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bahadir
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MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:16 am

I was just browsing through the MSNs of Boeing 737 aircraft and I noticed that there is a big jump from the last -800 built to the Max aircraft produced.
44953 6048 737-8FV(P-8A) US Navy 14/10/2016 169011 Active
60008 7295 737-8MAX Royal Air Maroc 30/11/2018 CN-MAX Active (parked)

I thought the MSNs were sequential numbers. Am I wrong on the assumption?

Thanks.
Earthbound misfit I
 
MEA-707
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:48 am

No the MSNs have less and less in common with the sequence of built. They allocate them at time of orders, some orders get long delays and that's how you could see MSN 31280, a 737-800 for American, being ordered around year 2000 but only built in december 2017, is built next after MSN 64068 a 737-8M for LOT. The 2nd 4 digit number you mention is the ln (line number), a sequential number. But the two aircraft you mention are no where near the last -800 and the first 8MAX. The first MAX was ln 5602 for Southwest, while military versions of the -800 are still being built, the highest known ln is 8334. So you see a few years of mixed production of -800s and MAX. That said they run much ahead with the old 800s as the highest MAX recently seen in production/test phase is ln 7922.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
bmibaby737
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:16 am

bahadir wrote:
I was just browsing through the MSNs of Boeing 737 aircraft and I noticed that there is a big jump from the last -800 built to the Max aircraft produced.
44953 6048 737-8FV(P-8A) US Navy 14/10/2016 169011 Active
60008 7295 737-8MAX Royal Air Maroc 30/11/2018 CN-MAX Active (parked)

I thought the MSNs were sequential numbers. Am I wrong on the assumption?

Thanks.


McDonnell Douglas and the Boeing 717 used the MSNs in between (MSNs are for all Boeing aircraft - not just the 737s)

https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... D-80-MD-90
https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... C-10-MD-11
https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... Boeing/717
 
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PM
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:43 am

We need to distinguish between serial numbers and line numbers.

Boeing serial numbers are of pretty limited use to most of us. Line numbers are more helpful.

Boeing 787 B-20D8 was the 900th 787 built. That's quite interesting. That it was Boeing serial number (MSN) 63715 cannot be of much interest (or use) to anyone except Boeing.

One other point. To the best of my knowledge, Boeing never skip line numbers. Airbus do, however - quite often.
 
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747classic
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:12 pm

PM wrote:
We need to distinguish between serial numbers and line numbers.

Boeing serial numbers are of pretty limited use to most of us. Line numbers are more helpful.

Boeing 787 B-20D8 was the 900th 787 built. That's quite interesting. That it was Boeing serial number (MSN) 63715 cannot be of much interest (or use) to anyone except Boeing.

One other point. To the best of my knowledge, Boeing never skip line numbers. Airbus do, however - quite often.


AFAIK Boeing skipped one 767 line number :
L/N 718, destined to become a 767-38E for Asiana (ordered with serial number 25755)

All civil Boeing line numbers + aircraft type + corresponding serial numbers can be found here :

https://www.abcdlist.nl/bline.html
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
889091
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:03 pm

Are the Serial Numbers stamped somewhere in the cockpit, similar to a VIN for cars?
 
awzk
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:37 pm

MSNs and line numbers can be extremely useful to those of us that collect registrations. Depending on how your records
are organised, MSNs and line numbers help to differentiate aircraft that have had multiple registrations or owners.
I personally have seen one B747 six times in different guises. My records are listed using Microsft Excel and can therefore
find the aircraft entry and note itr accordingly
 
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747classic
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:39 pm

889091 wrote:
Are the Serial Numbers stamped somewhere in the cockpit, similar to a VIN for cars?


Yes, an aircraft data plate is installed, see : viewtopic.php?t=755373
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
TC957
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:13 pm

Airbus skips l/n's when orders get cancelled after having been allocated in the production process.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:55 pm

You can work out where some MSNs were part of orders/options but never taken up. For example, 25806-25860 were part of a BA order for 757-236s (25806-25808), 747-436s (25809-25824), 767-336ERs (25826-25834) and 737-436s (25839-25860). However, there are gaps where some aircraft orders were cancelled, or options not exercised. The reason? This order was placed before the first Gulf War so in the recession that followed the original plans went out the window. "Missing" MSNs are:
  • 25815 - 747-436
  • 25816 - 747-436
  • 25825 - 747-436 or 767-336ER
  • 25827 - 767-336ER
  • 25830 - 767-336ER
  • 25833 - 767-336ER
  • 25835-25838 - 767-336ERs (Assuming not 737s as they seem to have largely stayed in order)
  • 25845 - 737-436
  • 25846 - 737-436
  • 25847 - 737-436

25861-25863 might have been 737-436 options but no way of knowing for certain.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
crownvic
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:19 am

PM wrote:
We need to distinguish between serial numbers and line numbers.

Boeing serial numbers are of pretty limited use to most of us. Line numbers are more helpful.

Boeing 787 B-20D8 was the 900th 787 built. That's quite interesting. That it was Boeing serial number (MSN) 63715 cannot be of much interest (or use) to anyone except Boeing.

One other point. To the best of my knowledge, Boeing never skip line numbers. Airbus do, however - quite often.


A "hardcore" enthusiast, may disagree with you. For many years, the serial numbers for most aircraft (especially Boeing, Douglas and Convair types), was useful in determining the generation of when an aircraft was built. While it was not 100% accurate (due to cancellations), I would say it was 98% accurate. In fairness though to your statement, fast forward into Boeing's takeover of McD and from that point forward, things began to get screwed up. Integrating the already used numbers by McD into the Boeing system threw everything off (as mentioned by a previous post). To add insult to injury, Boeing later scrubbed their customer ID numbers on the aircraft series type that was always very useful in tracking back where a Boeing type originated. They then went to the generic -700, -800, -900, etc codes further making things confusing for fleet trackers.
 
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PM
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:43 am

I assume Airbus must use serial numbers too to give each airframe a unique identity. (There are, obviously, lots of line numbers. I've flown on three different airliners that were all the 8th produced - 111, Saab 2000, 787.)

I wonder why the Boeing serial number is so prominent but we never hear about the Airbus one.
 
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747classic
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:34 am

PM wrote:
I assume Airbus must use serial numbers too to give each airframe a unique identity. (There are, obviously, lots of line numbers. I've flown on three different airliners that were all the 8th produced - 111, Saab 2000, 787.)

I wonder why the Boeing serial number is so prominent but we never hear about the Airbus one.


Because of the long (non digital) history of the legacy OEM's like Boeing, Douglas, etc.
Airbus is a relative late entry OEM.
Before the digital age every order, drawing, sub drawing had it's own indentification number in the different departments (sales, production, spares, etc.)

Boeing (internal) identifiers are (were) :
- serial number
- line number
- customer identification code (deleted)
- basic number
- variable (tabulation) number
- engine number (deleted)
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
ELBOB
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:06 am

PM wrote:

I wonder why the Boeing serial number is so prominent but we never hear about the Airbus one.


There's really no secret to the Airbus production serials, just scroll down here and they're prominently displayed:

https://aibfamily.flights/

Airbus use a sequential serial for each aircraft family, they don't have a unified overall serial.
 
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PM
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:50 am

ELBOB wrote:
PM wrote:

I wonder why the Boeing serial number is so prominent but we never hear about the Airbus one.


There's really no secret to the Airbus production serials, just scroll down here and they're prominently displayed:

https://aibfamily.flights/

Airbus use a sequential serial for each aircraft family, they don't have a unified overall serial.

Which was rather my point ... :roll:

The "MSN" for Airbus is actually a line number whereas every Boeing airliner has a unique serial regardless of its line number.
 
WIederling
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:32 pm

PM wrote:
ELBOB wrote:
PM wrote:

I wonder why the Boeing serial number is so prominent but we never hear about the Airbus one.


There's really no secret to the Airbus production serials, just scroll down here and they're prominently displayed:

https://aibfamily.flights/

Airbus use a sequential serial for each aircraft family, they don't have a unified overall serial.

Which was rather my point ... :roll:

The "MSN" for Airbus is actually a line number whereas every Boeing airliner has a unique serial regardless of its line number.


You are gyrating in circles afaics.
You think serial IDs must be numerical. But look in your cars papers: it is an alphanum character set.

all Airbus $type:$LN IDs are unique. there are holes.
( more KISS : just the type and LN not a bouquet of unrelated numbers.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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PM
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:33 pm

WIederling wrote:
PM wrote:
ELBOB wrote:

There's really no secret to the Airbus production serials, just scroll down here and they're prominently displayed:

https://aibfamily.flights/

Airbus use a sequential serial for each aircraft family, they don't have a unified overall serial.

Which was rather my point ... :roll:

The "MSN" for Airbus is actually a line number whereas every Boeing airliner has a unique serial regardless of its line number.


You are gyrating in circles afaics.
You think serial IDs must be numerical. But look in your cars papers: it is an alphanum character set.

all Airbus $type:$LN IDs are unique. there are holes.
( more KISS : just the type and LN not a bouquet of unrelated numbers.)


I have no idea if serial IDs must be anything. Nor do I particularly care. I'm just wondering if Airbus even have them considering they are so important to Boeing and others.

Are you saying that within Airbus the first A350 delivered to British Airways (for example) is known as A350 No. 326 and nothing else? Maybe you're right. But it seems strange to me.
 
UA947
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:20 pm

PM wrote:
The "MSN" for Airbus is actually a line number whereas every Boeing airliner has a unique serial regardless of its line number.

If so, where are "Airbus line numbers" 9599-9999 for the A320 ??
Boeing only cancelled one (767 l/n 718) in the past and now you claim Airbus cancelled 400 ??
I'm not going on a Boeing
 
Antarius
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Re: MSN jump in Boeing 737s

Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:51 pm

UA947 wrote:
PM wrote:
The "MSN" for Airbus is actually a line number whereas every Boeing airliner has a unique serial regardless of its line number.

If so, where are "Airbus line numbers" 9599-9999 for the A320 ??
Boeing only cancelled one (767 l/n 718) in the past and now you claim Airbus cancelled 400 ??


Airbus jumped a set as part of a software change to support 5 digit numbers. When the system was built back in the day, it was designed to go to 9999 only. As a result, they went from 93xx to 10000 leaving a gap in case they had problems and needed to flip back.

This was a unique case driven by a "Y2K" moment.
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