Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1068
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 2022.

Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:40 pm

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/business ... 2/2241249/
Just out now, will update.

New agreement prevents the 1,700 pilot furloughs planned for Dec 1. Per PC, 74% voted for it, 26 against.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2755
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:08 pm

Be interesting to see what effect if any this has on Southwest's discussions with their unions
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:14 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Be interesting to see what effect if any this has on Southwest's discussions with their unions


United and Delta have thrown down the gauntlet. We will soon see how much brotherly LUV remains at SWA.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5715
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:55 pm

Delta ALPA really did well here imo.
 
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20954
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:07 pm

This Delta agreement has milder terms than I anticipated. Well done for the pilots.
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
T773ER
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:14 pm

Minimum Guarantee actually stays the same at 72hrs, the rolling 12 month average guarantee was cut by up to 5% to go no lower than 72hrs.
After a year this temporary cut becomes permanent which increases the staffing for pilots.

It also includes positive space commuting for pilots as well as a Market Based Cash Balance Plan (MBCBP) for added retirement savings in excess of the IRS limits. Overall there were several other contractual gains that the pilots achieved. Truly a win win that will benefit the pilot group in the long term.
 
reltney
Posts: 678
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:53 pm

T773ER wrote:
Minimum Guarantee actually stays the same at 72hrs, the rolling 12 month average guarantee was cut by up to 5% to go no lower than 72hrs.
After a year this temporary cut becomes permanent which increases the staffing for pilots.

It also includes positive space commuting for pilots as well as a Market Based Cash Balance Plan (MBCBP) for added retirement savings in excess of the IRS limits. Overall there were several other contractual gains that the pilots achieved. Truly a win win that will benefit the pilot group in the long term.




The MBCBP has NOT been finalized and the money is totally from the pilot with no company funds added. Not as good as it sounds but helpful.

The positive space commuting is for 12 months ONLY. I am a responsible commuter so really not beneficial but will admit it is nice.

There is +/- for both sides depending on your seniority.

Alpa should pay for the 30 hours pay for the excess pilots to stay at home.



Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:03 pm

These are crazy times. I know short term people will be mad at southwest especially a net legacy fanboys but I don't think it's long term damage for the company . It's not like they did it to appease wall street and make the stock go up for their own stock options, these are crazy times and all about survival. Southwest can offer the highest pay after and I bet it's water under the bridge
 
Lpbri
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:18 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:26 am

This may not sit well with other DL employees. It sounds like they all took bigger income cuts and got no goodies in return....
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6745
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:32 am

FA got positive space commuting along with the pilots. And didn’t pay union dues.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
FA got positive space commuting along with the pilots. And didn’t pay union dues.


LMAO oh yeah that had absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing FA union drive which just so happened to have a townhall call scheduled on the topic. Nothing at all, I’m sure.

Now they just need to get it cemented in a contract like the pilots so it can’t be taken away at any time.
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1068
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:16 am

T773ER wrote:
Minimum Guarantee actually stays the same at 72hrs, the rolling 12 month average guarantee was cut by up to 5% to go no lower than 72hrs.
After a year this temporary cut becomes permanent which increases the staffing for pilots.

It also includes positive space commuting for pilots as well as a Market Based Cash Balance Plan (MBCBP) for added retirement savings in excess of the IRS limits. Overall there were several other contractual gains that the pilots achieved. Truly a win win that will benefit the pilot group in the long term.


Does the Positive Space Commuting also apply to the branded regionals? If you remember, this has been kind of a big deal in the year leading up to COVID. There have been several incidents regarding bounced pax for must rides.

Is there a listing time notice required? I can just see a bunch of now-must rides showing up 30 minutes before departure....
 
apodino
Posts: 4020
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:28 am

How is APA dealing with this news at AA? You have United, Delta, and Southwest all not furloughing pilots, JetBlue is not Furloughing pilots and neither is Alaska or Spirit.

