Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Carlos01
Topic Author
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:52 am

Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:19 am

I came across this actually yesterday, Airbus is presenting some fruits of their innovation:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories ... ation.html

An aircraft powered by 6 independent, removable hydrogen fuel cell "pods" as they call them. I don't know, but already the high number of these "pods" somehow makes me doubt if this thing is literally going to fly. I really like these zero-emission ideas, but I'm not sure if they are just daydreams or really commercially viable future alternatives.

What do you guys think?
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:40 am

Doesn't it signal there is no optimum future engine technology available not even a perspective? This is why engines and aircraft get separated.
The political top level is now in big spending mode wanting to support the greta spirit. Nobody wants to miss these billions of research money. So they try this and that knowing it' not the way to go. Lightweight is the way to go and new aerodynamic shapes and -unsexy- ATC optimization.
 
Jalap
Posts: 663
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:03 am

Every idea that could bring back planes with more than 2 engines is worth researching!
Kidding aside, we can be certain that planes engines won't be powered with kerosene for eternity. It'll take tons of research, failed & impossible proposals, but some day one will make it through and become the standard.
If removable pods are the solution? One can have doubts.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2206
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:25 am

I'd say quite the contrary. Kerosene will last as aviation fuel until every other ground power generation has been moved to something else. Kerosene has a very good ratio of weight to energy and being a fluid it can be stored in tight spaces on board. It remains to be seen what is better. We might see fancy so called "green" liquid hydrogen take over the role of kerosene but it will be way more expensive and it needs to be generated before on the ground requiring enormous amounts of energy (nuclear?).
Last edited by Noshow on Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
f4f3a
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:07 am

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:26 am

Love the idea of planes with more engines . Also hopefully new tech will mean different shaped aircraft as well.
 
DartHerald
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:08 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:41 am

Noshow wrote:
I'd say quite the contrary. Kerosene will last as aviation fuel until every other ground power generation has been moved to something else. Kerosene has a very good ratio of weight to energy and being a fluid it can be stored in tight spaces on board. It remains to be seen what is better. We might see fancy so called "green" liquid hydrogen take over the role of kerosene but it will be way more expensive and it needs to be generated before on the ground requiring enormous amounts of energy (nuclear?).


I agree. One has to have the brain power of a no more than a gnat to appreciate the need to greatly reduce our reliance on burning carbon fuels but that doesn't mean they have to be eliminated altogether, just reduced to the point where the planet's natural processes can deal with it. There are plenty of higher impact targets (e.g. automotive, domestic and industrial uses) where elimination of carbon-based fuels would have a far greater effect, we should be concentrating on those.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4091
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:43 pm

Noshow wrote:
I'd say quite the contrary. Kerosene will last as aviation fuel until every other ground power generation has been moved to something else. Kerosene has a very good ratio of weight to energy and being a fluid it can be stored in tight spaces on board. It remains to be seen what is better. We might see fancy so called "green" liquid hydrogen take over the role of kerosene but it will be way more expensive and it needs to be generated before on the ground requiring enormous amounts of energy (nuclear?).


Full agreement, kerosene will be one of the last fuels to go, simply as the technology switchover will be among the hardest (and investments into same sky-high). I could even imagine that we won´t see a real change towards hydrogene in flying at all, and instead use "bio-berosene" or an equivalent as replacement for conventional kerosene to achieve the same effects towards carbon reduction and neutrality. It would certainly help to preserve a large part of today´s supply chain, whilst still allowing a step forward.

DartHerald wrote:
I agree. One has to have the brain power of a no more than a gnat to appreciate the need to greatly reduce our reliance on burning carbon fuels but that doesn't mean they have to be eliminated altogether, just reduced to the point where the planet's natural processes can deal with it. There are plenty of higher impact targets (e.g. automotive, domestic and industrial uses) where elimination of carbon-based fuels would have a far greater effect, we should be concentrating on those.


