Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today [04DEC].

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:23 pm

On this day in 1991 possibly the world's greatest airline shut down for good.

Sad news from 29 years ago today. On this day in 1991 the world's most well know airline shut down for good. I was lucky enough to have ridden on Pan Am a few times between Detroit and JFK and JFK to Frankfurt. I flew aboard their L-1011-500, Boeing 747 and Boeing 727-200.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-KarUJQ6v0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_dYxGQwGA
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1454
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:42 pm

It's just a company that went bankrupt, no different to a small store on your local shopping street.... hundreds of other companies go bankrupt across the world every day and the world carries on
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:46 pm

Did PanAm have BOB in its last years?
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1631
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:47 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
It's just a company that went bankrupt, no different to a small store on your local shopping street.... hundreds of other companies go bankrupt across the world every day, people dust themselves down and find a new job and the world carries on


It most certainly is not the same. I think we can all agree that mismanagement at Pan Am led to their ultimate demise. However, the world lost an iconic brand. That's not the same when mom & pop's donut shop goes under. Not saying one is more "important" than the other, but that they're simply not the same as far as cultural impact goes.
Good goes around!
 
Jerseyguy
Posts: 2258
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:48 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
It's just a company that went bankrupt, no different to a small store on your local shopping street.... hundreds of other companies go bankrupt across the world every day and the world carries on

Yes Pan Am...Bob's Shoe Emporium same thing :roll:
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:52 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
It's just a company that went bankrupt, no different to a small store on your local shopping street.... hundreds of other companies go bankrupt across the world every day and the world carries on


This is such an example social conditioning in our new throw away society where nothing is sacred anymore . 50 years ago companies just didn't go bankrupt. Pan Am was and iconic brand and name. So to play it's demise down like that is pretty insensitive to it's employees and those who relied on Pan Am for their travel and well being.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1454
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:58 pm

Pan Am was a company of the period from the 1930s to the 1960s... by the 1980s it had completely lost its way while competitors out performed and by 1991 deserved to die
 
Jerseyguy
Posts: 2258
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:02 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Pan Am was a company of the period from the 1930s to the 1960s... by the 1980s it had completely lost its way while competitors out performed and by 1991 deserved to die

Even if we agreed with your premise, there would still be cause for saddness about the demise of a once great airline even if it had gone on too long as you say.

klm617 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
It's just a company that went bankrupt, no different to a small store on your local shopping street.... hundreds of other companies go bankrupt across the world every day and the world carries on


This is such an example social conditioning in our new throw away society where nothing is sacred anymore . 50 years ago companies just didn't go bankrupt. Pan Am was and iconic brand and name. So to play it's demise down like that is pretty insensitive to it's employees and those who relied on Pan Am for their travel and well being.


Apparently no one gets nostalgia anymore either
Last edited by Jerseyguy on Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:03 pm

Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1631
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:06 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Pan Am was a company of the period from the 1930s to the 1960s... by the 1980s it had completely lost its way while competitors out performed and by 1991 deserved to die


Deserved to die?? Wow, piece of work. Thousands of people worked there. How about deserved competent management?
Good goes around!
 
Jerseyguy
Posts: 2258
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:11 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?

Actually AA has gone away as far how its run its really America West in disguise. I'm sure the employees are doing their best to create a great airline but they have to work within what the company gives them.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:18 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
It's just a company that went bankrupt, no different to a small store on your local shopping street.... hundreds of other companies go bankrupt across the world every day and the world carries on


What a sad, throwaway comment. Pan Am was an institution. It pioneered modern air travel and had many firsts, and was the unofficial, official US flag carrier for a long time. Unfortunately, it was grossly mismanaged, slow to adapt to the changed competitive landscape that emerged after Deregulation, and limped along for a decade before it finally went into liquidation after a massive asset sale of its crown jewels (TPAC network, LHR slots, Northeast Shuttle, TATL routes). What was left for a few months was a joke of a business plan with a focus on Miami and Latin America. Still, it was an icon of American business, entrepreneurship, aviation, and post-war success. Yes, the world carried on without Pan Am, but almost 30 years later, it still holds a special place in aviation and that's why it is a celebrated brand.
 
spartanmjf
Posts: 530
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:31 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:20 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?


