kindeham wrote:

Not sure when it happened - seems we all missed it, but Air Canada resumes Toronto with 2x daily on October 31st.

I don’t think that’s firm. They had/have a bunch of stations they pushed to Oct 31 a few months ago.

kindeham wrote:

Unless I missed something, IND now has service to virtually every airport in Florida worth mentioning. The next two up in order of size are Tallahassee and Daytona Beach. There is no market for Tallahassee - however, if Allegiant ever picks up Daytona Beach I can see full planes headed down to skip the drive from Orlando.

ibthebigd wrote:

Allegiant just announced MLB in Melbourne Florida as a destination but NOT IND so MLB could be next

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

It always is wild to me how much demand there is from the midwest to Florida.

I ran the numbers on Spring Break this year, and even during a pandemic, just on any given Saturday there were enough seats on IND-Florida alone to carry over 3% of Indianapolis' population. Not even counting any passengers that would be connecting.

That being said, I think MLB/DAB would be next in line of destinations in Florida, although DAB is very close to SFB.

Maybe UST if it gets service again.

Hey Midwest, would check your numbers on IND -FL seats? 3% of Indy proper would be in the range of 24,000 seats. Maybe .3%?

Amtrak planning on adding a stop at IND, with 8 daily RT along the IND-Chicago leg, and 4 RT on Cincy/Louisville.

Same for CLE


https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/

Rocketman1972 wrote:

Hey Midwest, would check your numbers on IND -FL seats? 3% of Indy proper would be in the range of 24,000 seats. Maybe .3%?

It's actually ~2%, I accidentally included some non Florida destinations.

For reference IND-Orlando alone had 4.5k seats both ways during peak Spring Break. So, that would be enough to carry 0.5% of Indianapolis' population not counting connecting passengers.

Midwestindy wrote:

Amtrak planning on adding a stop at IND, with 8 daily RT along the IND-Chicago leg, and 4 RT on Cincy/Louisville.

Same for CLE


https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/

Rocketman1972 wrote:

Hey Midwest, would check your numbers on IND -FL seats? 3% of Indy proper would be in the range of 24,000 seats. Maybe .3%?

It's actually ~2%, I accidentally included some non Florida destinations.

For reference IND-Orlando alone had 4.5k seats both ways during peak Spring Break. So, that would be enough to carry 0.5% of Indianapolis' population not counting connecting passengers.

Amtrak has been talking about this stuff for DECADES. Even if it all got approved tomorrow, it would take at least a decade to upgrade the tracks and bid/build/lawsuit the railcars, and billions and billions of dollars. For just ONE low priority route.

Not going to happen, at least in the lifetimes of most of us.

FlyingElvii wrote:

Amtrak has been talking about this stuff for DECADES. Even if it all got approved tomorrow, it would take at least a decade to upgrade the tracks and bid/build/lawsuit the railcars, and billions and billions of dollars. For just ONE low priority route.

Not going to happen, at least in the lifetimes of most of us.

Sure, it may take a decade - but they didn't build Rome in a summer either. I live in the Netherlands where I've seen rail projects take a decade. Guess what? 10 years later we have high speed lines, beautiful stations and so on. Great things come to those that don't expect them to show up tomorrow.

kindeham wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

Amtrak has been talking about this stuff for DECADES. Even if it all got approved tomorrow, it would take at least a decade to upgrade the tracks and bid/build/lawsuit the railcars, and billions and billions of dollars. For just ONE low priority route.

Not going to happen, at least in the lifetimes of most of us.

Sure, it may take a decade - but they didn't build Rome in a summer either. I live in the Netherlands where I've seen rail projects take a decade. Guess what? 10 years later we have high speed lines, beautiful stations and so on. Great things come to those that don't expect them to show up tomorrow.

Don’t have experience with American government contracting, eh? It took 35 YEARS to build just one runway at O’Hare, because of all the lawsuits.

FlyingElvii wrote:

Don’t have experience with American government contracting, eh? It took 35 YEARS to build just one runway at O’Hare, because of all the lawsuits.

