When Paris Charles de gaulle airport opened in 1974 was it mandatory that TWA and Pan Am to move their operations from Orly? I know later Pan Am pulled out
of Paris and returned later when they bought National who served MIA-ORY and added JFK-ORY then returned to CDG later.

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time. I cannot remember the overall timeframe, but I distinctly remembering it seemed to take AA a very long time to make the move which worked well for us since our office was so close to ORY. I also seem to remember that only AF, Air Inter and a group of smaller international airlines initially started some operations at CDG and other carriers were moved in stages. Would be interesting to hear what others remember or know.

TWA moved when CDG opened. PA stayed at ORY and left Paris altogether in 1975 with the TWA route swap. Not sure if they had moved to CDG in the interim. PA got back into ORY with the purchase of National in 1980. According to PA timetables, PA moved from ORY to CDG sometime between 1982 and 1985.

Were the future plans to close ORY? What was the reason for these changes, just to support the new airport?

twaconnie wrote:

Were the future plans to close ORY? What was the reason for these changes, just to support the new airport?

The first commercial airport in Paris was Le Bourget, which was far too small post-WWII to support the rapid growth of air traffic in Europe, and particularly Paris.

The already-existing airport at Orly was expanded to meet the rising demand; however, even the new airport couldn't cope with the steady rise in passenger numbers. Much like Linate airport in Milan, all international traffic (and this is pre-Schengen and EU) was to move to the new CDG, while domestic traffic would be focused at ORL.

As I recall, TWA went kicking and screaming out of ORL, but the French government said, "non!" and forced everyone out to the newer but much more distant facility.

Now, someone else in the know will REALLY have to research this, but I seem to remember reading about this "disagreement" between TWA and the French government that centered on the fact that certain French airlines would not only be allowed to stay at ORL, but that they would continue to be allowed to fly internationally (even if that was only in Europe) from Orly airport. TWA, which had recently agreed to "divide" Europe with Pan Am to avoid overlapping too much, and as such had hoped to be base their operations at ORL, which now they were kick out of.

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time. I cannot remember the overall timeframe, but I distinctly remembering it seemed to take AA a very long time to make the move which worked well for us since our office was so close to ORY. I also seem to remember that only AF, Air Inter and a group of smaller international airlines initially started some operations at CDG and other carriers were moved in stages. Would be interesting to hear what others remember or know.

AA relocated from ORY to CDG in October 1999. American viewed its Paris location at ORY as a competitive advantage given its proximity to central Paris, and resisted the move as long as possible, but the French government forced all the TATL carriers to shift to CDG that were not already there and AA was among the last to make the move.

Paris has always been AA's second largest and busiest station in Europe after LHR. At CDG, 2A, AA operates a relatively spacious and pleasant Admirals Club, though it does not have showers or any sort of arrival facility. Pre-COVID and at peak times, AA was operating up to 2 x daily DFW, daily ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, and PHL. JFK was at one time twice daily, with one 767-300ER and one 757. While at ORY, AA served RDU, alongside JFK which began in 1987, ORD, DFW, BOS and I think MIA as well. At CDG, there was a very briefly operated (a few months, in 2001) SJC-CDG service and I think AA tried LAX-CDG as well but was quickly dropped or announced but never started around 2000.

Just before COVID, ORD and DFW were serviced on the 787-8/9, Miami on the 772, JFK on the 772, CLT on the A332 and PHL on the A332/333.

Pan Am moved to Roissy in April 1985

Was Pan Am's CDG operation limited to just one daily JFK and MIA (post National)? Did PA have SFO/IAD to CDG too? I don't recall Paris being a major station for PA the way it was for TWA which had JFK 2 times daily and briefly 3 with the short lived daylight flight, STL, BOS, TLV, and intra-Europe to GVA, ZRH, and later other points in Southern Europe as the airline shrank.

