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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:11 pm

JeremyB wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CWgHeC6pPuG/?utm_medium=copy_link

Saw this on Jon Ostrowers page. If you zoom in you see gross weight at 516,600 pounds and fuel at 116,600 pounds does that put empty weight at 400,000 pounds? So 180 tonnes?

Maybe someone can do the calculations for us I’m not sure


Around 181,4 tonnes if I did my math correctly, but that is with all the test equipment, etc on board I think?

Yes it is
 
mig17
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:05 pm

So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:42 pm

mig17 wrote:
So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...

Pretty much in line with what we’ve known
 
JonesNL
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:41 am

Opus99 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...

Pretty much in line with what we’ve known


Probably the reason for Freds change of tune. His original calculations were based on 164t OEW if I recall correctly. 20t does a lot for the fuel burn.
Based on earlier comments the OEW of A35k is 50t lighter. That’s a lot of extra weight…
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:58 am

JonesNL wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
mig17 wrote:
So 181,4t minus test equipment plus 400+ seat cabin, that will be close to the prediction of an OEW of 184 +/-2 t ...

Pretty much in line with what we’ve known


Probably the reason for Freds change of tune. His original calculations were based on 164t OEW if I recall correctly. 20t does a lot for the fuel burn.
Based on earlier comments the OEW of A35k is 50t lighter. That’s a lot of extra weight…

No. Last year it was 182T

viewtopic.php?t=1452269&start=50

Read this thread. He had it at 182 when he said he even expects it to be better. How can he have it at 164. I’ve never seen him say 164
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:06 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://instagram.com/stories/lufthansaviews/2710604958539989146?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&utm_medium=copy_link

Lufthansa says the 777X is 15% more efficient than the 300ER? I assume this means per trip?

Can someone work out what that means per seat?


Hard to say what they use as an initial data set. As LH does not operate the 77W we could take LX's 77Ws as a reference. Now they do not have J/Y+ yet but I guess the comment only makes sense if we compare todays seating with what is possible.

As of now the 77W seats: F8 C62 Y270.

The question is, what seats would you add and do we fit 20 or 30 more Y seats in? But if we add 30 additional Y seats the capacity goes from 340 to 370 seats, an increase of 8.8%.
That leaves about 6-7% in efficiency gain left. So roughly the 777X would transport 8-9% more pax and burns 6-7% less fuel for a total efficiency gain of 15% over the 77W.

But this is not really accurate I guess.
 
JonesNL
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:00 am

Opus99 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Pretty much in line with what we’ve known


Probably the reason for Freds change of tune. His original calculations were based on 164t OEW if I recall correctly. 20t does a lot for the fuel burn.
Based on earlier comments the OEW of A35k is 50t lighter. That’s a lot of extra weight…

No. Last year it was 182T

viewtopic.php?t=1452269&start=50

Read this thread. He had it at 182 when he said he even expects it to be better. How can he have it at 164. I’ve never seen him say 164


My apologies. You are right, I got confused by the 167t OWE in his post #63 which is for the 777W.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:24 am

As LH does not operate the 77W we could take LX's 77Ws as a reference.


Lufthansa DOES operate the 777-300ER within their SWISS unit (fully integrated into LH group) and the 777 Freighter at LH Cargo. So LH Group operates and knows the performance and real world numbers.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:22 pm

Noshow wrote:
As LH does not operate the 77W we could take LX's 77Ws as a reference.


Lufthansa DOES operate the 777-300ER within their SWISS unit (fully integrated into LH group) and the 777 Freighter at LH Cargo. So LH Group operates and knows the performance and real world numbers.


Thats what I said, LH = Lufthansa, LX = Swiss.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:32 pm

SWISS is a division of Lufthansa not a separate airline. SWISS fleet decisions are made by Lufthansa. This is why Lufthansa operates and knows the 777-300ER inside out and reordered.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:47 pm

Noshow wrote:
SWISS is a division of Lufthansa not a separate airline. SWISS fleet decisions are made by Lufthansa. This is why Lufthansa operates and knows the 777-300ER inside out and reordered.

Swiss is technically a separate airline owned by the same parent company as Lufthansa (LH Group), it is not a division of Lufthansa Airlines like Air Dolomiti (which is wholly owned by Lufthansa, not the LH Group) or Edelweiss is for LX (Edelweiss is wholly owned by LX, not the LH Group).

But your point is correct in that Lufthansa has all the information it needs about the 77W from Swiss-that information would not be shielded from them.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:55 pm

SWISS is some integrated Lufthansa division not a separate airline owned by the same parent. They call it matrix organization.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:20 pm

JonesNL wrote:
My apologies. You are right, I got confused by the 167t OWE in his post #63 which is for the 777W.


A 164,000kg OEW was claimed by Aspire Aviation "at 406 seats for a 3-class (Business / Economy Plus / Economy) Revision E airframe", but most everyone laughed at it.

185,000 to 190,000 kilograms has been the generally-accepted OEW for a revenue frame, which has been reported by sources including Boeing themselves, Leeham.net and Daniel Tsang.
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:38 pm

So I saw a tweet (but can’t find it now) from a spotter where two new unpainted 779’s are on the tarmac at KPAE I think. Are these to join the flight test program? They have 4 flying now (1 semi-scrapped?) and 2 more at least produced as I understand it.

Also, did the FAA agree to advance to have their staff flying onboard yet, or is that still pending? I haven’t seen a substantial update since this Dominic Gates July one (dealing with the May letter).

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ification/
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:59 pm

texl1649 wrote:
So I saw a tweet (but can’t find it now) from a spotter where two new unpainted 779’s are on the tarmac at KPAE I think. Are these to join the flight test program? They have 4 flying now (1 semi-scrapped?) and 2 more at least produced as I understand it.


Boeing is still in LIRP for the 777X so these are likely passenger frames.

And define "semi-scrapped"? Are you referring to the frame that was used to test Limit and Ultimate Load? If so, that frame was never meant for anything but that suite of tests and was not part of the formal production tranche.


texl1649 wrote:
Also, did the FAA agree to advance to have their staff flying onboard yet, or is that still pending? I haven’t seen a substantial update since this Dominic Gates July one (dealing with the May letter).


There have been no reports that the FAA is yet willing to grant Boeing TIA for the 777X.
 
georgiabill
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:59 pm

How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?
 
mig17
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:12 pm

georgiabill wrote:
How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?

At 352t MTOW, the 777-9 is given with a design range of 7285nm. 426pax <=> 45t. And OEW is around 184t. So the design fuel onboard is 352-184-45=123t.
LHR-SYD is what, 9300nm? So fuel for that would be 123*9300/7285=157t and the payload would be 352-184-157=11t.
To carry 300 pax <=> 32t, the 777-9 would need a 32-11=21t MTOW bump. Making the MTOW 373t ...
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:12 am

mig17 wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?

At 352t MTOW, the 777-9 is given with a design range of 7285nm. 426pax <=> 45t. And OEW is around 184t. So the design fuel onboard is 352-184-45=123t.
LHR-SYD is what, 9300nm? So fuel for that would be 123*9300/7285=157t and the payload would be 352-184-157=11t.
To carry 300 pax <=> 32t, the 777-9 would need a 32-11=21t MTOW bump. Making the MTOW 373t ...


That would be nearly impossible with the gear of the 777. It would need an additional main gear like the 340. Pavement loading would be very high otherwise.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:35 am

mig17 wrote:
georgiabill wrote:
How much of MTOW gain would be needed for the 779 to operate LHR-SYD-LHR non stop?

At 352t MTOW, the 777-9 is given with a design range of 7285nm. 426pax <=> 45t. And OEW is around 184t. So the design fuel onboard is 352-184-45=123t.
LHR-SYD is what, 9300nm? So fuel for that would be 123*9300/7285=157t and the payload would be 352-184-157=11t.
To carry 300 pax <=> 32t, the 777-9 would need a 32-11=21t MTOW bump. Making the MTOW 373t ...

The standard range after certification should far surpass that of the 77W and the OEW may end up closer to 180t. When the A35K was certified it was advertised at 7950nm
and now is at 8700nm which was helped by the MTOW bump but it was also under advertised publicly during testing.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:33 pm

https://youtu.be/qGwkzLVSG0E

Tim Clark speaks about the 777X delays. Just basically that the issue is just about when the aircraft is going to arrive.

This was at the Dubai airshow

He does say the aircraft “will always be a very very good aircraft for those airlines that choose to use it”
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:16 pm

https://youtu.be/ql-ceZ1O9sE

Sam Chui's walk-through of the static display at the Dubai Airshow. Jon Ostrower makes a cameo appearance. Boeing Flight Test pilot Heather Ross describes the changes to the flight deck. There is also discussion of some of the flight test equipment and flight test progress to-date.
 
Western727
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:48 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://youtu.be/qGwkzLVSG0E

Tim Clark speaks about the 777X delays. Just basically that the issue is just about when the aircraft is going to arrive.

This was at the Dubai airshow

He does say the aircraft “will always be a very very good aircraft for those airlines that choose to use it”


I was in the UAE last week visiting my expat sister and her family, and at just about every place EK aircraft models were sold, the EK exhibition at Expo 2020 included, the 779 was sold alongside their 77W and 380 models. As a side note, the folding wingtip has the wavy UAE flag on it, like on EK's vertical stabilizers, and I thought that looked cool.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:35 pm

How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:22 am

So between 5 and 10% of the total current order book have already been built.
 
trex8
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:28 am

if something comes up or the FAA demands significant changes for certification will these be like the 787 teens???
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:44 pm

trex8 wrote:
if something comes up or the FAA demands significant changes for certification will these be like the 787 teens???


What made the "terrible teens" so terrible was they were assembled not-insignificantly out of compliance so in addition to re-work needed to address certification changes, there was also re-work needed to bring them into compliance with the approved design. So far, we have not heard of such compliance issues on the 777X outside of a claim there may be one with the GE9X, but that would be a powerplant issue, not an airframe issue.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:45 am

https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 15040?s=21

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:54 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/1470955251373015040?s=21

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Image

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872
 
Western727
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/1470955251373015040?s=21

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Image

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872


Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?
 
ben7x
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:58 pm

Western727 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/1470955251373015040?s=21

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Image

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872


Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?


The wing is completely new designed. Maybe four thinner flap track fairings are aerodynamically better than two bigger ones. Or maybe it’s because of the size of the wings? I could imagine the flaps got bigger too (as got the wing) so it’s possible that two flap track fairings aren’t strong enough to move the flaps. etc…

The A321 also got two (?) more flap track fairings but I don’t know exactly why. Maybe the reason is quite similar.
 
Western727
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:03 pm

ben7x wrote:
Western727 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Image

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872


Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?


The wing is completely new designed. Maybe four thinner flap track fairings are aerodynamically better than two bigger ones. Or maybe it’s because of the size of the wings? I could imagine the flaps got bigger too (as got the wing) so it’s possible that two flap track fairings aren’t strong enough to move the flaps. etc…

The A321 also got two (?) more flap track fairings but I don’t know exactly why. Maybe the reason is quite similar.


I'm liking your logic behind the 77X's redesign and look forward to more insight.

The 321 got two additional FT fairings to accommodate the additional TE flap slot to generate the additional lift that was needed for its heavier weight vs the 319/320 as I understand it.
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:24 pm

Western727 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/1470955251373015040?s=21

Wing view of the 777X when extended. Looks great and very long

That Twitter handle has some good stuff.

Can you imagine what a 70s-era 747 pilot would think of the 748 alongside the 779 or a 779 in the pattern?

Image

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 7437003779
Ref: https://twitter.com/b777xlovers/status/ ... 0949583872


Thanks, Revelation, for pointing that out; I hadn't followed the account until now. As well, thanks for pasting these two images. Wow!

Q, though: why do the outboard TE flaps have four flap track fairings (for seemingly two separate sets of flaps)? I flew on a 77W DXB-IAH in row 38 a couple of weeks ago and as a result became intimately aware once again of the 77W's two flap track fairings outboard of the engine. Why the change in design from one set of outboard TE flaps to two?


2 separate flaps for sure versus 1 big one on the 777w.

Why they did that I'm not sure though. Must be some benefit to it
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:28 pm

More intelligent load shedding?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:40 pm

Could be that there are no control surfaces or even lights outboard of the wing hinge. No flaps in the outer portion would require more flap for the balance of the wing.
 
TC957
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:13 pm

DenverTed wrote:
How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.

Our esteemed member VCVspotter has kindly done a spreadsheet of the 777-9's buit and their status.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =219394813
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:31 pm

OK, nothing changed there from what can be seen.

Anyone know what's so special about Clinton Sherman airfield? Boeing has had a selection of B3XM and B779s testing from there for quite some time now. Is there no available airfield closer to Seattle? What's wrong with Glasgow Industrial ?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:05 pm

RobK wrote:
Anyone know what's so special about Clinton Sherman airfield? Boeing has had a selection of B3XM and B779s testing from there for quite some time now. Is there no available airfield closer to Seattle? What's wrong with Glasgow Industrial ?


As an FAA Spaceport, it does have a 152 mile long by 50 mile wide space flight corridor that is unrestricted airspace so maybe Boeing is using that to perform overland flight testing?

EDIT: In fact this seems to be the case. From the Airpark website:

"Boeing Commercial Aircraft conducts a comprehensive series of tests and conditions, on the ground and in the air, to demonstrate the safety and reliability of the design of its aircraft. Boeing likes Clinton-Sherman Airport (CSM) for its long, wide runway and continues to utilize the facility for aircraft testing including the newest wide-body version of its largest aircraft, the 777-9, which arrived in February."
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:00 pm

Interesting, thanks Chris.
 
kaitak744
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:54 pm

TC957 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.

Our esteemed member VCVspotter has kindly done a spreadsheet of the 777-9's buit and their status.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =219394813


Anyone know which ones have the 4-door config vs. the 5-door config?

So far, it looks like this from the photos:

Emirates - 4 door & 5 door
Qatar - 4 door
ANA - 4 door
Lufthansa - 5 door
 
A359bw
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Re: Boeing 777 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:31 am

kaitak744 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
How many 777-9s have they built? Flying out of PAE, I saw nine green ones lined up tip to tail, at night in the fog is an impressive sight. Then there are others parked around various spots on the airfield.

Our esteemed member VCVspotter has kindly done a spreadsheet of the 777-9's buit and their status.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =219394813


Anyone know which ones have the 4-door config vs. the 5-door config?

So far, it looks like this from the photos:

Emirates - 4 door & 5 door
Qatar - 4 door
ANA - 4 door
Lufthansa - 5 door


Lufthansa gets also both variants
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:20 am

I just Sat in the captains seat of N779xz and it was awesome. Crazy experience
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:50 pm

Please continue discussion in Boeing 777X Production/Testing Thread - 2022

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468443

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