I thought it would be helpful to start a new topic on vaccine flights. Looks like UA is going at it here in the US. https://www.wsj.com/articles/united-beg ... 1606512293

Paywall. So couldn’t read whole thing
Are these United flights cargo only?? How’d the get around dry ice faa max on a plane?

Akwagon wrote:

Paywall. So couldn’t read whole thing
Are these United flights cargo only?? How’d the get around dry ice faa max on a plane?

Free article from Simple Flying:

For instance, there are refrigerated storage sites at the company’s final-assembly centers in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and Puurs, Belgium. Moreover, it is expanding storage capacity at distribution sites in Pleasant Prairie, Wisconsin, and Karlsruhe, Germany. United plans to perform chartered cargo services between Brussels International Airport and Chicago O’Hare International Airport to support distribution.

We picked up on this in the Peak Cargo thread. It was UAL 2821 https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL ... /EBBR/KORD

Flying yesterday with 777-200 N78009, probably belly freight only. FR24 indicaes the return flight is scheduled with a 777 on Dec 2,3 and 4 as well.

Akwagon wrote:

Paywall. So couldn’t read whole thing
Are these United flights cargo only?? How’d the get around dry ice faa max on a plane?

Per a foxnews article:

“United Airlines will be allowed to carry five times the amount of dry ice normally permitted on board to keep the vaccine at the necessary cold temperature.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnew ... accine.amp


Fun question, what is the max amount of dry ice allowed?

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

Probably vaccines, already dispatching it to have it ready to administer to people for the day it's approved.

cesar666cu wrote:

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

Probably vaccines, already dispatching it to have it ready to administer to people for the day it's approved.

The pharma companies involved in testing have been manufacturing enormous volumes of doses even during the testing phases so they'd be immediately available when approved.

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

Vaccines. Once the vaccine is approved, you don't then want to wait days to weeks for them to move the vaccines to the various regions around the US and world. That's also how shortages happen (say for example, if only 10k/day could be sent to NYC, a city of over 8m people). If they already have stockpiles of the vaccines where they're needed, people all over can get the vaccine the day it's approved. No need to wait, or have to come back day after day because of shortages.

eightcone wrote:

Akwagon wrote:

Paywall. So couldn’t read whole thing
Are these United flights cargo only?? How’d the get around dry ice faa max on a plane?

Per a foxnews article:

“United Airlines will be allowed to carry five times the amount of dry ice normally permitted on board to keep the vaccine at the necessary cold temperature.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnew ... accine.amp


Fun question, what is the max amount of dry ice allowed?

Depends on the aircraft, which hold the dry ice is in, and the carrier. Can range from anywhere between a few hundred kgs and a few thousand

Vaccine transport is going to be an interesting topic moving forward. Going to be a lot of cargo on a lot of flights

A couple sources I have seen today say that FAA is allowing 15,000 pounds of dry ice instead of the usual 3,000 pounds on the 777.

Side question that is interesting from a technical point and maybe a United wide body driver could chime in with. With the increased volume of sublimation gases, as part of the FAA waiver for this are the crews being required to stay on oxygen for the whole flight?

I posted this previously in the COVID cargo thread, but here is the same news

Turkish Cargo carried out the transport of 7 cooled containers of vaccine from Beijing China to Sao Paulo Brazil.



https://www.dailysabah.com/business/tra ... -transport

Are we expecting most vaccine to be transported by commercial airlines in belly capacity or will it be dominated by dedicated freighter airlines? Are couriers like UPS, Fedex better equip to handle vaccines in general etc?

eightcone wrote:

A couple sources I have seen today say that FAA is allowing 15,000 pounds of dry ice instead of the usual 3,000 pounds on the 777.

Side question that is interesting from a technical point and maybe a United wide body driver could chime in with. With the increased volume of sublimation gases, as part of the FAA waiver for this are the crews being required to stay on oxygen for the whole flight?

No.

Crews are just reminded of and should be on the look out for symptoms of CO2 over exposure.

ET is actively transporting pharmaceuticals. They also have one of the largest cold storage facilities in Africa and are gearing up for distribution. Additionally ET's 77F's are configured for cold storage. https://ajot.com/news/ethiopian-pharma- ... 19-vaccine

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

LAXintl wrote:

I posted this previously in the COVID cargo thread, but here is the same news

Turkish Cargo carried out the transport of 7 cooled containers of vaccine from Beijing China to Sao Paulo Brazil.



https://www.dailysabah.com/business/tra ... -transport

Do we have an idea how much weight one of those cooled containers full of vaccine?