Pan Ams London operations are more my area of knowledge, but I believe Pan Am flew CDG to Miami, New York JFK and Washington IAD. Miami was technically Pan Am last timetabled transatlantic route as this was the only route that Delta left Pan Am to operate when it became a MIA based airline, while I believe Washington was sold to United as part of the wider sale of Heathrow authority in 1990/91. I believe they also flew to Tel Aviv from CDG with an A310.

amc737

amc737 wrote:

Pan Ams London operations are more my area of knowledge, but I believe Pan Am flew CDG to Miami, New York JFK and Washington IAD. Miami was technically Pan Am last timetabled transatlantic route as this was the only route that Delta left Pan Am to operate when it became a MIA based airline, while I believe Washington was sold to United as part of the wider sale of Heathrow authority in 1990/91. I believe they also flew to Tel Aviv from CDG with an A310.

amc737

Thank you. That all sounds right, yes, Delta did not pick up the MIA-CDG authority as part of the 1991 acquisition of the entire TATL portfolio that was left, post LHR-sale to UA and indeed, UA acquired the IAD-CDG route authority along with the sale of the LHR slots by PA to UA. And you are correct, there was a CDG to TLV service as well, which was similar to TWA's service, except that TWA also flew nonstop between JFK and TLV and Pan Am did not, as I recall.

I was incorrect on SFO-CDG on Pan Am. I don't think PA's 747-100s could fly nonstop from CDG to SFO without a refuel, in winter time, which was also a problem for TWA and the LHR-LAX service, which is why the -200B's were acquired, and LHR-LAX-LHR on TWA also flown at times with the 747-SP between 1980 and 1985, when the SP was removed from the TWA fleet.

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time.

It did take time. IIRC, Delta was running CVG-ORY in 1993.

MIflyer12 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time.

It did take time. IIRC, Delta was running CVG-ORY in 1993.

I think maybe even later than that as well. Perhaps into 95.

I'm in possession of a Pan Am timetable from August, 1974 that identifies Paris operations as being from Charles de Gaulle.

MIflyer12 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time.

It did take time. IIRC, Delta was running CVG-ORY in 1993.

Delta moved to CDG in 1999/2000. Early to mid-1990s, they were at ORY.

MIflyer12 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time.

It did take time. IIRC, Delta was running CVG-ORY in 1993.

DL consolidated at CDG not long after becoming partners with AF. (Ex-Pan Am routes were always at CDG.)

Cointrin330 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time.

It did take time. IIRC, Delta was running CVG-ORY in 1993.

Delta moved to CDG in 1999/2000. Early to mid-1990s, they were at ORY.

This was after the formation of SkyTeam and DL wanting to be at the same airport as AF.

FWAERJ wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

It did take time. IIRC, Delta was running CVG-ORY in 1993.

Delta moved to CDG in 1999/2000. Early to mid-1990s, they were at ORY.

This was after the formation of SkyTeam and DL wanting to be at the same airport as AF.

Correct. It was the AF/DL agreement that triggered the DL move to CDG, but AF was also, and still is, at ORY as well, for leisure and some DOM TOM markets.

I have done some digging around, in 1990 Pan Am flew the following from Paris CDG

CDG to Geneva PA114 A310 daily
CDG to Miami PA135 747 4 weekly
CDG to New York JFK PA115 747 PA119 A310 both daily
CDG to Tel Aviv PA118 727 daily
CDG to Washington IAD PA141 A310 daily

In addition PA134 went onto Frankfurt from Miami and from Frankfurt to points east, as a 747 however CDG-FRA was not sold.

I checked my earliest Delta timetable 7 December 1997 and at this point only CDG featured.

amc737

In 1993 or 1994, I flew JFK-ORY-TLV on a Delta 767. Same plane service, though we had to deplane in Paris.

It was a cheep economy fare and it cost 20k miles to upgrade JFK-TLV.

Cointrin330 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time. I cannot remember the overall timeframe, but I distinctly remembering it seemed to take AA a very long time to make the move which worked well for us since our office was so close to ORY. I also seem to remember that only AF, Air Inter and a group of smaller international airlines initially started some operations at CDG and other carriers were moved in stages. Would be interesting to hear what others remember or know.

