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Tack
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:56 pm

zeke wrote:
With the A321neo range they could do ANC-NRT, ANC-PEK, HNL-NRT, ANC-PVR, ANC-FLL


I spent 36 years with AS. I can tell you those routes won’t ever get even a glance. So why would they buy a jet to fly those? They’ve been clear through internal communications that the additional revenue gains of the 321N, for their operation- now and in the future, are wiped out by its higher operating costs vs the MAX. The 321N, for AS, will have higher fuel and maintenance costs. I love their 321’s. In fact it’s my favorite narrow body jet, but it’s more than they need, which should help explain how they view their flying role once they join OW.
Last edited by Tack on Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:03 pm

zeke wrote:
Polot wrote:
The A321’s only strength for AS over the max 9 is the greater seating capacity (which AS may not need on all routes) and better take off performance (which only matters on a small number of AS routes). Not it’s range.


On a day like today with a strong headwind to HNL, the A321 will carry over 5 tonnes more payload. The seating capacity difference between the way they have them is configured is only around 7 seats.

With the A321neo range they could do ANC-NRT, ANC-PEK, HNL-NRT, ANC-PVR, ANC-FLL

The big problem here is ANC is not their biggest hub. AS is based in SEA.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:15 pm

Nice to see this happen. Flew into SEA-TAC about 10 days ago and saw all of the white tails during the Renton fly-over.

Anyway, how is an A321NEO that can't hold AUX tanks capable of 4000nm? And why compare them to the long out of production 739?

AS would never be able to acquire any A321NEOS for the price that they are obtaining these 7M9 white tails for... so the fretting over the capabilities is missing the point of AS purchasing planes the perfectly fit their routes and style of flying at a very reasonable cost.

no doubt A321NEO, especially in LR/XLR guise, is the more capable plane. but it will be excess capability that comes at a far greater price than the-better-matched-for-the-AS-role 7M9. the application (as routes/business model) and the present circumstances (max grounding/covid impacts) make for a combination that just favors this acquisition.
 
Luke1994
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:27 pm

AS got a great deal on these airplanes. Good for them, and good for Boeing finding someone to take them. The more positive PR for the MAX, the better.

As for the A321neo v. 737-9 MAX debate, from both a pilot’s and passenger’s perspective give me the 321. More comfortable cockpit thanks to the side stick, wider cabin, longer range, quieter cabin, longer legs, and a better performer.

Let’s see how the 737-10 MAX compares to the Airbus when it eventually flies.
 
Luke1994
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:45 pm

par13del wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
AS got a great deal on these airplanes. Good for them, and good for Boeing finding someone to take them. The more positive PR for the MAX, the better.

As for the A321neo v. 737-9 MAX debate, from both a pilot’s and passenger’s perspective give me the 321. More comfortable cockpit thanks to the side stick, wider cabin, longer range, quieter cabin, longer legs, and a better performer.

Let’s see how the 737-10 MAX compares to the Airbus when it eventually flies.

It's a 737, it will still have a more narrow cabin, no side sticks, less comfortable cockpit, less range and a more noisy cabin than the A321....
If those are the penalties now for the MAX-9 versus the A321NEO, those will not change with the MAX-10, at least in my opinion.

True. I meant to frame it in terms of performance. My apologies.

I will say, the Sky Interior is really, really nice. IMHO it’s a nicer overall design than the Airbus by a wide margin. Love the sculpting and blue/color changing ceiling.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:57 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
With more MAX 9s, what will end up doing the Alaska (state) flying, as the 73J/7M9 is way too much plane? I could see the 73Hs, but they aren't getting any younger, and I don't see the 73Gs being in a combi configuration. The MAX 9 could be all that goes to Hawaii, while the -900ERs all stay in the mainland (even though all of the 73Hs and 73Js are ETOPS-equipped). What the MAX 9 could do for Hawaii flying is prevent any restrictions at any time of the year.

As for the AS A21Ns, they are early birds without ACT capability...not too many were built. I see a European carrier as most likely, such as TP, LS, or 8Q (all of them operate old-door configuration A21Ns with CFM LEAP engines).


The MAX 9s are now replacing Airbus aircraft and none of those are doing State of Alaska flying, so its not really an issue.
 
durangomac
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:06 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
With more MAX 9s, what will end up doing the Alaska (state) flying, as the 73J/7M9 is way too much plane? I could see the 73Hs, but they aren't getting any younger, and I don't see the 73Gs being in a combi configuration. The MAX 9 could be all that goes to Hawaii, while the -900ERs all stay in the mainland (even though all of the 73Hs and 73Js are ETOPS-equipped). What the MAX 9 could do for Hawaii flying is prevent any restrictions at any time of the year.

As for the AS A21Ns, they are early birds without ACT capability...not too many were built. I see a European carrier as most likely, such as TP, LS, or 8Q (all of them operate old-door configuration A21Ns with CFM LEAP engines).


The MAX 9s are now replacing Airbus aircraft and none of those are doing State of Alaska flying, so its not really an issue.


The MAX 9's have almost the same runway performance as the 700's so I bet we will be seeing the MAX 9's doing some state of Alaska flying. The cargo division is begging for more capacity in the state of Alaska so even if they don't fill all the seats the more capacity for cargo on the MAX 9's will be welcome.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:34 pm

Would Alaska see any benefit if the MAX 9 has the MAX 10 landing gear?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:46 pm

durangomac wrote:
The cargo division is begging for more capacity in the state of Alaska so even if they don't fill all the seats the more capacity for cargo on the MAX 9's will be welcome.


Personally, I'd love to see more 737-700 (or -800) conversions :)
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:02 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Would Alaska see any benefit if the MAX 9 has the MAX 10 landing gear?


As fans of aviation, i think many of us would like to see a MAX 9 HGW/ER version with that gear. :)
 
CX747
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:02 pm

I thought this was about orders for Boeing 737s from Alaska Airlines?
 
Tack
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:06 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
durangomac wrote:
The cargo division is begging for more capacity in the state of Alaska so even if they don't fill all the seats the more capacity for cargo on the MAX 9's will be welcome.


Personally, I'd love to see more 737-700 (or -800) conversions :)


At one point last year there were rumblings about a possible 800 freighter conversion with AS. Not sure where that stands now, or if an 800F is even certified? But, at least last year, it had some interest. Any current employees could speak more confidently on if that’s still being tossed around. As for the fleet make up? This order gives AS a ton of flexibility on the options for any model MAX. I believe they want to get the 9 into the fleet before deciding on what the MAX mix will be or if the 9 will be the jet Du Jour.
Last edited by Tack on Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:41 pm

For reference, a 737-9MAX in Alaska Airlines livery:

Image
 
flyboy80
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:46 pm

Outside the engines, tail cone, a few other small items, not much else has changed; it’s still the same long 737, with the same gear, and wing, as before- what’s driving the better take off performance being talked about here. I was surprised when United said they’d take it to OGG. I’ve been on some very long 737-900 takeoff rolls, but there are many reasons and possibilities for that. Does the 737-9 just have much higher possible takeoff thrusts to provide this performance gain?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:58 pm

Tack wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
durangomac wrote:
The cargo division is begging for more capacity in the state of Alaska so even if they don't fill all the seats the more capacity for cargo on the MAX 9's will be welcome.


Personally, I'd love to see more 737-700 (or -800) conversions :)


At one point last year there were rumblings about a possible 800 freighter conversion with AS. Not sure where that stands now, or if an 800F is even certified? But, at least last year, it had some interest. Any current employees could speak more confidently on if that’s still being tossed around. As for the fleet make up? This order gives AS a ton of flexibility on the options for any model MAX. I believe they want to get the 9 into the fleet before deciding on what the MAX mix will be or if the 9 will be the jet Du Jour.


There are dozens of -800 conversions already.
 
