyJet A320s (G-TTOx) are containerised.
The ex-BMed A320 (G-MEDK) is loose load.
All of the ex-BMI A319s (G-DBCx) are loose load.
All of the second hand A320s acquired for Gatwick (G-GATx) are loose load.


Are you sure about the bmi A320s, I thought they were loose loaded?
What about those delivered to BA but sent to LGW (UUS-UUZ) and fitted with the rubber protective insert? Do you know if they still have it?



Hello.
I retired from BA a couple of years ago. I still have a copy of a BA Ops document that lists the features of each aircraft that affects where it can operate to.
This includes things like MTOW (eg the ex-BMI A319s have a higher MTOW than the BA A319s), whether the aircraft has HF fitted (eg the early A320s have it, the later A320s don't), the noise level and so on.
All five ex-BMI A320s are shown on the list as being containerised.

To be honest I didn't know that G-EUUS-UUZ had a protective insert. For what its worth, I'd guess that if those aircraft are not expected to operate from LGW in the future the insert will be removed to reduce weight.


Just looked up IDX, it was converted to loose loaded in December 2018. I think all 5 G-MID were done around that time.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:34 pm

GBNWB wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
GBNWB wrote:

Are you sure about the bmi A320s, I thought they were loose loaded?
What about those delivered to BA but sent to LGW (UUS-UUZ) and fitted with the rubber protective insert? Do you know if they still have it?



Hello.
I retired from BA a couple of years ago. I still have a copy of a BA Ops document that lists the features of each aircraft that affects where it can operate to.
This includes things like MTOW (eg the ex-BMI A319s have a higher MTOW than the BA A319s), whether the aircraft has HF fitted (eg the early A320s have it, the later A320s don't), the noise level and so on.
All five ex-BMI A320s are shown on the list as being containerised.

To be honest I didn't know that G-EUUS-UUZ had a protective insert. For what its worth, I'd guess that if those aircraft are not expected to operate from LGW in the future the insert will be removed to reduce weight.


Just looked up IDX, it was converted to loose loaded in December 2018. I think all 5 G-MID were done around that time.


Hello.
Thanks for that. As always, happy to be corrected. I guess the conversion was done for their move to Gatwick.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:40 pm

Crosswind wrote:


...it’s clear that while T5 is set up to handle containerised aircraft, that is because BA’s whole operation is containerised, rather than because it’s impossible to handle a non-containerised operation there.

I cannot for 1 second accept that a major infrastructure project such as T5, which is owned by the airport and not the airline tenant could not handle bulk loading.
However it is just that as a matter of convenience because all BA’s T5 fleet uses containers, that’s how it’s currently set up.
That wouldn’t preclude them using a non-containerised fleet there in the future.


Terminal 5 is owned by Heathrow Airport Ltd. At the planning stage BA was expected to be the sole user (Iberia was a late addition) and the passenger and baggage handling processes and systems were largely specified by BA.

In the run up to the opening of T5 I worked in a role that had a close interest in aircraft loading.
For BA at Heathrow, with the schedule it has, handling baggage in containers offers significant benefits. Containers are much quicker to load and unload than loose loading. This enables shorter turn-rounds. Fewer loaders are needed. The containers arrive at the aircraft ready to fly and loading and offloading is done by a small team using mechanised trollies, lifts and equipment in the aircraft.
Given the benefits of increased revenue (shorter turnrounds enable more flying) and reduced cost, BA specified a highly automated baggage system for T5 designed around containers.
For BA, using containers is a case of carefully planned efficiency, not an accidental “matter of convenience”.
Given the revenue and cost benefits, BA has little or no incentive to redesign and rebuild all or part of the T5 baggage system to handle a greater proportion of loose baggage.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
marcogr12
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:59 pm

So why wouldn't they go for containerised baggage-system at LGW to increase revenue and reduce costs there too?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:31 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
So why wouldn't they go for containerised baggage-system at LGW to increase revenue and reduce costs there too?


Scale.

The LGW operation is smaller than LHR with less connecting pax.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
marcogr12
Posts: 600
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:18 am

So small not to be worth the trouble when at the same time they express interest in getting 200 Max planes that would go to Gatwick???
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:51 am

marcogr12 wrote:
So small not to be worth the trouble when at the same time they express interest in getting 200 Max planes that would go to Gatwick???


Where did it say that they are getting 200 planes for Gatwick?
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
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par13del
Posts: 10718
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:17 am

If Gatwick becomes too efficient it might encourage more person to use the airport.
...or efficiency only kicks in after one gets to a certain scale of operations...
 
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MrHMSH
Posts: 2785
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:17 am

marcogr12 wrote:
So small not to be worth the trouble when at the same time they express interest in getting 200 Max planes that would go to Gatwick???


The LOI we're discussing is 200 MAXs for IAG, not BA specifically. VY and LV were slated to receive some as well. Even then though, IAG may well have ordered fewer than 200, though with Covid effects it's anyone's guess as to whether there is an order or not. My gut feeling is no, at least for the foreseeable.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:43 am

marcogr12 wrote:
So why wouldn't they go for containerised baggage-system at LGW to increase revenue and reduce costs there too?


