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roadrunner165
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US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:42 pm

I know this has been discussed in some other forums in the past, but it looks like it's now official. Anchorage is once again trying to entice international service. It would be nice to see the North Terminal come to life once again. I wonder if anyone will bite.

http://dot.alaska.gov/anc/business/comm ... -015.shtml

From the press release:
ANCHORAGE) – The U.S. Department of Transportation has granted expanded international passenger transfer rights to Alaska’s international airports. ANC is already an air cargo powerhouse, and these new passenger rights will allow airlines the ability to use belly cargo to support routes with passenger service overlaid. The rights also allow foreign airlines to better utilize U.S. partner airlines to offer more markets via connections at ANC.

These new passenger transfer rights mirror existing air cargo transfer rights that have been successfully used to help grow ANC into the world’s sixth-busiest air cargo airport.

“The Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport (ANC) is a key part of Alaska’s economy. Annually, ANC is responsible for $1.8 billion of economic benefit to the state. These new passenger transfer rights are an asset that can help grow Alaska’s economy. I’d like to thank President Donald Trump and Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao for all they do to help the economy of Alaska,” said Governor Mike Dunleavy.

Owing to Alaska’s geographic location, the expanded passenger rights are designed to assist Alaska’s international airports when competing with foreign airports, thereby spurring economic growth in Alaska.

“We have analyzed passenger aircraft performance and belly cargo capacity, and there is a substantial revenue opportunity for airlines to utilize ANC,” said Airport Director Jim Szczesniak. “For example, Hong Kong to Dallas nonstop has a belly cargo weight penalty—a stop at ANC eliminates that penalty and allows for more than $40,000 in additional cargo revenue for each flight.”

Szczesniak provided additional scenarios benefiting long-haul passenger airlines:

Brisbane-Anchorage-Chicago allows an additional 24 cargo positions, an additional $64,000 or more in cargo revenue.
Sydney-Anchorage-New York allows an additional 23 cargo positions, an additional $62,000 in cargo revenue.
Taipei-Anchorage-Toronto transferring cargo, passengers, and taking on cargo and/or passengers. No belly cargo limitations.
New Delhi-Anchorage-Los Angeles stopping in ANC only adds 0.5% in additional great circle distance compared to non-stop. No belly cargo limitations. A simultaneous arrival with Mumbai-Anchorage-San Francisco flight could offer short connection times for passengers and also connect traffic to a U.S. partner airline to serve Seattle or other West Coast cities.

Passenger Transfer Rights
On-line passenger transfer to US destinations
On-line passenger transfer with change of gauge
Interline passenger transfer to foreign carriers to foreign destinations
Passenger transfer to US carriers to US destinations
Passenger transfer to US carriers to foreign destinations

Cargo Transfer Rights
On-line cargo transfer to US destinations
On-line cargo transfer to foreign destinations
Interline transfer cargo to foreign carriers to foreign destinations
Foreign airlines can carry eligible international cargo between US destinations*
Cargo transfer to US carriers to US destinations
Cargo transfer to US carriers to foreign destinations
 
BNEFlyer
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:01 am

As someone who lives in BNE I would love to see an ANC flight here!
 
2travel2know2
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:37 am

Perhaps is time ANC Airport Marketing starts talking to NH, JL, KE, OZ, BR, CA et al about routing any future passenger service to Latin America via ANC.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
x1234
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:54 am

You don't even need ANC. AeroMexico pre-COVID was flying daily MEX-NRT and 5x weekly MEX-ICN non-stop both ways. There is ANA competition on MEX-NRT. Note this is at the edge of the B787's range and they cancelled the Shanghai/PVG flight because it required a TIJ stop west-bound which wasn't capital efficient.
 
CALMSP
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:56 am

kudos for the work the ANC airport team did in the application, but this is going nowhere. Airplanes can fly cheaper and farther non-stop to the US, and thats what people want. Stopping in ANC literally for no reason isn't going to be that attractive.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:11 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
Perhaps is time ANC Airport Marketing starts talking to NH, JL, KE, OZ, BR, CA et al about routing any future passenger service to Latin America via ANC.


LAX works fine, and actually has meaningful O&D plus services to Latin American destinations.

ANC spent more in lawyer fees to prepare the application than it will see in new passenger taxes from this. The cargo rationalization - you can carry more weight because you're not carrying fuel - means you don't get non-stops that generate non-stop premiums. ANC would be competing with every other one-stop route, with less frequency and carrier choice. Don't pick fights you can't win.
 
ahj2000
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:16 am

Change of gauge is the most interesting term there imo. This is basically saying that CA or someone could set up a base in ANC, flying in 787s and such from Chinese destinations, and then giving them a single connection onto 32x/MAX type aircraft for direct service to secondary US destinations, eliminating the CHINA-PEK/PVG-LAX/SFO/JFK-USA route a lot of people have to do.
That would be an interesting concept.
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AntonioMartin
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:22 am

Will more airlines fly to ANC after this?

Also, a question of my particular interest: is PHX bound by the same limitations ANC had?
 
2travel2know2
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:25 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
Perhaps is time ANC Airport Marketing starts talking to NH, JL, KE, OZ, BR, CA et al about routing any future passenger service to Latin America via ANC.


LAX works fine, and actually has meaningful O&D plus services to Latin American destinations.

ANC spent more in lawyer fees to prepare the application than it will see in new passenger taxes from this. The cargo rationalization - you can carry more weight because you're not carrying fuel - means you don't get non-stops that generate non-stop premiums. ANC would be competing with every other one-stop route, with less frequency and carrier choice. Don't pick fights you can't win.
LAX requires all passengers from countries that need US visas to visit USA to have them to transit or their boarding will be denied.
ANC is still the only US airport who has TWOV, no visas required for passengers flying via ANC.
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dcajet
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:49 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
Perhaps is time ANC Airport Marketing starts talking to NH, JL, KE, OZ, BR, CA et al about routing any future passenger service to Latin America via ANC.


Those existed already, but I am certain they had no traffic rights ex ANC; VARIG used to stop @ ANC en route from LAX to Tokyo when they flew it with their 707-320s and DC-10-30s. When the 747s came online, the ANC stop was discontinued.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
B747Loadmaster
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:04 am

CALMSP wrote:
kudos for the work the ANC airport team did in the application, but this is going nowhere. Airplanes can fly cheaper and farther non-stop to the US, and thats what people want. Stopping in ANC literally for no reason isn't going to be that attractive.


I think you're forgetting about today's real moneymaker.. cargo.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:15 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Change of gauge is the most interesting term there imo. This is basically saying that CA or someone could set up a base in ANC, flying in 787s and such from Chinese destinations, and then giving them a single connection onto 32x/MAX type aircraft for direct service to secondary US destinations, eliminating the CHINA-PEK/PVG-LAX/SFO/JFK-USA route a lot of people have to do.
That would be an interesting concept.


That, and:
The rights also allow foreign airlines to better utilize U.S. partner airlines to offer more markets via connections at ANC.
In theory, they would not need to have to base the smaller aircraft in Anchorage, but could have a capacity purchase agreement with a local carrier for the final step. AS? CQ? For the real darkhorse, 4N? I mean, while we're dreaming...
 
hoons90
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:28 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Change of gauge is the most interesting term there imo. This is basically saying that CA or someone could set up a base in ANC, flying in 787s and such from Chinese destinations, and then giving them a single connection onto 32x/MAX type aircraft for direct service to secondary US destinations, eliminating the CHINA-PEK/PVG-LAX/SFO/JFK-USA route a lot of people have to do.
That would be an interesting concept.


Hasn't Iberia done something similar at MIA with A319s, albeit to other international destinations instead of US ones?
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CALMSP
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:43 am

hoons90 wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Change of gauge is the most interesting term there imo. This is basically saying that CA or someone could set up a base in ANC, flying in 787s and such from Chinese destinations, and then giving them a single connection onto 32x/MAX type aircraft for direct service to secondary US destinations, eliminating the CHINA-PEK/PVG-LAX/SFO/JFK-USA route a lot of people have to do.
That would be an interesting concept.


Hasn't Iberia done something similar at MIA with A319s, albeit to other international destinations instead of US ones?


I think IB quit that, but AF still is I think.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:18 am

CALMSP wrote:
hoons90 wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Change of gauge is the most interesting term there imo. This is basically saying that CA or someone could set up a base in ANC, flying in 787s and such from Chinese destinations, and then giving them a single connection onto 32x/MAX type aircraft for direct service to secondary US destinations, eliminating the CHINA-PEK/PVG-LAX/SFO/JFK-USA route a lot of people have to do.
That would be an interesting concept.


Hasn't Iberia done something similar at MIA with A319s, albeit to other international destinations instead of US ones?


I think IB quit that, but AF still is I think.


IB operated quite a couple of those at MIA. I believe they couldn't keep it up due to new regulations which didn't make connecting at MIA optimal anymore.

AF has 2 A320s based in the French Carribean opearting to airports in the area with transfers for those flights mainly going through at FDF/PTP from CDG.
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kavok
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:17 pm

I am just curious what markets (on the North American side) this change is aiming for. From the lower 48, ANC itself is a decently long flight (ie no RJs are going to be flying it). By the time you get a plane big enough to fly lower48-ANC, is there any value in a TPAC tag at that point? Is there enough demand closer in (FAI, YXY, JNU, etc.) to warrant foreign feeder flights?

Again, just curious who (or what situations) this change was intended for?
 
chonetsao
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:35 pm

kavok wrote:
I am just curious what markets (on the North American side) this change is aiming for. From the lower 48, ANC itself is a decently long flight (ie no RJs are going to be flying it). By the time you get a plane big enough to fly lower48-ANC, is there any value in a TPAC tag at that point? Is there enough demand closer in (FAI, YXY, JNU, etc.) to warrant foreign feeder flights?

Again, just curious who (or what situations) this change was intended for?


My guess is Asia-Canada traffic, Southeast Asia - US traffic besides transit passengers that would benefit the favourite local airline.

For instance, airlines like Malaysian or Thai that do not have Ultra-long haul aircrafts but would like to fly to LAX or JFK, they could do a scissor hub in ANC, fly twice daily BKK/KUL-ANC, and then one goes to east coast and another goes to LAX or even Toronto. Traditionally those flights go via ICN or TYO, which can be slot unfriendly or expensive to operate (not to mention plenty competition in ICN or TYO). With ANC opening up, airlines like Garuda, Thai or Malaysian Airlines can have another go on ASEAN-US/CANADA routes with a scissor hub in ANC.

Nevertheless, this also opens up possibilities for a combi-777X or a revised B748-combi that provide a smaller passenger capacity yet maximise cargo capacity.
 
airbazar
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:06 pm

I didn't realize that intl connections were not allowed at Alaska airports.
I know that foreign airlines operate there, typically in the summer so the lack of CBP facilities can't be the issue so what exactly is preventing airlines from offering connections now? Is it merely paperwork?

Nevertheless, this also opens up possibilities for a combi-777X or a revised B748-combi that provide a smaller passenger capacity yet maximise cargo capacity.

There is no market for Combi aircraft due to modern safety regulations.
 
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vhtje
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:48 pm

I am confused. Are they saying that airside transfers will be possible at ANC? If not, forget it - what would be the advantage of routing through ANC from a passenger's perspective?
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tjwgrr
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:53 pm

Someone had mentioned it before that the A321 XLR with a range of up to 4700 nm could bring some very interesting routes to the table using ANC as a mini hub connecting smaller Asian cities to North American cities and vice versa. If you look even conservatively at 4000 nm from ANC there's lots of possibilities:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=4000nm%40anc&MS=wls&DU=mi
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
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Polot
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:16 pm

It’s still not exactly clear to me what is new with this agreement and what airlines can do now that they couldn’t do before.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:29 pm

Wait, so you do not need a US visa to do such transfers?
 
raylee67
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:34 pm

Can ANC compete for NE Asia - EU traffic? While DXB/DOH/AUH are good for transit traffic between SE Asia and Europe, NE Asia - EU is actually shorter connecting through ANC than DXB/DOH/AUH.

Alaska Airlines can explore this opportunity with A321XLR.
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a318
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:34 pm

Essentially someone can do what Jet Airways did in BRU... right? They had that scissor hub in Brussels where all of their flights from India arrived at the same time and all of their North America departures left at the same time.
 
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Polot
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:45 pm

a318 wrote:
Essentially someone can do what Jet Airways did in BRU... right? They had that scissor hub in Brussels where all of their flights from India arrived at the same time and all of their North America departures left at the same time.

raylee67 wrote:
Can ANC compete for NE Asia - EU traffic? While DXB/DOH/AUH are good for transit traffic between SE Asia and Europe, NE Asia - EU is actually shorter connecting through ANC than DXB/DOH/AUH.

Alaska Airlines can explore this opportunity with A321XLR.

That’s only useful if you can do international transfers without a visa. The press release doesn’t make it clear (and the linked document appears to be older version because I see nothing about a new amendment in it), and most of the talk is about transfer to US destinations where obviously at some point you need a US visa and to clear US FIS.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:07 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Someone had mentioned it before that the A321 XLR with a range of up to 4700 nm could bring some very interesting routes to the table using ANC as a mini hub connecting smaller Asian cities to North American cities and vice versa.


US carriers have been able to do this in the past and other than dedicated cargo flights none of them chose to make use of ANC as a mini hub. Tankering fuel for a 15-hour flight and staffing the plane with 2 full crews has to be expensive but obviously not enough to offset the benefit of a non-stop flight. Personally, I wouldn't mind a stop-over in ANC on an ultra-long flight. Clear customs in ANC and arrive at ORD as a domestic passenger and avoid the headaches of customs, immigration and a terminal transfer. 2 hours on the ground in ANC is still better than the international arrivals process at almost any busy US hub.

I see some value to Canadian airports from Asian cities if there is no current service into YVR for connections but that list of city combinations and PDEW is probably very small. Anyway, the option to transit in ANC without needing a VISA is on the books so that's not a bad thing.
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enilria
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:14 pm

x1234 wrote:
You don't even need ANC. AeroMexico pre-COVID was flying daily MEX-NRT and 5x weekly MEX-ICN non-stop both ways. There is ANA competition on MEX-NRT. Note this is at the edge of the B787's range and they cancelled the Shanghai/PVG flight because it required a TIJ stop west-bound which wasn't capital efficient.

Just to clarify it is not at the edge of the 787 range. There is a weight penalty specific to MEX altitude that causes this. It is not relevant for most of the rest of Latin America, except the few high altitude airports.
 
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enilria
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:17 pm

B747Loadmaster wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
kudos for the work the ANC airport team did in the application, but this is going nowhere. Airplanes can fly cheaper and farther non-stop to the US, and thats what people want. Stopping in ANC literally for no reason isn't going to be that attractive.


I think you're forgetting about today's real moneymaker.. cargo.

It's only a money maker for pure freighters. It only really covers fuel and maybe the pilot bills for passenger planes and is underwater if the plane has to arrive at the passenger terminal and/or have flight attendants. The passenger airlines were doing it over the Summer because CARES was paying the pilot bill, so anything above fuel was mostly profit. The economics have already changed on this.
 
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enilria
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:21 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Wait, so you do not need a US visa to do such transfers?
vhtje wrote:
I am confused. Are they saying that airside transfers will be possible at ANC? If not, forget it - what would be the advantage of routing through ANC from a passenger's perspective?

As of now this has not worked because :
Post-911 TSA stopped allowing passengers to stay onboard on intl flights that pass through the USA on 5th freedom. As I understand it they are now required to rescreen. That's at least policy. It can be changed, but I seriously doubt TSA would go along with that without some serious pressure put in place. If they exit the plane the policy and/or law (not sure which) has been they need a visa. The combination of these has been death for these sorts of concepts.

This whole thing smells to me of a politician declaring victory and claiming an economic bounty for advocating for a change in regulation that nobody wanted.
 
airbazar
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:53 pm

vhtje wrote:
I am confused. Are they saying that airside transfers will be possible at ANC? If not, forget it - what would be the advantage of routing through ANC from a passenger's perspective?

Price! ANC is a major cargo hub but not every airline operates their own freighters. Airlines could find it beneficial to operate aircraft with the belly full of cargo while selling heavily discounted passenger tickets with strict limits or barriers on checked luggage. But, like you I'm confused as to what this announcement really is about.
enilria wrote:
This whole thing smells to me of a politician declaring victory and claiming an economic bounty for advocating for a change in regulation that nobody wanted.

It's not even clear to me that there was a change in regulation at all. I find it very hard to believe that there is currently regulation in place that bans transfers at Alaskan airports.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:45 pm

I'm still trying to understand how a transfer at ANC would be any different than LAX, SFO, JFK, ORD, etc?
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:53 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I'm still trying to understand how a transfer at ANC would be any different than LAX, SFO, JFK, ORD, etc?


Someone could fly from Asia to Canada, stopping in ANC, and not require a transit visa.

Alternatively, a foreign carrier could make a fuel stop in Anchorage, let the passengers stretch their legs as they transfer cargo, and continue to another US destination without having the plane wait on customs.
 
hoons90
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:59 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I'm still trying to understand how a transfer at ANC would be any different than LAX, SFO, JFK, ORD, etc?


Someone could fly from Asia to Canada, stopping in ANC, and not require a transit visa.



Hasn't CX been doing this until December 2007? HKG-ANC-YYZ CX828 on the A340-300. They went nonstop once they got the 77W.
Prior to 9/11 pax were allowed to deplane and reboard with laminated "Transit cards" in lieu of boarding passes. After 9/11 I believe pax stayed inside the plane.
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Ziyulu
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:12 pm

Can one just buy a HKG to ANC segment ticket?
 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:13 pm

enilria wrote:
x1234 wrote:
You don't even need ANC. AeroMexico pre-COVID was flying daily MEX-NRT and 5x weekly MEX-ICN non-stop both ways. There is ANA competition on MEX-NRT. Note this is at the edge of the B787's range and they cancelled the Shanghai/PVG flight because it required a TIJ stop west-bound which wasn't capital efficient.

Just to clarify it is not at the edge of the 787 range. There is a weight penalty specific to MEX altitude that causes this. It is not relevant for most of the rest of Latin America, except the few high altitude airports.


It's for practical purposes the edge of the 787 range for Eastern Asia to Latin American capitals.

The next closest large Latin American airport would be Panama, which at 7,300 nmi from NRT could hardly maintain the kind of premium traffic needed to keep that route viable (a similar distance to United's SIN-SFO).

///////////////

ANC as East Asia to Latin America hub has no advantages over any of the current options. Those routes would still need widebody aircraft for any destination south of Mexico and it's still under US jurisdiction (that's a no for Huawei-type executives).
 
Ziyulu
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:17 pm

Do you think the US Government will really allow not going through immigration when transiting at a US airport? Almost all countries in the world require going through immigration at the first point of entry.
 
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Polot
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:21 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think the US Government will really allow not going through immigration when transiting at a US airport? Almost all countries in the world require going through immigration at the first point of entry.

Yes I don’t see how any of what is stated would be useful for foreign airlines for using ANC as a stopping point on the way to another US airport as talked about a lot in the press release.