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Polot
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:07 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
Outside the engines, tail cone, a few other small items, not much else has changed; it’s still the same long 737, with the same gear, and wing, as before- what’s driving the better take off performance being talked about here. I was surprised when United said they’d take it to OGG. I’ve been on some very long 737-900 takeoff rolls, but there are many reasons and possibilities for that. Does the 737-9 just have much higher possible takeoff thrusts to provide this performance gain?

As I eluded to in an earlier post, for a given route with the same payload the Max 9 will be lighter than the -900ER because it needs less fuel to fly the route, resulting in better takeoff performance. That is why UA can use the Max 9 at OGG but not the -900ER.

Obviously at the same weight (eg MTOW) Max 9 takeoff performance is about equal to the -900ER, but in that case the Max 9 is either carrying more payload or flying a further distance.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:56 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Would Alaska see any benefit if the MAX 9 has the MAX 10 landing gear?


As fans of aviation, i think many of us would like to see a MAX 9 HGW/ER version with that gear. :)


This should be a no-brainer for Boeing especially if the certification of the new landing gear on MAX 10 carries over MAX 9 then no discussion is needed. MAX 9 operators such as UA & AS would greatly benefit from this. There's an airline in Texas whose attention Boeing might get with the Max 9 with the MAX10 gear in a 200 seat configuration especially if it can operate out of HOU, DAL & MDW with little to no issues.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:48 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Would Alaska see any benefit if the MAX 9 has the MAX 10 landing gear?


As fans of aviation, i think many of us would like to see a MAX 9 HGW/ER version with that gear. :)


This should be a no-brainer for Boeing especially if the certification of the new landing gear on MAX 10 carries over MAX 9 then no discussion is needed. MAX 9 operators such as UA & AS would greatly benefit from this. There's an airline in Texas whose attention Boeing might get with the Max 9 with the MAX10 gear in a 200 seat configuration especially if it can operate out of HOU, DAL & MDW with little to no issues.

The new gear slightly improves takeoff performance. I believe if, not when. I would consider DL, a large -900 operator, high on the "talk to that customer" list as well as AS, AA, UA, IAG, and SpiceJet.

I think a -9ER (-9 MAX with -10 gear) is a question of when, not if.

As would buy a few. Not any earth shattering number. Hence why I mention other airlines to justify the development.

Lightsaber
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:19 pm

Polot wrote:
I would imagine that since AS is putting the same number of seats in the Max as the -900 the amount of personal space and size of the lavs (...) will be identical between the two planes.

That's good to hear. I have heard negative stories about the Max in service with American Airlines. I guess Alaska Airlines cares more about passenger comfort than.

Polot wrote:
Cabin wise you probably won’t be able to tell a difference between the newest -900ERs and the Max 9. So if you were happy to have flown on their 73G, 738, and 739 you will be just as satisfied on the 7M9.

But travelling on the Max still isn't on my wish list. I will stick to the 737NG and other aircraft types. By the way, I also enjoyed four flights on Alaska Airlines' 737-400 combi. Nice memories.
 
durangomac
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:27 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Tack wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Personally, I'd love to see more 737-700 (or -800) conversions :)


At one point last year there were rumblings about a possible 800 freighter conversion with AS. Not sure where that stands now, or if an 800F is even certified? But, at least last year, it had some interest. Any current employees could speak more confidently on if that’s still being tossed around. As for the fleet make up? This order gives AS a ton of flexibility on the options for any model MAX. I believe they want to get the 9 into the fleet before deciding on what the MAX mix will be or if the 9 will be the jet Du Jour.


There are dozens of -800 conversions already.



That was talked about in the employee call. Appears at the moment they aren't willing to buy a used -800 frame to convert and plan to still use all current -800 frames for passenger. But there is still talk about use a -800 freighter.
 
9Patch
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:09 am

CX747 wrote:
illinicmi wrote:
Tack wrote:


100% agree. Lots of talk here about performance and fleet simplicity, which are all important, but anybody who isn't a pilot but flies a lot (like me) can't help but notice the overall upgrade from a 73anything to a 32anything. I'm an AA flyer that is fortunate to live in Phoenix, so I get mainly 32x planes. When you get a 738 from Chicago or Dallas or something, you really notice.

Of course it makes business sense for a Seattle airline to go with a plane built in Seattle, and to be all one fleet type. That doesn't mean the 73x is a better plane in the back, sadly.

That said, I'm really ready for the AA/AS partnership to ramp up.


Pilot and passenger here. If you have a favorite, great, that's what makes the world go round. No reason to hide it. BUT the 737 and 320 are both metal tubes, that are so similar, that the idea of an "upgrade" from one to another doesn't water. I've sat in ratty INTERIOR jets that can make a difference but that is an upholstery issue. I could put a brand spanking new interior on a 727, blindfold folks and they wouldn't really know.
Enjoy the AS upgrade to newer jets, newer seats and a better bottom line.

I fly Alaska a lot. I got on a plane in Phoenix last March, got settled in my seat and before take off my partner said, "Its been a long time since I flown on an A320." Up until that moment I hadn't noticed any difference.
 
9Patch
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:17 am

ASFlyer wrote:
Well stated as usual. I understand the business reason for a single fleet, it’s just disappointing from a passenger perspective and from the perspective of someone that works in the cabin. There’s a noticeable difference.

From the perspective of this passenger, there is not.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:24 am

9Patch wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
Well stated as usual. I understand the business reason for a single fleet, it’s just disappointing from a passenger perspective and from the perspective of someone that works in the cabin. There’s a noticeable difference.

From the perspective of this passenger, there is not.

Depends on the passenger. I have a rather thick torso and am miserable in a coach 737 seat when I have someone seated next to me, no matter how much I try to make myself thin and bring my elbows in. The extra inch in an airbus seat (and 175 and 220) makes a big difference. Also, the cabin of the 320 just looks and feels bigger. Not a huge deal, but noticeable, at least to me.
 
Passedv1
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:36 am

Just a few points.

1) Internal communications indicated that this week's announcement was an announcement of AS's return to a single fleet.
2) The communications I have seen did not leave any uncertainty in that the plan is for all of the A/B aircraft to be gone at some point (although unannounced) time in the future.
3) I thought it was pretty obvious that the grand-plan for inter-Alaska flying is E-175 supplemented by freighters.
4) I can only imagine that the critics of the 900ER have either never flown a 900ER...or never flown AS's version.
5) 900NG's had no problems with BUR, LIH, or DCA. I don't know what all the talk is about.
6) If you restrict a 900 by 40 seats, you have a 700 with a reasonably close performance that can go anywhere in AS's system. AS's philosophy is that it is better to take an efficiency hit at a handful of airports than to bear the expense of keeping a special sub-fleet of airplanes just to maximize performance at a handful of airports. In any case, there will be 800's in the system for the foreseeable future and they can operate at these airports without restriction.
 
9Patch
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:45 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
9Patch wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
Well stated as usual. I understand the business reason for a single fleet, it’s just disappointing from a passenger perspective and from the perspective of someone that works in the cabin. There’s a noticeable difference.

From the perspective of this passenger, there is not.

Depends on the passenger. I have a rather thick torso and am miserable in a coach 737 seat when I have someone seated next to me, no matter how much I try to make myself thin and bring my elbows in. The extra inch in an airbus seat (and 175 and 220) makes a big difference. Also, the cabin of the 320 just looks and feels bigger. Not a huge deal, but noticeable, at least to me.

The A320 I was on had that horrible space flex cabin, where they try to cram in extra seats. With only three lavatories there were long waits to pee, and one of them was in the back of the galley. Also, the look of the cabin was somewhat dated.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:33 am

9Patch wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
9Patch wrote:
From the perspective of this passenger, there is not.

Depends on the passenger. I have a rather thick torso and am miserable in a coach 737 seat when I have someone seated next to me, no matter how much I try to make myself thin and bring my elbows in. The extra inch in an airbus seat (and 175 and 220) makes a big difference. Also, the cabin of the 320 just looks and feels bigger. Not a huge deal, but noticeable, at least to me.