AA relocated from ORY to CDG in October 1999. American viewed its Paris location at ORY as a competitive advantage given its proximity to central Paris, and resisted the move as long as possible, but the French government forced all the TATL carriers to shift to CDG that were not already there and AA was among the last to make the move.

Paris has always been AA's second largest and busiest station in Europe after LHR. At CDG, 2A, AA operates a relatively spacious and pleasant Admirals Club, though it does not have showers or any sort of arrival facility. Pre-COVID and at peak times, AA was operating up to 2 x daily DFW, daily ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, and PHL. JFK was at one time twice daily, with one 767-300ER and one 757. While at ORY, AA served RDU, alongside JFK which began in 1987, ORD, DFW, BOS and I think MIA as well. At CDG, there was a very briefly operated (a few months, in 2001) SJC-CDG service and I think AA tried LAX-CDG as well but was quickly dropped or announced but never started around 2000.

Just before COVID, ORD and DFW were serviced on the 787-8/9, Miami on the 772, JFK on the 772, CLT on the A332 and PHL on the A332/333.

There was a great interview of Bob Crandall at Northwestern University speaking about this forced move. As he put it, AF lobbied the French government to force the move. AA at the time had the largest share of traffic and by forcing this which also forced them to lesser facilities than AF used, they fell behind.

Cointrin330 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time. I cannot remember the overall timeframe, but I distinctly remembering it seemed to take AA a very long time to make the move which worked well for us since our office was so close to ORY. I also seem to remember that only AF, Air Inter and a group of smaller international airlines initially started some operations at CDG and other carriers were moved in stages. Would be interesting to hear what others remember or know.

AA relocated from ORY to CDG in October 1999. American viewed its Paris location at ORY as a competitive advantage given its proximity to central Paris, and resisted the move as long as possible, but the French government forced all the TATL carriers to shift to CDG that were not already there and AA was among the last to make the move.

Paris has always been AA's second largest and busiest station in Europe after LHR. At CDG, 2A, AA operates a relatively spacious and pleasant Admirals Club, though it does not have showers or any sort of arrival facility. Pre-COVID and at peak times, AA was operating up to 2 x daily DFW, daily ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, and PHL. JFK was at one time twice daily, with one 767-300ER and one 757. While at ORY, AA served RDU, alongside JFK which began in 1987, ORD, DFW, BOS and I think MIA as well. At CDG, there was a very briefly operated (a few months, in 2001) SJC-CDG service and I think AA tried LAX-CDG as well but was quickly dropped or announced but never started around 2000.

Just before COVID, ORD and DFW were serviced on the 787-8/9, Miami on the 772, JFK on the 772, CLT on the A332 and PHL on the A332/333.

AA briefly operated LAX-CDG around 2000-2001, along with SJC-CDG, both on 763s. I remember AA had quite a sizable operation at CDG in 2001, with 2x daily JFK, on 772 and 763, DFW on the 772, ORD on the 763, MIA on the 763, BOS on the 763. Plans were in the works for a 2nd DFW & ORD and then 9/11 happened.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time. I cannot remember the overall timeframe, but I distinctly remembering it seemed to take AA a very long time to make the move which worked well for us since our office was so close to ORY. I also seem to remember that only AF, Air Inter and a group of smaller international airlines initially started some operations at CDG and other carriers were moved in stages. Would be interesting to hear what others remember or know.

AA relocated from ORY to CDG in October 1999. American viewed its Paris location at ORY as a competitive advantage given its proximity to central Paris, and resisted the move as long as possible, but the French government forced all the TATL carriers to shift to CDG that were not already there and AA was among the last to make the move.

Paris has always been AA's second largest and busiest station in Europe after LHR. At CDG, 2A, AA operates a relatively spacious and pleasant Admirals Club, though it does not have showers or any sort of arrival facility. Pre-COVID and at peak times, AA was operating up to 2 x daily DFW, daily ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, and PHL. JFK was at one time twice daily, with one 767-300ER and one 757. While at ORY, AA served RDU, alongside JFK which began in 1987, ORD, DFW, BOS and I think MIA as well. At CDG, there was a very briefly operated (a few months, in 2001) SJC-CDG service and I think AA tried LAX-CDG as well but was quickly dropped or announced but never started around 2000.