BA is not the sole tenant of the South terminal at Gatwick, and so can not dictate how the baggage processes and systems work. Also, Gatwick's South terminal is old (50+ years?). With LHR T5 BA was able to start with a blank sheet of paper. That is not the case with Gatwick.
Last edited by BealineV953 on Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:47 am

marcogr12 wrote:
So small not to be worth the trouble when at the same time they express interest in getting 200 Max planes that would go to Gatwick???


In June ‘19, a week after the IAG 737 MAX LOI was announced, IAG released a statement saying:
"The mix of 737-8 and 737-10 aircraft would be delivered between 2023 and 2027…. It is anticipated that the aircraft would be used by a number of the Group’s airlines including Vueling, LEVEL plus British Airways at London Gatwick airport."
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:15 pm

Opus99 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:

Typically containerised are operated from LHR and bulk loaded from LGW, though there are exceptions.


The Terminal 5 baggage systems and resources are designed around handling containerised baggage.
As mentioned above, loose load BA Airbuses do from time to time operate from LHR. I believe that they can as an exception be handled at T5 - I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong on that.


It’s very shocking that a 21st century terminal can only handle containerised baggage


For BA at T5, handling baggage in containers is way more efficient than handling loose bags. Containers are much quicker to load and unload than loose loading, and fewer loaders are needed.

Frankly, I’d be shocked if a new build terminal on the scale of T5 with the sort of schedule and mix of services BA has did not have a baggage system designed around containerised baggage.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:18 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Since Covid, BA is considering leaving LGW which will probably mean the MAX order won't happen. The MAX was targeted to operate out of LGW and can't be moved to LHR due to non-containerised luggage.

I am getting flashbacks to the time people got into a passionate argument about baggage containers on here. It got so heated it devolved into personal insults


Hello.
I see what you mean! :box:
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
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par13del
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Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:31 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
For BA at T5, handling baggage in containers is way more efficient than handling loose bags. Containers are much quicker to load and unload than loose loading, and fewer loaders are needed.

Frankly, I’d be shocked if a new build terminal on the scale of T5 with the sort of schedule and mix of services BA has did not have a baggage system designed around containerised baggage.

When T5 opened no one knew what type of baggage system they had, including the people working there, the meltdowns when T5 opened were there for all to see.
I guess the system was trying to come to grips with the fact that it only used containers.

Whether containers or not, the pax care about getting their bags in a timely fashion when going and coming, that is missed in all this argument about containers.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4916
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Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:05 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

I believe this is correct. It might only be T5 that can’t handle it.


T5 handles non containerised baggage. They have handled B757s and several of the G-DBC* A319s were based here over summer and autumn.


Regarding the G-DBC* A319s operating from Heathrow, I did say that loose load BA Airbuses do from time to time operate from LHR.
IIRC all of BA's 757s (including the three acquired from Air Europe) were containerised except G-CPEP. Am I wrong?

The 757 was all bulk loaded at BA.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:18 pm

par13del wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
For BA at T5, handling baggage in containers is way more efficient than handling loose bags. Containers are much quicker to load and unload than loose loading, and fewer loaders are needed.

Frankly, I’d be shocked if a new build terminal on the scale of T5 with the sort of schedule and mix of services BA has did not have a baggage system designed around containerised baggage.

When T5 opened no one knew what type of baggage system they had, including the people working there, the meltdowns when T5 opened were there for all to see.
I guess the system was trying to come to grips with the fact that it only used containers.

Whether containers or not, the pax care about getting their bags in a timely fashion when going and coming, that is missed in all this argument about containers.


The issues with the baggage system when T5 first opened were absolutely nothing to do with the use of containers.
If all passengers checked in at two hours before departure life would be easy. You’d accept their bags and put them straight into the build for the flight. However, some passengers check in very early, and others connect from other flights, sometimes with long connections. This creates the problem of what to do with the bags you are holding for which you are not yet building the load.
To cut a long story short, the T5 baggage system has an automated facility to ‘store’ and then retrieve bags when the load for the flight is being put together. When T5 opened this capability did not work well. After a couple of days or so, that part of the system was decommissioned.
The T5 baggage system has worked very well since.
BA’s baggage performance at T5 has been very good.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
Pendennis
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: What has become of IAG LOI to order 737MAX ?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:12 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
par13del wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

Whether containers or not, the pax care about getting their bags in a timely fashion when going and coming, that is missed in all this argument about containers.


In my experience, my bags often beat me to the baggage reclaim area in T5, which does not happen at many major International Airports. The exception would be anywhere in the USA where there's so many "jobs worth" to get past, my bags have usually been taken off the carousel so it can be used for another arrival.

Getting back on topic I cannot see how IAG would now need a large enough fleet of MAXs to justify having them within the Group. They were earmarked for Vueling, Level and BA Gatwick: the first has large fleet of A320s (including NEOs) with all the staff trained accordingly; I doubt Level (Short Haul) will ever take-off and as for BA Gatwick, whenever it starts up again it’s going to be a shadow of its former self. On top of all that IAG have a fleet of standardised NEOs on order that can be transferred within the Group, why sacrifice that flexibility for a few cheap MAXs.

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