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Silver1SWA
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:21 am

TWA302 wrote:
FlyHPN wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
While I feel for airline employees, some of them
act as if their job is more important than others (yea I get that’s going to be an unpopular opinion) thus requiring being singled out to receive government funds. All the while small businesses are being decimated and help not flowing to them. Airlines have been so successful at receiving funds because 1. Union lobby is excellent - but it distorts reality as does every effective lobby and 2. Reps and Senators rely on airlines for their travel and have to face these folks weekly

Airlines don’t deserve a special bailout, let alone a second one. Airline employees have been through the ringer - no doubt about it and I want to clear I’m not saying they don’t deserve help, the bailout just needs to also help other industries and businesses in conjunction with airlines.

Have to agree. It hurts to see anyone lose their job, but propping up an industry that has been making billions in past years I can’t stand behind. It’s got to be survival of the fittest.


It doesn't make sense. I mean how can airlines get all these bailouts yet companies that RELY on air travelers for a huge chunk of business, like Enterprise/National/Alamo (EHI family) didn't (COULDN'T) get one penny to help them? EHI had to furlough and layoff thousands in April, my wife was one of them, even though she is back. I understand air travel is important but it all boils down to politics which sucks. I feel bad for ANYONE that has been impacted by COVID and as a result, are out of work. It stinks and I am sorry.


You just said it. Those companies rely on air travel so they’ll be counting on the airlines to bring in the business when the threat of the virus subsides.

I agree more should be done across the board to help everyone impacted by the pandemic. But the airlines being considered essential and the complexities of keeping employees and aircraft legally current are the reasons why the government singles them out for help. Once you let the dominos fall you cannon easily and quickly undo the damage. The vaccine is here. This is probably the most appropriate time to keep them propped up just a little longer.

And I hate the term bailout here. It’s payroll support. The airlines would easily cut everyone and right their size. The problem is they know by the time they appropriately match the current economic environment people will be ready to fly again.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:16 am

kalvado wrote:
Sokes wrote:
kalvado wrote:
We may still see the fallout from the current emission..
And it IS the government's job to decide which industries to help and which not to help, like or not - although that shouldn't be at random. There are definitely more important businesses and less important ones from a global perspective.

Since politicians fly a lot, aviation should be among the important ones.

If the decision which industries to help shouldn't be random, what criterias do you suggest?

Should critical industries in exchange for guaranteed government help have increased equity requirements?

It's always a tough call; but for example, choosing between hospitals and bars - I think the choice is fairly obvious.
Aviation, I assume, should be on the more important side due to infrastructure importance (same as trucking and highways, for example) and because of certain groups of highly qualified professionals (pilots, mechanics, dispatchers) who would be hard to replace due to training and certification requirements.
After all, the big goal is to have the world return to more or less normal in a few years, and a world without bars and theme parks is much closer to normal than one without dentists and airlines.


In general aviation is not really critical in the scale it is right now. The very few people that really have to fly have their own jets avialable (governments). Every one else does not need to fly at all. The whole business traveler is not really needed by the way. The reason it became somewhat important was because companies became really big and centralised. So instead of having local supermarkets you have now target, walmart, etc.

The only part of aviation that is necessary for a country to function is cargo, and that part is also not having problems. Every business that is essential does not struggle during covid. Food is still processed and sold. Electricity and water is still available. So people can eat and poop. Instead of throwing billions after companies it would be better to just provide free food, electricity and water to people that lose their job and can't afford it. Also cover housing costs and stimulate re-education for jobless. To many companies lived in a dream world, not preparing themself for a crisis.

From personal experience: Companies make risk assessments but when you then tell the CFO to increase savings by 200% to make sure a company can survive for 6months with 75% of the turnover gone, they say "That's right but we cant afford that". Then they pay out billions in dividends...

Just let them fail if they can not adapt. There is enough money around to start up a new airline again.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:22 pm

As long as it's not the usual deal where the airlines keep the profits and the taxpayers keep the losses.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:09 pm

Any additional CARES act that doesn't include another round of direct stimulus to working tax payers and additional small business and provides more support for unemployed and big businesses like the airlines and the pathetic USPS is political suicide. The fact that these last 'bipartisan' proposal omit them and propose additional airline relief is mindboggling. The backlash will be Obamacare birthing the TeaParty bad for Biden's midterm election in 2022
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:09 am

Looking at the news stories regarding latest stimulus funding, did it include any funding for airlines and airports?
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
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    ArcticSEA
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    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:31 am

    Apparently it does include $15B via extension of the payroll support program. The questions I have are assuming the grants require airlines to recall furloughed workers, and the need to still preserve cash burn, would airlines reinstitute voluntary leave of absence programs? We don't want people just standing around. Surely there are people who were furloughed on 01Oct who have since moved on or have otherwise relocated, etc.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN28U0PL
    PNW-based private pilot and engineer. #fatpnw
     
