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iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:05 am

qf789 wrote:
Welcome to 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021. Please continue to add your comments below

Link to last thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1448399


FYI, I just noticed when going back to search for some information previously linked that the above URL actually is for the 3Q 2020 thread.

The 4Q 2020 thread is here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1452437
 
mxaxai
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:37 pm

With EASA approving the MAX RTS, do we know who the first operator of the MAX within EASA jurisdiction will be?
https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-and ... ice-europe


Also, one sentence that got my attention:
Following the exit of the United Kingdom from the European Union, the UK Civil Aviation Authority is now responsible for clearing the aircraft to operate to/from and within the U.K as well as for U.K. operators.


The UK CAA approved the MAX nearly simultaneously with EASA.
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-Avi ... o-service/

I think the required changes are the same even though the press releases have different bullet points.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:48 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Also, one sentence that got my attention:
Following the exit of the United Kingdom from the European Union, the UK Civil Aviation Authority is now responsible for clearing the aircraft to operate to/from and within the U.K as well as for U.K. operators.


The UK CAA approved the MAX nearly simultaneously with EASA.
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-Avi ... o-service/

I think the required changes are the same even though the press releases have different bullet points.

Just a legal formality since the UK is no longer part of the EU. The CAA was always just going to piggyback on the EASA in this matter since most of EASA’s MAX evaluation was when the UK was under EASA jurisdiction anyways.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:14 am

Today it will be interesting to see how many non EASA countries will also follow, especially in Asia and Africa but also Russia.


Regarding the 1st operator in Europe,

Smartwings (QS) made a statement that they will start flying in February..

https://twitter.com/SmartwingsGroup/sta ... 5490233349


LOT has said that it will start pilot training very soon and perform the necessary updates to the planes. An announcement on the return to service and the restart of deliveries will come soon.

https://www.bankier.pl/wiadomosc/LOT-Wk ... 45551.html


TUI already made clear before the lifting of the ban they won't start operations this winter season. Same for Icelandair, they had announced that they would start in Spring 2021 pending certfication.

Norwegian said that the future of the MAX will be decided during their current restructuring process.

I don't see anything from Turkish Airlines yet, but they will also need local approval as Turkey is only an EASA Pan-European Partner and not a full member. I do expect that Turkey is one of the countries that will just follow the EASA, so we might hear something in the coming days.

Furthermore there aren't too many MAX operators of the MAX in Europe yet.
 
Oykie
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:27 am

Momo1435 wrote:
Norwegian said that the future of the MAX will be decided during their current restructuring process.


I know they are tied to their current planes and contract, but it would be cool if they negotiate an agreement where they streamline on 737-8MAX going forward.
 
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seahawks7757
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread [Ungrounded by FAA 18NOV2020]

Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:09 am

Revelation wrote:
Circum reports:

@Boeing's 737 Max steadily increases its operational footprint with nearly 120 flights now daily, across North and Latin America.

Ref: https://twitter.com/cirium/status/1355167094275534849



That graph is not at all accurate, it shows Air Canada having lots of flights yet they have no restarted yet.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread [Ungrounded by FAA 18NOV2020]

Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:24 pm

seahawks7757 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Circum reports:

@Boeing's 737 Max steadily increases its operational footprint with nearly 120 flights now daily, across North and Latin America.

Ref: https://twitter.com/cirium/status/1355167094275534849



That graph is not at all accurate, it shows Air Canada having lots of flights yet they have no restarted yet.



Are you sure? There are plenty of them on flightradar during the day.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread [Ungrounded by FAA 18NOV2020]

Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:29 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
Revelation wrote:



That graph is not at all accurate, it shows Air Canada having lots of flights yet they have no restarted yet.



Are you sure? There are plenty of them on flightradar during the day.

AC Max is not reentering service until tomorrow (Feb 1st). All the flying they are doing right now is just training and prep/MX flights.
 