Many thanks.

eightcone wrote:

A couple sources I have seen today say that FAA is allowing 15,000 pounds of dry ice instead of the usual 3,000 pounds on the 777.

Side question that is interesting from a technical point and maybe a United wide body driver could chime in with. With the increased volume of sublimation gases, as part of the FAA waiver for this are the crews being required to stay on oxygen for the whole flight?

15,000 pounds is correct. On the first few 'test' flights between BRU and ORD, United has an environmental engineer onboard who is tasked with monitoring CO2 levels throughout the cabin and flight deck. Additionally, there are some new requirements for dispatch that relate to APU and pack operability. There was an internal pilot bulletin that came out explaining these flights, extra precautions being taken, dispatch requirements, etc.....and a reminder of symptoms to CO2 overexposure. Oxygen masks not required at all unless experiencing unusual symptoms (fatigue, headache, etc.). Don't think they are expecting any issues on these flights, but the process and cargo loads are something new.....so a bit of an education campaign for the 777 fleet.

AA has already completed a test flight

American Airlines said in a statement Friday it successfully completed a trial flight from Miami to South America, testing the airline's thermal packaging and stress test processes it created for shipping vaccines.

"We have established a network of team members that specialize in temperature-critical shipments, and work closely with the FAA on regulations governing shipments transported with dry ice. We have worked with the FAA to increase dry ice limits on our widebody cargo-only flights," a Friday statement from American Airlines read.

https://www.wfaa.com/amp/article/news/h ... 5b6a04f977

smokeybandit wrote:

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

That would only allow use in the US then. Other countries would also need to approve the use first as well before it can be used elsewhere. Not every one blindly follows US regulators.

gon2fly wrote:

eightcone wrote:

A couple sources I have seen today say that FAA is allowing 15,000 pounds of dry ice instead of the usual 3,000 pounds on the 777.

Side question that is interesting from a technical point and maybe a United wide body driver could chime in with. With the increased volume of sublimation gases, as part of the FAA waiver for this are the crews being required to stay on oxygen for the whole flight?

15,000 pounds is correct. On the first few 'test' flights between BRU and ORD, United has an environmental engineer onboard who is tasked with monitoring CO2 levels throughout the cabin and flight deck. Additionally, there are some new requirements for dispatch that relate to APU and pack operability. There was an internal pilot bulletin that came out explaining these flights, extra precautions being taken, dispatch requirements, etc.....and a reminder of symptoms to CO2 overexposure. Oxygen masks not required at all unless experiencing unusual symptoms (fatigue, headache, etc.). Don't think they are expecting any issues on these flights, but the process and cargo loads are something new.....so a bit of an education campaign for the 777 fleet.

Thanks for the great info!

jomur wrote:

smokeybandit wrote:

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

That would only allow use in the US then. Other countries would also need to approve the use first as well before it can be used elsewhere. Not every one blindly follows US regulators.

Right. But this thread was started with an article about vaccine flights to the USA.

I was advised today that FX and UPS are preferred carriers and should be seeing shipments within the next week or so.

OK, chemistry boffins: Dry ice is a solid but "melts" into a weightless gas. Maybe these flights aren't long enough to make a difference but how would an operator deal with an enroute cargo weight change like this?

jomur wrote:

smokeybandit wrote:

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

That would only allow use in the US then. Other countries would also need to approve the use first as well before it can be used elsewhere. Not every one blindly follows US regulators.

Folks, they are positioning the vaccine in anticipation of approval. Nothing can be administered, except as part if the testing, until aporoved.

Right now the data shows it can be approved. There is no new information for the FDA; this is on the paperwork process.

Other countries... won't have supply so no worries about them.

By the end of December, there might be 40 million doses available of the first two vaccines.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 359544002/

Per the above link, 1st distro Sunday Dec 13th. So please comment within realistic time frames.

The Oxford Vaccine has its testing hickups. (I like how it becomes the Astra-Zeneca vaccine when news is bad...). This vaccine is probably the first for Europe.

At this time, I'm not even expecting anything but the Sputnik V vaccine to be distributed in 2020. Did I miss any others besides: Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, Oxford-AstraZeneca, and Sputnik V for possible distribution in 2020?