    Jshank83
    Posts: 4031
    Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:52 am

    ArcticSEA wrote:
    Apparently it does include $15B via extension of the payroll support program. The questions I have are assuming the grants require airlines to recall furloughed workers, and the need to still preserve cash burn, would airlines reinstitute voluntary leave of absence programs? We don't want people just standing around. Surely there are people who were furloughed on 01Oct who have since moved on or have otherwise relocated, etc.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN28U0PL


    Also included any cities that an airline stopped flying to it will have to restart service. This mostly applies to smaller airports but I wonder how this applies to JetBlue and LGB. I know last time there were some weird quirks with that rule.
     
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    jetblastdubai
    Posts: 2015
    Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:35 am

    ArcticSEA wrote:
    Apparently it does include $15B via extension of the payroll support program. The questions I have


    The question I have relates to the union members that are receiving taxpayer funds.

    Are these CARES funds doled out as normal wages that are then taxed as well as the employee pays union dues on, or are they distributed directly to employees and exempt from taxes and union dues?

    If taxpayer funds are being used to pay workers when there is a fraction of the work to do but it helps them sustain their financial obligations and families in the near-term that's one thing. If taxpayer funds are being used to pay toward union dues then I think a lot of taxpayers would be very upset.
     
    MSJYOP28Apilot
    Posts: 459
    Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:43 am

    jetblastdubai wrote:
    ArcticSEA wrote:
    Apparently it does include $15B via extension of the payroll support program. The questions I have


    The question I have relates to the union members that are receiving taxpayer funds.

    Are these CARES funds doled out as normal wages that are then taxed as well as the employee pays union dues on, or are they distributed directly to employees and exempt from taxes and union dues?

    If taxpayer funds are being used to pay workers when there is a fraction of the work to do but it helps them sustain their financial obligations and families in the near-term that's one thing. If taxpayer funds are being used to pay toward union dues then I think a lot of taxpayers would be very upset.


    After the last bailout, taxes and union dues were still deducted so I assume they will still be deducted after this one.
     
    MSJYOP28Apilot
    Posts: 459
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    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:49 am

    This round of money basically sets the stage for a third round. For airlines that have furloughed, union contracts and training requirements mean furloughed workers cant be recalled and start working the next day. It might be until February or later for this to be able to happen for many work groups.

    The money only prohibits layoffs until April 1st. Thus the issue is many re-called workers will likely be getting WARN notices very quickly after starting work again. Many could be re-furloughed on April 1st.

    The work simply isnt there right now for all the furloughed workers. Thus there will be lots of people getting paid to not work. As airlines promised to back date pay to December 1st and with furlough re-calls and re-training taking time, it could be that furloughed employees get paid to do nothing until February or their April 1 re-furlough.
     
    EssentialBusDC
    Posts: 170
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    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:34 pm

    jetblastdubai wrote:
    ArcticSEA wrote:
    Apparently it does include $15B via extension of the payroll support program. The questions I have


    The question I have relates to the union members that are receiving taxpayer funds.

    Are these CARES funds doled out as normal wages that are then taxed as well as the employee pays union dues on, or are they distributed directly to employees and exempt from taxes and union dues?

    If taxpayer funds are being used to pay workers when there is a fraction of the work to do but it helps them sustain their financial obligations and families in the near-term that's one thing. If taxpayer funds are being used to pay toward union dues then I think a lot of taxpayers would be very upset.


    The money is to cover a paycheck/income that an airline pays (not all of it but a supplement)of an employee. How the employees choose to spend their income (union dues, medical expenses, buying a new car etc) is their choice.
     
    jayunited
    Posts: 3367
    Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:49 pm

    jetblastdubai wrote:
    ArcticSEA wrote:
    Apparently it does include $15B via extension of the payroll support program. The questions I have


    The question I have relates to the union members that are receiving taxpayer funds.

    Are these CARES funds doled out as normal wages that are then taxed as well as the employee pays union dues on, or are they distributed directly to employees and exempt from taxes and union dues?

    If taxpayer funds are being used to pay workers when there is a fraction of the work to do but it helps them sustain their financial obligations and families in the near-term that's one thing. If taxpayer funds are being used to pay toward union dues then I think a lot of taxpayers would be very upset.



    The first CARES act funds was paid directly to airlines to cover the existing payroll however I don't think a single airline payroll was 100% covered by the CARES act. Union employees still had to pay union dues but that money came out of their paycheck, but since the payroll wasn't completely covered it is hard to make that case. However the reason for the first CARES act was because many thought this would be a short lived epidemic, not a pandemic and it was designed to help airline employees meet their financial obligations.