I bring this up because American being the only major airline to furlough pilots is a terrible look for the company, and Doug Parker. Why can't APA and AA come to agreements the way every other airline has?
 
toltommy
Posts: 2808
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:44 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Does the Positive Space Commuting also apply to the branded regionals? If you remember, this has been kind of a big deal in the year leading up to COVID. There have been several incidents regarding bounced pax for must rides.

Is there a listing time notice required? I can just see a bunch of now-must rides showing up 30 minutes before departure....


Positive space and must ride are 2 different things. They'll be able to book Positive Space via DeltaNet, but seats have to be available. NRPS seats come out of a fare bucket in inventory. And regular booking rules apply. They probably won't be able to run up 30 prior and claim a NRPS seat.

Not sure what you are asking in regards to the "branded regionals"? Are you asking if they'll be able to book Positive Space on a regional flight? With the exception of the Skywest at-risk markets, DL has 100% control of seats on DL regional flights. So odds are, DL pilots will be able to book a Positive Space seat on the flight. Or are you asking if this benefit will be extended to regional pilots? This is mainline only. The regionals (wholly owned and non) fall under different labor contracts. I'm sure the 9E pilots would like it, but DL doesn't even pay DL profit sharing the wholly-owned employees, so read into that what you will.....
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
/762/763/764/772/788/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440 /700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 1068
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:12 am

toltommy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Does the Positive Space Commuting also apply to the branded regionals? If you remember, this has been kind of a big deal in the year leading up to COVID. There have been several incidents regarding bounced pax for must rides.

Is there a listing time notice required? I can just see a bunch of now-must rides showing up 30 minutes before departure....


Positive space and must ride are 2 different things. They'll be able to book Positive Space via DeltaNet, but seats have to be available. NRPS seats come out of a fare bucket in inventory. And regular booking rules apply. They probably won't be able to run up 30 prior and claim a NRPS seat.

Not sure what you are asking in regards to the "branded regionals"? Are you asking if they'll be able to book Positive Space on a regional flight? With the exception of the Skywest at-risk markets, DL has 100% control of seats on DL regional flights. So odds are, DL pilots will be able to book a Positive Space seat on the flight. Or are you asking if this benefit will be extended to regional pilots? This is mainline only. The regionals (wholly owned and non) fall under different labor contracts. I'm sure the 9E pilots would like it, but DL doesn't even pay DL profit sharing the wholly-owned employees, so read into that what you will.....


I am referring to the GoJet/ Republic Jumpseat “ War”. (Obviously not an issue for GoJet anymore). Also, will they be bumping revenue pax for commuters? As has been posted here more than once, last minute adds have created some well-publicized issues in the past.
 
BTV290
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:33 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:00 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
toltommy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Does the Positive Space Commuting also apply to the branded regionals? If you remember, this has been kind of a big deal in the year leading up to COVID. There have been several incidents regarding bounced pax for must rides.

Is there a listing time notice required? I can just see a bunch of now-must rides showing up 30 minutes before departure....


Positive space and must ride are 2 different things. They'll be able to book Positive Space via DeltaNet, but seats have to be available. NRPS seats come out of a fare bucket in inventory. And regular booking rules apply. They probably won't be able to run up 30 prior and claim a NRPS seat.

Not sure what you are asking in regards to the "branded regionals"? Are you asking if they'll be able to book Positive Space on a regional flight? With the exception of the Skywest at-risk markets, DL has 100% control of seats on DL regional flights. So odds are, DL pilots will be able to book a Positive Space seat on the flight. Or are you asking if this benefit will be extended to regional pilots? This is mainline only. The regionals (wholly owned and non) fall under different labor contracts. I'm sure the 9E pilots would like it, but DL doesn't even pay DL profit sharing the wholly-owned employees, so read into that what you will.....


I am referring to the GoJet/ Republic Jumpseat “ War”. (Obviously not an issue for GoJet anymore). Also, will they be bumping revenue pax for commuters? As has been posted here more than once, last minute adds have created some well-publicized issues in the past.


As toltommy stated, these pilots will need to make their own reservations through the internal travel portal and that means seats need to be available for them to book. If somehow this puts a flight over the cap, then the gate agents will process as a standard oversale. Not a big deal. What I think you're picturing is more along the lines of what happened with UA and Dr. Dao, which is totally different. Those last minute dramas are usually caused by Crew Tracking who realise close to departure they need to reposition a crew. They have the ability to go in and force a crew onto an already full flight putting it into a last minute oversale situation. That is not the case or the process for booking commuters confirmed.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:25 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Also, will they be bumping revenue pax for commuters? As has been posted here more than once, last minute adds have created some well-publicized issues in the past.


At United there is a cutoff time for positive spacers and it is 60 minutes prior to departure, reason is (a well-publicized event) but also if a revenue passenger has to be bumped C.S. has time to respond and not wait until the aircraft is boarding. I'm guessing if a commuter hasn't book themselves 60 minutes out on UA then their options are the jumpiest if one is available.

Positive space for commuters is a good thing and with most pilots having their schedule in advance having positive space will allow them to book themselves early enough where bumping passengers shouldn't be much of a problem.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:16 pm

jayunited wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Also, will they be bumping revenue pax for commuters? As has been posted here more than once, last minute adds have created some well-publicized issues in the past.


At United there is a cutoff time for positive spacers and it is 60 minutes prior to departure, reason is (a well-publicized event) but also if a revenue passenger has to be bumped C.S. has time to respond and not wait until the aircraft is boarding. I'm guessing if a commuter hasn't book themselves 60 minutes out on UA then their options are the jumpiest if one is available.

Positive space for commuters is a good thing and with most pilots having their schedule in advance having positive space will allow them to book themselves early enough where bumping passengers shouldn't be much of a problem.


I'd guess from a gate agent's point of view, this should be much smoother than clearing commuters traveling standby, and especially easier than listing/checking in pilots and FAs for jumpseats.
 
global1
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:41 pm

Do UA flight attendants also get positive space commutes?
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta Pilots Approve New LOA, Cut Min Guarantee 5%, Inactive Pilots Cut to 30 Hours, NO Involuntary Layoffs Until 20

Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:57 pm

This was a total win-win deal. The singular cut to pilots is hardly even a cut. It's fair to say the pilots didn't really take any concessions here.

Here's how pilots get scheduled:
    -They bid a month's schedule.

    -Line pilot's can get awarded 65-99 hours a month. This is Line Credit Window (LCW)

    -Agregate pilot lines in a category must have an average line value (ALV) of 72-84 (Widebody 71-85). Reserve pilots get paid ALV -2hrs, but no lower than 72hrs.

    -Over a rolling 12 months, a category's average line value must be between 75-80 hours. This is total line value (TLV).

Since most pilots this year haven't been flying, the ALVs have been at a minimum 72 (71 WB). If no agreement was signed, Delta would have been forced to raise the ALV up to meet the TLV each month. This deal gives Delta relief on that until Jan2022. On an individual pilot, the cut is the potential loss of an increased minimum over this year. However, in Jan2022, the TLV is permanently lowered from 75-80 to 73-78. This means Delta pilots become less efficient, and more pilots are required for the same number of block hours. Pilots won't be required to work more in future busy months, like summer. They can still bid high time lines or pickup extra trips, so anyone worried about a pay cut won't need to see one, and those who usually get forced to work more at peak times can now have more time off. Short term win until 2022 for Delta, long term win for pilots.

OBTW, the deal also added positive space travel for commuters, 5 hour lower threshold to get x2 pay override on overtime flying, and a commitment to establish an additional retirement tax shelter next year. Oh yeah, and 1700 pilots who'd otherwise get furloughed now get 30hrs of pay. Big win for pilots given the circumstances. Victory for DL to reduce some cash short term, respond quickly to rebound by avoiding furlough, and still show other workgroups (via CNBC no less) that the pilots sacrificed too.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos