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MohawkWeekend
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:23 am

we can argue all day My last post on this subject is that it's fast,tough and reliable. None of it's competitiors were all 3. It just was too small and late to the party . Perhaps we should ask the US Special Forces who use them -

C-146A Wolfhound

Published March 17, 2021
C-146A Wolfhounds sit on the flightline at Duke Field, Fla., Oct. 30, 2019. Air commandos from the Air Force Reserve Command's 919th Special Operations Wing work alongside active-duty members and contractors to ensure the C-146As are able to execute missions in austere environments around the globe on short notice. (U.S. Air Force photo by Senior Airman Dylan Gentile)

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets ... wolfhound/
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:00 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Perhaps an option is if Cessna or Textron built a 250 - 300 mph, hybrid plane (say 20 seats) and pushed for single pilot operation. PC-12's and Techams aren't the answer. Nor is Cessna's reincarnation of the CASA 212

Absent a real practical alternative now, the SkyCourier will have to be it for the rest of the world...hopefully, demand could justify a pressurized U.S. pax version later on.....

https://media.txtav.com/197745-momentum ... est-begins

Image
https://d21buns5ku92am.cloudfront.net/6 ... 681083.jpg

* Certification of the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-65SC engine through Transport Canada Civil Aviation (TCCA), with Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certification expected soon.


Unless this segment of the market sees its future in electric WEVs or seaplanes.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 82.article

https://www.flightglobal.com/business-a ... 88.article
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:50 pm

The Cessna might be the plane (tough and reliable) but they (airlines and Cessna) should push for single pilot operation and pressurization in the interim. Loud inside and low in the scud are not popular with Americans.

A hybrid (battery and APU) using the same fuselage and 50 MPH faster would be even better.
 
texl1649
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Noshow wrote:
The Do 328 is still a very modern and capable base design to start with. It will be used as a test platform for some major scientific research project concerning electric flight in Germany with existing state funding. At the same time the USAF might need some replacement for their Do 328 fleet one day. This all forms the "perfect storm" to update engines and cockpit and target the regional aircraft market with some fast and efficient aircraft on a limited budget at the same time.
I could imagine that this aircraft might make sense for the German Luftwaffe as well as a small transport. After retiring the Transall they will have only four engined C-130J and A400M for tactical transport.

The issue is the Do 328 needs newer, more fuel efficient engines, subsystems (in particular predictive maintenance), and the wing is heavy by CFRP standards.

While there is argument over the US market, the reality is so much regional flying is under US scope that it can make or break sales of aircraft. There are two thresholds impossed by the requirement of an ATP for regional pilots:
1. 50 seats
2. 76 seats with the notorious 86,000lb MTOW limit.

The current 50 seaters are not efficient enough, this imposses a high cost per passenger which is, in my opinion, resulting in their fadding out.

The current 76 seaters were marginal vs 738/A329CEO. As the A220, NEO, and MAX enter the fleet, the mainline costs will drop while regional costs are stagnant.

The Do 328 needs an obvious niche. I do not see hiw it could be evolved to fit a US niche. While there is regional traffic elsewhere, I am of the opinion that if ghe Spacejet M100 had worked out, it would have pushed out turboprops from the 76 to (eventually) 100 seat market and made competition for the Do 328 worse. Much worse.

At yhis time I see better market prospects for the M100 and I don't think the Spacejet will return.

All aircraft always compete against the adjacent size aircraft. Sometimes the efficiency shifts so much, one category shrinks away. The ATP rules did that to sub 50 seaters in the USA. The ULCC model of 2x to 5x weekly frequency allows larger aurcraft to serve smaller markets.

I'm just not seeing a huge market available, in particular with Breeze and Bamboo flying cheap used E190. This is an unusually tough aircraft sales market.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/j ... NewsSearch

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... house-e190

I'm an aviation fan, but every aircraft must be designed to have economic advantage in a niche. Some are at range, some on frequency. The Do 328 needs new engines and subsystems to sell, in my opinion.

Lightsaber


There are a lot of planes out there (even assuming many are parked) that will need to be replaced/upgraded, and ATR doesn’t do all of this well;

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... enaissance

According to Deutsche Aircraft, the aircraft is projected to deliver economical specific fuel consumption of 2.6 liters per 100 km per passenger. It will also be able to operate from just 1,000 meters (3,280 feet) of runway at a top speed of 324 ktas and at altitudes of up to 30,000 feet.


This makes sense to me;

The D328eco’s fuselage will feature new composite materials. The aircraft will be built using the latest REACH requirements for environmental sustainability covering all materials and manufacturing processes. As part of this commitment, the new Leipzig factory will operate to the latest Industry 4.0 methods and be entirely paperless.

“We expect to see a quantum leap in business travelers and consumers who will start to look hard at the green credentials of the aircraft they fly in,” Jackson said. “There are hundreds of aircraft in the 30- to 40-seat class and we see a strong replacement market opportunity.”

More broadly, Jackson said that there are around 3,800 aging regional airliners in the sub-50-seat class and many of these types are no longer in production. “The business case for this new aircraft remains strong and it may be that the long-term impact of the current pandemic is that it could result in market conditions that support smaller aircraft flying longer sectors,” he concluded. “We believe the short-haul market will be the first to recover.”


Also, I’d note that NASA (err, or rather Lockheed) did build a composite fuselage 328 already, not sure if that experience could provide any advantages/cost savings as the new owners are making substantive changes; I think it’s use in this program demonstrates how this platform can/could be further developed with advanced materials/systems.

https://www.avgeekery.com/the-carbon-co ... airlifter/

Image
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:42 pm

It seems Deutsche Aircraft has its game plan sorted out.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 05.article


This could be a more serious and altogether realistic try for the Teutonic OEM than the overly ambitious -28Jet series of yore.....

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https://alchetron.com/cdn/fairchild-dor ... ze-750.jpg
 
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Polot
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:51 pm

Devilfish wrote:
This could be a more serious and altogether realistic try for the Teutonic OEM than the overly ambitious -28Jet series of yore.....

Well their timeline is certainly not realistic. They, a new company building a new production line from scratch who are still in the process of selecting suppliers, are expecting certification and EIS in 2025 (only 3.5 years away)? That’s not going to happen.

The 728 wasn’t overly ambitious. The company was just broke.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:59 pm

Polot wrote:
The 728 wasn’t overly ambitious. The company was just broke.

By 'overly ambitious' I meant FD's aim of launching a whole family of jets.....

Image
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... sIAhTaX4aU


A pity...the 728JET seemed a good follow up to the short-lived Avro RJ85/100 and could've gone on to serial production and achieve decent sales especially in Europe......

Image
https://static.tildacdn.com/tild3938-65 ... er728_.jpg
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:38 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Polot wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
I think they can because the 328 was ahead of its time too.

What exactly about the Dornier 328 was ahead of its time?

Just because you like an aircraft and it wasn’t successful doesn’t mean it was ahead of its time. The 328 had plenty of contemporaries of similar size and economics. Some were more successful (Saab 340B, EMB-120), some where not (BAe Jetstream 41).


The DO-328 was fitted with a much more modern wing and powerplant than the other aircraft you mentioned. It's wing was advanced to the point that they put jet engines on a version. The 328 cruised 100 mph faster than the SAAB 340 and 50 mph faster than the EMB and Jetstream. And it didn't have the EMB's poor safety record

It was very much like the SAAB 2000 and Dash 400's though. If the regionals wanted speed they went with RJ's.

The Do-328 was about 50kn faster than the ATR, and the Do-328JET 150kn faster; yet, both are out of production (and mostly out of operation) while the ATR keep trucking along... Again, it says all that needs to be said about the market.
 
IADCA
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:05 am

WayexTDI wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Polot wrote:
What exactly about the Dornier 328 was ahead of its time?

Just because you like an aircraft and it wasn’t successful doesn’t mean it was ahead of its time. The 328 had plenty of contemporaries of similar size and economics. Some were more successful (Saab 340B, EMB-120), some where not (BAe Jetstream 41).


The DO-328 was fitted with a much more modern wing and powerplant than the other aircraft you mentioned. It's wing was advanced to the point that they put jet engines on a version. The 328 cruised 100 mph faster than the SAAB 340 and 50 mph faster than the EMB and Jetstream. And it didn't have the EMB's poor safety record

It was very much like the SAAB 2000 and Dash 400's though. If the regionals wanted speed they went with RJ's.

The Do-328 was about 50kn faster than the ATR, and the Do-328JET 150kn faster; yet, both are out of production (and mostly out of operation) while the ATR keep trucking along... Again, it says all that needs to be said about the market.


Well, one thing it says to me is that having Airbus' money behind one is a huge advantage. See the CS100/300 versus the A221/3.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:42 am

IADCA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:

The DO-328 was fitted with a much more modern wing and powerplant than the other aircraft you mentioned. It's wing was advanced to the point that they put jet engines on a version. The 328 cruised 100 mph faster than the SAAB 340 and 50 mph faster than the EMB and Jetstream. And it didn't have the EMB's poor safety record

It was very much like the SAAB 2000 and Dash 400's though. If the regionals wanted speed they went with RJ's.

The Do-328 was about 50kn faster than the ATR, and the Do-328JET 150kn faster; yet, both are out of production (and mostly out of operation) while the ATR keep trucking along... Again, it says all that needs to be said about the market.


Well, one thing it says to me is that having Airbus' money behind one is a huge advantage. See the CS100/300 versus the A221/3.

How's that? If the ATR was such an inferior frame as people seem to infer on this thread, it wouldn't sell.
And, remember that Airbus has refused in the recent years to pour any money in ATR that they would have needed to develop an ATR92-or-whatever-it-was-to-be-called.

Unless... are you insinuating that Airbus is bribing the airlines or that ATR is dumping the plane?
Remember: ATR is a 50/50 joint-venture between Airbus and Leonardo. Airbus is not alone in this company.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:41 am

WayexTDI wrote:
IADCA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
The Do-328 was about 50kn faster than the ATR, and the Do-328JET 150kn faster; yet, both are out of production (and mostly out of operation) while the ATR keep trucking along... Again, it says all that needs to be said about the market.


Well, one thing it says to me is that having Airbus' money behind one is a huge advantage. See the CS100/300 versus the A221/3.

How's that? If the ATR was such an inferior frame as people seem to infer on this thread, it wouldn't sell.
And, remember that Airbus has refused in the recent years to pour any money in ATR that they would have needed to develop an ATR92-or-whatever-it-was-to-be-called.

Unless... are you insinuating that Airbus is bribing the airlines or that ATR is dumping the plane?
Remember: ATR is a 50/50 joint-venture between Airbus and Leonardo. Airbus is not alone in this company.

Not to rain on ATR's parade, but if you look at their (already former) competition -- it's not that they had vastly inferior products. Fokkers, DHC's, ARJX, Fairchild-Dornier, SAAB's, BAE turboprops, Aero/Let, An turboprops, Ilyushin -- they had their strong and weak points, detractors and committed users. What united them was a lack of staying power -- either just not enough capital (most), or unwillingness to commit main company capital to keep things going (BAE, SAAB).
In the meantime, ATR continues to chug along, undisturbed with daily grind of scraping pennies together, to keep receivers from taking over.
Doesn't mean that ATR product is inferior. Doesn't also mean that it's perfect. It's just run in a more consistent, better capitalized environment, and that's a huge advantage. As a saying goes, variously attributed to different football (association football, of course) coaches, "order beats class".
Of course, it comes with a price. For example, as you correctly point out, just identifying a niche (ATR-92) and having the cashflow to be able to afford to try to borrow enough to launch the project, doesn't mean that you will be allowed to do it.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:05 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
IADCA wrote:

Well, one thing it says to me is that having Airbus' money behind one is a huge advantage. See the CS100/300 versus the A221/3.

How's that? If the ATR was such an inferior frame as people seem to infer on this thread, it wouldn't sell.
And, remember that Airbus has refused in the recent years to pour any money in ATR that they would have needed to develop an ATR92-or-whatever-it-was-to-be-called.

Unless... are you insinuating that Airbus is bribing the airlines or that ATR is dumping the plane?
Remember: ATR is a 50/50 joint-venture between Airbus and Leonardo. Airbus is not alone in this company.

Not to rain on ATR's parade, but if you look at their (already former) competition -- it's not that they had vastly inferior products. Fokkers, DHC's, ARJX, Fairchild-Dornier, SAAB's, BAE turboprops, Aero/Let, An turboprops, Ilyushin -- they had their strong and weak points, detractors and committed users. What united them was a lack of staying power -- either just not enough capital (most), or unwillingness to commit main company capital to keep things going (BAE, SAAB).
In the meantime, ATR continues to chug along, undisturbed with daily grind of scraping pennies together, to keep receivers from taking over.
Doesn't mean that ATR product is inferior. Doesn't also mean that it's perfect. It's just run in a more consistent, better capitalized environment, and that's a huge advantage. As a saying goes, variously attributed to different football (association football, of course) coaches, "order beats class".
Of course, it comes with a price. For example, as you correctly point out, just identifying a niche (ATR-92) and having the cashflow to be able to afford to try to borrow enough to launch the project, doesn't mean that you will be allowed to do it.

Good points.
I'd venture to say that SAAB, BAE, Antonov and Ilyushin had strong finances (thanks to their military branches) and DHC (Bombardier) was printing money with the CRJs.
I think all just decided to rest on their laurels and barely updated their offers, while ATR made small improvements here and there throughout the years to keep the ATR (more) relevant to their customers needs. DHC decided to launch the (quite different) Q400, but went the route of higher speed at the cost of complexity and fuel consumption.
 
IADCA
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:12 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
IADCA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
The Do-328 was about 50kn faster than the ATR, and the Do-328JET 150kn faster; yet, both are out of production (and mostly out of operation) while the ATR keep trucking along... Again, it says all that needs to be said about the market.


Well, one thing it says to me is that having Airbus' money behind one is a huge advantage. See the CS100/300 versus the A221/3.

How's that? If the ATR was such an inferior frame as people seem to infer on this thread, it wouldn't sell.
And, remember that Airbus has refused in the recent years to pour any money in ATR that they would have needed to develop an ATR92-or-whatever-it-was-to-be-called.

Unless... are you insinuating that Airbus is bribing the airlines or that ATR is dumping the plane?
Remember: ATR is a 50/50 joint-venture between Airbus and Leonardo. Airbus is not alone in this company.


And the A220 is also a 50/50 JV, yet the project only took off once Airbus threw enough financial muscle behind it to ensure to customers that it would be viable long term, weather the early money-losing frames, and wasn't going to leave them with orphan planes and no parts support.

As the poster who already responded to you pointed out, the best frame doesn't always win. The ancillary stuff matters: flexibility to offer discounts to gain sales momentum, parts support, even a trade-in facility to provide liquidity to the buyer.

WayexTDI wrote:

Good points.
I'd venture to say that SAAB, BAE, Antonov and Ilyushin had strong finances (thanks to their military branches) and DHC (Bombardier) was printing money with the CRJs.
I think all just decided to rest on their laurels and barely updated their offers, while ATR made small improvements here and there throughout the years to keep the ATR (more) relevant to their customers needs. DHC decided to launch the (quite different) Q400, but went the route of higher speed at the cost of complexity and fuel consumption.


It's not that they weren't trying to improve the planes. They didn't have access to the R&D capital to do so, whether that was because they literally couldn't get the funds or because their parent companies cut them off. People forget that even small improvements are expensive. You still have to test-fly them, for example, which means you need a testing frame and to actually fly it. That isn't cheap and it amortizes much more comfortably against a larger company.

Airbus has proven now several times - with ATR and now with the C-Series - to be willing and able to make the investments necessary to keep projects viable that would be much worse off without them. Good for them, but let's not pretend it doesn't make a difference.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:20 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Polot wrote:
What exactly about the Dornier 328 was ahead of its time?

Just because you like an aircraft and it wasn’t successful doesn’t mean it was ahead of its time. The 328 had plenty of contemporaries of similar size and economics. Some were more successful (Saab 340B, EMB-120), some where not (BAe Jetstream 41).


The DO-328 was fitted with a much more modern wing and powerplant than the other aircraft you mentioned. It's wing was advanced to the point that they put jet engines on a version. The 328 cruised 100 mph faster than the SAAB 340 and 50 mph faster than the EMB and Jetstream. And it didn't have the EMB's poor safety record

It was very much like the SAAB 2000 and Dash 400's though. If the regionals wanted speed they went with RJ's.

The Do-328 was about 50kn faster than the ATR, and the Do-328JET 150kn faster; yet, both are out of production (and mostly out of operation) while the ATR keep trucking along... Again, it says all that needs to be said about the market.


The 328 has a low seating capacity compared to the ATR, that's the main reason the ATR is selling. Airlines do not want to go back to the days of small planes, if an airport cannot profitably fill an RJ, it's not worth the costs involved to provide the service.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:37 pm

airlineworker wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:

The DO-328 was fitted with a much more modern wing and powerplant than the other aircraft you mentioned. It's wing was advanced to the point that they put jet engines on a version. The 328 cruised 100 mph faster than the SAAB 340 and 50 mph faster than the EMB and Jetstream. And it didn't have the EMB's poor safety record

It was very much like the SAAB 2000 and Dash 400's though. If the regionals wanted speed they went with RJ's.

The Do-328 was about 50kn faster than the ATR, and the Do-328JET 150kn faster; yet, both are out of production (and mostly out of operation) while the ATR keep trucking along... Again, it says all that needs to be said about the market.


The 328 has a low seating capacity compared to the ATR, that's the main reason the ATR is selling. Airlines do not want to go back to the days of small planes, if an airport cannot profitably fill an RJ, it's not worth the costs involved to provide the service.

Hence why relaunching the Do-328 doesn't make sense: it'll seat up to 43 pax (up to 52 for the ATR42) and will be the sole member of its family (whereas the ATR42 shares commonality with the much larger ATR72 and has obviously sold way less).
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:43 pm

IADCA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Good points.
I'd venture to say that SAAB, BAE, Antonov and Ilyushin had strong finances (thanks to their military branches) and DHC (Bombardier) was printing money with the CRJs.
I think all just decided to rest on their laurels and barely updated their offers, while ATR made small improvements here and there throughout the years to keep the ATR (more) relevant to their customers needs. DHC decided to launch the (quite different) Q400, but went the route of higher speed at the cost of complexity and fuel consumption.


It's not that they weren't trying to improve the planes. They didn't have access to the R&D capital to do so, whether that was because they literally couldn't get the funds or because their parent companies cut them off. People forget that even small improvements are expensive. You still have to test-fly them, for example, which means you need a testing frame and to actually fly it. That isn't cheap and it amortizes much more comfortably against a larger company.

Airbus has proven now several times - with ATR and now with the C-Series - to be willing and able to make the investments necessary to keep projects viable that would be much worse off without them. Good for them, but let's not pretend it doesn't make a difference.

Well, then it's not ATR's or Airbus' fault if their competitors decided to not improve their products: as with anything (especially with transportation), if you don't your product it'll die.
Airbus (and Leonardo) decided to keep improving their machine; and it keeps selling.

IADCA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
IADCA wrote:

Well, one thing it says to me is that having Airbus' money behind one is a huge advantage. See the CS100/300 versus the A221/3.

How's that? If the ATR was such an inferior frame as people seem to infer on this thread, it wouldn't sell.
And, remember that Airbus has refused in the recent years to pour any money in ATR that they would have needed to develop an ATR92-or-whatever-it-was-to-be-called.

Unless... are you insinuating that Airbus is bribing the airlines or that ATR is dumping the plane?
Remember: ATR is a 50/50 joint-venture between Airbus and Leonardo. Airbus is not alone in this company.


And the A220 is also a 50/50 JV, yet the project only took off once Airbus threw enough financial muscle behind it to ensure to customers that it would be viable long term, weather the early money-losing frames, and wasn't going to leave them with orphan planes and no parts support.

As the poster who already responded to you pointed out, the best frame doesn't always win. The ancillary stuff matters: flexibility to offer discounts to gain sales momentum, parts support, even a trade-in facility to provide liquidity to the buyer.

The A220 was not developed and started production under a joint-venture, but under the sole ownership of Bombardier. Also, Bombardier had, at the time, a very well established spare parts network all over the world (for both RJs and Biz Jets) that could have easily supported the CSeries.
 
IADCA
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:08 am

WayexTDI wrote:
IADCA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Good points.
I'd venture to say that SAAB, BAE, Antonov and Ilyushin had strong finances (thanks to their military branches) and DHC (Bombardier) was printing money with the CRJs.
I think all just decided to rest on their laurels and barely updated their offers, while ATR made small improvements here and there throughout the years to keep the ATR (more) relevant to their customers needs. DHC decided to launch the (quite different) Q400, but went the route of higher speed at the cost of complexity and fuel consumption.


It's not that they weren't trying to improve the planes. They didn't have access to the R&D capital to do so, whether that was because they literally couldn't get the funds or because their parent companies cut them off. People forget that even small improvements are expensive. You still have to test-fly them, for example, which means you need a testing frame and to actually fly it. That isn't cheap and it amortizes much more comfortably against a larger company.

Airbus has proven now several times - with ATR and now with the C-Series - to be willing and able to make the investments necessary to keep projects viable that would be much worse off without them. Good for them, but let's not pretend it doesn't make a difference.

Well, then it's not ATR's or Airbus' fault if their competitors decided to not improve their products: as with anything (especially with transportation), if you don't your product it'll die.
Airbus (and Leonardo) decided to keep improving their machine; and it keeps selling.



So? I never said it was either of their fault. I said having Airbus' money behind them helped. If Airbus had decided to buy 50% of the Do328, it doubtless would still be around, as the next example shows.

WayexTDI wrote:

The A220 was not developed and started production under a joint-venture, but under the sole ownership of Bombardier. Also, Bombardier had, at the time, a very well established spare parts network all over the world (for both RJs and Biz Jets) that could have easily supported the CSeries.


That's exactly the point. It was developed solely by BBD. They couldn't sell enough of them as a solo project. In 2017, the last year of BBD's sole ownership, they sold twelve CSeries planes. Twelve! The project was burning through mountains of cash and literally bankrupting the company. Airbus comes in, provides a lot of financial support, and suddenly - presto - 165 sales of the of the exact same airplane (which was by that point already in revenue service!) in 2018, enough for Airbus to justify exercising the option to take an additional 25%, going to the present 75% they own.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:02 pm

It appears Deutsche Aircraft has a prospective customer lined up for the D328eco...not certain which airline or for how many frames..... :airplane:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 12.article



Meanwhile, in a separate development, ZeroAvia has acquired Dornier 228s as H-E demonstrators.....

Image

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 65.article
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:20 am

Devilfish wrote:
It appears Deutsche Aircraft has a prospective customer lined up for the D328eco...not certain which airline or for how many frames..... :airplane:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 12.article



Meanwhile, in a separate development, ZeroAvia has acquired Dornier 228s as H-E demonstrators.....

Image

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 65.article


really exciting!
 
vfw614
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Re: Dornier 328eco News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:59 pm

 
vfw614
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:41 am

Polot wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
This could be a more serious and altogether realistic try for the Teutonic OEM than the overly ambitious -28Jet series of yore.....

Well their timeline is certainly not realistic. They, a new company building a new production line from scratch who are still in the process of selecting suppliers, are expecting certification and EIS in 2025 (only 3.5 years away)? That’s not going to happen.


While I don't think the timeline is realistic, I would not label them as a "new company". To me it is more like what Viking has done with the DHC6 - an established company (328 Support Services GmbH) working on the type for many years and then deciding to produce an updated version of a type they have tons of experience with.

As for the previous discussion about the D328eco and the US market - because airliners.net is airliners.net and not aircraft.net, discussion undertandably focuses on airline operations. However, Deutsche Aircraft has always stressed that it sees the D328eco as a multi-role aircraft with passengers ops just one of the five applications it will be offered for. And while those other four applications (mil, medevac, business, maritime) will probably not result in thousands of orders, they will most likely guarantee better margins than cut-throat competitions for airline orders.
 
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:21 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
This could be a more serious and altogether realistic try for the Teutonic OEM than the overly ambitious -28Jet series of yore.....

Well their timeline is certainly not realistic. They, a new company building a new production line from scratch who are still in the process of selecting suppliers, are expecting certification and EIS in 2025 (only 3.5 years away)? That’s not going to happen.


While I don't think the timeline is realistic, I would not label them as a "new company". To me it is more like what Viking has done with the DHC6 - an established company (328 Support Services GmbH) working on the type for many years and then deciding to produce an updated version of a type they have tons of experience with.

As for the previous discussion about the D328eco and the US market - because airliners.net is airliners.net and not aircraft.net, discussion undertandably focuses on airline operations. However, Deutsche Aircraft has always stressed that it sees the D328eco as a multi-role aircraft with passengers ops just one of the five applications it will be offered for. And while those other four applications (mil, medevac, business, maritime) will probably not result in thousands of orders, they will most likely guarantee better margins than cut-throat competitions for airline orders.



I'm not so sure that your comparison is actually that accurate. Viking for many years was doing total aircraft rebuilds to Zero hour logbooks where they primarily took Beavers, stripped them down to their frame, ensured that the frame was sound (perhaps repairing it) and virtually all new parts past the frame. They worked to save the engine mount frame - but could provide a new one. Perhaps the yokes were reused, perhaps not. Glass cockpit with updated avionics and radios were standard. New turbo engine, etc. Typically 1-2 Beavers per year (which they are still doing). They had also been doing similar rebuilds on the Twin Otter. That is essentially full aircraft manufacturing experience. The only things they were not making was the original frame. For the Twin Otter 400... they started making new frames as well and upgraded other things.

How many complete rebuilds starting at the frame level was 328 Support Services GmbH doing? If they were doing that routinely then its comparable. If not... its not.
 
vfw614
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Re: Dornier 328eco News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:21 pm

I did not mean to say that they have similar experience as Viking. I was addressing comments that made Deutsche Aircraft sort of look like a total newcomer to the market trying to launch a completely new aircraft.

In further news, landing gear development is advancing:

https://www.deutscheaircraft.com/news/d ... he-d328eco

Heggemann will provide the complete landing gear structures and systems of both main- and nose landing gear.

This new landing gear will allow the D328ecoTM to inherit the robustness of its predecessor D328, and will increase operational capabilities towards the higher aircraft operational weight. Furthermore, the new landing gears will support unpaved runway operation, on a variety of rough surfaces such as grass, gravel, ice and sand.


Is the "Dornier 328 Classic" capable of operations on grass, gravel, ice and sand or will this be a new feature of th D328eco? And how does it compare to the competition, the ATR42-600S?

PS: Interesting that a lot of aviation media refer to the aircraft as the "Dornier 328eco" (most recently Flight International) while, obviously for legal reasons, Deutsche Aircraft never uses "Dornier" in its publications as they do not hold the rights to that name.
 
Noshow
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Re: Dornier 328eco News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:30 pm

It is the D328eco now. No more "ornier".
 
rbavfan
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:19 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Polot wrote:
The 728 wasn’t overly ambitious. The company was just broke.

By 'overly ambitious' I meant FD's aim of launching a whole family of jets.....

Image
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88777 ... sIAhTaX4aU


A pity...the 728JET seemed a good follow up to the short-lived Avro RJ85/100 and could've gone on to serial production and achieve decent sales especially in Europe......

Image
https://static.tildacdn.com/tild3938-65 ... er728_.jpg


So your saying Embraer was over ambitious as they launcheched a family of jets?
 
vfw614
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Re: Dornier 328eco News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:47 pm

Well, compared to Embraer's E-Jet family, the Dornier 5/7/928 looked somewhat less elegant, I must say. Quite, stubby, short-legged and tail-heavy (yes, I know, it was 5 abreast).

Noshow wrote:
It is the D328eco now. No more "ornier".


It never was officially the "Dornier 328 NEU" when launched or "Dornier 328eco" when renamed in May 2020. The rights to the name Dornier are held, as was discussed at some point in this thread, by an Airbus subsidiary. However, DRA obviously played the heritage card well as a lot of media turned the "D" into "Dornier", at least initially.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Relaunch of the Dornier 328

Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:46 pm

rbavfan wrote:
So your saying Embraer was over ambitious as they launcheched a family of jets?

You're the one saying that.


In the meantime, Deutsche Aircraft has picked Heggemann again, this time for the wing production work on the D328eco.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 17.article

This lends a signal of continuity upon the program. :arrow:

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