Foreign airlines still won’t be able to carry local traffic (however meager it may be) between ANC-US airport and basing smaller aircraft there is expensive for change of gauge flights (again no local traffic rights, usually suboptimal aircraft utilization in those situations, etc). They will just continue to partner with a US airline(s) and push connecting passengers through their hubs.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:04 pm

enilria wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Wait, so you do not need a US visa to do such transfers?
vhtje wrote:
I am confused. Are they saying that airside transfers will be possible at ANC? If not, forget it - what would be the advantage of routing through ANC from a passenger's perspective?

As of now this has not worked because :
Post-911 TSA stopped allowing passengers to stay onboard on intl flights that pass through the USA on 5th freedom. As I understand it they are now required to rescreen. That's at least policy. It can be changed, but I seriously doubt TSA would go along with that without some serious pressure put in place. If they exit the plane the policy and/or law (not sure which) has been they need a visa. The combination of these has been death for these sorts of concepts.

This whole thing smells to me of a politician declaring victory and claiming an economic bounty for advocating for a change in regulation that nobody wanted.


Didn't Anchorage have a circular lounge area where folks could get off the plane, stretch, buy duty-free, etc. before continuing on, in the past? I seem to remember pics of it.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:25 pm

Does this mean that foreign airlines can operate domestic flights ANC-ORD/JFK/LAX and sell those sectors in addition to the ANC-XXX (Their HUB)?
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hoons90
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:43 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
enilria wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Wait, so you do not need a US visa to do such transfers?
vhtje wrote:
I am confused. Are they saying that airside transfers will be possible at ANC? If not, forget it - what would be the advantage of routing through ANC from a passenger's perspective?

As of now this has not worked because :
Post-911 TSA stopped allowing passengers to stay onboard on intl flights that pass through the USA on 5th freedom. As I understand it they are now required to rescreen. That's at least policy. It can be changed, but I seriously doubt TSA would go along with that without some serious pressure put in place. If they exit the plane the policy and/or law (not sure which) has been they need a visa. The combination of these has been death for these sorts of concepts.

This whole thing smells to me of a politician declaring victory and claiming an economic bounty for advocating for a change in regulation that nobody wanted.


Didn't Anchorage have a circular lounge area where folks could get off the plane, stretch, buy duty-free, etc. before continuing on, in the past? I seem to remember pics of it.


I have flown YYZ-ANC-SEL v.v. on KE many times in the 90s and vaguely remember deplaning at ANC and hanging around in the departure lounge. As we were deplaning they handed out these laminated cards that said something like "in transit" and they were collected when we reboarded. We mingled with CX, OZ and CI pax there as well.

Back then KE had aircraft that could fly nonstop from YYZ to SEL but due to the curfew at SEL, the midnight departure from YYZ would arrive at SEL too early. I suppose that's the reason they stopped at ANC. It went nonstop once ICN opened in 2001.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:43 pm

[quote="Ziyulu"[b]]Do you think the US Government will really allow not going through immigration when transiting at a US airport?[/b] Almost all countries in the world require going through immigration at the first point of entry.[/quote]

If your next destination is not in the US, then why not? Almost all countries in the world have a way of not corralling you into "immigrating" and then "emigrating", when you transit through an airport. Such a setup is typically called "international airport" and specifically "transit zone/sterile zone".
They could screen for security and correct paperwork for onward journey, of course. They will collect your fees (conveniently rolled into your airline ticket price in advance), take your money via duty free shops and food outlets, and let you continue on your merry way.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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ADent
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:04 am

I can’t find the Alaska order, but they were asking for what Puerto Rico got.

Here is the PR order: https://www.ddec.pr.gov/wp-content/uplo ... 0-4-10.pdf

As stated above you could operate a scissor hub, etc


It doesn’t say anything above visas, customs, etc (presumably since this is a DOT order and those belong to other departments ).
 
Ziyulu
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:44 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
[quote="Ziyulu"[b]]Do you think the US Government will really allow not going through immigration when transiting at a US airport?[/b] Almost all countries in the world require going through immigration at the first point of entry.