The A320 I was on had that horrible space flex cabin, where they try to cram in extra seats. With only three lavatories there were long waits to pee, and one of them was in the back of the galley. Also, the look of the cabin was somewhat dated.

Agree that spaceflex A320s are probably the worst in the class now. Though we will have to wait to see how the Max 8 200 compares to this.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:57 pm

How on Earth does Alaska still get away with painting "Proudly All Boeing" on these aircraft? It hasn't been true since early 2018 and won't be true again until beyond 2023, if ever.
 
chrisair
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:02 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
5) 900NG's had no problems with BUR, LIH, or DCA. I don't know what all the talk is about.


The 900s never have seen Hawaii, much less Lihue. The 900ERs only fly HNL and KOA. Everything else is 800 only.

The 900s also fuel stopped during the winter on the DCA-SEA flights back in the day.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The new gear slightly improves takeoff performance. I believe if, not when. I would consider DL, a large -900 operator, high on the "talk to that customer" list as well as AS, AA, UA, IAG, and SpiceJet.



You make a good point, I was only considering MAX 9 U.S. operators but it is way bigger than that. If the MAX 10 landing gear is retrofitable to the NGs then this may be bigger gamer than I thought, it would probably make current 739 operators worldwide happy as they would get more performance out of their 739s.
 
9Patch
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:27 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The new gear slightly improves takeoff performance. I believe if, not when. I would consider DL, a large -900 operator, high on the "talk to that customer" list as well as AS, AA, UA, IAG, and SpiceJet.



You make a good point, I was only considering MAX 9 U.S. operators but it is way bigger than that. If the MAX 10 landing gear is retrofitable to the NGs then this may be bigger gamer than I thought, it would probably make current 739 operators worldwide happy as they would get more performance out of their 739s.


I can't imagine the MAX 10 landing gear being retrofitable to the 9 NGs. The cost would exceed the benefit.
Boeing would be doing well just to get it on the new build MAX 9s.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:25 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The new gear slightly improves takeoff performance. I believe if, not when. I would consider DL, a large -900 operator, high on the "talk to that customer" list as well as AS, AA, UA, IAG, and SpiceJet.



You make a good point, I was only considering MAX 9 U.S. operators but it is way bigger than that. If the MAX 10 landing gear is retrofitable to the NGs then this may be bigger gamer than I thought, it would probably make current 739 operators worldwide happy as they would get more performance out of their 739s.


The MAX-10 gear will not be put on any 737NG aircraft. It won’t happen. There is no reason to.

It MIGHT find its way onto the MAX-9, but even that is a big maybe and doubtful to happen.
 
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msp747
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:49 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
How on Earth does Alaska still get away with painting "Proudly All Boeing" on these aircraft? It hasn't been true since early 2018 and won't be true again until beyond 2023, if ever.

Because only people on A.Net give a crap about it and get so bent out of shape over it. I think it's safe to say that a majority of passengers don't even realize that is painted on there. Do you get this bent out of shape about claims car makers make in their television ads? Or companies that advertise various dietary supplements? Do you want to take sports fans to court who claim their team is #1, but may in fact not be the most recent champion? Give it a rest already.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:13 pm

msp747 wrote:
Because only people on A.Net give a crap about it and get so bent out of shape over it. I think it's safe to say that a majority of passengers don't even realize that is painted on there. Do you get this bent out of shape about claims car makers make in their television ads? Or companies that advertise various dietary supplements? Do you want to take sports fans to court who claim their team is #1, but may in fact not be the most recent champion? Give it a rest already.


I've been car shopping and I'm often surprised that the German or Japanese car I'm looking at was actually built in Mexico...or the US carmaker's product was made in Canada or Mexico, not the US. In AS's case, maybe change that message on the airframe to 'Proudly built by Boeing'.
 
travaz
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:52 pm

hey did you guys hear that Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9?
 
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qf789
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:59 pm

Could we please just discuss the topic and leave the off topic comments such as seat width out of the discussion
 
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SQ22
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Re: Alaska Airlines orders more Boeing MAX 9

Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:42 am

Thread went off topic and will be locked.

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