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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:53 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
http://kpae.blogspot.com/

WH003 has done 4 specific fuel consumption flights. So customers will soon know how the aircraft is performing on that end, and with STC trust me we will know.

I am looking to this years dubai airshow to see what happens. If EK keep their order as it is, i'll take that as good news, if not..well..

There's lots of reasons why STC would want to reduce widebody orders, performance is low on the list, IMO.

That’s true. So should we expect a downsizing regardless?

That depends on what contractual rights EK has, and how willing Boeing is to negotiate. We were told by smartplane even before COVID was impacting the industry that Boeing had to renegotiate contracts due to missing the original EIS date, and those contracts would simply increase compensation the later the plane was instead of giving the customers cancellation rights. I would think a miss on performance would yield some compensation but not cancellation rights. We also know SQ was given a large deferment in exchange for a larger order. All kinds of things seem to be possibilities. I'm not sure EK would want to announce bad news before or at the airshow, they'd probably wait several weeks after the airshow if they wanted to drop a bomb.
 
Prost
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:38 pm

I was directly under the flight path of a 777X north of downtown Seattle last week and it was amazing how quiet it is for as large of a plane it is. I’m glad regulations have gotten stringent on noise.
 
Niloko
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:43 pm

Prost wrote:
I was directly under the flight path of a 777X north of downtown Seattle last week and it was amazing how quiet it is for as large of a plane it is. I’m glad regulations have gotten stringent on noise.

It's not that large tho. Only 1 or 2 humans worth of length longer than 77W
 
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caoimhin
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:47 pm

Niloko wrote:
It's not that large tho. Only 1 or 2 humans worth of length longer than 77W


The 77W is, itself, quite a large plane.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:25 pm

caoimhin wrote:
Niloko wrote:
It's not that large tho. Only 1 or 2 humans worth of length longer than 77W


The 77W is, itself, quite a large plane.


and the 779 is now the largest passenger aircraft still in production, with the 748 and A388 production about to totally cease.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:35 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
caoimhin wrote:
Niloko wrote:
It's not that large tho. Only 1 or 2 humans worth of length longer than 77W


The 77W is, itself, quite a large plane.


and the 779 is now the largest passenger aircraft still in production, with the 748 and A388 production about to totally cease.


779 is also the longest passenger aircraft ever built.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
http://kpae.blogspot.com/

WH003 has done 4 specific fuel consumption flights. So customers will soon know how the aircraft is performing on that end, and with STC trust me we will know.

I am looking to this years dubai airshow to see what happens. If EK keep their order as it is, i'll take that as good news, if not..well..

There's lots of reasons why STC would want to reduce widebody orders, performance is low on the list, IMO.


True, but if it falls short of contractual guarantees, Emirates would have leverage to reduce orders with diminished penalties.

I don't think we'll really know with certainty, but if Emirates reduces orders in the near future, that may be a hint the performance is falling short. It is alternatively possible, however, that they have either schedule-based justification for further diminished penalties (although I suspect that has already been renegotiated), or just decided they're going to be so over capacity the best thing to do is pay penalties to reduce their orders.
 
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ER757
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:04 pm

Prost wrote:
I was directly under the flight path of a 777X north of downtown Seattle last week and it was amazing how quiet it is for as large of a plane it is. I’m glad regulations have gotten stringent on noise.

I've noticed that too when they fly over us down in Kent. You see them much more than hear them
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:34 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
True, but if it falls short of contractual guarantees, Emirates would have leverage to reduce orders with diminished penalties.

I don't think we'll really know with certainty, but if Emirates reduces orders in the near future, that may be a hint the performance is falling short. It is alternatively possible, however, that they have either schedule-based justification for further diminished penalties (although I suspect that has already been renegotiated), or just decided they're going to be so over capacity the best thing to do is pay penalties to reduce their orders.

Hard to speculate IMO since we know so little about what is in the contract yet we do know that Boeing did one round of re-negotiations circa 2018/9 when they should have had test stand data for GE9x if not flying testbed data ( ref: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 47-testbed ).
 
Rekoff
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:02 pm

Niloko wrote:
Prost wrote:
I was directly under the flight path of a 777X north of downtown Seattle last week and it was amazing how quiet it is for as large of a plane it is. I’m glad regulations have gotten stringent on noise.

It's not that large tho. Only 1 or 2 humans worth of length longer than 77W


Wouldnt engine size be more relevant to noise then plane size? It has the largest engines ever built.
 
Niloko
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:32 am

ikolkyo wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
caoimhin wrote:

The 77W is, itself, quite a large plane.


and the 779 is now the largest passenger aircraft still in production, with the 748 and A388 production about to totally cease.


779 is also the longest passenger aircraft ever built.

Yeah because the length difference when you get to the longer plane isn't a lot. It's only a 77W replacement too at the end of the day even if it's slightly longer
 
Niloko
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:34 am

Rekoff wrote:
Niloko wrote:
Prost wrote:
I was directly under the flight path of a 777X north of downtown Seattle last week and it was amazing how quiet it is for as large of a plane it is. I’m glad regulations have gotten stringent on noise.

It's not that large tho. Only 1 or 2 humans worth of length longer than 77W


Wouldnt engine size be more relevant to noise then plane size? It has the largest engines ever built.

I think the thrust would be more of a factor than size. Older engines were tiny but the larger and newer engines are quieter.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:18 am

It looks like the flight test becomes more active last week.

Does anyone have any news on that side?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:28 am

Prost wrote:
I was directly under the flight path of a 777X north of downtown Seattle last week and it was amazing how quiet it is for as large of a plane it is. I’m glad regulations have gotten stringent on noise.


Indeed. The 777X, 787, A350 and A330neo are all noticeably quieter than their older sisters when passing overhead.
 
 
xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:35 pm

We haven’t heard anything from Sir Tim Clark regarding the aircraft. Is there any thing happening behind the scenes or is he now satisfied with the progress?
 
xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:36 pm

Dubai Airshow is starting in two months. Any news whether Boeing will be flying a B779 to the show?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:05 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Dubai Airshow is starting in two months. Any news whether Boeing will be flying a B779 to the show?

Nothing yet. I’ve been looking for any signs but nothing yet. I think we might have to wait till late October or early November before we know
 
TrafficCop
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:37 pm

smokeybandit wrote:


Wish this bird would come to ORD and do a De-ice pad fit test!!!!
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:56 am

 
Starfuryt
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:01 pm

Opus99 wrote:


I was about to post that it's about 30-40 minutes from IAH, if any local spotters want to catch it.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:41 pm

BOE002/N779XX currently enroute BOEING FEILD(BFI)-COLORADO SPRINGS(COS)
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:36 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -optimism/

Extensive interview with Mounir but what jumps out with regards to XF is this

“He also dropped a large hint that a freighter model of the forthcoming giant 777X jet will be launched soon. Qatar Airways is one airline known to be interested.

“We have several customers talking to us about … the 777FX,” Mounir said. “Watch this space. Things are gonna happen.””

This freighter competition is very serious. I enjoy seeing both airbus and Boeing competitive like this

I predict some interesting things are going to happen at the Dubai airshow
 
744SPX
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:55 pm

I really hope the freighter is 778 length and not longer. I mean, its already 20' longer than the 772F. Also, better chance for passenger version to be produced if it stays at that length..
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:29 pm

744SPX wrote:
I really hope the freighter is 778 length and not longer. I mean, its already 20' longer than the 772F. Also, better chance for passenger version to be produced if it stays at that length..

I think Boeing is going to go ahead with a longer Fuselage because of the age of e-commerce. But they might not bother with the passenger version of the 8
 
SteelChair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:34 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/in-the-midst-of-unprecedented-crisis-boeing-sales-chief-embraces-optimism/

Extensive interview with Mounir but what jumps out with regards to XF is this

“He also dropped a large hint that a freighter model of the forthcoming giant 777X jet will be launched soon. Qatar Airways is one airline known to be interested.

“We have several customers talking to us about … the 777FX,” Mounir said. “Watch this space. Things are gonna happen.””

This freighter competition is very serious. I enjoy seeing both airbus and Boeing competitive like this

I predict some interesting things are going to happen at the Dubai airshow


It would be cool to see them do a much larger wing fold for the freighter. That would really help the cargo carriers, and perhaps dovetail with a military version.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:03 pm

That means another wing on a program that fights for break even? Not very realistic. A freighter will come but more conventional.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:13 pm

BOE001/N779XW ENROUTE KBFI-KCSM (BURNS FLAT)
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:10 pm

Boeing 777-9 N779XY filed BFI-VCV 12PM - 2PM as BOE3. This is the first visit of N779XY to VCV and only the 2nd visit for the 777-9. I'm out at San Diego for college so I can't make it. :(

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/boe3
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:23 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
Boeing 777-9 N779XY filed BFI-VCV 12PM - 2PM as BOE3. This is the first visit of N779XY to VCV and only the 2nd visit for the 777-9. I'm out at San Diego for college so I can't make it. :(

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/boe3


Movement to Victorville is a good sign that the flight test pace might be picking up and that certification milestones are being met. It takes an army of people to support flight test out of Victorville and the company wouldn't move the airplane down their unless it was starting to get back to testing.
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:30 pm

47 on board BOE003. Just called for push.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:14 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
Boeing 777-9 N779XY filed BFI-VCV 12PM - 2PM as BOE3. This is the first visit of N779XY to VCV and only the 2nd visit for the 777-9. I'm out at San Diego for college so I can't make it. :(

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/boe3


Movement to Victorville is a good sign that the flight test pace might be picking up and that certification milestones are being met. It takes an army of people to support flight test out of Victorville and the company wouldn't move the airplane down their unless it was starting to get back to testing.

Would Boeing run engine performance tests out of VCV?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:42 am

N779XY (WH003) is at VCV for cruise performance testing. I am assuming this is for confirmation of TSFC? NAMs? Etc.

Why do I feel like this information will play a role at this years Dubai airshow

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2021/09/paine- ... 9.html?m=1
 
Max Q
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:14 am

Niloko wrote:
Rekoff wrote:
Niloko wrote:
It's not that large tho. Only 1 or 2 humans worth of length longer than 77W


Wouldnt engine size be more relevant to noise then plane size? It has the largest engines ever built.

I think the thrust would be more of a factor than size. Older engines were tiny but the larger and newer engines are quieter.




Even if the engines made no sound at all you’d be surprised how much noise a large airframe makes moving through the air



A good example was the space shuttle on final approach, despite it having no engines you could definitely hear it !
 
Western727
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:46 pm

Max Q wrote:
Niloko wrote:
Rekoff wrote:

Wouldnt engine size be more relevant to noise then plane size? It has the largest engines ever built.

I think the thrust would be more of a factor than size. Older engines were tiny but the larger and newer engines are quieter.




Even if the engines made no sound at all you’d be surprised how much noise a large airframe makes moving through the air



A good example was the space shuttle on final approach, despite it having no engines you could definitely hear it !


Intriguing. Obviously they didn't fly the final at or above Mach 1, so I'm guessing the relatively-blunt aft end was a significant factor. I also recall it had a power cell or thereabouts running and recall seeing the exhaust on the side of the aft section through a thermal camera. Was that significantly loud, or was it more the orbiter moving through the air on final?
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:33 pm

Western727 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Niloko wrote:
I think the thrust would be more of a factor than size. Older engines were tiny but the larger and newer engines are quieter.




Even if the engines made no sound at all you’d be surprised how much noise a large airframe makes moving through the air



A good example was the space shuttle on final approach, despite it having no engines you could definitely hear it !


Intriguing. Obviously they didn't fly the final at or above Mach 1, so I'm guessing the relatively-blunt aft end was a significant factor. I also recall it had a power cell or thereabouts running and recall seeing the exhaust on the side of the aft section through a thermal camera. Was that significantly loud, or was it more the orbiter moving through the air on final?


Noise testing typically is done at Glasgow MT. See here:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2020-08-24/latest-boeing-ecodemonstrator-flies-montana-trials

A friend of mine who is in this line of work says that noise testing is the most technically challenging of the flying done by flight test pilots because everything has to be perfect--alignment with the microphones, wings level, speed, and altitude. The ambient conditions have to be perfect as well as still air is required.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:03 pm

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-10-05/

Clark now wants to know exactly when 777X is coming

“In May Clark said that Emirates would refuse delivery of 777X jets that did not meet contractual agreements. On Tuesday he said he would like industry contracts to be altered to make manufacturers more liable for the knock-on effects of delays.“

Clark said 787 to 777X switch will depend mostly on Boeing
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:04 pm

https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/airc ... transition

Very nice read for those who have questions on 777/X production line.

Article confirms that Boeing still actually offers the 300ER
 
xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:27 pm

So according to Tim Clark’s thoughts about the B778, it seems that the B778 might not be manufactured by Boeing!
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:28 pm

xwb777 wrote:
So according to Tim Clark’s thoughts about the B778, it seems that the B778 might not be manufactured by Boeing!

I personally don’t think it will either. The freighter 100%. The passenger ? Nope
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:51 pm

xwb777 wrote:
So according to Tim Clark’s thoughts about the B778, it seems that the B778 might not be manufactured by Boeing!

IMO there's no need for explanation point, it's been suggested countless times here on a.net, and as you point out, it might not even happen.

Opus99 wrote:
https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/aircraft-propulsion/boeing-works-smooth-777x-production-transition

Very nice read for those who have questions on 777/X production line.

Article confirms that Boeing still actually offers the 300ER

The most interesting bit to me was the 2nd line, the 777X LIRP line, was shut down in Q1 and both 77F and 779 are coming off the same line and have been ever since then.

The most germane part regarding the 77W:

We are still investing in the metal wing and want to keep building that because we’re selling a lot of them right now, but the overall effort is really focused on the 777-9,” Zaback adds. Although the 777-300ER is still offered by Boeing, the stalwart passenger version—which proved to be a popular successor to the 747-400—appears to have run its course. The last -300ER, destined for Russian airline Aeroflot, was quietly rolled out in April and delivered without fanfare on Sept. 30.

Of course no one expects any more 77W orders. To me the news is that they know they will be making metal wing 77Fs for quite a while so need to keep investing in the infrastructure that now produces both 77F and 779. TFA says they have gotten 30 new 77F orders since the start of this year so it seems that will keep them busy since they're only building at rate 2 right now.

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/emirates-pushes-boeing-more-clarity-777x-deliveries-2021-10-05/

Clark now wants to know exactly when 777X is coming

“In May Clark said that Emirates would refuse delivery of 777X jets that did not meet contractual agreements. On Tuesday he said he would like industry contracts to be altered to make manufacturers more liable for the knock-on effects of delays.“

Clark said 787 to 777X switch will depend mostly on Boeing

Looks like STC needs to subscribe to AvWeek, the answer was given there...

“All the airlines have told us they’re going to recover in 2024, so we will start delivering at the end of 2023,” Zaback says. “By then, we will be looking at 4-5 deliveries per month starting right away in 2024.

Zaback later repeats the idea that the airlines don't want the planes any sooner then end of 2023 and says changes needed to satisfy FAA and EASA are "baked in to the plan".
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:33 pm

The plan? What plan? When did Boeing state that their plan was to deliver in 2024?? Maybe now, but never before. Original so called plan was 2019...slipped to 2020.

We'll see what actually is the delivery of the 1st 779. Let's hope it's not a repeat of the 787 fiasco. FFS!!
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:38 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
The plan? What plan? When did Boeing state that their plan was to deliver in 2024?? Maybe now, but never before. Original so called plan was 2019...slipped to 2020.

We'll see what actually is the delivery of the 1st 779. Let's hope it's not a repeat of the 787 fiasco. FFS!!

Read that again my friend.

He says they plan to start at the end of 2023

That plan was announced about 9 months ago
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:44 pm

No dispute...just that the original "plan" was a lot sooner than 2024. Let's see...another 3yrs until then.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:54 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
No dispute...just that the original "plan" was a lot sooner than 2024. Let's see...another 3yrs until then.


January 2024 is much closer to two years away than three years.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:54 am

scbriml wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
No dispute...just that the original "plan" was a lot sooner than 2024. Let's see...another 3yrs until then.


January 2024 is much closer to two years away than three years.


Oh well, call me a pessimist then. Could be they do indeed start deliveries by Jan 2024. All depends on FAA certification.
 
Western727
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:04 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
No dispute...just that the original "plan" was a lot sooner than 2024. Let's see...another 3yrs until then.


January 2024 is much closer to two years away than three years.


Oh well, call me a pessimist then. Could be they do indeed start deliveries by Jan 2024. All depends on FAA certification.


It feels like the 777X might hold the record for the longest time between first flight and first delivery. First flight was in January 2020, so it looks like 4+ years.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:13 pm

Western727 wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

January 2024 is much closer to two years away than three years.


Oh well, call me a pessimist then. Could be they do indeed start deliveries by Jan 2024. All depends on FAA certification.


It feels like the 777X might hold the record for the longest time between first flight and first delivery. First flight was in January 2020, so it looks like 4+ years.

Oh there have been longer. The Comac 919 first flew in 2017, first delivery is not expected until end of the year at earliest. The ARJ21 first flew in 2008 and wasn’t delivered until 2016. The Irkut MC-21 first flew in 2017 but first delivery isn’t expected until 2022 or 2023.
 
Western727
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:16 pm

Polot wrote:
Western727 wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:

Oh well, call me a pessimist then. Could be they do indeed start deliveries by Jan 2024. All depends on FAA certification.


It feels like the 777X might hold the record for the longest time between first flight and first delivery. First flight was in January 2020, so it looks like 4+ years.

Oh there have been longer. The Comac 919 first flew in 2017, first delivery is not expected until end of the year at earliest. The ARJ21 first flew in 2008 and wasn’t delivered until 2016. The Irkut MC-21 first flew in 2017 but first delivery isn’t expected until 2022 or 2023.


Noted, thanks. What of the established/experienced manufacturers, like DC/MD, Boeing, Airbus/Bombardier and Embrarer, though?
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:18 pm

Western727 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Western727 wrote:

It feels like the 777X might hold the record for the longest time between first flight and first delivery. First flight was in January 2020, so it looks like 4+ years.

Oh there have been longer. The Comac 919 first flew in 2017, first delivery is not expected until end of the year at earliest. The ARJ21 first flew in 2008 and wasn’t delivered until 2016. The Irkut MC-21 first flew in 2017 but first delivery isn’t expected until 2022 or 2023.


Noted, thanks. What of the established/experienced manufacturers, like DC/MD, Boeing, Airbus/Bombardier and Embrarer, though?

Off the top of my head I think the C series was longest, with about 3 years between first flight and EIS.

Why things are delayed also matters though if using first flight as starting point however. I.e does the reason for the delays impact first flight (like with 787) or not, or if they were even around for first flight.

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