If your next destination is not in the US, then why not? Almost all countries in the world have a way of not corralling you into "immigrating" and then "emigrating", when you transit through an airport. Such a setup is typically called "international airport" and specifically "transit zone/sterile zone".
They could screen for security and correct paperwork for onward journey, of course. They will collect your fees (conveniently rolled into your airline ticket price in advance), take your money via duty free shops and food outlets, and let you continue on your merry way.[/quote]

How come gateways like LAX, SFO, ORD, JFK, EWR, etc, are all big international airports and none of these offer airside transfers? Also, if you do offer visa free airside transfers, a country needs exit immigration control so passengers do not just wander out of the terminal.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:13 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think the US Government will really allow not going through immigration when transiting at a US airport?[/b] Almost all countries in the world require going through immigration at the first point of entry.


If your next destination is not in the US, then why not? Almost all countries in the world have a way of not corralling you into "immigrating" and then "emigrating", when you transit through an airport. Such a setup is typically called "international airport" and specifically "transit zone/sterile zone".
They could screen for security and correct paperwork for onward journey, of course. They will collect your fees (conveniently rolled into your airline ticket price in advance), take your money via duty free shops and food outlets, and let you continue on your merry way.


How come gateways like LAX, SFO, ORD, JFK, EWR, etc, are all big international airports and none of these offer airside transfers? Also, if you do offer visa free airside transfers, a country needs exit immigration control so passengers do not just wander out of the terminal.


well, that's the rub, huh? They are international gateways to the US. They do not offer airside transit. In most other parts of the world, that would be an "airport serving international destinations" or some such vague definition. But an "international airport" without an option of airside international-to-international transfer would be a misnomer; again, worldwide, with a notable exception of the US.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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enilria
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:27 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
enilria wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Wait, so you do not need a US visa to do such transfers?
vhtje wrote:
I am confused. Are they saying that airside transfers will be possible at ANC? If not, forget it - what would be the advantage of routing through ANC from a passenger's perspective?

As of now this has not worked because :
Post-911 TSA stopped allowing passengers to stay onboard on intl flights that pass through the USA on 5th freedom. As I understand it they are now required to rescreen. That's at least policy. It can be changed, but I seriously doubt TSA would go along with that without some serious pressure put in place. If they exit the plane the policy and/or law (not sure which) has been they need a visa. The combination of these has been death for these sorts of concepts.

This whole thing smells to me of a politician declaring victory and claiming an economic bounty for advocating for a change in regulation that nobody wanted.


Didn't Anchorage have a circular lounge area where folks could get off the plane, stretch, buy duty-free, etc. before continuing on, in the past? I seem to remember pics of it.

Pre-911 sure. No doubt.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:44 pm

enilria wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Didn't Anchorage have a circular lounge area where folks could get off the plane, stretch, buy duty-free, etc. before continuing on, in the past? I seem to remember pics of it.

Pre-911 sure. No doubt.

I think he might be referring to pre 1982 when the International terminal was built. Before that, I believe international flights used the hexagon at the end of what is now Concourse B.
 
Chugach
Posts: 1383
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:18 am

Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:04 pm

Like others, I’m not sure this will really accomplish anything. But, ANC has been attempting to get scheduled Asia passenger service back for several years now. Kudos to them for trying something outside the box.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1133
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:37 pm

In the 80s, where does one go through immigration? In ANC or the final destination in the US?
 
airbazar
Posts: 10427
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:40 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
In the 80s, where does one go through immigration? In ANC or the final destination in the US?

Final destination. ANC was a major refueling stop rather than a connecting airport. Flights stopped, people got out into the terminal while the plane was refueled, then they continued on to their final destination.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1133
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: US DOT Grants ANC international passenger transfer rights

Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:12 pm

airbazar wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
In the 80s, where does one go through immigration? In ANC or the final destination in the US?

Final destination. ANC was a major refueling stop rather than a connecting airport. Flights stopped, people got out into the terminal while the plane was refueled, then they continued on to their final destination.


Was it a sterile area? One could not just easily leave the airport, right?

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