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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 1:24 pm

WoodysAeroimag wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
i'm seeing that WH004/N779XZ has been doing alot of sorties recently...has it began NAMS testing?
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE4


BOE4 Departing on a test flight on Mar 2nd
ImageN779XZ Boeing 777-9 - C/N 65800 / LN 1587 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr


Awesome pictures, look at that wing, the 777x is an amazing machine!

I think the regulatory hurdles discussed above (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1455929&start=250#p22779375) come from the JATR report that came out a few years ago. It put the finger on extensive use of grandfathered design and requirements to save cost and time on essentially major changes. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -approval/ JATR consisted a broad group of (really independent) international aircraft certification experts and their more general observations and recommendations were taken over by international authorities. https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/The ... view_(JATR)_-_Boeing_737_MAX_Flight_Control_System

While the 737MAX is clearly a derivative of the 737NG, but the 777X is essentially a new aircraft (new wings, engines, landing gear, fuselage, cockpit, systems, tail). Initial operation clearance for entry into service will be granted by local authorities of launching customers. This means extra review and even requirements. (No US customer / FAA approval). https://aviationnews.online/2019/11/29/ ... d-the-faa/

I think the 777-9 is more then foreseen required to meet the latest requirements, not requirements inherited form the 777-200 certification 26 years ago under the so called "Changed Product Rule". I think that as foreseen by few, denied & generalized by many, that took/takes a lot of time. viewtopic.php?t=1423759. EK's Clark is suggesting 2024-2025.

I think eventually the 777-9 will do great and I expect to see many on LHR, LAX and other long haul hubs for flight to/from Asia!
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Tn55337
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Re: 777-8 status?

Wed May 19, 2021 5:45 pm

hotelbravo wrote:

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 12/photo/1

Such an impressive aircraft, IMO.


At 76.73 m long the 779 is 43 cm longer than the 748 so will be the longest airliner yet.

Long live the long dong
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 11:22 pm

Boeing 777-9 N779XX back in the air after being on the ground at BFI since April 7, 2021 (so about 1.5 months). Looks like the routing will be the usual BFI-MWH-BFI.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n779xx
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu May 27, 2021 1:36 am

https://twitter.com/propandkerosene/sta ... 82978?s=21

Some stunning shots of the 777X today.

The wingspan is something else. Wow
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu May 27, 2021 2:29 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/propandkerosene/status/1397723754323582978?s=21

Some stunning shots of the 777X today.

The wingspan is something else. Wow

:checkmark:

2nd shot, nose high and tilted to the side, is really stunning. Such a precise and interesting shape to the wing. Seems the wing tips rise slightly near the ends, as opposed to A350 whose sharklet has a real bend if not a curl (especially in the newest ones) to them. Would love to see s similar shot if (when?) an A350 gets folding wingtips. Please don't take this as A vs B, I'm not saying anything about the relative merits of either, both are very impressive.
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ER757
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu May 27, 2021 5:51 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/propandkerosene/status/1397723754323582978?s=21

Some stunning shots of the 777X today.

The wingspan is something else. Wow

I live a little south of BFI and get to see the 777X overhead quite often. I always stop what I am doing and gaze up in wonderment when it flies past. Was going low and slow one day last week and it was a sight to behold!!
 
xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 9:20 am

AAB: QR is no longer the launch Customer of the B777X.

Akbar is now informed that he will not receive the first B779 in 2022 (as he was stating), but now will receive it in 2023.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... oeing-777x
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 9:27 am

xwb777 wrote:
AAB: QR is no longer the launch Customer of the B777X.

Akbar is now informed that he will not receive the first B779 in 2022 (as he was stating), but now will receive it in 2023.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... oeing-777x

He said that 2023 date last month or so at a conference. the 2022 date was two days ago, where he also confirmed another airline will get it before him
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 10:02 am

Opus99 wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
AAB: QR is no longer the launch Customer of the B777X.

Akbar is now informed that he will not receive the first B779 in 2022 (as he was stating), but now will receive it in 2023.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... oeing-777x

He said that 2023 date last month or so at a conference. the 2022 date was two days ago, where he also confirmed another airline will get it before him


Now the question will be why? Did he deferred deliveries by a little bit? Is Boeing not ready for his slots in time and the next customer did not give up his slot and demands delivery at the expected date, so Boeing hat do push the Qatar order back? Are the first produced aircraft so out of spec that he will not take them and has to step back in the queue?

One very interesting question is, how out of spec are the already build ones and who will take them?

