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Lemieux
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AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:55 am

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1340 ... 57216?s=19

Surprised to see MAN included, but PRG and KEF aren't really shocking
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:57 am

I more surprised they aren’t suspended but just outright cut.
 
rjbesikof
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:01 am

Venice is also gone for S21 but will return in S22 per the source
 
deltairlines
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:05 am

S21 is still going to be a fraction of pre-Covid, and even 2022 is likely to be down a big number. On the US side, the focus will be on American feeding Heathrow (and to an extent Madrid), with Delta focusing on Paris/Amsterdam and United focusing on Frankfurt (and to an extent Munich and Zurich). American moving to Terminal 5 permanently at Heathrow will be a huge improvement to the feed onto BA into Europe strategy in terms of connecting - you can make the argument that for their customers, maybe only Amsterdam is better for connecting.

MAN is a high-frequency flight from Heathrow, so not a huge hassle.
 
usairways85
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:14 am

PRG and KEF are no surprise. MAN is a little, but not as much of a surprise after EI's MAN plan. The JV probably doesn't need all that lift from MAN
 
Pi7472000
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:44 am

I am not surprised they are cut at all. I am surprised there are not more cuts. It will take a while to get this vaccine up and running to where boarders will even open this summer without quarantine. I could see just LHR, CDG, FRA for the summer.
 
rjbesikof
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:03 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
I am not surprised they are cut at all. I am surprised there are not more cuts. It will take a while to get this vaccine up and running to where boarders will even open this summer without quarantine. I could see just LHR, CDG, FRA for the summer.


With the UK's new testing protocol, I think LHR is a given. I don't think they are running FRA from PHL. Are they doing any additional cuts to CLT's TATL?
 
UA748i
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:28 am

Thats too bad. I was contemplating D2ing to PRG in the not so distant future

Budapest it is.
 
Lpbri
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:42 am

Until the A321XLR arrives......
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:50 am

MAN is shocking to me.

PHL-MAN was one of US's most profitable TATL routes, and was one of the first routes to see the A333 upon the types introduction in 2000. When other destinations were seasonally down-gauged to a 762 MAN was consistently an A333, and I've been told that the route had a number of corporate contracts. US also ran CLT-MAN for a season with a 752...supposedly the flight performed well but did not return after the merger was finalized.

After the AA merger, ORD-MAN went from a 763 to a 752 before being dropped, dropped JFK-MAN, and PHL-MAN went from an A333 to an A332 to a 787 before also being dropped. I wonder what happened.
 
Skyblue39
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:09 am

USAirALB wrote:
MAN is shocking to me.

PHL-MAN was one of US's most profitable TATL routes, and was one of the first routes to see the A333 upon the types introduction in 2000. When other destinations were seasonally down-gauged to a 762 MAN was consistently an A333, and I've been told that the route had a number of corporate contracts. US also ran CLT-MAN for a season with a 752...supposedly the flight performed well but did not return after the merger was finalized.

After the AA merger, ORD-MAN went from a 763 to a 752 before being dropped, dropped JFK-MAN, and PHL-MAN went from an A333 to an A332 to a 787 before also being dropped. I wonder what happened.


And so this is the end of US metal at MAN.
Delta, United and now American have all left Manchester.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:17 am

USAirALB wrote:
MAN is shocking to me.

PHL-MAN was one of US's most profitable TATL routes, and was one of the first routes to see the A333 upon the types introduction in 2000. When other destinations were seasonally down-gauged to a 762 MAN was consistently an A333, and I've been told that the route had a number of corporate contracts. US also ran CLT-MAN for a season with a 752...supposedly the flight performed well but did not return after the merger was finalized.

After the AA merger, ORD-MAN went from a 763 to a 752 before being dropped, dropped JFK-MAN, and PHL-MAN went from an A333 to an A332 to a 787 before also being dropped. I wonder what happened.


PHL-MAN was very dependent upon Pharmaceutical Industry traffic. It was basically Pharma Execs in the front and chavs headed to Florida in the back -- with no corporate travel for the foreseeable future its not surprising it got chopped. I suspect it may be back on EI or on AA with an A321XLR when the economy picks up.
 
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enilria
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:26 am

USAirALB wrote:
MAN is shocking to me.