Just before COVID, ORD and DFW were serviced on the 787-8/9, Miami on the 772, JFK on the 772, CLT on the A332 and PHL on the A332/333.

There was a great interview of Bob Crandall at Northwestern University speaking about this forced move. As he put it, AF lobbied the French government to force the move. AA at the time had the largest share of traffic and by forcing this which also forced them to lesser facilities than AF used, they fell behind.

Thanks for sharing. ORY had its advantages for AA for sure, largely around proximity to central Paris, though that sort of depends on which bank of the river. I'd argue AA was fortunate in not having to operate from CDG1 after the move. Terminal 1 is absolutely awful. The set up AA had at CDG 2A pre-COVID19 was pretty decent and the Admiral's Club there is really quite spacious, with a lot of food selections, clean and well maintained lavatories, but no shower facilities. The last time I flew in and out of ORY was in the 1990s before the move to CDG and the terminal was cramped, with low ceilings, not much space, and the Admiral's Club there was not really very nice.

NYCAAer wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

flyer56 wrote:

The idea was that all North Atlantic flights would move from ORY to CDG, meaning all US airlines would have to move, and that process would take time. I cannot remember the overall timeframe, but I distinctly remembering it seemed to take AA a very long time to make the move which worked well for us since our office was so close to ORY. I also seem to remember that only AF, Air Inter and a group of smaller international airlines initially started some operations at CDG and other carriers were moved in stages. Would be interesting to hear what others remember or know.

AA relocated from ORY to CDG in October 1999. American viewed its Paris location at ORY as a competitive advantage given its proximity to central Paris, and resisted the move as long as possible, but the French government forced all the TATL carriers to shift to CDG that were not already there and AA was among the last to make the move.

Paris has always been AA's second largest and busiest station in Europe after LHR. At CDG, 2A, AA operates a relatively spacious and pleasant Admirals Club, though it does not have showers or any sort of arrival facility. Pre-COVID and at peak times, AA was operating up to 2 x daily DFW, daily ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, and PHL. JFK was at one time twice daily, with one 767-300ER and one 757. While at ORY, AA served RDU, alongside JFK which began in 1987, ORD, DFW, BOS and I think MIA as well. At CDG, there was a very briefly operated (a few months, in 2001) SJC-CDG service and I think AA tried LAX-CDG as well but was quickly dropped or announced but never started around 2000.

Just before COVID, ORD and DFW were serviced on the 787-8/9, Miami on the 772, JFK on the 772, CLT on the A332 and PHL on the A332/333.

AA briefly operated LAX-CDG around 2000-2001, along with SJC-CDG, both on 763s. I remember AA had quite a sizable operation at CDG in 2001, with 2x daily JFK, on 772 and 763, DFW on the 772, ORD on the 763, MIA on the 763, BOS on the 763. Plans were in the works for a 2nd DFW & ORD and then 9/11 happened.

Thanks for confirming. Indeed, it was quite the operation for a while. I flew AA from JFK to CDG and back 3 times in 2019 and the network AA had there pre-COVID was no less impressive, with 2 x daily to DFW, daily to ORD (seasonal, I think), JFK, MIA, CLT (seasonal?), and PHL. As I recall, it remains / remained the #2 US carrier at CDG after Delta and ahead of UA which has 1 x daily to IAD, EWR, ORD, and SFO. EWR at times in peak summer would operate 2 x daily.

amc737 wrote:

I have done some digging around, in 1990 Pan Am flew the following from Paris CDG

CDG to Geneva PA114 A310 daily
CDG to Miami PA135 747 4 weekly
CDG to New York JFK PA115 747 PA119 A310 both daily
CDG to Tel Aviv PA118 727 daily
CDG to Washington IAD PA141 A310 daily

In addition PA134 went onto Frankfurt from Miami and from Frankfurt to points east, as a 747 however CDG-FRA was not sold.

I checked my earliest Delta timetable 7 December 1997 and at this point only CDG featured.

amc737

Great research!

