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Andrw
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Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:39 pm

I am sorry if it's been posted already.

Seems like Lion Air's bad safety record is going to be updated...

...yet again.

Fortunately, this time, no injuries were reported

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/lion ... indonesia/

Best

Andrw
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:53 pm

Shut the whole thing down.
 
737max8
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:58 pm

Never shocked to read Lion Air and 'skids off runway' together
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:01 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Shut the whole thing down.

I know it’s got a sketchy safety record but things are being done to improve it I’m pretty sure the 737 will be as safe as any comparable when fully back in service, I think shutting the 737 down is too extreme.

Fred


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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:07 pm

This thread is starting off just like i figured it would.
 
Andrw
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:10 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
This thread is starting off just like i figured it would.


I think it may go towards discussing whether or not Lion Air as an airline should be shut down. Their pilots, yes, fly in very challenging environment, but they are not the only one. The only explanations here I would be thinking about would be:
- lack of properly trained pilots
- lack of properly trained ground staff to keep aircrafts in good condition
- a mixture of both

Andrw
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:17 pm

If you read the OP’s link, the aircraft appears to have landed safely, performed a 180 degree turn on the runway (I’m guessing that’s common at this airport - please correct me if I’m wrong) and proceeded to skid off the runway as it was taxiing back, at 9 kts according to FR24 data. Not sure how the crew managed to do that if true.

Not making any excuses for Lion Air’s record, but this appears to be a pretty minor incident, compared to some of the things we’ve seen in Indonesia in recent years.
 
Theseus
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:20 pm

Andrw wrote:
I am sorry if it's been posted already.


I was about to say "yes, it has been posted quite a few times in the past" but I guess this is not what you meant...

Regardless, Sam Chui has more information:

https://samchui.com/2020/12/21/lion-air ... -DmeC9h1HQ

It appears to have happened at taxi speed, and the pictures show no serious damage.
 
Antarius
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:23 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
If you read the OP’s link, the aircraft appears to have landed safely, performed a 180 degree turn on the runway (I’m guessing that’s common at this airport - please correct me if I’m wrong) and proceeded to skid off the runway as it was taxiing back, at 9 kts according to FR24 data. Not sure how the crew managed to do that if true.

Not making any excuses for Lion Air’s record, but this appears to be a pretty minor incident, compared to some of the things we’ve seen in Indonesia in recent years.


This. Before we panic about the headline, its important to know the above facts. I read somewhere that it might have been a tire rupture that caused the aircraft to veer off the runway; however not sure yet.

To your statement about backtracking, yes that is required as the airport does not have a full length taxiway.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:42 pm

I fear the guilty word here might be "skidded." At those speeds reported, is that even possible, considering it's impossible to spin the wheels of an airliner, which induces most vehicle skids? It seems like every time an aircraft leaves the hard surface for the soft, mushy surface, it "skidded." Thankfully, it didn't "burst" into flames.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:55 pm

"Skids off the runway" sounds pretty violent ... until you realise that the aircraft was at taxi speeds and sustained little if any damage.

It's rainy season in Indonesia, such incidents are comparable to skidding off the taxiway on snow in colder climates. It's a fundamental risk of the local climate and can happen to the best pilots.

AvHerald with photos: http://avherald.com/h?article=4e0bc8a7&opt=0
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:05 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Shut the whole thing down.

I know it’s got a sketchy safety record but things are being done to improve it I’m pretty sure the 737 will be as safe as any comparable when fully back in service, I think shutting the 737 down is too extreme.


I was referring to Lion Air, not the 737. The airlines' safety record is atrocious.
 
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KPDX
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:14 pm

Ahhh yes... Aviation is slowly returning to normalcy!
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:25 pm

http://avherald.com/h?article=4e0bc8a7&opt=0
Looking at these photos, the airplane is well into the grass, all landing gear. Wonder what speed they were at for this to occur.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:07 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
I fear the guilty word here might be "skidded." At those speeds reported, is that even possible, considering it's impossible to spin the wheels of an airliner, which induces most vehicle skids? It seems like every time an aircraft leaves the hard surface for the soft, mushy surface, it "skidded." Thankfully, it didn't "burst" into flames.


Not a excuse for Lion Air but in condition of heavy rain aquaplaning can bring you out of control even in your tiny car ! At the end of the day when you "skidded" with your car of the road the police officer is happy you`re fine and your car went not in flames.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:22 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Shut the whole thing down.

