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vfw614
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 2:46 pm

For those interested, I have done some analysis regarding the 787-8 orderbook (39 unfilled orders of which 10 have already been produced or are currently in production):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461273#p22808433
 
BobLoblah
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:59 pm

Does anyone know which frame was delivered to Atlantis Aviation Corporation in June 2021? I'm guessing either line# 1091 or Ln 1095, both leased to ANA, but don't have much to support that.
 
WestWing
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:17 am

BobLoblah wrote:
Does anyone know which frame was delivered to Atlantis Aviation Corporation in June 2021?

This is likely the last Everett-built 787, LN 1095, MSN 66524 current registration N883BA.

Both MSN 66523 and 66524 are a bit of a mystery to me because the FAA database still shows them with active US registrations and owned by Boeing. Did Boeing (e.g., Boeing Capital) buy these frames back from Atlantis immediately after Boeing Commercial Airplanes recorded the legal delivery of the frames to Atlantis?
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Nnaeto87
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:40 pm

Looks like 787 deliveries have resumed. TK6836 now heading from Everett to Istanbul.

TC-LLP
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:06 am



First HA 789 is out in CHS
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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ghost77
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:21 pm

Apparently, I've been told, Aeromexico is taking delivery of XA-SSS by the of June. XA-RRR until late november.

g77
 
B787register
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:26 pm

Which ate the five Norwegian 787s that havent been taken up
David C
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:31 am

Yet another defect on 787 production, what in the world is going on at Boeing. Such a sad state this company is in, just horrific management. My goodness.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fac ... 1626142306
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:53 am

B787register wrote:
Which are the five Norwegian 787s that havent been taken up


Line 870 ex-SE-RXY*
Line 955 ex G-CLJN
Line 971 ex SE-RXA
Line 983 ex SE-RXB
Line 1011 ex SE-RXC

All stored at VCV, except SE-RXY is stored at SNN. *SE-RXY was delivered on 31st July 2019, but never enter service. It was stored at Glasgow until March 2021, and flown to SNN for further storage.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:40 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Yet another defect on 787 production, what in the world is going on at Boeing. Such a sad state this company is in, just horrific management. My goodness.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fac ... 1626142306

When Boeing decides to be serious they should let us know. Because right now they’re an absolute joke
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:52 am

Looks like it could be another issue with shims, this time in Section 41 (the nose).
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:38 am

Opus99 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Yet another defect on 787 production, what in the world is going on at Boeing. Such a sad state this company is in, just horrific management. My goodness.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fac ... 1626142306

When Boeing decides to be serious they should let us know. Because right now they’re an absolute joke


Honestly feels like there is some sort of internal sabotage ongoing. Not saying this is happening but with how ridiculous they have been as of late it seems like they literally cannot do anything. Every single program except the 767F and legacy 777s are having issues. It's just not acceptable.
 
Oykie
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:11 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Yet another defect on 787 production, what in the world is going on at Boeing. Such a sad state this company is in, just horrific management. My goodness.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fac ... 1626142306

When Boeing decides to be serious they should let us know. Because right now they’re an absolute joke


Honestly feels like there is some sort of internal sabotage ongoing. Not saying this is happening but with how ridiculous they have been as of late it seems like they literally cannot do anything. Every single program except the 767F and legacy 777s are having issues. It's just not acceptable.


I’ve been thinking the same. That maybe there is some form of sabotage. In the 767 tanker they found foreign object debris after delivery and I thought that this must clearly be intentional and someone sabotaging. This is an article about the fod in the tanker jets. It’s easy to think that this is intentional.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... facturing/
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Eiszeit
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:17 am

Clearly it's sabotage, by HQ to press every last penny from that now shrivelling lemon BA.
 
TC957
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:50 am

The latest 77F D-AALT had issues the other day too - returned to base with a suspected fuel leak.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:57 pm

The world wants to know ....... can Boeing build planes?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:20 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
Clearly it's sabotage, by HQ to press every last penny from that now shrivelling lemon BA.


The union in Everett was none too pleased when news broke of 787 production getting moved to Charleston.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit , but, the other culprit could be the "brain drain" effect of the most experience mechanics
and engineers retired and/or furloughed during the pandemic. A lot of industries are having the same problem these days.
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:51 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
Clearly it's sabotage, by HQ to press every last penny from that now shrivelling lemon BA.


The union in Everett was none too pleased when news broke of 787 production getting moved to Charleston.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit , but, the other culprit could be the "brain drain" effect of the most experience mechanics
and engineers retired and/or furloughed during the pandemic. A lot of industries are having the same problem these days.

Blaming the pandemic…… IMHO Boeing had issues way before the pandemic…
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:15 pm

Can anyone tell me what British Airways is still to receive in terms of its overall 787 order ?
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:30 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The world wants to know ....... can Boeing build planes?


Apparently they can't currently build them as well as the FAA wants them to. Or maybe the FAA has decided that Boeing now needs to build them better than what the FAA used to want. One or the other.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
jumpjets
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:36 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me what British Airways is still to receive in terms of its overall 787 order ?


As far as I can tell they have taken delivery off all 788s (12)and 789s (18) that they have on order and have 10 remaining 787-10s to be delivered out of a total original order of 12.

I don't know what the situation is as regards any options that BA might have.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:37 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me what British Airways is still to receive in terms of its overall 787 order ?

10 787-10s
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:36 pm

Opus99 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me what British Airways is still to receive in terms of its overall 787 order ?

10 787-10s


Believe one or two of the ten 781s has been put in storage and a few more are scheduled for delivery later in the year, destined for the same direction-unless someone has some updated info?
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:45 pm

Such a massive fall for this company. What a pity.

Any word on when we ll see deliveries resume?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:02 pm

More information this morning from The Seattle Times.

Boeing has identified larger than acceptable gaps in the forward pressure bulkhead of Section 41 (the most forward fuselage section). Located just forward of the instrument panel, it seals the cockpit and cabin from the outside environment.

While only thousandths of an inch wide, and not considered a "Safety of Flight" issue, they are nonetheless beyond the tolerances demanded in the design specification and therefore Boeing must perform an inspection of all undelivered and in-production frames (numbering around 100). Boeing and the FAA are working to determine if in-service frames will need to be checked ahead of their next scheduled maintenance period.

In response to the checks requiring 787 production staff being allocated to this issue and citing lack of demand, Boeing will be reducing the 787 production rate below the current five frames to an unspecified level for an unspecified time.

As to when 787 deliveries can resume, there is no date. The FAA has yet to sign off on Boeing's sampling protocol for 787 QA checks and until they do, Boeing is not allowed to deliver any frames produced since Fall 2020 (the most recent TK airframe predated this cutoff so it was allowed to be delivered).
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:15 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Such a massive fall for this company. What a pity.

Any word on when we ll see deliveries resume?

New delivery date was not made known. I believe this is the third halt in delivery in recent months. According to Reuters, Boeing is now forecasting to deliver fewer than half of the lingering 100 or so B787 in its inventory this year instead of the "vast majority" it had expected. Boeing did not disclose the new production rate but said it will temporarily shift below the current rate of five jets per month.

Those continuous forensic inspections and costly repairs to address quality flaws in the aircraft will certainly cost Boeing some big $$.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/boeing- ... flaws.html

Succinct Points:
> Will deliver fewer than half of the 100 Dreamliners it has already produced but has not yet delivered to customers.
> Boeing halted deliveries of the wide-body planes in May for the second time in less than a year as the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed the manufacturer’s method for evaluating the aircraft.
> Last year, Boeing first disclosed incorrect spacing in some parts of certain 787 aircraft, including the fuselage, halting deliveries for five months.
> Latest issue was related to that and was detected “near the nose” of certain 787 Dreamliners that Boeing has manufactured but not delivered.
> Further delivery delays would mean more financial strain for Boeing. The company is trying to regain its footing in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic and two fatal crashes that grounded its best-selling 737 Max .
> Boeing will reassign staff on the production line to inspect planes and make any necessary repairs.
> “Based on data, the FAA will determine whether similar modifications should be made on 787s already in commercial service,” the FAA said.
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:55 pm

looks like we have found the nemesis of composite fuselages.. in aluminum fuselages all joins were slathered in anti corrosive sealants that eliminated the thousandth of an inch gaps and water corrosion paths. in composites, since corrosion is not an issue , the use of gap reducing sealants is reduced or eliminated. Does Boeing need to revisit sealants in composite assembly. I don't think they will find the same issues in wing structures as fuel tightness requires sealants.

so are the FAA and Boeing applying metal fuselage gap criteria in composite fuselages erroneously? It appears the FAA isn't really overly concerned about the new gap issue, so s Boeing over reacting.

Back in the early 727/737 days if the tolerances were to tight and there was no critical failure path, engineering just changed the tolerance.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:05 pm

Assuming this gap issue with the pressure dome is present on in-service 787s, it does not appear to be adversely affecting the pressurization of the cockpit and cabin so it might be either they use some type of sealant to seal the gaps or they adjust the tolerances to allow for this level of gap in this structural component as kanban noted was done for the 727 and 737 programs.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:08 pm

Scares me to read about potential issues with pressure bulkheads...if you're old enough you likely remember the JAL incident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:53 pm

an addendum to the earlier post.

are we dealing with a "just because" we can design to a millionth of an inch, should we make that a manufacturing /inspection criteria scenario?

hiflyeras: that was a botched repair not a manufacturing/engineering design
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:23 pm

kanban wrote:

hiflyeras: that was a botched repair not a manufacturing/engineering design


End result...everyone died due to a failure of the bulkhead. Design, maintenance...it still was horrific.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:46 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me what British Airways is still to receive in terms of its overall 787 order ?


Thanks to all who replied. :thumbsup:
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:16 pm

Opus99 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Yet another defect on 787 production, what in the world is going on at Boeing. Such a sad state this company is in, just horrific management. My goodness.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fac ... 1626142306

When Boeing decides to be serious they should let us know. Because right now they’re an absolute joke


It appears to me Boeing is finally being as serious as they should have been all along. They are repeatedly stopping deliveries as issues come up that don't seem to be new. Does anybody here really believe Boeing would have done that before the MAX crashes?

Perhaps I'm mistaken and this is not Boeing re-examining their production system and finding existing problems to be fixed, but new blunders being continuously made.

Otherwise, I think this uncalled for. There is not much worse for fostering a culture of speaking up and fixing problems than being critical of those who do so. I'm facing this in my own job, and I can't really convey how demoralizing it is when you bring up mistakes so you can begin work on fixing them, for the response to be criticism. This goes doubly so in the cases where it's a problem I inherited, rather than my own mistake. Given the 787 has been in service for a decade now, I assume a lot of the people working on these problems likewise were not the ones who made the original mistakes.

Sure, we're just a forum and our voices don't directly matter, but I know plenty of people who work for Boeing, and I know what they read in the news and hear in discussion about it does affect their morale.

The Seattle Times indicates this is not even identified as a safety-of-flight issue (I read between the lines as that meaning they haven't identified a reason to expect failure, but they're still evaluating all scenarios). Rather, it sounds like overly tight tolerances were specified (compared to both what is necessary and what is reasonably achievable), which is more common than people without engineering experience might realize. In my own work, I often err on the side of tighter tolerances when it makes the analysis easier, but I've never had to balance out the competing challenges of analyzing a structure as complex as an aircraft fuselage against assembling a structure as complex as an aircraft fuselage. It's even more difficult when it is not only difficult to analyze and assemble, but even to inspect.

hiflyeras wrote:
Scares me to read about potential issues with pressure bulkheads...if you're old enough you likely remember the JAL incident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123


Structural failures anywhere on an aircraft in flight are a scary idea. It's not unique to pressure bulkheads. In either case (assembly shimming or repair), the engineered design needs to be followed, although intuitively, I would expect negating the effectiveness of half of the fasteners in the JAL 123 repair to be far more significant than changing the alignment of structures relatively to each other by about the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there is a reason for the design not to be followed, the alternative needs to be analyzed. Unfortunately, for JAL 123 that didn't happen until after the crash, and they found very good agreement between what the analysis predicted and what happened (10,000 cycles predicted, 12,000 actually occurred). Had the alternative idea been fed back to engineering and a proper analysis done, the accident would likely have been prevented.

Interestingly, that improper repair occurred in 1978, the same year the Hyatt Regency Kansas City Hotel lobby balconies were constructed differently from what the engineer specified, due to difficulty assembling them in the manner specified. That mistake also killed a large number of people. Both JAL 123 and the Hyatt Regency balcony collapse are now-famous case studies on this topic. I didn't realize until now the fatal mistakes were being made at basically the same time.
 
astuteman
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:43 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
The Seattle Times indicates this is not even identified as a safety-of-flight issue (I read between the lines as that meaning they haven't identified a reason to expect failure, but they're still evaluating all scenarios). Rather, it sounds like overly tight tolerances were specified (compared to both what is necessary and what is reasonably achievable), which is more common than people without engineering experience might realize. In my own work, I often err on the side of tighter tolerances when it makes the analysis easier, but I've never had to balance out the competing challenges of analyzing a structure as complex as an aircraft fuselage against assembling a structure as complex as an aircraft fuselage. It's even more difficult when it is not only difficult to analyze and assemble, but even to inspect.


Firstly can I say I sympathise with you over the issue of the specification of tolerances in Engineering. The advent of computers into Engineering seems to have had two effects. Firstly, young Engineers seem to convince themselves that the computer means that anything is achievable in reality because it is achievable on the computer. Secondly, the ability to engineer without having to physically visit the product or the people that produce it seems to have made them completely ignorant of the relationship between process capability and the delivery of critical product features through the design/build/in service lifecycle. We suffer from this all the time.

The issue here I think is that, as you say, the 787 has been around a long time, with over 1000 successfully delivered, and the bulk of these have not experienced this issue. But this problem has happened on the 787 before, and been fixed - a long time ago.
So this is not a process capability issue - it is a process control issue, irrespective of whether the tolerances are over-specified or not.
A process that has been successfully delivering this jointing process now isn't. That is the issue here, in my opinion.

I don't build planes for a living, but our parent organisation does, and we benchmark with them on the metrology of critical features through the lifecycle regularly (especially around trhe education of engineers :) ). I'd suggest that whilst not seeming to be a "safety of flight" issue, there are undoubtedly critical product performance requirements that could affect the tolerances required of such a join, e.g. the delivery of maximum aerodynamic efficiency, or the delivery of decades of maintenance free service of that hull join.

An out-of-control process that affects product performance is not something to sweep under the carpet IMO

Rgds
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:03 pm

It sounds to me as if this is a positive development post the MAX fiasco. Boeing appears to be taking every precaution to insure they are building safe aircraft. They are obviously reporting the problems to the FAA and appear to be working closely with the regulators. Those that have a negative agenda will use it as fodder, that is understood. I'd rather the problems get fixed.
 
B787register
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:26 pm

To be honest if Boeing lost a 787 due this issue or other known "small" issues it would surely spell the end of the company, especially in the wake of the MAX crashes.
I personally feel that the more checks they do the better. This has come at a great time for Beoing as airlines are running very much reduced schedules with 787s as most are running as "Preighters" (love a good made up word dont you?).
I think before the 737 losses, aka the battety issues Boeing may have become somewhat complacent, which ultimately lead to the tragic losses of the 737-8s. What they simply cannot afford is to have a manafacturering defect be the cause of the first airframe loss of the flagship aircraft for the company.
David C
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:00 am

Look if there really was an issue there would be an AD and mandatory inspection.. there isn't.. it's gap caused by over zealous engineers exceeding the manufacturing /assembly capabilities. the prospective failure (pressure leak minor) requires the exact alignment of 17 factors including the moon phase, the mating cycle of the Giant Panda, and someone in seat 31c farting. having seen the tolerances allowed in sheet metal aircraft design and assembly, all this noise is just idle mind nervous handwringing.

Why Is Boeing even going public about this, probably to forestall marginal employees looking for a fast buck as a whistle blower claiming Boeing was hiding design flaws. And there are plenty of Youtube idiots that will believe them and panic.
 
airsmiles
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:44 am

kanban wrote:
Look if there really was an issue there would be an AD and mandatory inspection.. there isn't.. it's gap caused by over zealous engineers exceeding the manufacturing /assembly capabilities. the prospective failure (pressure leak minor) requires the exact alignment of 17 factors including the moon phase, the mating cycle of the Giant Panda, and someone in seat 31c farting. having seen the tolerances allowed in sheet metal aircraft design and assembly, all this noise is just idle mind nervous handwringing.

Why Is Boeing even going public about this, probably to forestall marginal employees looking for a fast buck as a whistle blower claiming Boeing was hiding design flaws. And there are plenty of Youtube idiots that will believe them and panic.


I’m confused by this whole issue. I see what you’re saying by the lack of AD, but on the other hand Boeing is willing passing on huge cash receipts by delaying deliveries for many months. It doesn’t sound like that minor a problem for them to do that.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:35 pm

airsmiles wrote:
kanban wrote:
Look if there really was an issue there would be an AD and mandatory inspection.. there isn't.. it's gap caused by over zealous engineers exceeding the manufacturing /assembly capabilities. the prospective failure (pressure leak minor) requires the exact alignment of 17 factors including the moon phase, the mating cycle of the Giant Panda, and someone in seat 31c farting. having seen the tolerances allowed in sheet metal aircraft design and assembly, all this noise is just idle mind nervous handwringing.

Why Is Boeing even going public about this, probably to forestall marginal employees looking for a fast buck as a whistle blower claiming Boeing was hiding design flaws. And there are plenty of Youtube idiots that will believe them and panic.


I’m confused by this whole issue. I see what you’re saying by the lack of AD, but on the other hand Boeing is willing passing on huge cash receipts by delaying deliveries for many months. It doesn’t sound like that minor a problem for them to do that.


Does anyone remember that old EOS Rebel advertisement, with the young Andre Agassi sporting those wild wigs? The motto was: "Image is everything". Feels a little bit the same here, if I understand well. Boeing could not let go a discrepancy between its self-defined tolerances and the real world, or at least not now, not after all the recent messes…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:59 pm

Warning: totally speculative post follows!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... zon-spacex has an interesting article saying that Boeing is losing engineering talent to SpaceX (more adventure/glory) and Amazon (more cash). It says that both the executive formerly in charge of Boeing's operations at CHS and the former 787 Chief Engineer are now working for Amazon on their drone program, and that roughly 18% of the engineers and technical workers in the SEA area have left the company since the beginning of last year.

So, in the face of information that is far from complete, could all this tolerance fidgeting be due to a new rank of line engineers and managers having different comfort levels than the ones that went before them? Or perhaps it is something the previous regime kept a lid on, and now that they are gone perhaps the new regime wants to get past this issue while they have someone else to blame? Or is this correlation rather than causation? Given we still don't really know how MCAS happened, I guess we may never know, but that's one cost of Boeing using fall guys to explain away MCAS: when new issues arise people such as myself begin to speculate.
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:09 pm

airsmiles wrote:
I’m confused by this whole issue. I see what (kanban is) saying by the lack of AD, but on the other hand Boeing is willing passing on huge cash receipts by delaying deliveries for many months. It doesn’t sound like that minor a problem for them to do that.


The fact that the structure is out of tolerance means the planes cannot receive the paperwork from the FAA necessary for them to be delivered. So they either need to bring the frames into tolerance or work with the FAA to determine if the tolerances can be loosened with no impact to safety (short-term or long-term).

The FAA is also scrutinizing tolerances on the aft structure of the 787 and has yet to sign off on Boeing's proposed updated inspection protocols for this and will not release the paperwork necessary to deliver frames affected by this issue until they do.

So now that there is a tolerance issue on the fore structure, the FAA will likely want to roll that in, as well (and either link them together to have both in place before they authorize the resumption of deliveries or approve each individually and allow the resumption of deliveries for frames that are approved.
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:52 pm

Stitch wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
I’m confused by this whole issue. I see what (kanban is) saying by the lack of AD, but on the other hand Boeing is willing passing on huge cash receipts by delaying deliveries for many months. It doesn’t sound like that minor a problem for them to do that.


The fact that the structure is out of tolerance means the planes cannot receive the paperwork from the FAA necessary for them to be delivered. So they either need to bring the frames into tolerance or work with the FAA to determine if the tolerances can be loosened with no impact to safety (short-term or long-term).

The FAA is also scrutinizing tolerances on the aft structure of the 787 and has yet to sign off on Boeing's proposed updated inspection protocols for this and will not release the paperwork necessary to deliver frames affected by this issue until they do.

So now that there is a tolerance issue on the fore structure, the FAA will likely want to roll that in, as well (and either link them together to have both in place before they authorize the resumption of deliveries or approve each individually and allow the resumption of deliveries for frames that are approved.


Having been involved in FAA process audits where the FAA compares the Procedures, Processes, and Specifications used to build and define the aircraft to the actual result. There was always a battle between Engineering, Manufacturing and QA as to what was achievable. Engineering would specify tolerances of 0.0001 inches, while Tooling and Manufacturing insisted they were not obtainable partially due to the accumulation of tolerances during manufacture and assembly. QA would hold tight to "the drawing says" and reject everything. The FAA looks at the assembly and the drawing or process specification and says they don't agree.. so it becomes an Engineering - Manufacturing pissing contest. This appears to be the hold up... getting the documentation to agree with the manufacturing capabilities.

An example was the brushed anodized finish on Eastern's 757 exterior window reveals.. QA would inspect using a high power magnifying glass and reject everything because of pattern irregularities exceeding the Engineering criteria. On a wild hair, we got the Eastern rep., QA, Engineering and Manufacturing to sit down to solve the crisis. The result was Eastern saying "if the the finish looks uniform from the airport boarding area they were happy."... Engineering capitulated and revised the specifications and production moved on. Another example of just because we can design to asinine tolerances, doesn't mean we should if they can not be obtained, or they serve no purpose.
 
ben7x
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:58 am

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:00 pm

Do we know when deliveries will start again? I mean, what’s the actual problem? Is it that much of a problem to repair the already build aircraft? Or is it not yet certified?
There haven’t been noteworthy 787 deliveries for ages. It cannot be such a big deal to modify at least some frames per month. What’s the problem?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27641
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:48 pm

ben7x wrote:
Do we know when deliveries will start again? I mean, what’s the actual problem? Is it that much of a problem to repair the already build aircraft? Or is it not yet certified?
There haven’t been noteworthy 787 deliveries for ages. It cannot be such a big deal to modify at least some frames per month. What’s the problem?


The "problem" is the FAA has not yet approved Boeing's proposed inspection process for the aft structures and until they do, airframes cannot be delivered.

And now that there is an issue with the front structures, the FAA may want Boeing to outline a new inspection process for them, as well, before they allow the resumption of deliveries.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2858
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:08 pm

kanban wrote:
Stitch wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
I’m confused by this whole issue. I see what (kanban is) saying by the lack of AD, but on the other hand Boeing is willing passing on huge cash receipts by delaying deliveries for many months. It doesn’t sound like that minor a problem for them to do that.


The fact that the structure is out of tolerance means the planes cannot receive the paperwork from the FAA necessary for them to be delivered. So they either need to bring the frames into tolerance or work with the FAA to determine if the tolerances can be loosened with no impact to safety (short-term or long-term).

The FAA is also scrutinizing tolerances on the aft structure of the 787 and has yet to sign off on Boeing's proposed updated inspection protocols for this and will not release the paperwork necessary to deliver frames affected by this issue until they do.

So now that there is a tolerance issue on the fore structure, the FAA will likely want to roll that in, as well (and either link them together to have both in place before they authorize the resumption of deliveries or approve each individually and allow the resumption of deliveries for frames that are approved.


Having been involved in FAA process audits where the FAA compares the Procedures, Processes, and Specifications used to build and define the aircraft to the actual result. There was always a battle between Engineering, Manufacturing and QA as to what was achievable. Engineering would specify tolerances of 0.0001 inches, while Tooling and Manufacturing insisted they were not obtainable partially due to the accumulation of tolerances during manufacture and assembly. QA would hold tight to "the drawing says" and reject everything. The FAA looks at the assembly and the drawing or process specification and says they don't agree.. so it becomes an Engineering - Manufacturing pissing contest. This appears to be the hold up... getting the documentation to agree with the manufacturing capabilities.

An example was the brushed anodized finish on Eastern's 757 exterior window reveals.. QA would inspect using a high power magnifying glass and reject everything because of pattern irregularities exceeding the Engineering criteria. On a wild hair, we got the Eastern rep., QA, Engineering and Manufacturing to sit down to solve the crisis. The result was Eastern saying "if the the finish looks uniform from the airport boarding area they were happy."... Engineering capitulated and revised the specifications and production moved on. Another example of just because we can design to asinine tolerances, doesn't mean we should if they can not be obtained, or they serve no purpose.


This theory makes more sense than any other I've seen on the 787 and more than likely explains the certification delays on the 777x as well .
 
Rekoff
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 7:15 pm

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:49 am

Sooner787 wrote:
kanban wrote:
Stitch wrote:

The fact that the structure is out of tolerance means the planes cannot receive the paperwork from the FAA necessary for them to be delivered. So they either need to bring the frames into tolerance or work with the FAA to determine if the tolerances can be loosened with no impact to safety (short-term or long-term).

The FAA is also scrutinizing tolerances on the aft structure of the 787 and has yet to sign off on Boeing's proposed updated inspection protocols for this and will not release the paperwork necessary to deliver frames affected by this issue until they do.

So now that there is a tolerance issue on the fore structure, the FAA will likely want to roll that in, as well (and either link them together to have both in place before they authorize the resumption of deliveries or approve each individually and allow the resumption of deliveries for frames that are approved.


Having been involved in FAA process audits where the FAA compares the Procedures, Processes, and Specifications used to build and define the aircraft to the actual result. There was always a battle between Engineering, Manufacturing and QA as to what was achievable. Engineering would specify tolerances of 0.0001 inches, while Tooling and Manufacturing insisted they were not obtainable partially due to the accumulation of tolerances during manufacture and assembly. QA would hold tight to "the drawing says" and reject everything. The FAA looks at the assembly and the drawing or process specification and says they don't agree.. so it becomes an Engineering - Manufacturing pissing contest. This appears to be the hold up... getting the documentation to agree with the manufacturing capabilities.

An example was the brushed anodized finish on Eastern's 757 exterior window reveals.. QA would inspect using a high power magnifying glass and reject everything because of pattern irregularities exceeding the Engineering criteria. On a wild hair, we got the Eastern rep., QA, Engineering and Manufacturing to sit down to solve the crisis. The result was Eastern saying "if the the finish looks uniform from the airport boarding area they were happy."... Engineering capitulated and revised the specifications and production moved on. Another example of just because we can design to asinine tolerances, doesn't mean we should if they can not be obtained, or they serve no purpose.


This theory makes more sense than any other I've seen on the 787 and more than likely explains the certification delays on the 777x as well .


There is a letter from the FAA that laid down all the issues with certification, and there were many. Manufacturing tolerances was not one of them.
 
Opus99
Posts: 2340
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:27 pm

 
Opus99
Posts: 2340
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:28 pm

CNBC aviation reporter Phil LeBeau asked Calhoun about the lengthy inspections Boeing is doing on the 787. Production and quality control issues caused Boeing to suspend delivery of the model last October. It was resumed briefly in May before being suspended again.
“This is Boeing being tough on Boeing,” Calhoun said. “We started the inspection process. We have to be perfect. We have to get every quality issue out of the airplane. [This is] nowhere near the safety window. Most of these conditions were pre-existing almost from the start.” There are now about 100 787s in inventory, which must undergo inspections. Boeing said perhaps half will be delivered this year, a reduction from the previous forecast that nearly all would be.


https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/28/boein ... more-37167
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:44 pm

Rekoff wrote:
There is a letter from the FAA that laid down all the issues with certification, and there were many. Manufacturing tolerances was not one of them.


please provide the letter or state the actual issues.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Boeing 787 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:08 pm

[quote="Opus99"][/quote]

After watching the video and reading the article you posted, What I noticed was on the removed structural frames there were gaps in the bonding seal. the process specifications call for 100% coverage. the bonding sealants used are generally frozen and have a limited "working" envelope. depending on the type that envelope may be anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours, If the working time expires before the join is complete, the whole assembly must be separated, cleaned, residues removed, inspected, then begun again. On the bar charts these are flagged and scheduled so lunch, break, or shift change do not occur during the process.

The video talks about removing fasteners, testing for gaps and reinstalling the fasteners. Because the bonding sealant dries very hard, this may pull the composite closer at the fastener, but it doesn't provide a bonding seal that precludes water or air migration unless the test process is accomplished within the working time of the bonding sealant. the video didn't show if the replaced fasteners were installed wet meaning with a coating of paint or bonding sealant that could fill the immediate gap or dry possibly indicating an electrical pathway (like lightening protection).

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