Dela's December 1996 timetable still shows Orly. So we've narrowed it down to sometime in 1997.

When DL took over the JFK - Paris route and moved them to Orly, they kept the GVA and TLV tags
DL 114/115 JFK-ORY-GVA
DL 118/119 JFK-ORY-TLV

Geneva didnt last long ... TLV lasted for years, as pointed out above

Cointrin330 wrote:

NYCAAer wrote:

Cointrin330 wrote:

AA relocated from ORY to CDG in October 1999. American viewed its Paris location at ORY as a competitive advantage given its proximity to central Paris, and resisted the move as long as possible, but the French government forced all the TATL carriers to shift to CDG that were not already there and AA was among the last to make the move.

Paris has always been AA's second largest and busiest station in Europe after LHR. At CDG, 2A, AA operates a relatively spacious and pleasant Admirals Club, though it does not have showers or any sort of arrival facility. Pre-COVID and at peak times, AA was operating up to 2 x daily DFW, daily ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, and PHL. JFK was at one time twice daily, with one 767-300ER and one 757. While at ORY, AA served RDU, alongside JFK which began in 1987, ORD, DFW, BOS and I think MIA as well. At CDG, there was a very briefly operated (a few months, in 2001) SJC-CDG service and I think AA tried LAX-CDG as well but was quickly dropped or announced but never started around 2000.

Just before COVID, ORD and DFW were serviced on the 787-8/9, Miami on the 772, JFK on the 772, CLT on the A332 and PHL on the A332/333.

AA briefly operated LAX-CDG around 2000-2001, along with SJC-CDG, both on 763s. I remember AA had quite a sizable operation at CDG in 2001, with 2x daily JFK, on 772 and 763, DFW on the 772, ORD on the 763, MIA on the 763, BOS on the 763. Plans were in the works for a 2nd DFW & ORD and then 9/11 happened.

Thanks for confirming. Indeed, it was quite the operation for a while. I flew AA from JFK to CDG and back 3 times in 2019 and the network AA had there pre-COVID was no less impressive, with 2 x daily to DFW, daily to ORD (seasonal, I think), JFK, MIA, CLT (seasonal?), and PHL. As I recall, it remains / remained the #2 US carrier at CDG after Delta and ahead of UA which has 1 x daily to IAD, EWR, ORD, and SFO. EWR at times in peak summer would operate 2 x daily.

If it hadn’t been for the DL-AF joint business venture, AA would probably still be the largest US carrier at CDG. Post coronavirus, it looks like it’s going to be 1 789 to DFW, 1 772 to JFK, 1 788 to ORD, 1 788 to PHL and 1 772 to MIA. Subject to change due to such uncertainty.

deltacto wrote:

amc737 wrote:

I have done some digging around, in 1990 Pan Am flew the following from Paris CDG

CDG to Geneva PA114 A310 daily
CDG to Miami PA135 747 4 weekly
CDG to New York JFK PA115 747 PA119 A310 both daily
CDG to Tel Aviv PA118 727 daily
CDG to Washington IAD PA141 A310 daily

In addition PA134 went onto Frankfurt from Miami and from Frankfurt to points east, as a 747 however CDG-FRA was not sold.

I checked my earliest Delta timetable 7 December 1997 and at this point only CDG featured.

amc737

Great research!

Dela's December 1996 timetable still shows Orly. So we've narrowed it down to sometime in 1997.

When DL took over the JFK - Paris route and moved them to Orly, they kept the GVA and TLV tags
DL 114/115 JFK-ORY-GVA
DL 118/119 JFK-ORY-TLV

Geneva didnt last long ... TLV lasted for years, as pointed out above

I remember flying into ORY as a F/A with AA, and talking to a DL cabin crew. They were TLV-based, and they only worked to ORY and then a JFK crew took the plane onto JFK. We talked about how the crew on TLV-ORY had to speak 3 languages- English, French and Hebrew. The crew on ORY-JFK only had English and French speakers, I believe. The TLV F/As were let go when the tags ended.

A bit more research, I think the move happened 7 April 1997, this ties in with what we already found out via the timetables

amc737