I know it’s got a sketchy safety record but things are being done to improve it I’m pretty sure the 737 will be as safe as any comparable when fully back in service, I think shutting the 737 down is too extreme.


I was referring to Lion Air, not the 737. The airlines' safety record is atrocious.

LionAir's prior history is why, in my opinion, the first MAX issue wasn't investigated properly. Take a stroll down memory lane on how the assumption LionAir was to blame (they still lack a proper safety oversight, IMHO):

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/lion- ... on%20board.

It was June 2018 Indonesia last was removed from the EU blacklist:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -blacklist

Lightsaber
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kalvado
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:28 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Shut the whole thing down.

Some more shutdown candidates for you:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1455363&p=22558801
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453323&p=22482169
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:59 pm

That's why they buy them in bulk.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
zuckie13
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:03 pm

UPS757Pilot wrote:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4e0bc8a7&opt=0
Looking at these photos, the airplane is well into the grass, all landing gear. Wonder what speed they were at for this to occur.


Yeah, same thought I had. Maybe they tried to turn there to avoid having to go to the end to turn around and were a bit faster than ideal if it was very wet when they tried to make that turn.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:38 pm

I think the more accurate description is "Lion Air pilots find ditch while back-taxiing on runway".

I'm wondering if they mistook the edge marking lights (assuming the runway had them) as centerline lights.

Given the speed and location, I imagine this is a "visibility" issue.

Other possible outcomes:

- Single engine taxi / differential thrust?
- Loss of nose gear steering (incorrectly shut down hyd system?)
 
outbackair
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:45 pm

737max8 wrote:
Never shocked to read Lion Air and 'skids off runway' together


Never shocked to read such posts. Four days ago a Spirit Airlines A320 skidded off the runway in bad weather. I don't see the same comments when that happens.
 
737max8
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:13 pm

outbackair wrote:
737max8 wrote:
Never shocked to read Lion Air and 'skids off runway' together


Never shocked to read such posts. Four days ago a Spirit Airlines A320 skidded off the runway in bad weather. I don't see the same comments when that happens.


Because they haven't had a crash like every 2 years. Lion Air's history speaks for themselves, don't come at me.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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orlandocfi
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:48 pm

outbackair wrote:
737max8 wrote:
Never shocked to read Lion Air and 'skids off runway' together


Never shocked to read such posts. Four days ago a Spirit Airlines A320 skidded off the runway in bad weather. I don't see the same comments when that happens.


It was a taxiway, not a runway. And Spirit has not made a habit of wrecking planes the way Lion has.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:03 am

Isn´t the 737 prone to such incidents due to higher landing speeds?
 
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zeke
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:47 am

outbackair wrote:

Never shocked to read such posts. Four days ago a Spirit Airlines A320 skidded off the runway in bad weather. I don't see the same comments when that happens.


Spirit was on a normal taxiway in okay weather however braking action was poor. End result like this event whilst taxing the aircraft exited the paved surface.

This event appears to have occurred after the landing phase, the aircraft turns around on the runway to backtrack.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:05 am

RalXWB wrote:
Isn´t the 737 prone to such incidents due to higher landing speeds?

It was taxiing.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:59 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I know it’s got a sketchy safety record but things are being done to improve it I’m pretty sure the 737 will be as safe as any comparable when fully back in service, I think shutting the 737 down is too extreme.


I was referring to Lion Air, not the 737. The airlines' safety record is atrocious.

LionAir's prior history is why, in my opinion, the first MAX issue wasn't investigated properly. Take a stroll down memory lane on how the assumption LionAir was to blame (they still lack a proper safety oversight, IMHO):

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/lion- ... on%20board.

It was June 2018 Indonesia last was removed from the EU blacklist:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -blacklist

Lightsaber

Yes, I was one who, on the news of the first MAX crash thought, “Oh, it’s just Lion Air. Those clowns could crash a flying carpet”. I’m sure that there are many others, including at a Boeing, who had the same reaction. .
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Jetty
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:09 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
Shut the whole thing down.

I know it’s got a sketchy safety record but things are being done to improve it I’m pretty sure the 737 will be as safe as any comparable when fully back in service, I think shutting the 737 down is too extreme.


I was referring to Lion Air, not the 737. The airlines' safety record is atrocious.

The recent 737 safety record isn’t any different, let’s hope they both improve instead of shutting them down.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:09 pm

RalXWB wrote:
Isn´t the 737 prone to such incidents due to higher landing speeds?


The main culprit is the infrastructure not meeting the aviation boom in the third world.

Suddenly everyone wants to fly, there is not enough money or land to build a proper airport, end up building minimum facility airports where possible. No rwy grooves, no EMAS, fence not good enough for a ranch, no animal control, not even regular runway rubber removal. Throw in ITCZ or similar to the mix.

Ideally an ATR72 would be safe enough, but got a good deal on 737/A320 and crew costs are almost same as ATR72, by packing 189(vs 72) pax probably make a profit on the trip.

737 and/or pilots will make the end of the list of reasons.
All posts are just opinions.
 
NZ321
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:51 pm

The title of this thread is a bit misleading. I don't call taxying off the taxiway at this speed a skid - more like that the pilot taxying the aircraft lost directional control or maybe was distracted. "Skids off Runway" implies something rather similar to what we envisage when a car skids; more dramatic and at somewhat faster speed...
Plane mad!
 
trent768
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:21 pm

It's probably a direct translation from Indonesian news source. Most media use the paid per click scheme, so the reporter tried to made the title as spectacular as possible. For example, every diversion will end up as "emergency landing" on the news. Years ago, this kind of stuff will be categorised as accident by those online news sites.

Not to mention that almost everyone in Indonesia has some kind of love-hate relationship with the airline. So bashing JT is easy money for the contributors.
 
Sokes
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:42 pm

SEPilot wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LionAir's prior history is why, in my opinion, the first MAX issue wasn't investigated properly. Take a stroll down memory lane on how the assumption LionAir was to blame (they still lack a proper safety oversight, IMHO):

Lightsaber

Yes, I was one who, on the news of the first MAX crash thought, “Oh, it’s just Lion Air. Those clowns could crash a flying carpet”. I’m sure that there are many others, including at a Boeing, who had the same reaction. .

MCAS was discussed immediately.
Even if it had to be the airline's fault, the lack of redundancy required to err on the side of caution.
Was it really not investigated properly?
I believe Boeing did start work on changes, IIRC the software. So they knew very well.

Do you know how to fly a carpet?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
bhill
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:13 pm

Cannot blame MCAS for this one...what other system can they blame, other than the one in their skulls?
Carpe Pices
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:45 am

Sokes wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LionAir's prior history is why, in my opinion, the first MAX issue wasn't investigated properly. Take a stroll down memory lane on how the assumption LionAir was to blame (they still lack a proper safety oversight, IMHO):

Lightsaber

Yes, I was one who, on the news of the first MAX crash thought, “Oh, it’s just Lion Air. Those clowns could crash a flying carpet”. I’m sure that there are many others, including at a Boeing, who had the same reaction. .

MCAS was discussed immediately.
Even if it had to be the airline's fault, the lack of redundancy required to err on the side of caution.
Was it really not investigated properly?
I believe Boeing did start work on changes, IIRC the software. So they knew very well.

Do you know how to fly a carpet?

Yes, I understood immediately that MCAS was to blame. But I also understood that it was supposed to be handled like a runaway trim situation, which pilots are supposed to be trained for. I did not realize that the intermittent operation of the MCAS could cause confusion. As to how to fly a carpet, my understanding is that they are completely automatic; you tell it where to go and the carpet does the rest. Even simpler than my Cessna.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
blandy62
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:17 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

The main culprit is the infrastructure not meeting the aviation boom in the third world.



Nobody will say that Lionair doesn't have safety problem. But what you saw is right. The infrastructure, in a lot of airport in Indonesia (and lots of other places), is also part of the problem, not to mention the weather too
 
outbackair
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:36 am

blandy62 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

The main culprit is the infrastructure not meeting the aviation boom in the third world.



Nobody will say that Lionair doesn't have safety problem. But what you saw is right. The infrastructure, in a lot of airport in Indonesia (and lots of other places), is also part of the problem, not to mention the weather too


Well said. It's sad that so many on here (mostly from USA) seem to have so little understanding of what goes on in other parts of the world, other than their own 'perfect' nations.
 
Redd
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:13 pm

In the past few days, Sprint air, Air Canada, Calm Air, a private jet in Jacksonville, have all ended up off of a runway or taxiway. Lion air has 141 airplanes and fly in the toughest conditions for commercial aviation. Let's not start Lion Air bashing over a runway excursion.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:42 pm

blandy62 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

The main culprit is the infrastructure not meeting the aviation boom in the third world.