PHL-MAN was one of US's most profitable TATL routes, and was one of the first routes to see the A333 upon the types introduction in 2000. When other destinations were seasonally down-gauged to a 762 MAN was consistently an A333, and I've been told that the route had a number of corporate contracts. US also ran CLT-MAN for a season with a 752...supposedly the flight performed well but did not return after the merger was finalized.

After the AA merger, ORD-MAN went from a 763 to a 752 before being dropped, dropped JFK-MAN, and PHL-MAN went from an A333 to an A332 to a 787 before also being dropped. I wonder what happened.

EI is likely taking over the MAN flying
 
N292UX
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:27 am

Looking forward to seeing those B6 A321XLRs arriving in Manchester in 2022 :D
 
factsonly
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:56 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
I am not surprised they are cut at all. I am surprised there are not more cuts. It will take a while to get this vaccine up and running to where boarders will even open this summer without quarantine. I could see just LHR, CDG, FRA for the summer.


AA continues to operate DFW-AMS (AA9722) and PHL-AMS (9702) with B788 for freight.
This will certainy continue into S21.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aa9722
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aa9702
 
by738
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:33 am

Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.
 
aviator2000
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:04 am

by738 wrote:
Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.

That's what I thought. I'm not really familiar with the region, but wouldn't it make more sense to drop EDI before MAN?
 
Blerg
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:05 am

Didn't they also fly PHL-BUD? Would be surprising if Prague was cut but Budapest wasn't.

I have a feeling Athens will also be cut especially if Greece keeps its restrictions in place.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:31 pm

Not at all surprising as as KEF and PRG are leisure routes. The MAN cut is a bit surprising though it does further illustrate (as was discussed in the EI starting MAN-BOS/JFK/MCO flights) that the market doesn't really work well and isn't profitable. Summer 2021 is going to be very tough for TATL travel. There may be a bit of an uptick to core markets (LHR, CDG, AMS, FCO, MAD) but non core leisure routes are not going to be a thing in 2021. The PRG route was there due to the river boat cruise industry (BUD too). I suspect BUD will get cut as well for 2021. For the folks wondering why EDI appears to remain and MAN is cut, EDI has steady (no pun intended) demand for a variety of reasons, including business (BlackRock for instance, has a major presence there, and has a major operations center in Wilmington, DE) and while business travel will remain substantially down for some time, some of the EDI service is there for business markets.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:53 pm

N292UX wrote:
Looking forward to seeing those B6 A321XLRs arriving in Manchester in 2022 :D


If B6 can't find better destinations than MAN for its first few XLRs, it should move them from delivery right to a crusher and save the aggravation of trying to pretend TATL was a good idea. They can find decent numbers of MINT-paying customers to LON, PAR and MAD... MAN, I wouldn't bet on that.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:03 pm

by738 wrote:
Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.


aviator2000 wrote:
by738 wrote:
Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.

That's what I thought. I'm not really familiar with the region, but wouldn't it make more sense to drop EDI before MAN?


Fairly certain that EDI city/region is more attractive to US tourists than MAN. So factoring in US point of sale, and the fact that leisure traffic is/will be the first to rebound before business traffic, keeping EDI over MAN makes sense.

AA started flying to PRG and VCE in 2018 only, so it's not entirely surprising to see them cut, even though they are primarily leisure routes.

EDI can still get cut at a later point, mind you, but I understand the logic of keeping it for now.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:13 pm

Also, KEF was flown on a 757. These are now gone from the fleet. The smallest wide body at AA (788) is too much plane for that route anyway. Some of these aren't coming back until the A321XLR's arrive.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:17 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Also, KEF was flown on a 757. These are now gone from the fleet. The smallest wide body at AA (788) is too much plane for that route anyway. Some of these aren't coming back until the A321XLR's arrive.


AA can operate to KEF from the east coast with a standard B738, A319 or A320. No need for a MAX, NEO, LR or XLR, and no need for ETOPS either.

AC has been flying standard non-ETOPS, non-sharklet A319s to KEF from YYZ/YUL. So it's definitely doable if they wanted to keep KEF. I guess it's not a priority for now.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 pm

Blerg wrote:
Didn't they also fly PHL-BUD? Would be surprising if Prague was cut but Budapest wasn't.

I have a feeling Athens will also be cut especially if Greece keeps its restrictions in place.


BUD was permanently cancelled (along with BER, KRK and CMN) in the first round of cuts earlier this year.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:26 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
by738 wrote:
Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.


aviator2000 wrote:
AA started flying to PRG and VCE in 2018 only, so it's not entirely surprising to see themi cut, even though they are primarily leisure routes.


US launched PHL-VCE in 2005. It is a very well established.eoute.
 
aerace
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:34 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
by738 wrote:
Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.


aviator2000 wrote:
AA started flying to PRG and VCE in 2018 only, so it's not entirely surprising to see themi cut, even though they are primarily leisure routes.


US launched PHL-VCE in 2005. It is a very well established.eoute.


And VCE relies heavily on cruise traffic. We all know where that market is right now.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:43 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
by738 wrote:
Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.


aviator2000 wrote:
AA started flying to PRG and VCE in 2018 only, so it's not entirely surprising to see themi cut, even though they are primarily leisure routes.


US launched PHL-VCE in 2005. It is a very well established.eoute.


I meant to say PRG and BUD.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:48 pm

aerace wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:



US launched PHL-VCE in 2005. It is a very well established.eoute.


And VCE relies heavily on cruise traffic. We all know where that market is right now.


Not really. VCE is a major tourism destination in its own right. It sees some cruise passengers but it generally has a more balanced passenger profile, especially now that the huge ships have been banned.
 
David_itl
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:48 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Not at all surprising as as KEF and PRG are leisure routes. The MAN cut is a bit surprising though it does further illustrate (as was discussed in the EI starting MAN-BOS/JFK/MCO flights) that the market doesn't really work well and isn't profitable.


NO it does not.at all. The route started in 1998 and got upgraded to A330s inside 9 months due to the pointy end bit of the 767 being filled. That AA has run down JFK, ORD and PHL by putting on inferior aircraft then introducing an unreliable aircraft before really going after the regular premium payer by messing around with the frequency tells us all about how serious AA has been about MAN ops since getting into bed with BA. If the MAN market isn't there for profitable transatlantic ops, why was Thomas Cook Airlines projected to make £115 million profit predominately on the back of point to point long-haul traffic ex-MAN with no business class?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:52 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Also, KEF was flown on a 757. These are now gone from the fleet. The smallest wide body at AA (788) is too much plane for that route anyway. Some of these aren't coming back until the A321XLR's arrive.


AA can operate to KEF from the east coast with a standard B738, A319 or A320. No need for a MAX, NEO, LR or XLR, and no need for ETOPS either.

AC has been flying standard non-ETOPS, non-sharklet A319s to KEF from YYZ/YUL. So it's definitely doable if they wanted to keep KEF. I guess it's not a priority for now.


It can, but it won't. DL was operating domestic configured 752s and 753s to KEF, but US airlines won't use A319s or 737s TATL and I was not suggesting the XLR was needed to fly the route. KEF was a fad and the appeal of Iceland as a tourist destination was beginning to wane a bit before the pandemic. If Iceland sets up a bubble with the US, then sure, flights will resume, but for 2021, it looks increasingly unlikely.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:56 pm

David_itl wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not at all surprising as as KEF and PRG are leisure routes. The MAN cut is a bit surprising though it does further illustrate (as was discussed in the EI starting MAN-BOS/JFK/MCO flights) that the market doesn't really work well and isn't profitable.


NO it does not.at all. The route started in 1998 and got upgraded to A330s inside 9 months due to the pointy end bit of the 767 being filled. That AA has run down JFK, ORD and PHL by putting on inferior aircraft then introducing an unreliable aircraft before really going after the regular premium payer by messing around with the frequency tells us all about how serious AA has been about MAN ops since getting into bed with BA. If the MAN market isn't there for profitable transatlantic ops, why was Thomas Cook Airlines projected to make £115 million profit predominately on the back of point to point long-haul traffic ex-MAN with no business class?


AA was using the 787 on ORD-MAN for a time. It's not a question of the aircraft type at all. Brexit and the pandemic are dramatically reshaping non-LON flights between the US and the UK. AA was never boasting about MAN being central to the AA/BA cooperation which goes back all the way to the 1990s in origin. If the route isn't profitable, it is not getting flown. AA has actually made dramatic improvements to its long haul service, notably at JFK pre-pandemic by going all 777. The issue here is profitability and POS. Thomas Cook had it on the MAN end, not the US end.
 
Skyblue39
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:57 pm

David_itl wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not at all surprising as as KEF and PRG are leisure routes. The MAN cut is a bit surprising though it does further illustrate (as was discussed in the EI starting MAN-BOS/JFK/MCO flights) that the market doesn't really work well and isn't profitable.


NO it does not.at all. The route started in 1998 and got upgraded to A330s inside 9 months due to the pointy end bit of the 767 being filled. That AA has run down JFK, ORD and PHL by putting on inferior aircraft then introducing an unreliable aircraft before really going after the regular premium payer by messing around with the frequency tells us all about how serious AA has been about MAN ops since getting into bed with BA. If the MAN market isn't there for profitable transatlantic ops, why was Thomas Cook Airlines projected to make £115 million profit predominately on the back of point to point long-haul traffic ex-MAN with no business class?


Why with all the constant excuses when a route gets pulled? Constantly trying to justify it’s the airlines fault for equipment changes? Seems like Manchester is the only airport this happens to. The reality is that AA, UA and DL have pulled out entirely of Manchester on their own metal. Either every single route they’ve pulled (ORD, JFK, CLT, PHL, EWR, IAD is the airlines fault for putting wrong EQP or frequency changes on these routes, or the market is just simply not there. Please stop with blaming the airlines, it’s becoming silly now at this point. MAN is unable to sustain so many TATL routes and can easily pass traffic via LHR/DUB/AMS air with VS.
 
aerace
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:06 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
aerace wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

US launched PHL-VCE in 2005. It is a very well established.eoute.


And VCE relies heavily on cruise traffic. We all know where that market is right now.


Not really. VCE is a major tourism destination in its own right. It sees some cruise passengers but it generally has a more balanced passenger profile, especially now that the huge ships have been banned.


Agreed, but 1.7mm cruise pax is a big chunk...and Americans love their cruises. Regardless, it should be interesting to see if UA and DL follow suit. If there's next to no demand from Philly, I would suspect that it's not much better up the turnpike.
 
David_itl
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:37 pm

Skyblue39 wrote:
Why with all the constant excuses when a route gets pulled? Constantly trying to justify it’s the airlines fault for equipment changes? Seems like Manchester is the only airport this happens to. The reality is that AA, UA and DL have pulled out entirely of Manchester on their own metal. Either every single route they’ve pulled (ORD, JFK, CLT, PHL, EWR, IAD is the airlines fault for putting wrong EQP or frequency changes on these routes, or the market is just simply not there. Please stop with blaming the airlines, it’s becoming silly now at this point. MAN is unable to sustain so many TATL routes and can easily pass traffic via LHR/DUB/AMS air with VS.


Except the market is there. The longevity of the routes TELLS us that the market is there. That 1 airline ACTIVELY TELLS US that they are looking at expanding operations TELLS US THE MARKET IS THERE. That one of the routes never stood a chance is not about MAN but about an airlnie merger. That we in the MAN area have seen routes ruined by what those airlines have done appears to not even compute in some people's minds

Tell me, if you were a business traveller whose job was within 20 minutes of MAN and your main export market was around the PHL area. You regularly flew the route WITH ZERO PROBLEMS when USAirways was around then AA takes them over and all of a sudden you don't know if your flight will run next week, you don't know if your flight turns up on time, you don't know if you will be getting a shabby aircraft. Would YOU book the non-stop flight or do as they want you to do and go over LHR? I repeat. Thomas Cook Airlines was on course for £115 million profit from principally the lack-of-yield backwater operation to mostly leisure destination from a base where it appears some people think only country bumpkins live And if the market isn't there, EXACTLY WHY is Aer Lingus going to run routes that have no earthly chance of making money as you, the shining light of the world, have decided that MAN cannot sustain routes. And if EI takes over the PHL run, does this not TOTALLY destroy the idea that MAN doesn't work?
 
Skyblue39
Posts: 500
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:41 pm

David_itl wrote:
Skyblue39 wrote:
Why with all the constant excuses when a route gets pulled? Constantly trying to justify it’s the airlines fault for equipment changes? Seems like Manchester is the only airport this happens to. The reality is that AA, UA and DL have pulled out entirely of Manchester on their own metal. Either every single route they’ve pulled (ORD, JFK, CLT, PHL, EWR, IAD is the airlines fault for putting wrong EQP or frequency changes on these routes, or the market is just simply not there. Please stop with blaming the airlines, it’s becoming silly now at this point. MAN is unable to sustain so many TATL routes and can easily pass traffic via LHR/DUB/AMS air with VS.


Except the market is there. The longevity of the routes TELLS us that the market is there. That 1 airline ACTIVELY TELLS US that they are looking at expanding operations TELLS US THE MARKET IS THERE. That one of the routes never stood a chance is not about MAN but about an airlnie merger. That we in the MAN area have seen routes ruined by what those airlines have done appears to not even compute in some people's minds

Tell me, if you were a business traveller whose job was within 20 minutes of MAN and your main export market was around the PHL area. You regularly flew the route WITH ZERO PROBLEMS when USAirways was around then AA takes them over and all of a sudden you don't know if your flight will run next week, you don't know if your flight turns up on time, you don't know if you will be getting a shabby aircraft. Would YOU book the non-stop flight or do as they want you to do and go over LHR? I repeat. Thomas Cook Airlines was on course for £115 million profit from principally the lack-of-yield backwater operation to mostly leisure destination from a base where it appears some people think only country bumpkins live And if the market isn't there, EXACTLY WHY is Aer Lingus going to run routes that have no earthly chance of making money as you, the shining light of the world, have decided that MAN cannot sustain routes. And if EI takes over the PHL run, does this not TOTALLY destroy the idea that MAN doesn't work?


I clearly touched a nerve when you have to resort to using Caps!
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2823
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:52 pm

David_itl wrote:
Skyblue39 wrote:
Why with all the constant excuses when a route gets pulled? Constantly trying to justify it’s the airlines fault for equipment changes? Seems like Manchester is the only airport this happens to. The reality is that AA, UA and DL have pulled out entirely of Manchester on their own metal. Either every single route they’ve pulled (ORD, JFK, CLT, PHL, EWR, IAD is the airlines fault for putting wrong EQP or frequency changes on these routes, or the market is just simply not there. Please stop with blaming the airlines, it’s becoming silly now at this point. MAN is unable to sustain so many TATL routes and can easily pass traffic via LHR/DUB/AMS air with VS.


Except the market is there. The longevity of the routes TELLS us that the market is there. That 1 airline ACTIVELY TELLS US that they are looking at expanding operations TELLS US THE MARKET IS THERE. That one of the routes never stood a chance is not about MAN but about an airlnie merger. That we in the MAN area have seen routes ruined by what those airlines have done appears to not even compute in some people's minds

Tell me, if you were a business traveller whose job was within 20 minutes of MAN and your main export market was around the PHL area. You regularly flew the route WITH ZERO PROBLEMS when USAirways was around then AA takes them over and all of a sudden you don't know if your flight will run next week, you don't know if your flight turns up on time, you don't know if you will be getting a shabby aircraft. Would YOU book the non-stop flight or do as they want you to do and go over LHR? I repeat. Thomas Cook Airlines was on course for £115 million profit from principally the lack-of-yield backwater operation to mostly leisure destination from a base where it appears some people think only country bumpkins live And if the market isn't there, EXACTLY WHY is Aer Lingus going to run routes that have no earthly chance of making money as you, the shining light of the world, have decided that MAN cannot sustain routes. And if EI takes over the PHL run, does this not TOTALLY destroy the idea that MAN doesn't work?

If the market was there they’d fly the route.
 
factsonly
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm

Image
 
by738
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:01 pm

as much as admire local enthusiasm... it has to be someones fault?
 
MAH4546
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:28 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
by738 wrote:
Yet EDI apparently continues with 787’s.... something not right there.

That's what I thought. I'm not really familiar with the region, but wouldn't it make more sense to drop EDI before MAN?


Edinburgh has strong U.S. point of sale. Manchester does not.

Also the Aer Lingus plan to fly long-haul from Manchester is part of the American Airlines JBA so without a doubt was a factor here.
 
runway23
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Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:31 pm

David_itl wrote:

Except the market is there. The longevity of the routes TELLS us that the market is there. That 1 airline ACTIVELY TELLS US that they are looking at expanding operations TELLS US THE MARKET IS THERE. That one of the routes never stood a chance is not about MAN but about an airlnie merger. That we in the MAN area have seen routes ruined by what those airlines have done appears to not even compute in some people's minds


Let's just blame everything on the merger then and forget that a substantial part of the AA leadership is from US. Are you trying to say they are all conniving against MAN in hour long meetings ?

MAN has seen DL exit in favour of VS, AA in favour of EI (probably) and UA seems to believe it can serve the market otherwise. IMHO, it proves that MAN is best served with European brands and high density aircraft as it is POS skewed and fairly low yielding. For AA, it's not as if there aren't alternative options - DUB and LHR are very short flights from MAN.

MIflyer12 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Looking forward to seeing those B6 A321XLRs arriving in Manchester in 2022 :D


If B6 can't find better destinations than MAN for its first few XLRs, it should move them from delivery right to a crusher and save the aggravation of trying to pretend TATL was a good idea. They can find decent numbers of MINT-paying customers to LON, PAR and MAD... MAN, I wouldn't bet on that.


MAD isn't that high yielding market. If B6 is going after forward cabin pax they will try LON, PAR, AMS, FRA, MUC, ZRH, GVA, BRU, MXP first.

Thenoflyzone wrote:
AA can operate to KEF from the east coast with a standard B738, A319 or A320. No need for a MAX, NEO, LR or XLR, and no need for ETOPS either.


Not sure if it has changed, but the trans-atlantic AA/BA JV used to have a clause whereby all carriers needed lie-flat on trans-atlantic flights. Even if the clause doesn't exist anymore, I'm not sure KEF is presently worth the effort.
 
aviator2000
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 am

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:57 pm

runway23 wrote:
David_itl wrote:

Except the market is there. The longevity of the routes TELLS us that the market is there. That 1 airline ACTIVELY TELLS US that they are looking at expanding operations TELLS US THE MARKET IS THERE. That one of the routes never stood a chance is not about MAN but about an airlnie merger. That we in the MAN area have seen routes ruined by what those airlines have done appears to not even compute in some people's minds


Let's just blame everything on the merger then and forget that a substantial part of the AA leadership is from US. Are you trying to say they are all conniving against MAN in hour long meetings ?

MAN has seen DL exit in favour of VS, AA in favour of EI (probably) and UA seems to believe it can serve the market otherwise. IMHO, it proves that MAN is best served with European brands and high density aircraft as it is POS skewed and fairly low yielding. For AA, it's not as if there aren't alternative options - DUB and LHR are very short flights from MAN.

MIflyer12 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Looking forward to seeing those B6 A321XLRs arriving in Manchester in 2022 :D


If B6 can't find better destinations than MAN for its first few XLRs, it should move them from delivery right to a crusher and save the aggravation of trying to pretend TATL was a good idea. They can find decent numbers of MINT-paying customers to LON, PAR and MAD... MAN, I wouldn't bet on that.


MAD isn't that high yielding market. If B6 is going after forward cabin pax they will try LON, PAR, AMS, FRA, MUC, ZRH, GVA, BRU, MXP first.

Thenoflyzone wrote:
AA can operate to KEF from the east coast with a standard B738, A319 or A320. No need for a MAX, NEO, LR or XLR, and no need for ETOPS either.


Not sure if it has changed, but the trans-atlantic AA/BA JV used to have a clause whereby all carriers needed lie-flat on trans-atlantic flights. Even if the clause doesn't exist anymore, I'm not sure KEF is presently worth the effort.

GVA, MUC, BRU, MXP before Madrid? :D Please... don't make me laugh..
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4362
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:03 pm

runway23 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
AA can operate to KEF from the east coast with a standard B738, A319 or A320. No need for a MAX, NEO, LR or XLR, and no need for ETOPS either.


Not sure if it has changed, but the trans-atlantic AA/BA JV used to have a clause whereby all carriers needed lie-flat on trans-atlantic flights. Even if the clause doesn't exist anymore, I'm not sure KEF is presently worth the effort.


It is still there. It says that all business-class seats have to be lie flat but it doesn't say that there has to be a business class. AA had A321NEO's scheduled to KEF and SNN for the summer and they were just selling the forward cabin as premium economy instead of business. The domestic F and International PY seats are exactly the same so it makes sense.
 
runway23
Posts: 2428
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:43 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
GVA, MUC, BRU, MXP before Madrid? :D Please... don't make me laugh..


If B6 is going for premium traffic then yes, any of those before MAD. Go and look at the yield of MAD to the US compared to any of the destinations I listed, hint it isn't pretty.
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3566
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:51 pm

runway23 wrote:
aviator2000 wrote:
GVA, MUC, BRU, MXP before Madrid? :D Please... don't make me laugh..


If B6 is going for premium traffic then yes, any of those before MAD. Go and look at the yield of MAD to the US compared to any of the destinations I listed, hint it isn't pretty.


Just from B6 they have already shown that they will more likely start flights to DUB, LIS and MAD over the other cities. They showed a map of possible EU cities they could serve and the fathest East was BCN. Can't find it but it was on one of the Interim/Annual presentations if I'm not mistaken. Out of those though DUB probably will come first with LIS being last.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MA?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:55 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I more surprised they aren’t suspended but just outright cut.


Based on comments AA / Vasu Raja made last month, it sounds like seasonal European routes/destinations are at high risk of being cut for good. In exchange, AA will more heavily rely on partners BA/IB to funnel passengers to central / Eastern European destinations.

”The other thing is also, in long-haul international. Again, another strange thing which the travel segment which is down quite a lot too. But if you look at it in the history of American, any precursor company, whether it’s airways, AMR, you name it, we’ve always tended to struggle internationally with a low exception of Latin America.

And that is something we anticipate changing materially coming out of here. So that we’ve talked about Alaska and JetBlue and we have the same opportunity in TransAtlantic and in TransPacific. That they we’ve oriented our network, the way in which we’ve configured our airplanes, the way in which we’ve endeavored to go and win business into our system hasn’t been able to produce consistently profitable international results.

But we deploy a lot of expense internationally, those live bodies cost a lot of money. So, the first part of that, like we talked about is being a lot more efficient with fleet deployment. So, we can deploy fewer airplanes to produce the same revenue. But the other thing is, is deploying them in a way we can generate year round revenues and we anticipate a lot of things both in how we connect in our partner hubs in Heathrow, Madrid....”


https://seekingalpha.com/article/438981 ... -decisions
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7245
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MA?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:05 am

MrPeanut wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
I more surprised they aren’t suspended but just outright cut.


Based on comments AA / Vasu Raja made last month, it sounds like seasonal European routes/destinations are at high risk of being cut for good. In exchange, AA will more heavily rely on partners BA/IB to funnel passengers to central / Eastern European destinations.

”The other thing is also, in long-haul international. Again, another strange thing which the travel segment which is down quite a lot too. But if you look at it in the history of American, any precursor company, whether it’s airways, AMR, you name it, we’ve always tended to struggle internationally with a low exception of Latin America.

And that is something we anticipate changing materially coming out of here. So that we’ve talked about Alaska and JetBlue and we have the same opportunity in TransAtlantic and in TransPacific. That they we’ve oriented our network, the way in which we’ve configured our airplanes, the way in which we’ve endeavored to go and win business into our system hasn’t been able to produce consistently profitable international results.

But we deploy a lot of expense internationally, those live bodies cost a lot of money. So, the first part of that, like we talked about is being a lot more efficient with fleet deployment. So, we can deploy fewer airplanes to produce the same revenue. But the other thing is, is deploying them in a way we can generate year round revenues and we anticipate a lot of things both in how we connect in our partner hubs in Heathrow, Madrid....”


This all ties into AA moving into T5 at Heathrow. The T3 to T5 transfer was a very weak link for AA/BA, especially since DL/KL and UA/LH both operate out of the same terminal complex at AMS and FRA (that being said, CDG is almost as bad as Heathrow). Now with everything under one roof, it will drastically reduce MCT to streamline connections. I believe AA and IB were already co-located at MAD as well, and AA has four daily flights (JFK, MIA, DFW, PHL plus CLT seasonally) to feed into Iberia's network. Now, Iberia's European network is nowhere near what BA offers, but they provide strong support of Spain, Portugal and France plus added flows into larger, more Central European cities.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/438981 ... -decisions
 
dfw88
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MA?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:40 am

MrPeanut wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
I more surprised they aren’t suspended but just outright cut.


Based on comments AA / Vasu Raja made last month, it sounds like seasonal European routes/destinations are at high risk of being cut for good. In exchange, AA will more heavily rely on partners BA/IB to funnel passengers to central / Eastern European destinations.

”The other thing is also, in long-haul international. Again, another strange thing which the travel segment which is down quite a lot too. But if you look at it in the history of American, any precursor company, whether it’s airways, AMR, you name it, we’ve always tended to struggle internationally with a low exception of Latin America.