Supply will be far less than demand in 2021, in my opinion.

Lightsaber

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:

OK, chemistry boffins: Dry ice is a solid but "melts" into a weightless gas. Maybe these flights aren't long enough to make a difference but how would an operator deal with an enroute cargo weight change like this?

1: it sublimates, it doesn't melt. It skips over the entire liquid phase so hey, no drips.
2: The gas isn't weightless. A pound of carbon dioxide in solid or gas form weighs the same.
3: Only a portion of the dry ice will sublimate (and excess CO2 will get dumped overboard by normal air handling like CO2 waste from self-loading freight).
4: as i's distributed evenly in the lower holds, the small drop in weight will have less impact on w&b than other big weight shifts during flight such as burning fuel.

Probably as noticeable as when sink water gets dumped directly overboard (so likely: not).

lightsaber wrote:

jomur wrote:

smokeybandit wrote:

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

That would only allow use in the US then. Other countries would also need to approve the use first as well before it can be used elsewhere. Not every one blindly follows US regulators.

Folks, they are positioning the vaccine in anticipation of approval. Nothing can be administered, except as part if the testing, until aporoved.

Right now the data shows it can be approved. There is no new information for the FDA; this is on the paperwork process.

You cannot carry/move around unapproved stuff like that...if so, any airline doing so would actually be illegal drugrunners

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

jomur wrote:

That would only allow use in the US then. Other countries would also need to approve the use first as well before it can be used elsewhere. Not every one blindly follows US regulators.

Folks, they are positioning the vaccine in anticipation of approval. Nothing can be administered, except as part if the testing, until aporoved.

Right now the data shows it can be approved. There is no new information for the FDA; this is on the paperwork process.

You cannot carry/move around unapproved stuff like that...if so, any airline doing so would actually be illegal drugrunners

You’re just making it up as you type, entertaining really.

Spacepope wrote:

Probably as noticeable as when sink water gets dumped directly overboard (so likely: not).

Does water get dumped overboard????
I might not be getting the joke haahha

AZa346 wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

Probably as noticeable as when sink water gets dumped directly overboard (so likely: not).

Does water get dumped overboard????
I might not be getting the joke haahha

Yes, the sink water (galley and lav) at least on most Boeing aircraft exits through a "drain mast" which is heated. Waste grey water isn't really dangerous for pathogens and the like, and hauling it around after it's used is very heavy, so overboard it goes. viewtopic.php?t=725829

You can see a "fifth contrail" here from water coming out of the heated mast in flight here.

lightsaber wrote:

jomur wrote:

smokeybandit wrote:

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

That would only allow use in the US then. Other countries would also need to approve the use first as well before it can be used elsewhere. Not every one blindly follows US regulators.

Folks, they are positioning the vaccine in anticipation of approval. Nothing can be administered, except as part if the testing, until aporoved.

Right now the data shows it can be approved. There is no new information for the FDA; this is on the paperwork process.

Other countries... won't have supply so no worries about them.

By the end of December, there might be 40 million doses available of the first two vaccines.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 359544002/

Per the above link, 1st distro Sunday Dec 13th. So please comment within realistic time frames.

The Oxford Vaccine has its testing hickups. (I like how it becomes the Astra-Zeneca vaccine when news is bad...). This vaccine is probably the first for Europe.

At this time, I'm not even expecting anything but the Sputnik V vaccine to be distributed in 2020. Did I miss any others besides: Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, Oxford-AstraZeneca, and Sputnik V for possible distribution in 2020?

Supply will be far less than demand in 2021, in my opinion.

Lightsaber

Pfizer and Moderna should be the first two vaccines approved in the US/Europe/Canada hopefully by the middle of December. J&J, Novavax and CureVac is still in trials and results are not expected until 2021. I’m not sure if they are going to do more testing with the Oxford vaccine or go with what they have.

I believe there is a Chinese vaccine either being distributed or in late stage trials and then of course the Russian one Sputnik V. Neither of which will be approved for use in the west any time soon.

Spacepope wrote:

AZa346 wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

Probably as noticeable as when sink water gets dumped directly overboard (so likely: not).

Does water get dumped overboard????
I might not be getting the joke haahha

Yes, the sink water (galley and lav) at least on most Boeing aircraft exits through a "drain mast" which is heated. Waste grey water isn't really dangerous for pathogens and the like, and hauling it around after it's used is very heavy, so overboard it goes. viewtopic.php?t=725829

You can see a "fifth contrail" here from water coming out of the heated mast in flight here.