    If there is a CARES2 the rumor (and stress rumor) I'm hearing here at UA is United would send out letters within 24 - 48 hours of it passing to all frontline employees who were furloughed letting them know they can com back to work and receive 100% of their pay and benefits. However their return would only be temporary through March 31, which is when CARES2 funds would run out again. Employees who choose to return would then be furloughed once again because UA knows they are going to be a smaller airline and the real recovery will not begin until early 2022. That timeline is contingent upon having widespread distribution of these vaccines and only if the vaccines work.

    However, if a union employee decides not to return for what would essentially be 3 months they would NOT loose their future recall rights like they would under normal circumstances.
     
    Jshank83
    Posts: 4031
    Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:14 pm

    Jshank83 wrote:
    ArcticSEA wrote:
    Apparently it does include $15B via extension of the payroll support program. The questions I have are assuming the grants require airlines to recall furloughed workers, and the need to still preserve cash burn, would airlines reinstitute voluntary leave of absence programs? We don't want people just standing around. Surely there are people who were furloughed on 01Oct who have since moved on or have otherwise relocated, etc.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN28U0PL


    Also included any cities that an airline stopped flying to it will have to restart service. This mostly applies to smaller airports but I wonder how this applies to JetBlue and LGB. I know last time there were some weird quirks with that rule.


    Nevermind too this. I forgot it is just in a metro area not all airports so being at LAX means they don't have to be at LGB.
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9337
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:21 pm

    MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
    As airlines promised to back date pay to December 1st and with furlough re-calls and re-training taking time...


    I believe the Dec 1 back-pay date is a requirement of the legislation, not a carrier promise.

    Airline workers will be paid retroactive to Dec. 1 and airlines will have to resume flying some routes they stopped after the aid package expired, congressional aides briefed on the talks said. Airline workers cannot be furloughed through March 31 as a condition of the assistance.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/health- ... SL1N2J00CL
     
    ewt340
    Posts: 1399
    Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:24 pm

    I don't know, while I love aviation, I do think it's time for actual small businesses to get their funding now. Airlines have been playing with stock buybacks for some time now. It's time for them to sell some of them back perhaps?
     
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    jetblastdubai
    Posts: 2015
    Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:43 pm

    EssentialBusDC wrote:
    How the employees choose to spend their income (union dues, medical expenses, buying a new car etc) is their choice.


    I was in a Federal government union and my union dues were directly deducted from my paycheck and was based on my earned wages. I didn't have the choice of either paying or not paying union dues. Do private company employees pay their unions dues separately or are they also payroll deductions?
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9337
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:37 pm

    ewt340 wrote:
    I don't know, while I love aviation, I do think it's time for actual small businesses to get their funding now. Airlines have been playing with stock buybacks for some time now. It's time for them to sell some of them back perhaps?


    Stock buybacks were prohibited by carriers receiving funds in the first CARES Act. American, United, Southwest, and JetBlue have all announced sales (or have already conducted sales) of more stock. Google 'equity dilution'
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 6204
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:16 pm

    Given that stocks have been buoyed by the vaccine news recently, it was actually a really good time to do stock sales to raise cash. The airlines that sold stocks way too early to raise cash are the ones that made a mistake.
     
    EssentialBusDC
    Posts: 170
    Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:21 pm

    [photoid][/photoid]
    jetblastdubai wrote:
    EssentialBusDC wrote:
    How the employees choose to spend their income (union dues, medical expenses, buying a new car etc) is their choice.


    I was in a Federal government union and my union dues were directly deducted from my paycheck and was based on my earned wages. I didn't have the choice of either paying or not paying union dues. Do private company employees pay their unions dues separately or are they also payroll deductions?

    It depends on the union and/or individual. For me I do have the option for payroll deduction, which I do because it’s much easier.
     
    Woodreau
    Posts: 2056
    Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

    Re: Senate Again Debating CARES2 for Airlines and Airports

    Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:03 pm

    jetblastdubai wrote:
    EssentialBusDC wrote:
    How the employees choose to spend their income (union dues, medical expenses, buying a new car etc) is their choice.


    I was in a Federal government union and my union dues were directly deducted from my paycheck and was based on my earned wages. I didn't have the choice of either paying or not paying union dues. Do private company employees pay their unions dues separately or are they also payroll deductions?


    When you’re hired at an airline with a union, you sign a sheet of paper saying the airline can payroll deduct your union dues. If you don’t sign, you get a bill from the union.

    If you choose to not be in a union, you signed another sheet of paper saying you agree to pay the amount you would have paid to the union to the union either through payroll deduction or agree to pay the bill when the union sends it to you for the cost of administering the union contract you are working under.
    Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.

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