I guess LH will take the first official delivery now? Will they take the early ones? How cheap can LH get them as LH does not really need them for the range but rather the size, so a bit heavier is ok, but they must then be really cheap to make sense. That could bump them in the queue though.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 10:09 am

FluidFlow wrote:

Now the question will be why? Did he deferred deliveries by a little bit? Is Boeing not ready for his slots in time and the next customer did not give up his slot and demands delivery at the expected date, so Boeing hat do push the Qatar order back? Are the first produced aircraft so out of spec that he will not take them and has to step back in the queue?

I don’t think QR was ever going to the be the first operator. It was always either EK or LH.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 10:11 am

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Now the question will be why? Did he deferred deliveries by a little bit? Is Boeing not ready for his slots in time and the next customer did not give up his slot and demands delivery at the expected date, so Boeing hat do push the Qatar order back? Are the first produced aircraft so out of spec that he will not take them and has to step back in the queue?

I don’t think QR was ever going to the be the first operator. It was always either EK or LH.

Exactly. They’re maybe launch customer group but not the actual launch customer with the first frame
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 11:08 am

Opus99 wrote:
Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Now the question will be why? Did he deferred deliveries by a little bit? Is Boeing not ready for his slots in time and the next customer did not give up his slot and demands delivery at the expected date, so Boeing hat do push the Qatar order back? Are the first produced aircraft so out of spec that he will not take them and has to step back in the queue?

I don’t think QR was ever going to the be the first operator. It was always either EK or LH.

Exactly. They’re maybe launch customer group but not the actual launch customer with the first frame


Then it is just interesting that he felt the need to say that some other airline will get it before him, when that was anyway known.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 11:16 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Polot wrote:
I don’t think QR was ever going to the be the first operator. It was always either EK or LH.

Exactly. They’re maybe launch customer group but not the actual launch customer with the first frame


Then it is just interesting that he felt the need to say that some other airline will get it before him, when that was anyway known.

I think it was to clarify reports that said he was going to be the first operator after his previous statements saying QR was a launch customer. The media has a tendency to equate launch customer with first operator. In reality EK/EY/QR/LH are all jointly launch customers, and all had input in development.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 2:14 pm

Lets hope FAA/EASA do not require the 777 fly by wire to exactly duplicate, via stupid kludges, 2021 standards. The MAX disaster was at least somewhat caused by regulatory issues requiring a 1960s plane to act like a 2010 modern cockpit. The 777 needs to be as safe as the 787/350. It does not need to duplicate how it gets there.
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 2:58 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
One very interesting question is, how out of spec are the already build ones and who will take them?


I would presume the contracted customers will once the frames are brought to the final specification via change incorporation.


FluidFlow wrote:
I guess LH will take the first official delivery now? Will they take the early ones? How cheap can LH get them as LH does not really need them for the range but rather the size, so a bit heavier is ok, but they must then be really cheap to make sense. That could bump them in the queue though.


I would expect LH's initial frames will be from the latest production models that already have been built to the final spec or need the least change incorporation to be brought to said spec.

As to cost, unless the plane does not meet guarantees written into the sales contract in effect, they would not have any ground to demand Boeing lower the contract price for the frame.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 4:13 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Lets hope FAA/EASA do not require the 777 fly by wire to exactly duplicate, via stupid kludges, 2021 standards. The MAX disaster was at least somewhat caused by regulatory issues requiring a 1960s plane to act like a 2010 modern cockpit. The 777 needs to be as safe as the 787/350. It does not need to duplicate how it gets there.

MCAS was to fulfill long standing stick force gradient regulatory standards, it was all on Boeing as to how they went about meeting the standards. "Augmentation systems" go back to the yaw damper of the 1950s. If MCAS was designed, implemented and tested correctly, Boeing would be far better off today, not to mention the crash victims and their families. We have no clear indication that FAA and/or EASA are forcing Boeing to duplicate A350 or 787 technology. At best I saw an AvWeek article quoting an unnamed person suggest EASA had a preference for dissimlar systems technology, but no clear indication that this was what was driving the updated certification efforts. We also had Boeing's CEO saying the 777x actuators were being updated to meet regulations, but no more detailed info. If you have links, please share. Otherwise, to me this is coming off as a straw horse argument.
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 10:53 am

Lufthansa 777-9 LN 1677 rolling out of final assembly at PAE

Image

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/13 ... 39043?s=20
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 11:45 am

Any indication on how well, performance wise, the 779 is doing? I have heard absolutely nothing concrete except for the bluster from STC about EK refusing delivery unless it meets contract specifications. Does this imply that it is falling short, or is it just noise because EK does not want them any more?
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 1:24 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Any indication on how well, performance wise, the 779 is doing? I have heard absolutely nothing concrete except for the bluster from STC about EK refusing delivery unless it meets contract specifications. Does this imply that it is falling short, or is it just noise because EK does not want them any more?


AFAIK Boeing is keeping quiet about the performance data from the test flights. At least I have not found anything on the net. The easiest answer to the bluster of STC would be good performance data.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 2:06 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Any indication on how well, performance wise, the 779 is doing? I have heard absolutely nothing concrete except for the bluster from STC about EK refusing delivery unless it meets contract specifications. Does this imply that it is falling short, or is it just noise because EK does not want them any more?


AFAIK Boeing is keeping quiet about the performance data from the test flights. At least I have not found anything on the net. The easiest answer to the bluster of STC would be good performance data.


By that we can conclude that the data in question is below par?
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 2:50 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
By that we can conclude that the data in question is below par?


I am not sure the 777X has started NAMS testing, which is where Boeing generates the data that is used to validate the performance of the airplane against the agreements laid out in the sales contracts. So at this point, there is likely no strong basis to say the 777X is meeting, exceeding or failing to meet those contractual performance guarantees since the focus of flights so far have been to test airworthiness, clear the flight envelope that is used for validation of certification conditions and then start regularity demonstration flight tests to prove the plane meets FAA, EASA and other regulations.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Stitch wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
By that we can conclude that the data in question is below par?


I am not sure the 777X has started NAMS testing, which is where Boeing generates the data that is used to validate the performance of the airplane against the agreements laid out in the sales contracts. So at this point, there is likely no strong basis to say the 777X is meeting, exceeding or failing to meet those contractual performance guarantees since the focus of flights so far have been to test airworthiness, clear the flight envelope that is used for validation of certification conditions and then start regularity demonstration flight tests to prove the plane meets FAA, EASA and other regulations.


We can talk about NAMS testing all day long. But nobody will convince me that in all the test flights done, fuel burn would be data not collected. Furthermore the third frame is flying since August the third. That frame is supposed to do propulsion performance testing, avionics, APU and flight loads. Those test should give a good idea about the performance. The other important part in regards to performance, weight, is surly known by Boeing by now.
 
EK7777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 7:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
By that we can conclude that the data in question is below par?


I am not sure the 777X has started NAMS testing, which is where Boeing generates the data that is used to validate the performance of the airplane against the agreements laid out in the sales contracts. So at this point, there is likely no strong basis to say the 777X is meeting, exceeding or failing to meet those contractual performance guarantees since the focus of flights so far have been to test airworthiness, clear the flight envelope that is used for validation of certification conditions and then start regularity demonstration flight tests to prove the plane meets FAA, EASA and other regulations.


We can talk about NAMS testing all day long. But nobody will convince me that in all the test flights done, fuel burn would be data not collected. Furthermore the third frame is flying since August the third. That frame is supposed to do propulsion performance testing, avionics, APU and flight loads. Those test should give a good idea about the performance. The other important part in regards to performance, weight, is surly known by Boeing by now.


WH003 has only completed 24 flight hours since last August.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 12:15 am

EK7777 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Stitch wrote:

I am not sure the 777X has started NAMS testing, which is where Boeing generates the data that is used to validate the performance of the airplane against the agreements laid out in the sales contracts. So at this point, there is likely no strong basis to say the 777X is meeting, exceeding or failing to meet those contractual performance guarantees since the focus of flights so far have been to test airworthiness, clear the flight envelope that is used for validation of certification conditions and then start regularity demonstration flight tests to prove the plane meets FAA, EASA and other regulations.


We can talk about NAMS testing all day long. But nobody will convince me that in all the test flights done, fuel burn would be data not collected. Furthermore the third frame is flying since August the third. That frame is supposed to do propulsion performance testing, avionics, APU and flight loads. Those test should give a good idea about the performance. The other important part in regards to performance, weight, is surly known by Boeing by now.


WH003 has only completed 24 flight hours since last August.


So what is wrong, why is not flying? It was to be a short but intensive test campaign, with several frames operating and testing in parallel.
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 8:46 am

At what point in the development of a new aeroplane does volume production begin?

From my understanding, building a new type is not just the plane itself, but also the new tooling required to build it. Please don’t think that my following statement is trying to make this A vs B. But if my recollection is good, it appeared that when the A350 started testing, the production rate seemed very slow. I think that the first 17 or so A350s were considered a Block 1 which required a moderate degree of modification before delivery. And I think there was a much smaller “Block 2” of less than 10 frames that required much less rework.

I have the impression that Boeing have ramped up volume production at a much faster rate, in comparison. And this would suggest many, many frames requiring rework prior to delivery to meet approvals.

Is this actually the case or have I not followed enough news about the 777X?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. At what point can we just drop the “X” and just call it a 779 (and 778)?
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rj777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 1:54 pm

Have any planes been painted in a full airline livery?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 2:04 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
We can talk about NAMS testing all day long. But nobody will convince me that in all the test flights done, fuel burn would be data not collected.


Of course data has been collected and it's been fed back into the computer models, but that data may or may not be that representative of an actual revenue flight by a commercial airline.

If I am a car manufacturer testing a new model, I know the CED from the wind tunnel and I know the weight from a scale, but if all my driving to date has been around a race track to test handling and durability, the fuel burn data I have been generating at mostly full-throttle isn't really going to help me determine how close I am to making my EPA city and highway fuel consumption targets. :angel:
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 2:19 pm

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
We can talk about NAMS testing all day long. But nobody will convince me that in all the test flights done, fuel burn would be data not collected.


Of course data has been collected and it's been fed back into the computer models, but that data may or may not be that representative of an actual revenue flight by a commercial airline.

If I am a car manufacturer testing a new model, I know the CED from the wind tunnel and I know the weight from a scale, but if all my driving to date has been around a race track to test handling and durability, the fuel burn data I have been generating at mostly full-throttle isn't really going to help me determine how close I am to making my EPA city and highway fuel consumption targets. :angel:


For me the mystery deepens with the information, that the test frame build to collect performance data (apart from other tests), has only flown 48 hours since 08/03/2020. What is happening with the 777-9 test flight program?
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 2:26 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
For me the mystery deepens with the information, that the test frame build to collect performance data (apart from other tests), has only flown 48 hours since 08/03/2020. What is happening with the 777-9 test flight program?

What mystery? The whole program took a two year slip. It doesn't make sense to do tons of test flying if you don't have the final article, you'd have to repeat all those tests once you do.
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 5:23 pm

rj777 wrote:
Have any planes been painted in a full airline livery?


Unfortunately, no. All are either in green primer or have a white protective coating applied except for the four test aircraft.
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 5:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
For me the mystery deepens with the information, that the test frame build to collect performance data (apart from other tests), has only flown 48 hours since 08/03/2020. What is happening with the 777-9 test flight program?

Revelation wrote:
What mystery? The whole program took a two year slip. It doesn't make sense to do tons of test flying if you don't have the final article, you'd have to repeat all those tests once you do.


Based on posts, it also appears the various certification authorities are still figuring out what they want Boeing to test, which implies a final certification plan has not yet been created. So why put hours on the airframe when you don't know if those hours will actually be relevant?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 5:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
For me the mystery deepens with the information, that the test frame build to collect performance data (apart from other tests), has only flown 48 hours since 08/03/2020. What is happening with the 777-9 test flight program?

What mystery? The whole program took a two year slip. It doesn't make sense to do tons of test flying if you don't have the final article, you'd have to repeat all those tests once you do.


A slip occurred before the first test frame flew. Do you indicate that Boeing has to scrap some test frames and build new ones?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 7:05 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
For me the mystery deepens with the information, that the test frame build to collect performance data (apart from other tests), has only flown 48 hours since 08/03/2020. What is happening with the 777-9 test flight program?

What mystery? The whole program took a two year slip. It doesn't make sense to do tons of test flying if you don't have the final article, you'd have to repeat all those tests once you do.

A slip occurred before the first test frame flew. Do you indicate that Boeing has to scrap some test frames and build new ones?

I can say with total confidence that I did not expect anyone to make the giant leap from "not the final article" to scrapping frames, that one is totally on you.
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 7:46 pm

It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 7:58 pm

Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.

It is easier to understand if you consider that the "no information" claim is coming from the CEO of an airline under duress and with a history of using the media for his own purposes.
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RobK
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 8:53 pm

The 2nd Max 7 and Max 9 certification frames did only a handful of flights over 2 years. This is nothing new with certification frames.
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 9:29 pm

Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.


If the first delivery is planned no earlier than late 2023, it's understandable that Boeing is not in a hurry to spend on flight test hours right now, not even considering that they could need to introduce some upgrades to the test fleet prior to complete the flight test campaign. I wouldn't find it shocking that the flight test campaign would only start gaining traction again in the 2d half of 2022.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 10:27 pm

tomcat wrote:
Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.


If the first delivery is planned no earlier than late 2023, it's understandable that Boeing is not in a hurry to spend on flight test hours right now, not even considering that they could need to introduce some upgrades to the test fleet prior to complete the flight test campaign. I wouldn't find it shocking that the flight test campaign would only start gaining traction again in the 2d half of 2022.


When Boeing starts serious testing in the second half of of 2022, one should expect an EIS not before 2024 and late 2024 at that. The test campaigns have been taking longer than a year. The need for changes often creep up while testing.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 10:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.

It is easier to understand if you consider that the "no information" claim is coming from the CEO of an airline under duress and with a history of using the media for his own purposes.


A claim easy to counter with providing information.
 
bigb
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 10:45 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.


If the first delivery is planned no earlier than late 2023, it's understandable that Boeing is not in a hurry to spend on flight test hours right now, not even considering that they could need to introduce some upgrades to the test fleet prior to complete the flight test campaign. I wouldn't find it shocking that the flight test campaign would only start gaining traction again in the 2d half of 2022.


When Boeing starts serious testing in the second half of of 2022, one should expect an EIS not before 2024 and late 2024 at that. The test campaigns have been taking longer than a year. The need for changes often creep up while testing.


I still believe test will not be ramping back up to 2022 with a EIS of 2023. Right now the hold up is Boeing waiting on regulators to determine certification criteria. Otherwise you are wasting hours on good frames.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 11:06 pm

bigb wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
tomcat wrote:

If the first delivery is planned no earlier than late 2023, it's understandable that Boeing is not in a hurry to spend on flight test hours right now, not even considering that they could need to introduce some upgrades to the test fleet prior to complete the flight test campaign. I wouldn't find it shocking that the flight test campaign would only start gaining traction again in the 2d half of 2022.


When Boeing starts serious testing in the second half of of 2022, one should expect an EIS not before 2024 and late 2024 at that. The test campaigns have been taking longer than a year. The need for changes often creep up while testing.


I still believe test will not be ramping back up to 2022 with a EIS of 2023. Right now the hold up is Boeing waiting on regulators to determine certification criteria. Otherwise you are wasting hours on good frames.

Show me a test campaign in the last decade or two that has taken a year only and we had a few, that were not completely new families, but derivatives not as ambitious as the 777-9. Than one has to do possible changes to production frames before delivery.
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 11:09 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.


If the first delivery is planned no earlier than late 2023, it's understandable that Boeing is not in a hurry to spend on flight test hours right now, not even considering that they could need to introduce some upgrades to the test fleet prior to complete the flight test campaign. I wouldn't find it shocking that the flight test campaign would only start gaining traction again in the 2d half of 2022.


When Boeing starts serious testing in the second half of of 2022, one should expect an EIS not before 2024 and late 2024 at that. The test campaigns have been taking longer than a year. The need for changes often creep up while testing.


Back in January, the 777X fleet had already accumulated 900 flight hours. This is already a fair number of hours. There is no point to fly around just for the sake of finding potential problems, this is not the purpose of a flight test campaign. We also know that there are firmware and hardware changes to the actuator control electronics. I would think that little will happen before these changes are incorporated in the test fleet. After all, they were good reasons for delaying the entry into service to 2023. It wouldn't make much sense to go on with the flight test campaign prior to incorporating changes essential to obtain the certification.

For reference, the first 787 delivery took place about 21 months after its first flight while it took 18 months for the A350. With 900 hours already logged by the 777X and the flight test fleet being complete, it's reasonable to consider the first 777X delivery could take place within 15 months of the resumption of the flight test campaign if the path to certification has been cleared.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 7:48 am

Connecting the dots Boeing is changing quite a bit on the 777-9. At least so much that continuing current flight testing doesn't make sense to them.
What is changed? Why don't we know? This is a product being sold around the globe intended to soon to be used by some flying public near you. How can a manufacturer just stay silent? What a strange way to handle it whatever it is?
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 8:09 am

Noshow wrote:
Connecting the dots Boeing is changing quite a bit on the 777-9. At least so much that continuing current flight testing doesn't make sense to them.
What is changed? Why don't we know? This is a product being sold around the globe intended to soon to be used by some flying public near you. How can a manufacturer just stay silent? What a strange way to handle it whatever it is?


Isn't it normal to change things during the development?

Boeing already stated that the EIS of the 777-9 was delayed to late 2023. I think that's amply enough.
In the mean time they are still flying some of the the flight test articles and it seems they are also proceeding with the production of the airframes.

The flight testing pace and the delay should give them a little bit more schedule buffer such that they can provide time for the collected data to be properly analyzed.
It is a madness to fly the flight test articles all the time when there are still adjustment to be made.

It is much better to run a flight test campaign orderly. They need to fly the aircraft, analyze the data, make any necessary adjustments on all of the flight test articles and only then fly again. It is damn stupid to fly an aircraft that is not in the certification configuration.

I have seen stupid things done during an aircraft development in my past life. Flight test were conducted when modifications were still in the pipeline. Guess what? They needed to rerun the damn same flight test card (or flight test program) all over again. If it happens only once for certain flight test card (flight test program) I would have been less severe. In some cases, the same damn flight test program was flown three times or even more because some modification were introduced in between.

I would not go to specifics, but those involved in that specific flight test campaign know what I am talking about. And believe me the public has not been informed about those modifications because the only ones need to get informed are the manufacturer, the suppliers and the regulatory bodies.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 8:16 am

The customers (and their customers, the passengers) have obviously been forgotten. There is nothing wrong with changes and finding better solutions but why be so quiet about it?
Two years are a lot of time. So much time that you could build entirely new test airframes...

The whole "little more buffer" narrative stinks.
Anybody remembers Boeing going back from parts of 777X-fuselage robot manufacturing to manual assembly?
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 2:47 pm

Anyone know if the VMU tests have been conducted yet?

How far along in a test campaign do the VMU tests usually take place?
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 4:32 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Anyone know if the VMU tests have been conducted yet?

How far along in a test campaign do the VMU tests usually take place?


A tail skid has been on N779XW for several months now but I haven’t heard or seen the 779 do any VMU testing. Usually happens at VCV but our long runway 17/35 is closed with a ton of aircraft parked on it so they’ll probably have to use EDW whenever they decide to get to VMU testing.

Not sure exactly when in the flight test campaign VMU testing occurs, hopefully someone else on this thread can provide some more insight :)
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 4:59 pm

Noshow wrote:
The customers (and their customers, the passengers) have obviously been forgotten. There is nothing wrong with changes and finding better solutions but why be so quiet about it?
Two years are a lot of time. So much time that you could build entirely new test airframes...

The whole "little more buffer" narrative stinks.
Anybody remembers Boeing going back from parts of 777X-fuselage robot manufacturing to manual assembly?

Interesting you dig up a story from many years ago about a relatively minor glitch (hint: all the planes of that era were delivered and are in the hands of customers as we speak, and before it is asked, no they were not scrapped) then complain you aren't getting chapter and verse on each change as it happens.

You are demonstrating why Boeing should not deliver blow by blow and chapter and verse to the unwashed masses, it mostly serves to give relatively uniformed people some trashy takes to throw around and would just burn cycles of Boeing employees trying to clean up after them.

You also are challenging the pace of development, yet Boeing is finding itself trying to recover from a tragedy that many claim sprung from too much time pressure during development.

Boeing's CEO is saying they are using the time to apply lessons learned during the MAX tragedy and indicating they are working on rebuilding their relationship with the regulators, something that cannot be rushed.

Honestly, your post reads as if Boeing should rush development and report each glitch it finds so under-informed people can talk trash and put unnecessary fear into the minds of future passengers, with no indication why Boeing would chose to do something so harmful to their interests and that of future passengers.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 6:20 pm

I didn't favour any rush. I complained about a total lack of communication. Over years. This might indicate that something more serious is going on or needs changes?
Why not share what gets improved and when? If Boeing doesn't say anything finally rumours will take over.
I perfectly understand that they don't want to be perceived as cocky by the FAA with constant PR-fireworks but there is a lot of room to manoeuvre before you don't say anything at all.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 7:45 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Anyone know if the VMU tests have been conducted yet?

How far along in a test campaign do the VMU tests usually take place?


Vmu test is considered as a test with some level of risk.
In addition it is just to determine the minimum unstick speed limit that enters into the determination of permissible take-off weight.

It is also the case of the maximum brake energy limit.

That's why those tests are usually done toward the end of the certification.
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