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seahawks7757
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread [Ungrounded by FAA 18NOV2020]

Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:15 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
Revelation wrote:



That graph is not at all accurate, it shows Air Canada having lots of flights yet they have no restarted yet.



Are you sure? There are plenty of them on flightradar during the day.


Not in revenue service they aren’t. Just test flights is all.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:06 pm

I've been reading a few of the articles with "the 737 was returned to service too soon" angles to keep apprised of any further concerns, or at least public sentiments. I was surprised to see one this week from the BBC citing Ed Pierson, a former 737 production manager, once again:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55751150

I assume he will continue to press this case, so it seemed worthwhile to read his latest report and discuss it.

From a position of having observed concerns on the production line under rate pressure, he is arguing there are still unresolved issues. I would say one of his biggest concerns was out-of-sequence work and rework to address QA findings. Many of us remember the accumulation at the time of 737's being parked at Boeing Field to complete these tasks before delivery, as well as delays receiving engines. I seem to recall at one point, for example, Boeing was making ferry flights to free up space in Renton, then removing the engines to truck back to Renton for another aircraft.

He seems to mainly focus on why the AoA sensors failed - the bird strike on the Ethiopian flight has not been concretely proven. The miscalibrated AoA sensor was installed on the Lionair flight due to issues with the factory-installed sensor. He cites interesting results from inspections of the removed sensor that was found to have had a portion wire inadvertently epoxied against materials with differing coefficients of thermal expansion, leading to thermal cycling failure.

I actually find the details he highlighted from the investigations and from his own experience in the factory quite interesting. I agree with him that if Collins Aerospace has quality control problems with their AoA sensors, those should be addressed. And it was clear even before the crashes that Boeing needed to resolve the difficulties in their production system - indeed, that was one of the reasons Boeing cited for slowing and then shutting down production after the grounding even though they believed deliveries would resume soon.

However, from there goes makes his own conclusions in contradiction with the exhaustive investigations and recertification efforts:

The design of the 737 MAX, MCAS software and the failure to provide vital information and training to pilots did not trigger these accidents.


Overall, I think the most significant issue with his arguments for denying the MAX approval to return to service is an assumption on his part that a failed AoA sensor is still a major hazard. It is quite clear that all of the regulatory bodies recognize that AoA sensors are an exposed part that has to be assumed at risk of failure, so a thorough safety assessment had to be done for that scenario, and the resulting effects mitigated to a low level of remaining risk.

I hope his comments helps ensure those remaining factors get addressed in the near term, or even better, that they are being addressed independent of his efforts, but since the recertification requirements addressed the effects of his concerns, I disagree with his conclusion that the grounding was lifted too soon.
 
747-600X
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737-MAX - Google Maps - Moses Lake

Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:21 am

Google Maps' aerial photography has now been updated to show [what I count to be] 226 737-MAX aircraft in storage at the Moses Lake Grant County Airport. The imagery also shows other aircraft (including at least 13 non-MAX 737s).

Note - if you do not see the aircraft, turn off the "Globe" setting in the hidden panel on the left, reverting to flat/2D imagery.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/47%C2%B012'16.7%22N+119%C2%B018'59.9%22W
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:36 am

Interesting article on Boeing culture at the top during 737 Max crisis about Boeing upper management actions that happened brought out by Boeing shareholder lawsuit against management in today’s Wall Street Journal behind paywall at:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-boa ... _lead_pos4
It will be interesting to see what affect this has on DOJ agreement with Boeing last month and if any legal actions are launched against certain individuals as a result. It clearly illustrates the culture that was present by the former and current Boeing CEOs as far as I can tell.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:13 am

CanukinUSA wrote:
Interesting article on Boeing culture at the top during 737 Max crisis about Boeing upper management actions that happened brought out by Boeing shareholder lawsuit against management in today’s Wall Street Journal behind paywall at:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-boa ... _lead_pos4
It will be interesting to see what affect this has on DOJ agreement with Boeing last month and if any legal actions are launched against certain individuals as a result. It clearly illustrates the culture that was present by the former and current Boeing CEOs as far as I can tell.

It has no effect on the DOJ agreement. DOJ did their investigation, reached a settlement/agreement, and closed their criminal case. Other parties are free to sue Boeing in civil court as they see fit.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:24 am

That agreement was based on nothing new coming out. This sounds to me that it is likely something new appearing that was not out in the open during the agreement discussions that were happening between DOJ and Boeing. It was obtained using the Freedom of information act by WSJ through the courts in Delaware to obtain previously redacted information that is now public. There is also the option of actions against individuals also left open as far as I can tell reading the agreement.
 
max999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:25 am

Polot wrote:
CanukinUSA wrote:
Interesting article on Boeing culture at the top during 737 Max crisis about Boeing upper management actions that happened brought out by Boeing shareholder lawsuit against management in today’s Wall Street Journal behind paywall at:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-boa ... _lead_pos4
It will be interesting to see what affect this has on DOJ agreement with Boeing last month and if any legal actions are launched against certain individuals as a result. It clearly illustrates the culture that was present by the former and current Boeing CEOs as far as I can tell.

It has no effect on the DOJ agreement. DOJ did their investigation, reached a settlement/agreement, and closed their criminal case. Other parties are free to sue Boeing in civil court as they see fit.


Here are some interesting quotes from the article. The article shows the CEO and board members show they were very concerned about PR and cash flow. It appears those were bigger priorities than safety.

About two weeks after the initial crash in late 2018, Mr. Muilenburg devised “a public relations, investor relations and lobbying campaign," according to the lawsuit, partly designed to push back against the bad publicity and criticism by U.S. airline-pilot groups attacking Boeing’s disclosures regarding the jet’s design. He discussed the plan with then-lead director Kenneth Duberstein and board member David Calhoun, now Boeing’s CEO, according to internal emails cited in the suit.

Around the same time, Boeing was publicly pointing to pilot and maintenance errors as important factors in the fatal plunge of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia, even as it was privately beginning work on a fix to an automated flight-control system implicated in that crash. The system, called MCAS, later also led to a second MAX crash in early 2019 in Ethiopia.


In discussing an emergency safety bulletin the FAA issued after the Lion Air crash, the suit said that Mr. Muilenburg was more concerned with potential cash-flow disruptions than safety matters. “We need to be careful" that the FAA’s interest in the contents of flight manuals, he wrote to Greg Smith, the company’s chief financial officer, “doesn’t turn into a compliance item that restricts near-term deliveries."

The risk-management update to the board after the first crash didn’t include oversight of airplane safety, according to the suit, nor did safety issues surface as part of a December 2018 meeting of the board’s audit committee.

The committee—then headed by director Larry Kellner, a former airline executive who is now Boeing’s chairman—discussed a plan to further ramp up MAX production and supplier disruptions that affected aircraft deliveries, according to meeting materials cited by the suit.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:51 am

CanukinUSA wrote:
That agreement was based on nothing new coming out. This sounds to me that it is likely something new appearing that was not out in the open during the agreement discussions that were happening between DOJ and Boeing. It was obtained using the Freedom of information act by WSJ through the courts in Delaware to obtain previously redacted information that is now public. There is also the option of actions against individuals also left open as far as I can tell reading the agreement.

The fact that the FOIA, and act design to get access to information/documents from the US Federal government, was used to acquire this information should tell you that this is not new info to the government and DOJ. They had it in their hands. You can’t use the FOIA against a private company.


Some of this information is crass and paints Boeing in a bad light, but it is not necessarily solid evidence of criminal actions that the DOJ can use against them. Companies are free to discuss PR strategies or cash flow. The burden of proof of civil cases like a shareholders lawsuit is much lower.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:03 am

It was not from the Federal Government it was from the courts in the State of Delaware.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:44 am

CanukinUSA wrote:
It was not from the Federal Government it was from the courts in the State of Delaware.

Ok I finally was able to read the article. The plaintiffs (shareholders) use Delaware (where Boeing is incorporated) law to access internal Boeing documents, and filed a lawsuit based on them, in which the court redacted the information in the internal emails which is pretty standard. The WSJ filed a request to see the unredacted documents in the lawsuit which was granted. The DOJ investigators had access to these documents (do you seriously think Delaware has the power to force Boeing to hand over internal documents but the Federal government does not?) . This isn’t new bombshell information to investigators, I’m sure the DOJ read these internal emails too.

As I said before not all of this information is really useful for the DOJ and their case. The aims of the DOJ’s probe and the shareholders are not necessarily the same. The DOJ is more concerned about gross criminal action, the shareholders are more concerned about Boeing leadership failing to properly lead the company and maintain company value.
 
WNCrew
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:09 pm

Has the MAX 10 been in the air yet? I saw taxi test video, but has it flown at all?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:51 pm

WNCrew wrote:
Has the MAX 10 been in the air yet? I saw taxi test video, but has it flown at all?

No.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:07 pm

A lot of Maxes in the air right now, with UA restarting their Max service and AA expanding their Max operation on flights to South America and to PHX today.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:29 pm

Interesting set of tweets from Peter Lemme ( https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 4769389569 ) highlighting parts of the recent DoT Inspector General's report found at https://t.co/uKkuvQZ3fk?amp=1

Seems FAA is regretful regarding the exemptions they granted Boeing on the MAX, both in general, and specifically with regard to the cockpit alerting system:

Image

Clearly things have been changed for the "aircraft currently undergoing certification", presumably 777X. Unfortunately this seems to getting done via the initiative of one FAA manager rather than updating the exemption criteria in the regulations.

Also FAA was regretful on what was and what was not a "required certification deliverable".

Image

I remember a Seattle Times piece quoting a Boeing insider as saying "We only need to show our answer, we don't need to show our work" when asked about their safety analysis. It seems that will now be changed. This report is finally clarifying one aspect of the tragedy that I was puzzled about.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:16 pm

DoT Inspector General's report on FAA's certification of MAX is out.

Coverage by Seattle Times: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... x-failures

Some selected quotes:

The failures were not just within the FAA. The report also found that the internal Boeing organization that plays the paramount role in certifying new aircraft is not “adequately independent.”

The report cites documented cases of pressure from Boeing management to fast track a finding of compliance with regulations “without sufficient time to perform a review.”

“This pressure could potentially impact aircraft safety and ultimately the flying public,” the report states.

Ok, since we have documented evidence, what are the repercussions for those managers?

In its response to the report, the FAA said it is forming a team including representatives of foreign civil aviation authorities to evaluate how new versions of existing jets are certified and to ensure “a consistent worldwide approach to safety and the similar evaluation and treatment of design changes.”

Seems evasive to me.

Why not say they are correcting all the issues independently, rather than just trying to find some common ground with other regulators?

Why not try to raise the bar?

It also is establishing an office tasked with ensuring that supervisors at Boeing and other manufacturers apply no “undue pressure” to engineers who work as FAA representatives.

The horse is out of the barn, now you close the gate...

What is the process to follow if you are an engineer and feel "undue pressure" from a "supervisor"?

How do you invoke it without career damaging blow back?

How do they determine what "undue pressure" is, versus "due pressure"?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
DoT Inspector General's report on FAA's certification of MAX is out.

In its response to the report, the FAA said it is forming a team including representatives of foreign civil aviation authorities to evaluate how new versions of existing jets are certified and to ensure “a consistent worldwide approach to safety and the similar evaluation and treatment of design changes.”

Seems evasive to me.

Why not say they are correcting all the issues independently, rather than just trying to find some common ground with other regulators?

Why not try to raise the bar?


Just spit-balling here, but with other regulatory agencies effectively having put the FAA "on probation" and conducting their own concurrent certifications of the 777X and possibly future Boeing commercial aircraft, the FAA may feel that those agencies might not be appreciative - or supportive - of the FAA "going it alone" even if it is to increase safety.

And honestly, if the goal is to increase safety, shouldn't as many agencies as possible be brought in? And perhaps the ICAO be tasked to make this "common ground" an international standard?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:19 pm

Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
DoT Inspector General's report on FAA's certification of MAX is out.

In its response to the report, the FAA said it is forming a team including representatives of foreign civil aviation authorities to evaluate how new versions of existing jets are certified and to ensure “a consistent worldwide approach to safety and the similar evaluation and treatment of design changes.”

Seems evasive to me.

Why not say they are correcting all the issues independently, rather than just trying to find some common ground with other regulators?

Why not try to raise the bar?

Just spit-balling here, but with other regulatory agencies effectively having put the FAA "on probation" and conducting their own concurrent certifications of the 777X and possibly future Boeing commercial aircraft, the FAA may feel that those agencies might not be appreciative - or supportive - of the FAA "going it alone" even if it is to increase safety.

And honestly, if the goal is to increase safety, shouldn't as many agencies as possible be brought in? And perhaps the ICAO be tasked to make this "common ground" an international standard?

Nothing wrong with making it open to international regulators, but the target is "consistent worldwide approach to safety" which seems to be a wishy washy, least common denominator goal. Why not "updated and improved worldwide approach to safety"?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:23 am

https://twitter.com/journodannyaero/sta ... 24097?s=21

If you’re looking for a MAX update for IAG.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:09 pm

From the Airlines that have resumed service, have there been any reports of a significant percentage of passengers opting to change flights when they find out theirs is on a MAX?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:39 pm

Did the airlines update their software to track and summarize those numbers into a readable report?
We know they allow cancellations and book reasons, the question is did they update to specifically track MAX cancellations, software folks needed work during the grounding as well.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:56 pm

planecane wrote:
From the Airlines that have resumed service, have there been any reports of a significant percentage of passengers opting to change flights when they find out theirs is on a MAX?

Every report we’ve heard of says passengers are not avoiding the max
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:22 pm

par13del wrote:
Did the airlines update their software to track and summarize those numbers into a readable report?
We know they allow cancellations and book reasons, the question is did they update to specifically track MAX cancellations, software folks needed work during the grounding as well.

I’m sure they have the data. If there was any particular large deviation from the Max would probably would have heard about it by now. Some like AA have been operating the plane for 2 months now.

They really don’t even need reason to track btw, they can just compare the cancellation/rebook rates on 737max operated flights versus other planes including historical data they have on the route (although using historical data now is harder as covid, and introduction of new restrictions and whatnot, can heavily skew data).
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread [Ungrounded by FAA 18NOV2020]

Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:33 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like China is gonna milk this out https://www.scmp.com/economy/global-eco ... til-safety


I predict the Chinese will lift their ban on their Max's as soon as the FAA signs off on the C919 and certifies it for service.
 
PennPal
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:43 pm

Is there any data that shows how many travelers have opted to change their flights to other aircraft in order to avoid flying the MAX??
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread [Ungrounded by FAA 18NOV2020]

Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:01 pm

konrad wrote:
First LOT 737 MAX 8 back in service today: SP-LVD https://www.flightradar24.com/LOT483
Another two were brought out of storage and are being prepared for flight operations. Two more are stored at LUZ.
Eight more, undelivered, stored at MWH, SKF and VCV.


ALAFCO has cancelled the order.
 
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janders
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, Q1 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:58 pm

As a reference, this thread is now locked and further 737MAX discussions can be continue in the 737MAX Return to Service discussion

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1455901

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