Of the three, I would say that AA (in reality HP/US) and UA have already gone away and are shadows of their former selves. DL is only slightly better.,
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:25 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Pan Am was a company of the period from the 1930s to the 1960s... by the 1980s it had completely lost its way while competitors out performed and by 1991 deserved to die


Deserved to die?? Wow, piece of work. Thousands of people worked there. How about deserved competent management?


The entity deserved to die as it was a mismanaged mess that was out of touch with reality. It would have been nice if Pan Am had not gone down the rabbit hole of failure, but since it did, it met its end.

No one here has said that they are happy that people lost their jobs. Step down from the manufactured outrage about points that were not made.
Last edited by Antarius on Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:26 pm

Jerseyguy wrote:
Apparently no one gets nostalgia anymore either


Nostalgia is important, but only for things that are good. Remembering the glory days of Pan Am is nostalgia.

The last 20 years was an embarrassment to the brand and it finally being put out of its misery was a good thing. I don't understand being nostalgic about something that sucks.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
sprxUSA
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:29 pm

Jerseyguy wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
It's just a company that went bankrupt, no different to a small store on your local shopping street.... hundreds of other companies go bankrupt across the world every day and the world carries on

Yes Pan Am...Bob's Shoe Emporium same thing :roll:


Wait! What? Bob's Shoe Emporium shut down?? Nooooo , I got all my moccasins from them since 1962. Oh hold on, that was Jim's Shoe Emporium. Bob's brother LOL.

Isn't Pan AM XII about to start up in Equatorial Guinea offering nonstop A380s to Harare, Zimbabwe?
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:29 pm

Think about big stores that collapsed in the U.S. Circuit City, Montgomery Ward, Mervyn's, Service Merchandise, etc. Do we miss them?
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:29 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?



No because the airlines of today can't even compare to what the airlines of yesterday set forth as far as customer service like their older ancestors did. Whether you fly DL, COM US, NK or any other it's basically all the same. The US3 have been allowed to grow to big and powerful in the market today. There is a culture now of fly by our rules or sit home. To really understand this you would have had to have flown in to 60s and 70s when airlines cared about the product they put out rather than the culture today of how cheap can we make it.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:30 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Think about big stores that collapsed in the U.S. Circuit City, Montgomery Ward, Mervyn's, Service Merchandise, etc. Do we miss them?


Very much so.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Max Q
Posts: 8984
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:31 pm

klm617 wrote:
On this day in 1991 possibly the world's greatest airline shut down for good.

Sad news from 29 years ago today. On this day in 1991 the world's most well know airline shut down for good. I was lucky enough to have ridden on Pan Am a few times between Detroit and JFK and JFK to Frankfurt. I flew aboard their L-1011-500, Boeing 747 and Boeing 727-200.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-KarUJQ6v0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_dYxGQwGA



Well

PanAm was a great airline but the ‘worlds greatest’ I don’t think so


Not sure If any one airline can claim that title
PAA was a pioneer in many ways with its epic route system, gestated in the flying boat days, the launch customer of the 747, the iconic Pan Am building in Manhattan, all
powerful images and reminders of what used to be


But that’s the point, they’re gone and they spent decades getting ‘ready to leave’


PAA made a business out of going out of business, they sold off asset after asset, refinanced, worked out deals, raised cash anyway they could. It was an agonizingly long, slow death.


And in the meantime employee morale nosedived, service standards were abysmal, aircraft were filthy and ancient


That death spiral went on for a very long time, so long it became the real image and reputation of the airline and damaged its culture permanently



Very sad they went out of business but it was worse to see the terrible deterioration of the brand over such an extended period


They were great once but that was a long time ago and a long time before they finally went under



Most of their valuable route system and some of their fleet ended up with healthy, strong carriers like United and Delta and this was the best possible outcome, unfortunately not for many of their employees but at least a decent sized part of PAA survived under a different name



I don’t think it’s possible to name one airline that’s the greatest in the world, past or present, there’s a handful of exceptional carriers that are the best though, they’re so good that picking one is impossible and that’s a good thing
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
twinotter
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:36 pm

It's not like the loss of, say, the Oldsmobile brand. But still pretty sad. Let's all have a good cry.
 
PRAirbus
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:59 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:49 pm

Curious to know about Pan Am's fleet count at the end in 1991? Were their aircraft interiors in bad shape? Wasn't DL supposed to buy their Latin America operation?
 
UA444
Posts: 3090
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:49 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Did PanAm have BOB in its last years?

Buy on board is a post 9/11 thing
 
f4f3a
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:07 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:58 pm

Pan am was once one of the world's most recognisable brands . Unfortunately once Juan Trippe retired it definitely lost its way . I think de regulation really was unfair to them . When domestic carriers were allowed to start flying overseas routes but Pan am weren't given domestic rights, it put then at a massive disadvantage. The merger with National was a huge mistake as well and probably was the final straw that would break the camel's back .
I do find it amazing that both iconic brands and rivals of pan am and TWA failed to make it. The airline business is most definitely a tough one !
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:15 pm

klm617 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?



No because the airlines of today can't even compare to what the airlines of yesterday set forth as far as customer service like their older ancestors did. Whether you fly DL, COM US, NK or any other it's basically all the same. The US3 have been allowed to grow to big and powerful in the market today. There is a culture now of fly by our rules or sit home. To really understand this you would have had to have flown in to 60s and 70s when airlines cared about the product they put out rather than the culture today of how cheap can we make it.

In the days of deregulation, service level was the only way to differentiate from competitors. Fares were government controlled, and you paid through the nose for the privilege of flying
Last edited by FlyingElvii on Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:15 pm

By the time it shut down, Pan AM was a shadow of it's former self. I think much of their demise was due to the purchase of National and the failure to properly integrate National's route network to maximize the feeders into the international network side.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9631
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:19 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Pan Am was an institution. It pioneered modern air travel and had many firsts, and was the unofficial, official US flag carrier for a long time. Unfortunately, it was grossly mismanaged, slow to adapt to the changed competitive landscape that emerged after Deregulation, and limped along for a decade before it finally went into liquidation after a massive asset sale of its crown jewels (TPAC network, LHR slots, Northeast Shuttle, TATL routes). What was left for a few months was a joke of a business plan with a focus on Miami and Latin America.


It was a creature of the narrow bilaterals times that didn't adequately adapt to a modern era, in effect, 'You'll fly us and like it because there's no one else.' It didn't have to compete on price or routes. The services it provided, and the wage rates the structure supported, were functions of monopoly power that depressed demand. Do people mourn 1980s Aeroflot, once the largest passenger carrier in the world? Imagine if the U.S. Internal Revenue Service had a monopoly on tax prep software and tax consulting services.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14438
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:46 pm

I was lucky enough to get to fly Pan Am, around Christmas 1983 I flew EWR-TPA on a Pan Am DC-10. Strangely the return TPA-EWR flight was a Pan Am L1011. Several members of the New York Yankees were on the return flight including Yogi Berra who was the manager at them time.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
lifecomm
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:29 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:00 pm

f4f3a wrote:
Pan am was once one of the world's most recognizable brands . Unfortunately once Juan Trippe retired it definitely lost its way . I think de regulation really was unfair to them . When domestic carriers were allowed to start flying overseas routes but Pan am weren't given domestic rights, it put then at a massive disadvantage. The merger with National was a huge mistake as well and probably was the final straw that would break the camel's back .
I do find it amazing that both iconic brands and rivals of pan am and TWA failed to make it. The airline business is most definitely a tough one !


Indeed. I have thought that a merger of TWA & Pan Am could have worked. Yes, the airline biz is pretty tough.
 
User avatar
Rookie87
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:02 pm

PANAM was an icon of aviation. I never had the chance to fly them as I'm too young to have had the chance to but, I've read a lot about them and respect them.
To sit and type about their demise instead of just recognizing what made them an icon in aviation history truly speaks of the lack of love for aviation some of you have on this site.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?



No because the airlines of today can't even compare to what the airlines of yesterday set forth as far as customer service like their older ancestors did. Whether you fly DL, COM US, NK or any other it's basically all the same. The US3 have been allowed to grow to big and powerful in the market today. There is a culture now of fly by our rules or sit home. To really understand this you would have had to have flown in to 60s and 70s when airlines cared about the product they put out rather than the culture today of how cheap can we make it.


That's a mighty elitist attitude. The reason they cared about the product was because that was the only way to differentiate themselves. Fares were controlled, were high and the number of people who could fly were very limited.

This "how cheap" attitude is akin to complaining about Courtyard Marriotts and yearning for the day when there was nothing but a handful of Ritz-Carlton's around.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
b4thefall
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 7:12 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:26 pm

Antarius wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?



No because the airlines of today can't even compare to what the airlines of yesterday set forth as far as customer service like their older ancestors did. Whether you fly DL, COM US, NK or any other it's basically all the same. The US3 have been allowed to grow to big and powerful in the market today. There is a culture now of fly by our rules or sit home. To really understand this you would have had to have flown in to 60s and 70s when airlines cared about the product they put out rather than the culture today of how cheap can we make it.


That's a mighty elitist attitude. The reason they cared about the product was because that was the only way to differentiate themselves. Fares were controlled, were high and the number of people who could fly were very limited.

This "how cheap" attitude is akin to complaining about Courtyard Marriotts and yearning for the day when there was nothing but a handful of Ritz-Carlton's around.



Yes. If things today were still the way they were in "the good old days" , the vast majority of people on this site (including myself) would rarely, if ever, be able to afford to set foot on an aircraft.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4846
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:28 pm

What was the last flight that operated before they shut down?
 
catiii
Posts: 3886
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:29 pm

klm617 wrote:
On this day in 1991 possibly the world's greatest airline shut down for good.



They were never that good...it was only the perception of them that was good.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:29 pm

b4thefall wrote:
Antarius wrote:
klm617 wrote:


No because the airlines of today can't even compare to what the airlines of yesterday set forth as far as customer service like their older ancestors did. Whether you fly DL, COM US, NK or any other it's basically all the same. The US3 have been allowed to grow to big and powerful in the market today. There is a culture now of fly by our rules or sit home. To really understand this you would have had to have flown in to 60s and 70s when airlines cared about the product they put out rather than the culture today of how cheap can we make it.


That's a mighty elitist attitude. The reason they cared about the product was because that was the only way to differentiate themselves. Fares were controlled, were high and the number of people who could fly were very limited.

This "how cheap" attitude is akin to complaining about Courtyard Marriotts and yearning for the day when there was nothing but a handful of Ritz-Carlton's around.



Yes. If things today were still the way they were in "the good old days" , the vast majority of people on this site (including myself) would rarely, if ever, be able to afford to set foot on an aircraft.


If they just increased ticket prices by $10 by including a meal, that would be out of reach for you?
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:33 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
b4thefall wrote:
Antarius wrote:

That's a mighty elitist attitude. The reason they cared about the product was because that was the only way to differentiate themselves. Fares were controlled, were high and the number of people who could fly were very limited.

This "how cheap" attitude is akin to complaining about Courtyard Marriotts and yearning for the day when there was nothing but a handful of Ritz-Carlton's around.



Yes. If things today were still the way they were in "the good old days" , the vast majority of people on this site (including myself) would rarely, if ever, be able to afford to set foot on an aircraft.


If they just increased ticket prices by $10 by including a meal, that would be out of reach for you?