And that is something we anticipate changing materially coming out of here. So that we’ve talked about Alaska and JetBlue and we have the same opportunity in TransAtlantic and in TransPacific. That they we’ve oriented our network, the way in which we’ve configured our airplanes, the way in which we’ve endeavored to go and win business into our system hasn’t been able to produce consistently profitable international results.

But we deploy a lot of expense internationally, those live bodies cost a lot of money. So, the first part of that, like we talked about is being a lot more efficient with fleet deployment. So, we can deploy fewer airplanes to produce the same revenue. But the other thing is, is deploying them in a way we can generate year round revenues and we anticipate a lot of things both in how we connect in our partner hubs in Heathrow, Madrid....”


https://seekingalpha.com/article/438981 ... -decisions


Having heard Vasu say things like this the past few months I really don't think you're interpreting his comment correctly. I think he's strictly talking about the COVID recovery period. Many of these routes that have been cut made money in the past. Those that did could certainly return in the future. But for the next year or two, while things ramp up, yes, of course, AA will focus on less on thin routes and more on their partner's hubs. DL and UA and anyone who wants to stay in business will do the same.
 
User avatar
Chasensfo
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:49 am

MAN is surprising, given how long AA has had consistent service there and with it being a much more popular destination than PRG and KEF, which aren't very surprising cuts these days.
 
bourbon
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:15 am

David_itl wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not at all surprising as as KEF and PRG are leisure routes. The MAN cut is a bit surprising though it does further illustrate (as was discussed in the EI starting MAN-BOS/JFK/MCO flights) that the market doesn't really work well and isn't profitable.


NO it does not.at all. The route started in 1998 and got upgraded to A330s inside 9 months due to the pointy end bit of the 767 being filled. That AA has run down JFK, ORD and PHL by putting on inferior aircraft then introducing an unreliable aircraft before really going after the regular premium payer by messing around with the frequency tells us all about how serious AA has been about MAN ops since getting into bed with BA. If the MAN market isn't there for profitable transatlantic ops, why was Thomas Cook Airlines projected to make £115 million profit predominately on the back of point to point long-haul traffic ex-MAN with no business class?

Thomas Cook went under and didn’t make that 155mill profit.
US Air aircraft were absolute dumps. MAN might have been one place they could fill a plane up to for profit because the other airlines were making money on routes of actual significance.

That AA you keep talking about btw are the execs from America West and US Air that ruined American Airlines.
 
Onlyturnright
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:55 pm

Re: AA cuts KEF, PRG, and MAN

Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:48 am

bourbon wrote:
David_itl wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not at all surprising as as KEF and PRG are leisure routes. The MAN cut is a bit surprising though it does further illustrate (as was discussed in the EI starting MAN-BOS/JFK/MCO flights) that the market doesn't really work well and isn't profitable.


NO it does not.at all. The route started in 1998 and got upgraded to A330s inside 9 months due to the pointy end bit of the 767 being filled. That AA has run down JFK, ORD and PHL by putting on inferior aircraft then introducing an unreliable aircraft before really going after the regular premium payer by messing around with the frequency tells us all about how serious AA has been about MAN ops since getting into bed with BA. If the MAN market isn't there for profitable transatlantic ops, why was Thomas Cook Airlines projected to make £115 million profit predominately on the back of point to point long-haul traffic ex-MAN with no business class?

Thomas Cook went under and didn’t make that 155mill profit.
US Air aircraft were absolute dumps. MAN might have been one place they could fill a plane up to for profit because the other airlines were making money on routes of actual significance.

That AA you keep talking about btw are the execs from America West and US Air that ruined American Airlines.


Thomas Cook as a group went under with huge debts. But as an entity, Thomas Cook ‘the airline’ was very profitable and was projected to make ‘up to and beyond’ £100m had the group survived. Unfortunately, the airline was dragged down by the group.

Back in the mid-late 2000’s, when there was a shift to digital platforms, Thomas Cook were still opening shops. When they acquired Co-op travel and My Travel they also took those stores on too. Where I grew up in a suburb of Manchester, my small town of roughly 40,000 people had 3(!) Thomas Cook shops! At a peak I’m sure they had something along the lines of 1100 or so stores nationwide. Just massive overheads. A total lack of planning for, and adapting to the changing trends of how we book holidays helped the groups demise. The airline was a very profitable part of that group. But unfortunately all the profits were washed down the drain.

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