TIL. Thanks for this, Spacepope. Are there regulations that dictate how high airliners must be for the drain masts to be used? I imagine the masts perhaps aren't used at low altitude. The referenced thread from 19 years ago doesn't specify. TIA.

EDIT: clarification.

Western727 wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

AZa346 wrote:

Does water get dumped overboard????
I might not be getting the joke haahha

Yes, the sink water (galley and lav) at least on most Boeing aircraft exits through a "drain mast" which is heated. Waste grey water isn't really dangerous for pathogens and the like, and hauling it around after it's used is very heavy, so overboard it goes. viewtopic.php?t=725829

You can see a "fifth contrail" here from water coming out of the heated mast in flight here.

TIL. Thanks for this, Spacepope. Are there regulations that dictate how high airliners must be for the drain masts to be used? I imagine the masts perhaps aren't used at low altitude. The referenced thread from 19 years ago doesn't specify. TIA.

EDIT: clarification.

I doubt it, it's probably similar to trains where you pretty much don't do it at the station.

Here's a 737 dumping water overboard ont he ground (you can see it on the large pic just below the aft passenger door in action).



Point is, weight is never static on an aircraft especially on longer flights. Things like CO2 sublimating shouldn't influence trim to any great effect.

It is worthy of note that Pfizer has a major production site in Belgium at Puurs, between Antwerp and Brussels, and dedicated facilities at BRU for the handling and secure shipping of pharma products

https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belg ... -colpaert/

"The vaccine, which is still awaiting the green light from health authorities, is however already being produced at the Belgian site of Puurs, and at Pfizer’s Kalamazoo site in the state of Michigan in the US.

“We have already produced hundreds of thousands of doses at both sites,” Koen Colpaert of Pfizer in Belgium told the Belga press agency."

Pfizer will not supply its vaccine only to the USA, despite Trump's desire to have all Americans in a block at the front of the vaccination queue. Look to Pfizer shipping from BRU elsewhere.

Belgium is host to many multinational pharma companies - BRU will be a key logistics hub in the vaccine distribution

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

They are carrying the unapproved vaccine.

smokeybandit wrote:

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

There's no such thing. The single most important aspect of Operation Warp Speed was to fund the mass production of the vaccine ahead of time so it would be available immediately if/when it gets approved. Normally pharmaceutical companies only start vaccine production after they are approved so as not to incur massive losses if the vaccine is not approved but in this case the tax payer is the one paying for the vaccine production and taking that risk.

jomur wrote:

That would only allow use in the US then. Other countries would also need to approve the use first as well before it can be used elsewhere. Not every one blindly follows US regulators.

1) The vaccine is not produced in the U.S. - hence why this flight originated in Belgium. Both the U.S. and EU authorities tend to give their approval together. The Ebola vaccine was approved by the EU in November 2019 and by the FDA in December 2019.
2) Other countries are doing the same thing, stocking up on vaccines hence why this thread has posts of various flights and airlines.

This is contingency logistics. If the probability is 70% the material will be approved, it justifies setting up a bunch of infrastructure to help distribute this vaccine, potentially saving thousands of lives and helping restart the global economy. EVEN If that probability is not 100%, this is still worth it.

LCDFlight wrote:

This is contingency logistics. If the probability is 70% the material will be approved, it justifies setting up a bunch of infrastructure to help distribute this vaccine, potentially saving thousands of lives and helping restart the global economy. EVEN If that probability is not 100%, this is still worth it.

I think the probability is more like 99.99% but yes.

32andBelow wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

This is contingency logistics. If the probability is 70% the material will be approved, it justifies setting up a bunch of infrastructure to help distribute this vaccine, potentially saving thousands of lives and helping restart the global economy. EVEN If that probability is not 100%, this is still worth it.

I think the probability is more like 99.99% but yes.

I think we can say 100% as of this morning

lightsaber wrote:

Did I miss any others besides: Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, Oxford-AstraZeneca, and Sputnik V for possible distribution in 2020? Lightsaber

Moderna.
Sinovac.

Sinovac is being shipped in some quantity to Brazil.

Here are some news from end of November. Frankfurt Airport is preparing itself for the logistical challenge.

German airport prepares to transport millions of Covid vaccines

In another article (in German) Lufthansa Cargo is stating that they are expecting to transport a large amount of vaccine given the fact that they are expecting a lot of them will be produced in Central Europe. They are also stating that there are already ongoing tenders on which they have bid for.

Impfstoffverteilung: Lufthansa Cargo ist bereit

Is it all dry ice or any powered cooling while in transport? Also what would be the vaccine to dry ice volume ratio to keep at -70C for Pfizer vaccine.

I saw this article and thought these boxes would certainly help air transportation of vaccines given their “minimal” need for dry ice.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavir ... -1.5217120

dtw2hyd wrote:

Is it all dry ice or any powered cooling while in transport? Also what would be the vaccine to dry ice volume ratio to keep at -70C for Pfizer vaccine.

It would be primarily dry ice for Pfizer's vaccine due to it's storage and shipping requirements.

I'm not certain on the exact ratio of dry ice to product, but from my experience in shipping with a biotech firm, for shipping anything that required to be held at -70C such as shipping cryopreserved cells on dry ice, the bulk of the weight was dry ice.

smokeybandit wrote:

deltacto wrote:

this may be a dumb question: if the vaccine is not yet approved, what is United carrying on these flights?

I'm sure there's a gentleman's agreement already with the FDA that they know it'll be approved.

More like there is nothing in the published data that would result in its *not* being approved. There's a question about the AstraZenica trial structure, nothing to do with safety though, that in normal times would probably result in the FDA making them redo a bunch of stuff, just because. But with the rest of the world more than happy to by every drop that gets delayed coming to the US as a result, we'll see how the FDA handles that.

Sam Chui recently uploaded a video about vaccine transport. https://youtu.be/ciLoap2_ic8

Its been reported that SQ Cargo has already started transporting vaccines too; a freigth forwarder said its cargo is being offloaded at AMS (https://theloadstar.com/forwarders-see- ... -take-off/). I imagine the AMS is the pax service A359. I wonder if KLM has started too? However SQ Cargo has not said in public they have started transporting vaccine but have said they are ready and will pritorize capacity for vaccines. Its also unclear where the vaccine is destined for for SQ since Singapore has not signed a contract with the vaccine makers yet (at least from my knowledge from the news)

Can vaccines be transported on the passenger level for pax planes flying cargo in the passenger cabin too or do they have to be loaded into special air cargo containers?

andrew1996 wrote:

Its been reported that SQ Cargo has already started transporting vaccines too; a freigth forwarder said its cargo is being offloaded at AMS (https://theloadstar.com/forwarders-see- ... -take-off/). I imagine the AMS is the pax service A359. I wonder if KLM has started too? However SQ Cargo has not said in public they have started transporting vaccine but have said they are ready and will pritorize capacity for vaccines. Its also unclear where the vaccine is destined for for SQ since Singapore has not signed a contract with the vaccine makers yet (at least from my knowledge from the news)

Can vaccines be transported on the passenger level for pax planes flying cargo in the passenger cabin too or do they have to be loaded into special air cargo containers?

The following article on SQ preparations is behind a paywall:
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... pabilities

Some points:

They are working with regulators to increase the limit for dry ice above the current limit of 3,500kg/flight

They are looking at Singapore to be distribution hub as there is extensive experience as well as existing facilities for handling of pharmaceutical cargo. Last year SQ transported 22,000 ton of pharmaceutical goods

Pharamceutical companies active in Singapore are getting ready to support distribution. This Includes Zuellig Pharma, GlaxoSmithKline, AstraZenica and Johnson & Johnson

When IAG and Lufthansa were contacted by the media, they stated that they are ready to increase flights to Singapore if needed

One other aspect of Operation Warp Speed was to fast-track everything that would need to be produced to actually store and administer the shots.

You need billions of syringes.
You need hundreds of millions of glass vials -- and Corning apparently makes a special glass for certain types of vials.
You need tops and stoppers for the glass vials.
You need billions of alcohol wipes.

All of these are end products that require raw materials and partially-finished products to be transported to places that bring them together. All that has been going on, with zero media attention, for months.

You need a plan to get this stuff where it needs to be so there's no slowdown because somebody forgot to think of this stuff and/or nobody was manufacturing enough of it.

Operation Warp Speed was involved in all of this, and the US Gov't spent $$ to order a ton of this stuff so that it was worth it to manufacturers to make the investments in equipment and raw materials to blast them out quickly.