Agreed. Just think about the delivery trucks in cities which drive on average a couple of 100 meters between stops (if at all) and come out at 30 liters or more per kilometer, whilst at the same time only doing 100 km per day. Prime target for e-mobility and a fast achievable target with a high impact. Same for regional trains, inland barges, ... aviation comes pretty late and with the highst cost of conversion.

Jalap wrote:
If removable pods are the solution? One can have doubts.


It may be a clever interim-solution. One has to expect that the actual air frame will have a duration similar to what we have today - decades. Engine technology, especially early in the cycle, will be fast. It could be worth to allow for a change in the propulsion system very much from the beginning. De facto Boeing´s approach with the 787 engines, just taken further.

Noshow wrote:
Lightweight is the way to go and new aerodynamic shapes and -unsexy- ATC optimization.


That´s part of the equation, too. But it´s harder to get there and means politics needs to get to working level and take decisions, which can be annyoing (read: ATC rearrangement etc). Staying on a more global "target percentage level" is easier for them. But doesn´t bring benefits. You need to get down to work at one point.

My feeling is that hydrogene and e-mobility flying are a good option for regional traffic, for everything above, say from Embraer 175 level, the benefits of liquids = kerosene are higher than those of H2.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
720B
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:52 am

Airbus 'POD' configuration for hydrogen fuel cell technology engines

Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:54 pm

Airbus 'POD' configuration for hydrogen fuel cell technology engines

Interesting link about Airbus research on hydrogen fuel cell technology airplane engines.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories ... LfHMYnD8uc
 
720B
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:52 am

Re: Airbus 'POD' configuration for hydrogen fuel cell technology engines

Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 pm

And this link has more information on how the hydrogen cells work


https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... ation.html
 
User avatar
cirrusdragoon
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:42 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:46 am

Really cool
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1985
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:27 pm

Noshow wrote:
Lightweight is the way to go and new aerodynamic shapes and -unsexy- ATC optimization.


That´s part of the equation, too. But it´s harder to get there and means politics needs to get to working level and take decisions, which can be annyoing (read: ATC rearrangement etc). Staying on a more global "target percentage level" is easier for them. But doesn´t bring benefits. You need to get down to work at one point.

My feeling is that hydrogene and e-mobility flying are a good option for regional traffic, for everything above, say from Embraer 175 level, the benefits of liquids = kerosene are higher than those of H2.[/quote]

New aerodynamic shapes is largely a non-starter. A blended wing would be far more efficient than the existing fuselage configurations. However, this would also mean a windowless cabin, and study after study has shown that passengers feel less claustrophobic and more relaxed in cabins that have large windows.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:34 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Lightweight is the way to go and new aerodynamic shapes and -unsexy- ATC optimization.


That´s part of the equation, too. But it´s harder to get there and means politics needs to get to working level and take decisions, which can be annyoing (read: ATC rearrangement etc). Staying on a more global "target percentage level" is easier for them. But doesn´t bring benefits. You need to get down to work at one point.

My feeling is that hydrogene and e-mobility flying are a good option for regional traffic, for everything above, say from Embraer 175 level, the benefits of liquids = kerosene are higher than those of H2.

New aerodynamic shapes is largely a non-starter. A blended wing would be far more efficient than the existing fuselage configurations. However, this would also mean a windowless cabin, and study after study has shown that passengers feel less claustrophobic and more relaxed in cabins that have large windows.


I think the EU wants to take lessons from the past decade on their stance regarding cleaner energy and mobility solutions. Denmark was the most progressive with wind energy and thus have an big wind energy industry, China is big on BEV's and thus the biggest investments in BEV plants are being made in China, EU can be progressive on Hydrogen which can lead to an big hydrogen industry.

So, I think they will start taxing kerosene more and force the industry to shift...
 
Lukas757
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 11:59 pm

Re: Airbus innovation - removable fuel cell propeller propulsion system

Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:35 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Agreed. Just think about the delivery trucks in cities which drive on average a couple of 100 meters between stops (if at all) and come out at 30 liters or more per kilometer, whilst at the same time only doing 100 km per day.


You are around 2 digits off here. It should be 0,3 liters per Kilometer.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos