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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 8:43 pm

Two years IS a lot of time. I didn't suggest they should be faster I suggested they should talk a about what is changed and what for two years are needed.
It is almost funny that you get more program updates from UAC than from Boeing these days.
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 8:51 pm

Noshow wrote:
I didn't favour any rush. I complained about a total lack of communication. Over years. This might indicate that something more serious is going on or needs changes?
Why not share what gets improved and when? If Boeing doesn't say anything finally rumours will take over.
I perfectly understand that they don't want to be perceived as cocky by the FAA with constant PR-fireworks but there is a lot of room to manoeuvre before you don't say anything at all.


Although I agree that Boeing sounds very silent, Boeing did communicate on some changes and we can also make our own assessment from what is publicly known:
(1) they have stated that there are firmware and hardware changes to the actuator control electronics. These changes were described by Boeing as "prudent changes" to satisfy the authorities. I'm not very familiar with these items but it doesn't look to me that it's a quick change. If this set of changes was anecdotal, I doubt it would have even been mentioned and surely not described as a "prudent change". This change alone could explain a good part of the delay if its incorporation is required to progress further on the flight test campaign.

(2) there was the early failure during the static test. A lot of attention went to the door that flew away but the root cause of the failure was said to be located in the keel of the fuselage. I don't know whether "keel" was used as a generic term or if it meant "keel beam". In any case, the failure occurred very close to the ultimate load, the fix should not involve a major redesign. The fact that Boeing has not stopped the assembly of the 777X is a good indication that they don't expect major structural retrofits before starting the deliveries.
It’s the initiating failure, the weakness in that localized area of the keel, that Boeing must now fix.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-777xs-fuselage-split-dramatically-during-september-stress-test/

(3) We also know that there is some redesign related to the folding wingtip (or is this covered by (1) ? ):
No details have emerged about what has been agreed since and if test flights of the 777X, which began on January 25, 2020, have identified any flaws or deficiencies in the folding wing tip mechanism. But David Calhoun’s remarks this week are an indication of a recent wish from regulators to further improve the reliability and redundancy of the system. It is significant the redesign is happening quite late in the program. The redesign is one of the reasons why the delivery of the first 777-9 to Emirates has slipped by a year to late 2023


https://airinsight.com/redesign-777x-seems-to-focus-on-wing-tip-mechanism/
 
PJ01
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:37 am

Noshow wrote:
Two years IS a lot of time. I didn't suggest they should be faster I suggested they should talk a about what is changed and what for two years are needed.
It is almost funny that you get more program updates from UAC than from Boeing these days.


The people who need to know the changes, likely do know. The general public are not those people.

Also, while a 2 year slip would otherwise be quite large, who knows how much of that 2 years is Boeing adding buffer time for any extra, unforseen issues that may arise later in flight testing? With the current Covid climate, airlines certainly don't need the extra capacity and most are quite likely very thankful for the delay as it saves them cash outlay in the current cash-strapped time.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:57 am

Sure this is why even Tim Clark complained in public.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:10 am

PJ01 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Two years IS a lot of time. I didn't suggest they should be faster I suggested they should talk a about what is changed and what for two years are needed.
It is almost funny that you get more program updates from UAC than from Boeing these days.


The people who need to know the changes, likely do know. The general public are not those people.

Also, while a 2 year slip would otherwise be quite large, who knows how much of that 2 years is Boeing adding buffer time for any extra, unforseen issues that may arise later in flight testing? With the current Covid climate, airlines certainly don't need the extra capacity and most are quite likely very thankful for the delay as it saves them cash outlay in the current cash-strapped time.


It is not unusual to have two years delay.
Even the "smooth" development of the A350-1000 got delayed by more than two years. Finally it entered into service only in 2018.
https://www.flightglobal.com/paris-a350 ... 96.article

Obviously the delays on the 777-9 program is a big issue for Boeing.

The fact the COVID-19 crisis hit hard airlines' business is a kind of relief for Boeing. People may have noticed that widebody deliveries plunged during the last twelve month. Inventories in Seattle and in Toulouse is mind-bogglingly huge.
Is it even an issue to delay the 777-9 EIS by three years? COnsidering the huge number of parked widebody aircraft, including very young ones, I do not think airlines need extra capacity in the next two years. They need to get those unpaid aircraft back into service before accepting delivery of new aircraft.

I can understand why some people here are quite vocal about "the 777X being delayed", but the reality is the delay is not a huge issue.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:25 am

I am not vocal about the fact of a delay I am vocal about a manufacturer who keeps too quiet. Not only for my taste it seems.
Boeing had been so much better about communicating what is going on but prefers to stay silent today. Their choice. My choice is to comment in a forum like this. We are talking about a major commercial program in flight test not about some secret trade study.
 
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CCA
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:09 am

Where does it say Boeing or any other manufacturer has to tell the public what’s going on?

I can assure you the airlines get briefings consistently.
Enthusiast
 
galleypower
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:09 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.

It is easier to understand if you consider that the "no information" claim is coming from the CEO of an airline under duress and with a history of using the media for his own purposes.


A claim easy to counter with providing information.


Why should they? Those in the know know. No other B779 customer ist complaining, not even Qatar. LH is even standing by Boeings side. In a press note they said, we can not confirm Emirates claim, we have all the information we need or want.

That still leaves the question, why is EK complaining publicly and why is LH responding that way?
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:22 am

galleypower wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It is easier to understand if you consider that the "no information" claim is coming from the CEO of an airline under duress and with a history of using the media for his own purposes.


A claim easy to counter with providing information.


Why should they? Those in the know know. No other B779 customer ist complaining, not even Qatar. LH is even standing by Boeings side. In a press note they said, we can not confirm Emirates claim, we have all the information we need or want.

That still leaves the question, why is EK complaining publicly and why is LH responding that way?

Since LH is by all accounts an excellent airline with good relations with both Airbus and Boeing, while EK is known for playing hardball with both (including using the press for negotiating) it is easy for me to draw my own conclusion. EK is an airline that depends much more than most on international traffic. They also have a much bigger proportion of their fleet as widebodies than most airlines. Hence they have most likely been hurt by the pandemic more than most. The LAST thing they need right now is a bunch of brand new large widebodies showing up in Dubai that they have to pay for but can’t utilize. So it is very consistent with their modus operandi to cast shade upon the aircraft in question rather than talk honestly (and privately) with the manufacturer of said aircraft about their predicament and work out the best solution for both parties. The fact that LH uncharacteristically would say that they are receiving all the information that they want or need is very telling to me. They normally would have nothing to say publicly at this point. And it very much looks to me that a big reason for the current delay in testing the 779 is Boeing’s realization that ALL of the customer’s for it are currently unable to use it effectively on the schedule on which they purchased it and welcome any delay at this point as a bit of a lifeline.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:49 pm

tomcat wrote:
Although I agree that Boeing sounds very silent, Boeing did communicate on some changes...

Not sure how you can start off a list of detailed issues made public by saying they 'sound very silent'. Not sure what more we can/should expect to hear from them. Seems to me they are communicating at an industry standard level, with updates being given at pretty much every quarterly earnings call.

SEPilot wrote:
Since LH is by all accounts an excellent airline with good relations with both Airbus and Boeing, while EK is known for playing hardball with both (including using the press for negotiating) it is easy for me to draw my own conclusion. EK is an airline that depends much more than most on international traffic. They also have a much bigger proportion of their fleet as widebodies than most airlines. Hence they have most likely been hurt by the pandemic more than most. The LAST thing they need right now is a bunch of brand new large widebodies showing up in Dubai that they have to pay for but can’t utilize. So it is very consistent with their modus operandi to cast shade upon the aircraft in question rather than talk honestly (and privately) with the manufacturer of said aircraft about their predicament and work out the best solution for both parties. The fact that LH uncharacteristically would say that they are receiving all the information that they want or need is very telling to me. They normally would have nothing to say publicly at this point. And it very much looks to me that a big reason for the current delay in testing the 779 is Boeing’s realization that ALL of the customer’s for it are currently unable to use it effectively on the schedule on which they purchased it and welcome any delay at this point as a bit of a lifeline.

Taking this to the next step, if Boeing should release a bunch of stuff to call STC's bluff as many here clamor for, all that would do is embarrass a big customer in public. The man has $billions of 777X and 787 on order. It makes sense to let the guy rail on rather than crush him in public.
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tomcat
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Although I agree that Boeing sounds very silent, Boeing did communicate on some changes...

Not sure how you can start off a list of detailed issues made public by saying they 'sound very silent'. Not sure what more we can/should expect to hear from them. Seems to me they are communicating at an industry standard level, with updates being given at pretty much every quarterly earnings call.


I'm just trying to sympathize with an avgeek who is close to the total meltdown for not hearing much from Boeing on what's going on with 777X. I have indeed listed the issues that I have read about to prove him that we actually know a few things and possibly significant ones, but it's not like we get to enjoy (let's dream) a weekly status addressed to the Airliners.net members about the ongoing redesign activities, the redesign incorporation, the flight test campaign and so on. Maybe we, the members of this forum, could put together a list of questions we have about the 777X status and send it to Boeing communication team and see what's happening. Even Simple Flying get the opportunity to interview some CEOs :-).

Let me start with a first question:
- Have you completed the redesign required after the early failure of the Static Test?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:31 pm

tomcat wrote:
I'm just trying to sympathize with an avgeek who is close to the total meltdown for not hearing much from Boeing on what's going on with 777X. I have indeed listed the issues that I have read about to prove him that we actually know a few things and possibly significant ones, but it's not like we get to enjoy (let's dream) a weekly status addressed to the Airliners.net members about the ongoing redesign activities, the redesign incorporation, the flight test campaign and so on. Maybe we, the members of this forum, could put together a list of questions we have about the 777X status and send it to Boeing communication team and see what's happening. Even Simple Flying get the opportunity to interview some CEOs :-).

Let me start with a first question:
- Have you completed the redesign required after the early failure of the Static Test?

Thanks for the clarification, your post is well written.

I wish there would be more openness industry wide, but I don't think we'll see it. I say this as someone who has been a development engineer for decades. Public statements just create expectations that may become disappointments or may create limitations on how you can address future issues that arise unexpectedly. I also think a lot of Boeing's near term future is in the hands of the regulators, so they can't make statements with high amounts of clarity and confidence since they themselves don't know what will or will not be acceptable to the regulators.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:46 pm

tomcat wrote:
I have indeed listed the issues that I have read about to prove him that we actually know a few things and possibly significant ones, but it's not like we get to enjoy (let's dream) a weekly status addressed to the Airliners.net members about the ongoing redesign activities, the redesign incorporation, the flight test campaign and so on. Maybe we, the members of this forum, could put together a list of questions we have about the 777X status and send it to Boeing communication team and see what's happening. Even Simple Flying get the opportunity to interview some CEOs :-).

Let me start with a first question:
- Have you completed the redesign required after the early failure of the Static Test?

The acid test of satisfactory customer information is to list all the key questions and issues, and ask Boeing if customers and their financiers, have answers, or a firm timetable for answers. If Boeing decline, ask customers.

ANet members working on the X, previously outspoken and expert on MAX and X issues, should be able to fill in some gaps.

The latest 777X contract revision (Boeing refer to as an update), increases compensation, but reduces 'wriggle room' to defer / cancel when Boeing is ready to deliver.

Learned technical members on ANet previously advised there was no static test failure, as it was within the margin of error. Has this position changed?

Time may show Tranche 1 of the LH 777X acquisition is linked to a 748i put option.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:35 pm

tomcat wrote:
Revelation wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Although I agree that Boeing sounds very silent, Boeing did communicate on some changes...

Not sure how you can start off a list of detailed issues made public by saying they 'sound very silent'. Not sure what more we can/should expect to hear from them. Seems to me they are communicating at an industry standard level, with updates being given at pretty much every quarterly earnings call.


I'm just trying to sympathize with an avgeek who is close to the total meltdown for not hearing much from Boeing on what's going on with 777X. I have indeed listed the issues that I have read about to prove him that we actually know a few things and possibly significant ones, but it's not like we get to enjoy (let's dream) a weekly status addressed to the Airliners.net members about the ongoing redesign activities, the redesign incorporation, the flight test campaign and so on. Maybe we, the members of this forum, could put together a list of questions we have about the 777X status and send it to Boeing communication team and see what's happening. Even Simple Flying get the opportunity to interview some CEOs :-).

Let me start with a first question:
- Have you completed the redesign required after the early failure of the Static Test?



Yes they have. As Gates mentioned a while ago in his article,
each plane is being modified in the Keel as a result of the static test.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:25 pm

If you look at the tests happening today and of recent weeks they pretty much mirror what the start of the campaign was like. A lot of stability and control that sort of thing. So maybe they’ve implemented the changes on WH001 and they have to do all those tests again?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:17 am

Boeing got hammered by the public and the FAA when they announced dates the MAX review would be done by, Dennis walked the plank for this, Calhoun had to kiss some feet and say it would not happen again. So Boeing is required to be very confidential over this process. The certification process is now different for all changed and new models, but in particular at Boeing, for they were found to be 'cheating' the process, so the FAA has a new 'Trust, but Verify' approach, and I suspect very, very few "the 1992 part certification identified the capacities and conditions, review found the revised required capacities and conditions are met." They are getting replaced with an actual review of the 1992 part design to see if the assumptions and design methods are still compatible. Some of the 747 parts are still ink on mylar with calculations not far from the slide rule era.

My work is around Marine systems and facilities, the reviews of projects is getting more and more detailed every year. Review of the actual Finite Element models used to not happen, now it is a requirement to turn in the actual data sets that they run on their own computers. The reviews are quite concise, often had to explain why I selected a specific spring stiffness on a boundary condition, etc. Then, tougher material cert requirements are in effect, way too many counterfeit bolt and materials are out there. A Japanese steel mill a number of years ago admitted to faking their chemical and mechanical properties reports for years, so no idea if the stainless had sufficient chromium or the yield strength was really over 50 KSI.

Basically the 77X is going through a certification more like a clean sheet than an update, it will take time and also be confidential to not upset the regulators.
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:01 am

Revelation wrote:
I wish there would be more openness industry wide, but I don't think we'll see it. I say this as someone who has been a development engineer for decades. Public statements just create expectations that may become disappointments or may create limitations on how you can address future issues that arise unexpectedly. I also think a lot of Boeing's near term future is in the hands of the regulators, so they can't make statements with high amounts of clarity and confidence since they themselves don't know what will or will not be acceptable to the regulators.


Public statements by Boeing can also be interpreted as placing inappropriate pressure on the regulatory authorities. Any technical statement no matter how seemingly innocuous once discussed and debated in the press could work against Boeing and regulators in resolving what are usually complex technical issues and interpretations. Neither Boeing or the regulators should ever be placed in a position were there is the potential of drawing lines in the sand, which would be subsequently difficult to walk back from.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:38 pm

It is quite surprising that some a.net members do not fully recognise the changed context in which the 777X certification is taking place.
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Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:50 pm

Noshow wrote:
It is still hard to understand that a test fleet is parked instead of flying while no information is given about the status or possible changes aside from the slip.


If the FAA / EASA are updating their wish list for the flight test program, no sense wasting $$$$ on Jet A until
Boeing has an updated playbook from the regulators.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:49 am

Boeing knows exactly how a flight test program works. What might not work anymore is grandfathering in the scale hoped for. So just do a "full" test program. Shouldn't this work? What are those critical areas? What cannot be used without grandfathering?

Are aviation authorities the ones "to blame" for the delay because they need so much time to make up their minds? Is something physical more serious on the aircraft in need of changes?
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:09 pm

Noshow wrote:
Boeing knows exactly how a flight test program works. What might not work anymore is grandfathering in the scale hoped for. So just do a "full" test program. Shouldn't this work? What are those critical areas? What cannot be used without grandfathering?

Are aviation authorities the ones "to blame" for the delay because they need so much time to make up their minds? Is something physical more serious on the aircraft in need of changes?

First, just proceeding with a full flight test program as if it were a new design will undoubtedly be overkill and waste resources. Second, and more importantly, at this point none of the customers are clamoring for their planes and every single one of them are undoubtedly issuing sighs of relief over the delays. Boeing is well aware of the tight spots that all of its customers are in and will do all it can to alleviate them. They of course want to ultimately deliver all the planes they have on order and sell more as well. But bankrupt airlines don’t take new planes. And not delivering planes puts financial pressure on Boeing as well. So wasting money on needless flight tests is a very bad idea at this point. Boeing has a fine line to walk and from what I see they are doing a good job of it. I also think the pause in delivering 787s is related as well. While the problem is undoubtedly real were the customers clamoring for their new planes I am sure Boeing would find a way to deal with it in a more expeditious manner.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:45 am

So to be clear, the detractors of the 777X wanted enhanced certification and removal of grandfathering due to the MAX saga and claiming that all the changes meant the a/c should be certified as a new build. The FAA and EASA have mandated changes, all of which we do not yet know so additional delays in years has been placed on the frames, and the detractors are now complaining that the test process has enough a/c to produce quicker results, Boeing is hiding information with the implication that the a/c is not meeting specs.
Really can't make this up, no idea why the supporters of the a/c would take up the bait. I am more inclined to see if we can get more information on the additional requirements the regulators are pushing, we know from the MAX threads that they say they want X but how the OEM satisfies that requirement is up to the OEM. So if we know the requirements, we can speculate on the how from an informed position.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:48 am

par13del wrote:
So to be clear, the detractors of the 777X wanted enhanced certification and removal of grandfathering due to the MAX saga and claiming that all the changes meant the a/c should be certified as a new build. The FAA and EASA have mandated changes, all of which we do not yet know so additional delays in years has been placed on the frames, and the detractors are now complaining that the test process has enough a/c to produce quicker results, Boeing is hiding information with the implication that the a/c is not meeting specs.
Really can't make this up, no idea why the supporters of the a/c would take up the bait. I am more inclined to see if we can get more information on the additional requirements the regulators are pushing, we know from the MAX threads that they say they want X but how the OEM satisfies that requirement is up to the OEM. So if we know the requirements, we can speculate on the how from an informed position.



If by detractors you mean a buyer complaining they are not seeing the data, then yes this is what is happening right now. I also know that when the first 2 aircraft were doing flights there were posts mentioning that performance data will already be known by Boeing, even if it wasn't done by the official test aircraft that will do the performance testing. Now whether this was detractors or supporters I don't know, but how do those posts fit in with your view of the situation?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:07 am

par13del wrote:
So to be clear, the detractors of the 777X wanted enhanced certification and removal of grandfathering due to the MAX saga and claiming that all the changes meant the a/c should be certified as a new build. The FAA and EASA have mandated changes, all of which we do not yet know so additional delays in years has been placed on the frames, and the detractors are now complaining that the test process has enough a/c to produce quicker results, Boeing is hiding information with the implication that the a/c is not meeting specs.
Really can't make this up, no idea why the supporters of the a/c would take up the bait. I am more inclined to see if we can get more information on the additional requirements the regulators are pushing, we know from the MAX threads that they say they want X but how the OEM satisfies that requirement is up to the OEM. So if we know the requirements, we can speculate on the how from an informed position.

STCs requirements may not be everybody’s requirements. In the fact that he’s the only one making noise. Our other noise maker has had many chances to make noise but no he says “we have no problems with Boeing, we will take all our 777X aircraft”. LH says “perfect aircraft for us when it comes to market”. I’m sceptical of the idea that Boeing is hiding data. Tim clark said since the GE9X took off since 2018 he has not seen any data. And you believe that crap? Anyway there’s no point arguing this.

If that’s the case. He should be giving GE the same energy. He knows he can’t collect the cash break he so desperately needs from them
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:16 am

enzo011 wrote:
Now whether this was detractors or supporters I don't know, but how do those posts fit in with your view of the situation?

As stated, the regulators have caused a multi year slip in EIS in large part due to the MAX saga and possibly those pushing for enhanced certification, other than the actuators and the blow out which no one seems to be talking about, what exactly is taking years to fix on an a/c that had its initial test flights then everything went sideways?
Any speculation here on additional cockpit changes, avionics, FBW software, basically nothing because we know nothing, where are all the whistle blowers who came out of the Boeing and FAA woodwork to give us more perspective?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:30 pm

par13del wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
Now whether this was detractors or supporters I don't know, but how do those posts fit in with your view of the situation?

As stated, the regulators have caused a multi year slip in EIS in large part due to the MAX saga and possibly those pushing for enhanced certification, other than the actuators and the blow out which no one seems to be talking about, what exactly is taking years to fix on an a/c that had its initial test flights then everything went sideways?
Any speculation here on additional cockpit changes, avionics, FBW software, basically nothing because we know nothing, where are all the whistle blowers who came out of the Boeing and FAA woodwork to give us more perspective?


IMO that the regulators caused a multi year slip is far of the mark.

Boeing did not follow the rules in regards to the certification of the MAX. Yes the FAA depended on Boeing doing it's due diligence, but bad supervision is still no reason for Boeing playing fast and dirty with the rules.
So than the regulators, the international regulators having realized that there was no depending on the FAA, had a close look at other Boeing programs. If everything would have been OK with the adherence to the rules with the 777X program, no delay should have happened.
I assume the delay occurs because Boeing tried some shortcuts again.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:24 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
Now whether this was detractors or supporters I don't know, but how do those posts fit in with your view of the situation?

As stated, the regulators have caused a multi year slip in EIS in large part due to the MAX saga and possibly those pushing for enhanced certification, other than the actuators and the blow out which no one seems to be talking about, what exactly is taking years to fix on an a/c that had its initial test flights then everything went sideways?
Any speculation here on additional cockpit changes, avionics, FBW software, basically nothing because we know nothing, where are all the whistle blowers who came out of the Boeing and FAA woodwork to give us more perspective?


IMO that the regulators caused a multi year slip is far of the mark.

Boeing did not follow the rules in regards to the certification of the MAX. Yes the FAA depended on Boeing doing it's due diligence, but bad supervision is still no reason for Boeing playing fast and dirty with the rules.
So than the regulators, the international regulators having realized that there was no depending on the FAA, had a close look at other Boeing programs. If everything would have been OK with the adherence to the rules with the 777X program, no delay should have happened.
I assume the delay occurs because Boeing tried some shortcuts again.

So perhaps since you may be more privy to what the regulators now require and the shortcuts Boeing have taken, perhaps you can share so folks can speculate on solid ground?
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:33 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
IMO that the regulators caused a multi year slip is far of the mark.

I assume the delay occurs because Boeing tried some shortcuts again.


It's public knowledge that the certification program for the 777X has changed and is much more expansive and prolonged than Boeing originally planned. Part of these changes include EASA performing their own concurrent and independent certification of the plane alongside the FAA and a European customer (LH) was until recently the formal launch customer for the type and might have been in line to receive the first operational frame. So until recently, it was possible that the 777X could not start commercial services until EASA signed off on it and EASA has said they are "taking all the time they feel appropriate" to complete said sign-off.

In addition to EASA, the certification authority (GCAA) for three other major customers (EK, EY and ET) also was closely watching both the FAA and EASA and might also be conducting their own concurrent and independent certification prior to signing off on those three customers being able to take planes.

And one presumes that with EASA and the GCAA looking close, all the other customer's certification agencies are at least paying closer attention to the process and possibly asking questions or clarifications that could have a time-impact on the introduction of commercial services with the type.

To assume that with all this focus on their certification process for the 777X, Boeing would try some shortcuts again is...far off the mark.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:41 pm

And there might be technical modifications Boeing is doing.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:49 pm

Stitch wrote:
To assume that with all this focus on their certification process for the 777X, Boeing would try some shortcuts again is...far off the mark.

As the old expression goes, never ass-u-me, it makes an ass out of you and me.

If one person can ass-u-me that Boeing took shortcuts again, another can ass-u-me that the regulators are being vindictive and spiteful.

It becomes a vicious circle.
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:20 pm

Noshow wrote:
And there might be technical modifications Boeing is doing.

Might?

Boeing’s latest 777X delay results partly from modifications Boeing is making to the jet’s design, including to actuator controls, so as to meet regulators’ “expectations”.

The company is “making prudent design modifications as necessary”, Boeing chief executive David Calhoun says of the 777X development programme.

Boeing is working on “firmware and hardware changes” involving actuator controls, Calhoun adds, saying the move “reflects expectations of global regulators”.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 51.article

This has been public knowledge for many months now.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:31 pm

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
IMO that the regulators caused a multi year slip is far of the mark.

I assume the delay occurs because Boeing tried some shortcuts again.


It's public knowledge that the certification program for the 777X has changed and is much more expansive and prolonged than Boeing originally planned. Part of these changes include EASA performing their own concurrent and independent certification of the plane alongside the FAA and a European customer (LH) was until recently the formal launch customer for the type and might have been in line to receive the first operational frame. So until recently, it was possible that the 777X could not start commercial services until EASA signed off on it and EASA has said they are "taking all the time they feel appropriate" to complete said sign-off.

In addition to EASA, the certification authority (GCAA) for three other major customers (EK, EY and ET) also was closely watching both the FAA and EASA and might also be conducting their own concurrent and independent certification prior to signing off on those three customers being able to take planes.

And one presumes that with EASA and the GCAA looking close, all the other customer's certification agencies are at least paying closer attention to the process and possibly asking questions or clarifications that could have a time-impact on the introduction of commercial services with the type.

To assume that with all this focus on their certification process for the 777X, Boeing would try some shortcuts again is...far off the mark.


It is right on the mark. Because regulators like EASA could no longer trust the FAA to control Boeing, they had to do their own due diligence. If you point me to the regulation or rule changes that have happened, I will gladly change my mind. As it is IMO the regulators keep pressing Boeing to follow the rules, rather than interpret them to suit Boeing.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:00 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
If you point me to the regulation or rule changes that have happened, I will gladly change my mind. As it is IMO the regulators keep pressing Boeing to follow the rules, rather than interpret them to suit Boeing.


H.R.8408 - Aircraft Certification Reform and Accountability Act
November 18, 2020

Section that may be of interest:
(b) Amended Type Certificate Report And Rulemaking.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... 8929D1DE49

Also, a nice article on the topic: https://www.flightglobal.com/737-max-tw ... 67.article
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:06 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
IMO that the regulators caused a multi year slip is far of the mark.

I assume the delay occurs because Boeing tried some shortcuts again.

It's public knowledge that the certification program for the 777X has changed and is much more expansive and prolonged than Boeing originally planned.
...
To assume that with all this focus on their certification process for the 777X, Boeing would try some shortcuts again is...far off the mark.

It is right on the mark. Because regulators like EASA could no longer trust the FAA to control Boeing, they had to do their own due diligence. If you point me to the regulation or rule changes that have happened, I will gladly change my mind. As it is IMO the regulators keep pressing Boeing to follow the rules, rather than interpret them to suit Boeing.

Show us that your admitted assumption that Boeing tried to cut some shortcuts again is true and then we will have something to talk about.

Meanwhile while the FARs did not get wholesale changes the way FAA tries to assure they are being followed definitely has changed.

After separate investigations led by Democrats and Republicans documented failures in federal oversight of Boeing, Congress has passed bipartisan legislation meant to prevent the company and Federal Aviation Administration from repeating deadly mistakes that contributed to two 737 Max crashes.

The FAA reform provisions, the subject of months of debate and legislative wrangling, finally cleared the House and Senate as part of the sprawling relief and government funding bill passed overnight Monday. Investigators found the FAA had been far too deferential with the aerospace giant, which was given broad authority over its own safety certification.

Among the provisions designed to rectify spotty oversight are new whistleblower protections for employees of manufacturers such as Boeing, so workers can freely share safety problems they see with the FAA; additional spending, totaling tens of millions per year, for the FAA to recruit and retain engineers and other experts; and new civil penalties if employees at Boeing or other companies interfere with oversight work or fail to disclose all safety-critical information to the FAA, airlines and pilots.

Ref: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

While the FAA would still delegate to Boeing a great deal of the certification work on future aircraft, new provisions aim to ensure the FAA’s safety experts keep a closer eye on how that work proceeds and that Boeing’s cost and schedule targets don’t dominate decision making.

The bill also requires greater disclosure and analysis of safety-critical systems at the outset of the certification process.

And it creates new penalties for supervisors who exert undue pressure on employees raising safety concerns, establishes new whistleblower protections, and sets up safety reporting mechanisms for FAA’s front-line technical staff.

Additionally, the bill authorizes new funding to build up technical expertise at the FAA and to conduct more human factors research into how pilots interact with automated flight control systems.

And it boosts congressional oversight of the FAA, requiring the agency to provide Capitol Hill with reports, briefings and disclosures on how it’s meeting the goals laid out in the bill.

Ref: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... x-crashes/

BEG2IAH wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
If you point me to the regulation or rule changes that have happened, I will gladly change my mind. As it is IMO the regulators keep pressing Boeing to follow the rules, rather than interpret them to suit Boeing.


H.R.8408 - Aircraft Certification Reform and Accountability Act
November 18, 2020

Section that may be of interest:
(b) Amended Type Certificate Report And Rulemaking.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... 8929D1DE49

Also, a nice article on the topic: https://www.flightglobal.com/737-max-tw ... 67.article

Yep. One relevant quote:

The 777X programme’s certification also comes as the FAA implements a broader regulatory overhaul required by a 2020 law that stemmed from the two accidents.

That law seeks to strengthen the FAA’s certification oversight, particularly over aircraft that are derivatives of earlier models – types like the 737 Max and 777X. The FAA cleared the Max under an amended type certificate, and Boeing has been seeking the same certification route for its 777X.

The 2020 law will require applicants of amended certificates to specifically describe how new variants differ from predecessors, and to demonstrate that designs reflect “realistic” pilot response times.

Companies must also disclose “safety critical information”. That includes details about systems that can change an aircraft’s flight profile, and handling characteristics that, without software augmentation, fail to meet FAA standards.

Last edited by Revelation on Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:06 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
If you point me to the regulation or rule changes that have happened, I will gladly change my mind. As it is IMO the regulators keep pressing Boeing to follow the rules, rather than interpret them to suit Boeing.


H.R.8408 - Aircraft Certification Reform and Accountability Act
November 18, 2020

Section that may be of interest:
(b) Amended Type Certificate Report And Rulemaking.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... 8929D1DE49

Also, a nice article on the topic: https://www.flightglobal.com/737-max-tw ... 67.article



Somehow I doubt he will change his biased mind.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:17 am

Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
And there might be technical modifications Boeing is doing.

Might?

Boeing’s latest 777X delay results partly from modifications Boeing is making to the jet’s design, including to actuator controls, so as to meet regulators’ “expectations”.

The company is “making prudent design modifications as necessary”, Boeing chief executive David Calhoun says of the 777X development programme.

Boeing is working on “firmware and hardware changes” involving actuator controls, Calhoun adds, saying the move “reflects expectations of global regulators”.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 51.article

This has been public knowledge for many months now.


Wait, I thought the regulators have not told Boeing what they expect on certification that has caused the delay? So Boeing knows and are working on it and this is causing the delays then? Or as other posters have asserted the regulators are screwing Boeing by not specifically saying what they want? Gotta love this site, one issue is given 3 or 4 different reasons and those reasons are run with and become truth when it is just some random person posting about it.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:28 am

enzo011 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
And there might be technical modifications Boeing is doing.

Might?

Boeing’s latest 777X delay results partly from modifications Boeing is making to the jet’s design, including to actuator controls, so as to meet regulators’ “expectations”.

The company is “making prudent design modifications as necessary”, Boeing chief executive David Calhoun says of the 777X development programme.

Boeing is working on “firmware and hardware changes” involving actuator controls, Calhoun adds, saying the move “reflects expectations of global regulators”.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 51.article

This has been public knowledge for many months now.


Wait, I thought the regulators have not told Boeing what they expect on certification that has caused the delay? So Boeing knows and are working on it and this is causing the delays then? Or as other posters have asserted the regulators are screwing Boeing by not specifically saying what they want? Gotta love this site, one issue is given 3 or 4 different reasons and those reasons are run with and become truth when it is just some random person posting about it.

Boeing knows the recommendation. They are implementing it. That’s what’s causing delays. Calhoun confirmed this again last week. Both FAA and EASA had recommendations on the architecture of the 777X and Boeing is adopting it
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:44 am

Givens the virus pandemonium, the traffics demands remaining low.

Airline don't need new the jets so delayed 777z is no bad thing until the time changes for the better.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:00 pm

I see N779XW is doing some circuits at BYH. Any idea what testing they are doing way out there?
 
Nnaeto87
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:20 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I see N779XW is doing some circuits at BYH. Any idea what testing they are doing way out there?

Brake Testing
 
Western727
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:31 pm

Nnaeto87 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I see N779XW is doing some circuits at BYH. Any idea what testing they are doing way out there?

Brake Testing


Good to know. Why not MWH, though, or someplace closer to BFI/PAE?
Jack @ AUS
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:10 pm

so we now know why NAMS & HIGH ENERGY BRAKE tests and the other significant tests haven't been done {plane isn't ready to begin certification campaign}....makes you wonder what exactly the issue is- is it Boeing not presenting a good product or the regulators applying more pressure?

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-27/
June 27 (Reuters) - The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has told Boeing Co (BA.N) that its planned 777X is not yet ready for a significant certification step and warned it "realistically" will not certify the airplane until mid- to late 2023.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:39 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ification/

This seems to be a serious set back, in a longer article by Dominic Gates from the Sunday Seattle Times. There was an unexpected pitching event (it is not revealed whether is was an up or down pitching), and the FAA does not believe Boeing has adequately understood nor explained it. The basic brains of the flight control is in effect being challenged, and the FAA does not want Boeing to even be discussing putting FAA inspectors aboard the 777X.
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cal764
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:41 pm

Any of you aware of an uncommanded pitch event?

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... ification/

[twoid]The FAA cited a long litany of concerns, including a serious flight control incident during a test flight on Dec. 8, 2020, when the plane experienced an “uncommanded pitch event” — meaning the nose of the aircraft pitched abruptly up or down without input from the pilots.[/twoid]
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texl1649
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:55 pm

Boeing did respond somewhat per the article, but it does sound like a bit of a crap show right now;

Asked about the test flight that experienced the “uncommanded pitch event” in December, Boeing said the plane went on to land safely and that engineers investigated the root cause and have developed a major software update to fix the problem.

In the meantime, until that’s approved, Boeing has given the test pilots instructions on how to avoid the incident recurring so that test flights can continue.

Yet the FAA clearly isn’t satisfied with Boeing’s promise of a software fix.

“After the uncommanded pitch event, the FAA is yet to see how Boeing fully implements all the corrective actions identified by the root cause investigation,” the letter reads.

“Software load dates are continuously sliding and the FAA needs better visibility into the causes of the delays,” it states.

To confirm “the maturity and safety/airworthiness of the aircraft,” the FAA demands comprehensive and documented reviews of the changes resulting from the investigation into the incident, to ensure that a similar problem “will not happen in the future and this is not a systemic issue.”

The FAA separately highlights concern over a critical piece of new avionics on the jet — the Common Core System, a set of shared computing resources critical to the functioning of multiple airplane systems.

Won notes that Galantowicz conceded in a letter to the FAA earlier in May that the CCS has incomplete software and does not meet TIA requirements.

Citing a “lack of data” and the absence of a Preliminary Safety Assessment for the FAA to review, the agency’s letter declares that Boeing hasn’t even met its own process requirements.

Boeing’s CCS “review dates have continuously slid over a year,” the letter notes.

In turning down the 777X for TIA readiness, the FAA also cited a finding that the supplier of the avionics provided “inadequate peer review” in a safety analysis “resulting in inconsistencies … and incorrect reuse of 787 data.”

GE Aviation’s plant in Grand Rapids, Michigan, supplies the CCS, which builds upon the similar common core avionics system it designed for the 787.

GE, which touts the CCS as the “central nervous system and brain” of the airplane, deferred comment to Boeing.

Another problem for the FAA is Boeing’s proposal of late changes to the 777X flight control system.

“Boeing is proposing modifications that will involve firmware and hardware changes to the actuator controls electronics of the Flight Control System,” the FAA states. “Boeing needs to ensure the changes do not introduce new, inadvertent failures modes.”

Other pending modifications to the design of systems around the jet’s horizontal tail or stabilizer, which controls the pitch of the airplane, will change the crew alerts that flag certain system failures.

“Design maturity is in question as design changes are ongoing and potentially significant,” the letter states.

Separately, the letter states in passing that the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has also “not yet agreed on a way forward” with regard to 777X certification.


So they have built/are completing 21 of these (4 flying, but the others have at least rolled out) and they're still designing/changing the flight control system, physically and the software as well? Ugh, c'mon Seattle guys.
 
DMPHL
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:26 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/citing-a-serious-flight-test-incident-and-lack-of-design-maturity-faa-slows-boeing-777x-certification/

This seems to be a serious set back, in a longer article by Dominic Gates from the Sunday Seattle Times. There was an unexpected pitching event (it is not revealed whether is was an up or down pitching), and the FAA does not believe Boeing has adequately understood nor explained it. The basic brains of the flight control is in effect being challenged, and the FAA does not want Boeing to even be discussing putting FAA inspectors aboard the 777X.


Yea it seems from the article that Boeing has said they have a software fix, but there have been some not-insignificant delays deploying it, indicating that they don't really have an actual fix? The FAA wants to see the actual solution, wants to see it implemented and tested, and wants to ensure that it works—and, smartly, not rely on Boeing's assurances/promises that it will fix it—before even talking about the next stages of certification.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:33 pm

Boeing needs to do a much bigger reset on their company culture and restore the engineering legacy of the company. It’s not even about the 777x. That is what it is at this point. It’s about the next jet they design and the decades following.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:11 pm

cal764 wrote:
Any of you aware of an uncommanded pitch event?

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... ification/

[twoid]The FAA cited a long litany of concerns, including a serious flight control incident during a test flight on Dec. 8, 2020, when the plane experienced an “uncommanded pitch event” — meaning the nose of the aircraft pitched abruptly up or down without input from the pilots.[/twoid]


I was aware. We talked about it at the factory for a little bit back in December, then went on Christmas break, came back and everyone had forgotten/ moved on
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:21 pm

Now we have the reason why Boeing has become so quiet.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:09 pm

I feel like this defeats the purpose of flight testing, you flight test to catch these issues and it was caught. I understand the FAA wants to be extra careful and such after the MAX disaster but my goodness.

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