Nobody will say that Lionair doesn't have safety problem. But what you saw is right. The infrastructure, in a lot of airport in Indonesia (and lots of other places), is also part of the problem, not to mention the weather too

Is Lion Air the only airline using those airports? Because we don't hear about many other airlines in that part of the world with so many accidents.

Infrastructure might not be the best and be (part of) the problem; but it seems Lion Air is far from being exempt either.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:44 pm

Redd wrote:
In the past few days, Sprint air, Air Canada, Calm Air, a private jet in Jacksonville, have all ended up off of a runway or taxiway. Lion air has 141 airplanes and fly in the toughest conditions for commercial aviation. Let's not start Lion Air bashing over a runway excursion.

How often do Sprint Air, Air Canada and Calm Air have runway excursions or complete crashes?
Air Canada has 166 and also operates in pretty tough conditions (opposite to those that Lion Air operates in - very cold weather vs very rainy- but still no picnic).
 
Sokes
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:30 pm

SEPilot wrote:
As to how to fly a carpet, my understanding is that they are completely automatic; you tell it where to go and the carpet does the rest. Even simpler than my Cessna.

I didn't knew. Maybe I should get one. ;)
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JibberJim
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:50 pm

Sokes wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
As to how to fly a carpet, my understanding is that they are completely automatic; you tell it where to go and the carpet does the rest. Even simpler than my Cessna.

I didn't knew. Maybe I should get one. ;)


Don't bother, there's no belly space to haul fish.
 
blandy62
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:46 am

WayexTDI wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

The main culprit is the infrastructure not meeting the aviation boom in the third world.



Nobody will say that Lionair doesn't have safety problem. But what you saw is right. The infrastructure, in a lot of airport in Indonesia (and lots of other places), is also part of the problem, not to mention the weather too

Is Lion Air the only airline using those airports? Because we don't hear about many other airlines in that part of the world with so many accidents.

Infrastructure might not be the best and be (part of) the problem; but it seems Lion Air is far from being exempt either.



Look at the list of accidents in Indonesia and you will have an answer to your question
 
VSMUT
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:49 am

WayexTDI wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

The main culprit is the infrastructure not meeting the aviation boom in the third world.



Nobody will say that Lionair doesn't have safety problem. But what you saw is right. The infrastructure, in a lot of airport in Indonesia (and lots of other places), is also part of the problem, not to mention the weather too

Is Lion Air the only airline using those airports? Because we don't hear about many other airlines in that part of the world with so many accidents.

Infrastructure might not be the best and be (part of) the problem; but it seems Lion Air is far from being exempt either.


No, lots of airlines use those airports.

I've done a stint of contract flying (on the ATR) in Indonesia, and I honestly don't see the infrastructure as a problem. The airports are mostly just fine, long runways in decent condition.

I suspect the type might be partially at cause, although indirectly so. The 737-800 and -900ER have pretty high approach and landing speeds. Couple that with poor training, and you will see more incidents from runway overruns and unstabilized approaches. Looking at other Indonesian airlines, only Garuda flies the 737-800, and I suspect they have better training and less demanding schedules. The rest use ATRs, CRJs and A320s which land at much lower speeds. Even Lion Group uses a lot of A320s in its various subsidiaries, and we rarely see those running off the runways.
 
blandy62
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:12 am

Sriwijaya Air also operate the -800 and -900ER. But in this case, the approach speed doesn't seem to be an issue, as they left the runway either while backtracking or making the turn to backtrack. Seems it happened during heaving rain. So likely several contributing factors here
 
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zeke
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:01 am

VSMUT wrote:
I've done a stint of contract flying (on the ATR) in Indonesia, and I honestly don't see the infrastructure as a problem. The airports are mostly just fine, long runways in decent condition.
.


This runway is 9000’x150’ with a nice big turning node.

Wouldn’t be surprised if it was caused by the front tyre loss of traction when turned to maximum deflection. The line of turf in front of the starboard engine looks like what one sees with a plough.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:00 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

The main culprit is the infrastructure not meeting the aviation boom in the third world.



Nobody will say that Lionair doesn't have safety problem. But what you saw is right. The infrastructure, in a lot of airport in Indonesia (and lots of other places), is also part of the problem, not to mention the weather too

Is Lion Air the only airline using those airports? Because we don't hear about many other airlines in that part of the world with so many accidents.

Infrastructure might not be the best and be (part of) the problem; but it seems Lion Air is far from being exempt either.


They have a lot of thunderstorms and heavy rain. Then you also have relatively short runways and the 737-900 which has higher approach speeds because of its long fuselage. Plus the low-cost model means tight schedules and full loads. All of these things together are a dangerous combination.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:03 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
blandy62 wrote:

Nobody will say that Lionair doesn't have safety problem. But what you saw is right. The infrastructure, in a lot of airport in Indonesia (and lots of other places), is also part of the problem, not to mention the weather too

Is Lion Air the only airline using those airports? Because we don't hear about many other airlines in that part of the world with so many accidents.

Infrastructure might not be the best and be (part of) the problem; but it seems Lion Air is far from being exempt either.


They have a lot of thunderstorms and heavy rain. Then you also have relatively short runways and the 737-900 which has higher approach speeds because of its long fuselage. Plus the low-cost model means tight schedules and full loads. All of these things together are a dangerous combination.

But Lion Air is not the only airline operating in thunderstorms and heavy rain, nor on short runways, nor operating the 737-900, nor a tight schedule and full loads; if the combination of all those conditions make a deadly cocktail, then Lion Air picked the wrong aircraft (only variable easily modified) and are still responsible for their choice.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2493
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:25 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
But Lion Air is not the only airline operating in thunderstorms and heavy rain, nor on short runways, nor operating the 737-900, nor a tight schedule and full loads; if the combination of all those conditions make a deadly cocktail, then Lion Air picked the wrong aircraft (only variable easily modified) and are still responsible for their choice.

Correct, that's why other airlines also suffer similar incidents. They just don't get picked on as much... just recently a UA 738 sustained damage in a runway excursion at SJ. Compare the replies between the two threads.

Minor runway excursions happen all around the world, to all kinds of airlines and aircraft. Often, wet or icy runways are involved. Misjudging the turn during a backtrack also occurs frequently.

Some recent examples, including a few from South East Asia:

GA A333: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d9669c6
AA E145: https://avherald.com/h?article=4de46ae7
Astral B744: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d9f2c1c
XG B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=49bef9af
TK B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=4cf94b6d
Jetstar A320: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d0930cf
WS B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=4cee8595
AA CR9: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c2c7f4b
SG DH8D: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c9de94d
IX B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c9d4a5a
VN A321: http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbb586b
VJ A321: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d8ab7df
DL MD88: http://avherald.com/h?article=482b659f
TG B744: http://avherald.com/h?article=4bebc970
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14969
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:18 am

mxaxai wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
But Lion Air is not the only airline operating in thunderstorms and heavy rain, nor on short runways, nor operating the 737-900, nor a tight schedule and full loads; if the combination of all those conditions make a deadly cocktail, then Lion Air picked the wrong aircraft (only variable easily modified) and are still responsible for their choice.

Correct, that's why other airlines also suffer similar incidents. They just don't get picked on as much... just recently a UA 738 sustained damage in a runway excursion at SJ. Compare the replies between the two threads.

Minor runway excursions happen all around the world, to all kinds of airlines and aircraft. Often, wet or icy runways are involved. Misjudging the turn during a backtrack also occurs frequently.

Some recent examples, including a few from South East Asia:

GA A333: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d9669c6
AA E145: https://avherald.com/h?article=4de46ae7
Astral B744: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d9f2c1c
XG B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=49bef9af
TK B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=4cf94b6d
Jetstar A320: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d0930cf
WS B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=4cee8595
AA CR9: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c2c7f4b
SG DH8D: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c9de94d
IX B738: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c9d4a5a
VN A321: http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbb586b
VJ A321: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d8ab7df
DL MD88: http://avherald.com/h?article=482b659f
TG B744: http://avherald.com/h?article=4bebc970


How many airplanes has JT written off in the past 15 years? I think it’s 5 or 6 (not all of which were 737s). By comparison, WN has written off one (arguably not its fault), DL 1, AA and predecessors 3, etc. All of those carriers are significantly larger than JT.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
uutdordt
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:52 pm

Re: Lion Air Boeing 737 skids off runway in Indonesia

Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:00 am

Looking at the location on Flightradar and Google Maps, the aircraft veered of the runway at an old turning pad.
So it it slowed down quite a lot for 'heavy rain conditions according' as how Lion Air describes it.
Pilot error for choosing a wrong turning pad in due water reflection, not checking charts, reduced visibility from the side windows due to rain.
Does Lion Air have electronic flight bags? These would come in handy.
uutdordt

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