That's not what made Pan Am special. It was the end to end experience, from front to back. Long haul on the US3 gives you a meal right now - does that make it better? No.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
b4thefall
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 7:12 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:33 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
b4thefall wrote:
Antarius wrote:

That's a mighty elitist attitude. The reason they cared about the product was because that was the only way to differentiate themselves. Fares were controlled, were high and the number of people who could fly were very limited.

This "how cheap" attitude is akin to complaining about Courtyard Marriotts and yearning for the day when there was nothing but a handful of Ritz-Carlton's around.



Yes. If things today were still the way they were in "the good old days" , the vast majority of people on this site (including myself) would rarely, if ever, be able to afford to set foot on an aircraft.


If they just increased ticket prices by $10 by including a meal, that would be out of reach for you?


The ticket prices in those days were a heck of a lot higher than the equivalent of $10 compared to prices now.
 
catiii
Posts: 3886
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:37 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Pan Am was an institution. Unfortunately, it was grossly mismanaged, slow to adapt to the changed competitive landscape that emerged after Deregulation, and limped along for a decade before it finally went into liquidation after a massive asset sale of its crown jewels (TPAC network, LHR slots, Northeast Shuttle, TATL routes). What was left for a few months was a joke of a business plan with a focus on Miami and Latin America. Still, it was an icon of American business, entrepreneurship, aviation, and post-war success.


Look at the contradictions in this post. "It was an institution!" "It was grossly mismanaged!"

"It limped along before liquidation!" "It was an icon of American business!"
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:37 pm

Antarius wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
b4thefall wrote:


Yes. If things today were still the way they were in "the good old days" , the vast majority of people on this site (including myself) would rarely, if ever, be able to afford to set foot on an aircraft.


If they just increased ticket prices by $10 by including a meal, that would be out of reach for you?


That's not what made Pan Am special. It was the end to end experience, from front to back. Long haul on the US3 gives you a meal right now - does that make it better? No.


Think internationally on US airlines. Isn't their product on par with the "better" airlines? What is lacking?
 
catiii
Posts: 3886
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:40 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Let's say if AA, UA, or DL went away. Would anyone be sad?


Yes. In many ways, all three are far more iconic and pioneering than Pan Am. Just because Pan Am was first, doesn't mean it was the best.

And anyway, they all get points for surviving.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5207
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:54 pm

Blerg wrote:
What was the last flight that operated before they shut down?


The final flight was Barbados to Miami on Clipper Goodwill, a Boeing 727-221 Advanced, N368PA.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
Noshow
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:05 pm

Is it true that their decline started with having ordered all those early 747 just before the oil price hike?
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8944
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:14 pm

They would have been absolutely incredible to fly with in the 30s to the 60s. The Flying Boats provided a degree of luxury not found in any heavier-than-air transport since, not even Singapore Suites (and one way SFO HKG was $20k in 2020 money, that’s how exclusive it was). And a 707 down through the South Pacific to Sydney with 30 passengers, or the hop-on-hop-off round the world service that operated daily in both directions JFK LHR FRA IST BEY THR KHI DEL BKK HKG HND HNL SFO (from memory) — miraculous. But the 747 killed it. Pan Am was never geared to transport 300 people on one aeroplane.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22420
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:18 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
PANAM was an icon of aviation. I never had the chance to fly them as I'm too young to have had the chance to but, I've read a lot about them and respect them.
To sit and type about their demise instead of just recognizing what made them an icon in aviation history truly speaks of the lack of love for aviation some of you have on this site.

Agreed. Everyone should read Skygods. PanAm was something this disposable society cannot understand.

PanAm was one if the brands globally. Them failing wouldn't have been say Apple, but it would be the equivalent if Starbucks ir Netflix failing. It was a big deal.

Lightsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
PANAM was an icon of aviation. I never had the chance to fly them as I'm too young to have had the chance to but, I've read a lot about them and respect them.
To sit and type about their demise instead of just recognizing what made them an icon in aviation history truly speaks of the lack of love for aviation some of you have on this site.

Agreed. Everyone should read Skygods. PanAm was something this disposable society cannot understand.

PanAm was one if the brands globally. Them failing wouldn't have been say Apple, but it would be the equivalent if Starbucks ir Netflix failing. It was a big deal.

Lightsaber


I think it would be compared to if Coca Cola went bankrupt. I think in their heyday Pan Am was just as huge as Coca Cola as far as iconic brands go.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Topic Author
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:28 pm

Noshow wrote:
Is it true that their decline started with having ordered all those early 747 just before the oil price hike?



And they ordered way too many. But the time it came to replace them they were two broke to buy more fuel efficient aircraft. What if they had kept the National DC-10s in favor of the 747's. I am sure at the time used 747's brought a pretty good return. Then they could have built their long haul fleet around the A310 and the DC10. Perhaps they dumped them due to the anti DC10 stigma of that time. Also another what if could they have done better if they South America and kept their Trans Atlantic routes.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Agreed. Everyone should read Skygods. PanAm was something this disposable society cannot understand.


I disagree. We understand it, but we also recognize that PanAm was disposed of. If Pan Am was really as iconic and everlasting, it would still be around, innovating, reinventing etc. But it isn't. And it was run into the ground long long before the supposed "disposable society" came about.

klm617 wrote:
I think it would be compared to if Coca Cola went bankrupt. I think in their heyday Pan Am was just as huge as Coca Cola as far as iconic brands go.


Its closer to Sears. A once glorious icon that was a terminally ill patient until it was finally put out of its misery.

Coca Cola has evolved and continues to thrive.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
blooc350
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:50 pm

How appropriate because Fedex is delivering this guy to me today!

Image
 
User avatar
ClipperYankee
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:54 pm

klm617 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
PANAM was an icon of aviation. I never had the chance to fly them as I'm too young to have had the chance to but, I've read a lot about them and respect them.
To sit and type about their demise instead of just recognizing what made them an icon in aviation history truly speaks of the lack of love for aviation some of you have on this site.

Agreed. Everyone should read Skygods. PanAm was something this disposable society cannot understand.

PanAm was one if the brands globally. Them failing wouldn't have been say Apple, but it would be the equivalent if Starbucks ir Netflix failing. It was a big deal.

Lightsaber


I think it would be compared to if Coca Cola went bankrupt. I think in their heyday Pan Am was just as huge as Coca Cola as far as iconic brands go.


I remember reading that at one time Pan Am had the world's second greatest brand recognition with their 'blue meatball,' with only the Coca Cola logo ahead and the Mercedes Benz tri-legged logo in third.
I, for one, still miss them greatly and in my book a 707 in their colors is as elegant as an airliner ever got.
707/717/727/737-100,200,300,400,500,700,800/747-200,300,400/757-200,300/767-300,400
772/788&9/DC3/DC6/DC8/DC9/DC10/MD80s/L1011/A300/A319,320,321/A332&3/A343/A359/A388/
BAE146/ATP/ATR42/DHC2,3,7,8/S340B/CRJ200,700,900/E140,145,175,190/F70,100/B1900
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1454
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Pan Am shuts down 29 years ago today.

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:57 pm

All through the 1980s, Pan Am was in decline. For a person to have seen Pan Am in when it was a leader (maybe 1970) and understand about how customer service is a differentiator between companies, that person would have been perhaps 20+ years old in 1970 - so born in 1950 or earlier; in 1991 they would have been aged over 41, and in 2020 would now be aged over 70
In 1991, plenty of people remembered Pan Am at its peak
In 2020 however, to well over 85% of people alive in the world, the "good old days" of Pan Am was before they were born

Pan Am was not some great heroic adventure. They were not trying to boldly go where no one had gone before. It was not a good v evil war like WW2. They did not seek to solve great injustices in society. It was a profit-seeking transport company that did things for money

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ADL77W, AmricanShamrok, B757236GT, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], dallas6940, Eiszeit, floridaflyboy, krod031, lisbonlad1, MohawkWeekend, MrHMSH, normie999, Qf648, System07, tomaheath, VictorKilo, Wolfman, Woodreau and 165 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos