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Opus99
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

JeremyB wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

Saw this on Jon Ostrowers page. If you zoom in you see gross weight at 516,600 pounds and fuel at 116,600 pounds does that put empty weight at 400,000 pounds? So 180 tonnes?

Maybe someone can do the calculations for us I’m not sure

Around 181,4 tonnes if I did my math correctly, but that is with all the test equipment, etc on board I think?

Yes it is

mig17
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...

Opus99
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

mig17 wrote:
So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...

Pretty much in line with what we’ve known

JonesNL
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Opus99 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...

Pretty much in line with what we’ve known

Probably the reason for Freds change of tune. His original calculations were based on 164t OEW if I recall correctly. 20t does a lot for the fuel burn.
Based on earlier comments the OEW of A35k is 50t lighter. That’s a lot of extra weight…

Opus99
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

JonesNL wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...

Pretty much in line with what we’ve known

Probably the reason for Freds change of tune. His original calculations were based on 164t OEW if I recall correctly. 20t does a lot for the fuel burn.
Based on earlier comments the OEW of A35k is 50t lighter. That’s a lot of extra weight…

No. Last year it was 182T

viewtopic.php?t=1452269&start=50

Read this thread. He had it at 182 when he said he even expects it to be better. How can he have it at 164. I’ve never seen him say 164

FluidFlow
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Opus99 wrote:

Lufthansa says the 777X is 15% more efficient than the 300ER? I assume this means per trip?

Can someone work out what that means per seat?

Hard to say what they use as an initial data set. As LH does not operate the 77W we could take LX's 77Ws as a reference. Now they do not have J/Y+ yet but I guess the comment only makes sense if we compare todays seating with what is possible.

As of now the 77W seats: F8 C62 Y270.

The question is, what seats would you add and do we fit 20 or 30 more Y seats in? But if we add 30 additional Y seats the capacity goes from 340 to 370 seats, an increase of 8.8%.
That leaves about 6-7% in efficiency gain left. So roughly the 777X would transport 8-9% more pax and burns 6-7% less fuel for a total efficiency gain of 15% over the 77W.

But this is not really accurate I guess.

JonesNL
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Opus99 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Pretty much in line with what we’ve known

Probably the reason for Freds change of tune. His original calculations were based on 164t OEW if I recall correctly. 20t does a lot for the fuel burn.
Based on earlier comments the OEW of A35k is 50t lighter. That’s a lot of extra weight…

No. Last year it was 182T

viewtopic.php?t=1452269&start=50

Read this thread. He had it at 182 when he said he even expects it to be better. How can he have it at 164. I’ve never seen him say 164

My apologies. You are right, I got confused by the 167t OWE in his post #63 which is for the 777W.

Noshow
Posts: 2952
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

As LH does not operate the 77W we could take LX's 77Ws as a reference.

Lufthansa DOES operate the 777-300ER within their SWISS unit (fully integrated into LH group) and the 777 Freighter at LH Cargo. So LH Group operates and knows the performance and real world numbers.

FluidFlow
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Noshow wrote:
As LH does not operate the 77W we could take LX's 77Ws as a reference.

Lufthansa DOES operate the 777-300ER within their SWISS unit (fully integrated into LH group) and the 777 Freighter at LH Cargo. So LH Group operates and knows the performance and real world numbers.

Thats what I said, LH = Lufthansa, LX = Swiss.

Noshow
Posts: 2952
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

SWISS is a division of Lufthansa not a separate airline. SWISS fleet decisions are made by Lufthansa. This is why Lufthansa operates and knows the 777-300ER inside out and reordered.

Polot
Posts: 12649
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Noshow wrote:
SWISS is a division of Lufthansa not a separate airline. SWISS fleet decisions are made by Lufthansa. This is why Lufthansa operates and knows the 777-300ER inside out and reordered.

Swiss is technically a separate airline owned by the same parent company as Lufthansa (LH Group), it is not a division of Lufthansa Airlines like Air Dolomiti (which is wholly owned by Lufthansa, not the LH Group) or Edelweiss is for LX (Edelweiss is wholly owned by LX, not the LH Group).

But your point is correct in that Lufthansa has all the information it needs about the 77W from Swiss-that information would not be shielded from them.

Noshow
Posts: 2952
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

SWISS is some integrated Lufthansa division not a separate airline owned by the same parent. They call it matrix organization.

Stitch
Posts: 27741
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

JonesNL wrote:
My apologies. You are right, I got confused by the 167t OWE in his post #63 which is for the 777W.

A 164,000kg OEW was claimed by Aspire Aviation "at 406 seats for a 3-class (Business / Economy Plus / Economy) Revision E airframe", but most everyone laughed at it.

185,000 to 190,000 kilograms has been the generally-accepted OEW for a revenue frame, which has been reported by sources including Boeing themselves, Leeham.net and Daniel Tsang.

texl1649
Posts: 1983
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

So I saw a tweet (but can’t find it now) from a spotter where two new unpainted 779’s are on the tarmac at KPAE I think. Are these to join the flight test program? They have 4 flying now (1 semi-scrapped?) and 2 more at least produced as I understand it.

Also, did the FAA agree to advance to have their staff flying onboard yet, or is that still pending? I haven’t seen a substantial update since this Dominic Gates July one (dealing with the May letter).

Stitch
Posts: 27741
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

texl1649 wrote:
So I saw a tweet (but can’t find it now) from a spotter where two new unpainted 779’s are on the tarmac at KPAE I think. Are these to join the flight test program? They have 4 flying now (1 semi-scrapped?) and 2 more at least produced as I understand it.

Boeing is still in LIRP for the 777X so these are likely passenger frames.

And define "semi-scrapped"? Are you referring to the frame that was used to test Limit and Ultimate Load? If so, that frame was never meant for anything but that suite of tests and was not part of the formal production tranche.

texl1649 wrote:
Also, did the FAA agree to advance to have their staff flying onboard yet, or is that still pending? I haven’t seen a substantial update since this Dominic Gates July one (dealing with the May letter).

There have been no reports that the FAA is yet willing to grant Boeing TIA for the 777X.

georgiabill
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?

mig17
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

georgiabill wrote:
How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?

At 352t MTOW, the 777-9 is given with a design range of 7285nm. 426pax <=> 45t. And OEW is around 184t. So the design fuel onboard is 352-184-45=123t.
LHR-SYD is what, 9300nm? So fuel for that would be 123*9300/7285=157t and the payload would be 352-184-157=11t.
To carry 300 pax <=> 32t, the 777-9 would need a 32-11=21t MTOW bump. Making the MTOW 373t ...

FluidFlow
Posts: 1210
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

mig17 wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?

At 352t MTOW, the 777-9 is given with a design range of 7285nm. 426pax <=> 45t. And OEW is around 184t. So the design fuel onboard is 352-184-45=123t.
LHR-SYD is what, 9300nm? So fuel for that would be 123*9300/7285=157t and the payload would be 352-184-157=11t.
To carry 300 pax <=> 32t, the 777-9 would need a 32-11=21t MTOW bump. Making the MTOW 373t ...

That would be nearly impossible with the gear of the 777. It would need an additional main gear like the 340. Pavement loading would be very high otherwise.

JohanTally
Posts: 531
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

mig17 wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?

At 352t MTOW, the 777-9 is given with a design range of 7285nm. 426pax <=> 45t. And OEW is around 184t. So the design fuel onboard is 352-184-45=123t.
LHR-SYD is what, 9300nm? So fuel for that would be 123*9300/7285=157t and the payload would be 352-184-157=11t.
To carry 300 pax <=> 32t, the 777-9 would need a 32-11=21t MTOW bump. Making the MTOW 373t ...

The standard range after certification should far surpass that of the 77W and the OEW may end up closer to 180t. When the A35K was certified it was advertised at 7950nm
and now is at 8700nm which was helped by the MTOW bump but it was also under advertised publicly during testing.

Opus99
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

https://youtu.be/qGwkzLVSG0E

Tim Clark speaks about the 777X delays. Just basically that the issue is just about when the aircraft is going to arrive.

This was at the Dubai airshow

He does say the aircraft “will always be a very very good aircraft for those airlines that choose to use it”

Pythagoras
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:33 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

https://youtu.be/ql-ceZ1O9sE

Sam Chui's walk-through of the static display at the Dubai Airshow. Jon Ostrower makes a cameo appearance. Boeing Flight Test pilot Heather Ross describes the changes to the flight deck. There is also discussion of some of the flight test equipment and flight test progress to-date.

Western727
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Opus99 wrote:
https://youtu.be/qGwkzLVSG0E

Tim Clark speaks about the 777X delays. Just basically that the issue is just about when the aircraft is going to arrive.

This was at the Dubai airshow

He does say the aircraft “will always be a very very good aircraft for those airlines that choose to use it”

I was in the UAE last week visiting my expat sister and her family, and at just about every place EK aircraft models were sold, the EK exhibition at Expo 2020 included, the 779 was sold alongside their 77W and 380 models. As a side note, the folding wingtip has the wavy UAE flag on it, like on EK's vertical stabilizers, and I thought that looked cool.

DenverTed
Posts: 824
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.

StTim
Posts: 3921
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

So between 5 and 10% of the total current order book have already been built.

trex8
Posts: 5748
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

if something comes up or the FAA demands significant changes for certification will these be like the 787 teens???

Stitch
Posts: 27741
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

trex8 wrote:
if something comes up or the FAA demands significant changes for certification will these be like the 787 teens???

What made the "terrible teens" so terrible was they were assembled not-insignificantly out of compliance so in addition to re-work needed to address certification changes, there was also re-work needed to bring them into compliance with the approved design. So far, we have not heard of such compliance issues on the 777X outside of a claim there may be one with the GE9X, but that would be a powerplant issue, not an airframe issue.

Opus99
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

Revelation
Posts: 27388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Opus99 wrote:

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872

Western727
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872

Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?

ben7x
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:58 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Western727 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872

Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?

The wing is completely new designed. Maybe four thinner flap track fairings are aerodynamically better than two bigger ones. Or maybe it’s because of the size of the wings? I could imagine the flaps got bigger too (as got the wing) so it’s possible that two flap track fairings aren’t strong enough to move the flaps. etc…

The A321 also got two (?) more flap track fairings but I don’t know exactly why. Maybe the reason is quite similar.

Western727
Posts: 2151
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

ben7x wrote:
Western727 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872

Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?

The wing is completely new designed. Maybe four thinner flap track fairings are aerodynamically better than two bigger ones. Or maybe it’s because of the size of the wings? I could imagine the flaps got bigger too (as got the wing) so it’s possible that two flap track fairings aren’t strong enough to move the flaps. etc…

The A321 also got two (?) more flap track fairings but I don’t know exactly why. Maybe the reason is quite similar.

I'm liking your logic behind the 77X's redesign and look forward to more insight.

The 321 got two additional FT fairings to accommodate the additional TE flap slot to generate the additional lift that was needed for its heavier weight vs the 319/320 as I understand it.

Spetsnaz55
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:38 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Western727 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872

Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?

2 separate flaps for sure versus 1 big one on the 777w.

Why they did that I'm not sure though. Must be some benefit to it

StTim
Posts: 3921
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

More intelligent load shedding?

JayinKitsap
Posts: 2748
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Could be that there are no control surfaces or even lights outboard of the wing hinge. No flaps in the outer portion would require more flap for the balance of the wing.

TC957
Posts: 4261
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

DenverTed wrote:
How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.

Our esteemed member VCVspotter has kindly done a spreadsheet of the 777-9's buit and their status.

RobK
Posts: 4089
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

OK, nothing changed there from what can be seen.

Anyone know what's so special about Clinton Sherman airfield? Boeing has had a selection of B3XM and B779s testing from there for quite some time now. Is there no available airfield closer to Seattle? What's wrong with Glasgow Industrial ?

Stitch
Posts: 27741
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

RobK wrote:
Anyone know what's so special about Clinton Sherman airfield? Boeing has had a selection of B3XM and B779s testing from there for quite some time now. Is there no available airfield closer to Seattle? What's wrong with Glasgow Industrial ?

As an FAA Spaceport, it does have a 152 mile long by 50 mile wide space flight corridor that is unrestricted airspace so maybe Boeing is using that to perform overland flight testing?

EDIT: In fact this seems to be the case. From the Airpark website:

"Boeing Commercial Aircraft conducts a comprehensive series of tests and conditions, on the ground and in the air, to demonstrate the safety and reliability of the design of its aircraft. Boeing likes Clinton-Sherman Airport (CSM) for its long, wide runway and continues to utilize the facility for aircraft testing including the newest wide-body version of its largest aircraft, the 777-9, which arrived in February."

RobK
Posts: 4089
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Interesting, thanks Chris.

kaitak744
Posts: 2241
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

TC957 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.

Our esteemed member VCVspotter has kindly done a spreadsheet of the 777-9's buit and their status.

Anyone know which ones have the 4-door config vs. the 5-door config?

So far, it looks like this from the photos:

Emirates - 4 door & 5 door
Qatar - 4 door
ANA - 4 door
Lufthansa - 5 door

A359bw
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:00 am

### Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

kaitak744 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.

Our esteemed member VCVspotter has kindly done a spreadsheet of the 777-9's buit and their status.

Anyone know which ones have the 4-door config vs. the 5-door config?

So far, it looks like this from the photos:

Emirates - 4 door & 5 door
Qatar - 4 door
ANA - 4 door
Lufthansa - 5 door

Lufthansa gets also both variants

Spetsnaz55
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:38 am

### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

I just Sat in the captains seat of N779xz and it was awesome. Crazy experience

qf789
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 12164
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### Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Please continue discussion in Boeing 777X Production/Testing Thread - 2022

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468443

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