I think Brightline down in Florida is the model for getting things done. They haven't even finished the route to Orlando and they are already in negotiations for the extension to Tampa. If people want to get things done, they can get things done. Unfortunately, too often in this country we just make excuses. I am glad things are finally turning around. There is going to be a big influx of infrastructure spending and that will change a lot.

Just saw an SK A350 on approach to IND. Appeared to be a CPH-ORD diversion. Talk about a rare sight at IND.

You also got Finnair AY9 which diverted a350

The SK A350 is still on the ground. Supposed to depart around 11:30pm local. In total we had around 30 diversions from ORD yesterday evening. The two standouts that have been previously mentioned, a Kalitta 744 from ANC, and the remainder were AA/UA mainline and regionals.

ATAIndy wrote:

The SK A350 is still on the ground. Supposed to depart around 11:30pm local. In total we had around 30 diversions from ORD yesterday evening. The two standouts that have been previously mentioned, a Kalitta 744 from ANC, and the remainder were AA/UA mainline and regionals.

There were some fedex also.

Jshank83 wrote:

There were some fedex also.

Good catch. Forgot that one, we get plenty of purple tails already.

Tentative November schedules (Fridays, not including Thanksgiving), WN isn't up-to-date IIRC:

AA
IND-CLT 7x (4xA319, 3xE175) -- Less frequency, more capacity than 2019
IND-DCA 6x (6xE175) -- Same frequency, more capacity than 2019
IND-DFW 4x (3xB738, A319) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-PHL 4x (2x E175, CR9, CR7) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-LGA 4x (3xE175, E170) -- More frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-ORD 4x (E175, E170, CR7, E145) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-MIA 3x (2xB738, E175) -- Same frequency, more capacity than 2019
IND-AUS 2x (2xE175) -- Did not run in 2019
IND-BOS 2x (2xE175) -- Did not run in 2019
IND-JFK 2x (2xE175) -- More frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-PHX 2x (A321, B738) -- Same frequency, more capacity than 2019
IND-LAX 1x (A319) -- Same frequency/capacity as 2019

DL
IND-ATL 7x (5xA321, 2xA320) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-DTW 5x (B717, 4xCR9) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-MSP 5x (A321, A319, 3xCR9) -- Same frequency, less capacity than 2019
IND-LGA 5x (E175, 4xE170) -- Same frequency, less capacity than 2019
IND-BOS 3x (2xE175, CR9) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-JFK 3x (3xCR9) -- Same frequency/capacity as 2019
IND-LAX 1x (B738) -- Same frequency, more capacity than 2019

UA
IND-EWR 7x (4xE175, 3xCR550) -- Same frequency, more capacity than 2019
IND-ORD 6x (3xE175, E170, CR550, CR2) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-IAD 4x (2xE175, E170, CR550) -- Same frequency, more capacity than 2019
IND-IAH 3x (3xE175) -- Less frequency/capacity than 2019
IND-DEN 2x (B738, A319) -- Same frequency, more capacity than 2019
IND-SFO 1x (A320) -- Same frequency, less capacity than 2019

Midwestindy wrote:

IND June enplanements were 82.8% of 2019.

June 2021
NK 276% of 2019
F9 133%
G4 106%
AS 94.6%
AA 93.6%
WN 79.2%
DL 61.0%
UA 60.5%

Cargo
CV 212.6% of 2019
FX 144.7% of 2019
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 0803151246

July 2021 vs. July 2019

Total July enplanements -12.6%
Total July cargo +45.6%

SY Did not operate in 2019
NK +168.6%
F9 +49.3%
G4 +8.4%
AA -3.2%
AS -6.5%
WN -19.1%
UA -22.9%
DL -35.3%
AC -100.0%



https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 0830163943
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 0910152034

About to get some interesting diversions to IND with WX in ORD. Y8 747 up first, inbound from ANC. EY and BA currently holding in northern Indiana...

Indy wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

Don’t have experience with American government contracting, eh? It took 35 YEARS to build just one runway at O’Hare, because of all the lawsuits.

I think Brightline down in Florida is the model for getting things done. They haven't even finished the route to Orlando and they are already in negotiations for the extension to Tampa. If people want to get things done, they can get things done. Unfortunately, too often in this country we just make excuses. I am glad things are finally turning around. There is going to be a big influx of infrastructure spending and that will change a lot.

It’s a great model. It’s a private railroad system, so things get done. No government involved in running, building or operating it.

Forgot to mention this earlier, but saw an Hawaiian A330 on approach to IND Monday afternoon. I imagine it was likely a diversion but not sure where from since HA doesn't serve ORD.

Afghan Express IAD-IND. Camp Atterbury Taking in about 5000. Lots of kids asking for donations of soccer balls

IND-Florida continues to be fun, F9 is re-adding IND-RSW at 3x weekly starting November 5th.

F9 is also moving IND-CUN's restart up to November 19th at 2x A321.

Should be interesting to see what WN's Spring Break schedule looks like when it comes out Thursday. Given NK released their schedule

Midwestindy wrote:

IND-Florida continues to be fun, F9 is re-adding IND-RSW at 3x weekly starting November 5th.

F9 is also moving IND-CUN's restart up to November 19th at 2x A321.

Should be interesting to see what WN's Spring Break schedule looks like when it comes out Thursday. Given NK released their schedule

WN's schedule extension for Florida routes: MCO up to 8x, RSW up to 6x, TPA up to 6x, SRQ up to 3x, FLL up to 3x, MIA up to 1x, ECP up to 1x

More will also likely be added in later on.

On Saturdays, IND-SRQ will be tied for WN's busiest route to SRQ, and I believe IND-RSW is the 2nd busiest to RSW.

Midwestindy wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

IND-Florida continues to be fun, F9 is re-adding IND-RSW at 3x weekly starting November 5th.

F9 is also moving IND-CUN's restart up to November 19th at 2x A321.

Should be interesting to see what WN's Spring Break schedule looks like when it comes out Thursday. Given NK released their schedule

WN's schedule extension for Florida routes: MCO up to 8x, RSW up to 6x, TPA up to 6x, SRQ up to 3x, FLL up to 3x, MIA up to 1x, ECP up to 1x

More will also likely be added in later on.

On Saturdays, IND-SRQ will be tied for WN's busiest route to SRQ, and I believe IND-RSW is the 2nd busiest to RSW.

ECP and MIA 1x daily?

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

IND-Florida continues to be fun, F9 is re-adding IND-RSW at 3x weekly starting November 5th.

F9 is also moving IND-CUN's restart up to November 19th at 2x A321.

Should be interesting to see what WN's Spring Break schedule looks like when it comes out Thursday. Given NK released their schedule

WN's schedule extension for Florida routes: MCO up to 8x, RSW up to 6x, TPA up to 6x, SRQ up to 3x, FLL up to 3x, MIA up to 1x, ECP up to 1x

More will also likely be added in later on.

On Saturdays, IND-SRQ will be tied for WN's busiest route to SRQ, and I believe IND-RSW is the 2nd busiest to RSW.

ECP and MIA 1x daily?

Those are peak frequencies (Saturdays), so 1x weekly for MIA/ECP, I expect more frequencies will be added early next year.

MCO is 4x daily (8x Saturday), RSW/TPA 3x daily (6x Saturday), FLL 2x daily (3x Saturday), SRQ 1x daily (3x Saturday)

Midwestindy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

WN's schedule extension for Florida routes: MCO up to 8x, RSW up to 6x, TPA up to 6x, SRQ up to 3x, FLL up to 3x, MIA up to 1x, ECP up to 1x

More will also likely be added in later on.

On Saturdays, IND-SRQ will be tied for WN's busiest route to SRQ, and I believe IND-RSW is the 2nd busiest to RSW.

ECP and MIA 1x daily?

Those are peak frequencies (Saturdays), so 1x weekly for MIA/ECP, I expect more frequencies will be added early next year.

MCO is 4x daily (8x Saturday), RSW/TPA 3x daily (6x Saturday), FLL 2x daily (3x Saturday), SRQ 1x daily (3x Saturday)

Okay!

Midwestindy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

WN's schedule extension for Florida routes: MCO up to 8x, RSW up to 6x, TPA up to 6x, SRQ up to 3x, FLL up to 3x, MIA up to 1x, ECP up to 1x

More will also likely be added in later on.

On Saturdays, IND-SRQ will be tied for WN's busiest route to SRQ, and I believe IND-RSW is the 2nd busiest to RSW.

ECP and MIA 1x daily?

Those are peak frequencies (Saturdays), so 1x weekly for MIA/ECP, I expect more frequencies will be added early next year.

MCO is 4x daily (8x Saturday), RSW/TPA 3x daily (6x Saturday), FLL 2x daily (3x Saturday), SRQ 1x daily (3x Saturday)

Is MYR in the Schedule for next year?

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

ECP and MIA 1x daily?

Those are peak frequencies (Saturdays), so 1x weekly for MIA/ECP, I expect more frequencies will be added early next year.

MCO is 4x daily (8x Saturday), RSW/TPA 3x daily (6x Saturday), FLL 2x daily (3x Saturday), SRQ 1x daily (3x Saturday)

Is MYR in the Schedule for next year?

Not in this extension. Maybe it will be in the summer one

Looking at Allegiant schedule for Saturday March 26th and April 2nd they are running 2X to most of there major Florida airports.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

June 2021 Load Factors

West coast looking good

AS---Good possibility they might try 2x daily again
AS IND-SEA-94.3%


G4--- Surprised they are still running PBI, SAV also seems to be tough for them, great performance from BOS & LAX
--NEW ROUTE--G4 IND-BOS-88.8%
G4 IND-PIE-88.7%
--NEW ROUTE--G4 IND-LAX-88.1%
G4 IND-LAS-87.0%
G4 IND-SFB-85.4%
G4 IND-SRQ-84.8%
G4 IND-PGD-83.8%
G4 IND-MYR-82.3%
G4 IND-AUS-74.8%
G4 IND-FLL-74.0%
G4 IND-VPS-71.1%
G4 IND-SAV-66.1%
G4 IND-CHS-65.4%
G4 IND-PBI-59.6%


AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

DL
DL IND-LAX-88.4%
DL IND-ATL-86.7%
DL IND-MSP-85.1%
DL IND-DTW-75.2%
DL IND-JFK-66.5%

F9
F9 IND-DEN-85.9%
F9 IND-LAS-82.0%
F9 IND-MCO-81.2%

NK -- Spirit came in too hot in PNS, lots of bad LFs outside of IND, probably also needed more lead time
NK IND-MCO-93.0%
NK IND-LAS-88.8%
NK IND-FLL-87.4%
NK IND-RSW-81.7%
NK IND-TPA-77.4%
--NEW ROUTE--NK IND-PNS-39.4%

SY -- They need less IND-MSP and more IND-Florida
--NEW ROUTE--SY IND-MSP-66.9%

UA -- P2P not too bad, again only around 2 months of lead time to sell these, so all in all could have been much worse
UA IND-DEN-91.0%
UA IND-IAH-89.8%
UA IND-EWR-89.2%
UA IND-IAD-87.8%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-CHS-74.8%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-PWM-57.3%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-HHH-57.2%

WN -- ECP & MIA were announced one month in advance, so again not too bad
WN IND-DEN-93.1%
WN IND-LAS-92.9%
WN IND-PHX-90.7%
WN IND-RSW-90.5%
WN IND-DAL-90.1%
WN IND-AUS-89.8%
WN IND-HOU-88.6%
WN IND-TPA-87.0%
WN IND-BWI-85.6%
WN IND-MCO-84.0%
WN IND-ATL-82.9%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-MYR-75.6%
WN IND-FLL-69.2%
WN IND-SRQ-65.4%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-MIA-53.5%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-ECP-44.8%

AA+DL or AA+UA combined
IND-ORD-81.4%
IND-BOS-76.4%
IND-LGA-74.2%

ibthebigd wrote:

Looking at Allegiant schedule for Saturday March 26th and April 2nd they are running 2X to most of there major Florida airports.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

G4's schedule is interesting, they are up to 11 departures a day, 3 days a week next March.

They must be getting pretty tight, because they are only operating IND-EYW from December - February & IND-TUS November - February. Missing peak Spring Break.

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

BangersAndMash wrote:

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

I agree that AS adding IND-PDX nonstop service is a possibility with IND being one of the top remaining destinations without any nonstop service to PDX.

BangersAndMash wrote:

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

I don't think AS will want to try IND-PDX until IND-SEA is 2x daily consistently

Midwestindy wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

I don't think AS will want to try IND-PDX until IND-SEA is 2x daily consistently

You're probably right but I feel it's a bit of a missed opportunity.

I think they could quite easily get to what they have in AUS, flying to pretty much all their existing hubs and focus cities. From the data we're seeing, loads on SEA flights are very good and AA has bulked up nicely, giving them a ready made customer base to tap into. AA's loads have been pretty solid across the board too, despite all the recent growth.

There are a few promising markets that are still competitive right now which smart airlines can have a lock on, and IND is one of them (in a way that BNA for example is not). Now's the time to make a move. But AS is always so damn conservative! Then again, I suppose their results speak for themselves. Oh well, we'll have to be patient I guess

If you told me 5 years a go IND would have flights to Tuscon and Palm Springs but not SAN or PDX I'd laugh at you. Granted its Allegiant but still impressive.

Southwest showed IND-SAN could work. I even drove 3 hours to take the flight because it was timed perfectly.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

ibthebigd wrote:

If you told me 5 years a go IND would have flights to Tuscon and Palm Springs but not SAN or PDX I'd laugh at you. Granted its Allegiant but still impressive.

Southwest showed IND-SAN could work. I even drove 3 hours to take the flight because it was timed perfectly.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Allegiant is a different business model, of course. TUS and PSP are possible thanks to the low utilisation model. AS would want to start with daily flights. But still, as you said, the market is clearly there. And you'd think market dynamics have moved enough to make IND a place worth investing in, especially for a Oneworld carrier.

BangersAndMash wrote:

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

PDX has always had spotty service to any city east of the Rockies that's not a hub. IND,MKE,CLE,CMH,CVG,PIT,MSY,RDU and even PHL and everything in Florida except MCO have no nonstops.

pmanni1 wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

PDX has always had spotty service to any city east of the Rockies that's not a hub. IND,MKE,CLE,CMH,CVG,PIT,MSY,RDU and even PHL and everything in Florida except MCO have no nonstops.

FLL gets B6 and AS and TPA gets AS nonstop to PDX.

BangersAndMash wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

I don't think AS will want to try IND-PDX until IND-SEA is 2x daily consistently

You're probably right but I feel it's a bit of a missed opportunity.

I think they could quite easily get to what they have in AUS, flying to pretty much all their existing hubs and focus cities. From the data we're seeing, loads on SEA flights are very good and AA has bulked up nicely, giving them a ready made customer base to tap into. AA's loads have been pretty solid across the board too, despite all the recent growth.

There are a few promising markets that are still competitive right now which smart airlines can have a lock on, and IND is one of them (in a way that BNA for example is not). Now's the time to make a move. But AS is always so damn conservative! Then again, I suppose their results speak for themselves. Oh well, we'll have to be patient I guess

Don't forget AS/VX tried IND-SFO a few years ago, and it was cut.

I don't think AUS is a good comparison to IND in this scenario. Ignoring the larger West Coast ties AUS has, AUS, by nature of its geographic position would always have much more west coast service than IND due to less overflying of hubs and ability to use RJs.

If AS adds BNA-PDX, I'd say IND has a shot, until then I'd wager they'd prefer to allocate resources to IND-SEA

ibthebigd wrote:

If you told me 5 years a go IND would have flights to Tuscon and Palm Springs but not SAN or PDX I'd laugh at you. Granted its Allegiant but still impressive.

Southwest showed IND-SAN could work. I even drove 3 hours to take the flight because it was timed perfectly.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

G4 is really beneficial for IND, they go after these unserved markets like IND-AUS/SRQ/VPS/etc, and years later there is tons of service on these routes. Plus, they don't leave after a year like F9 does, and they don't overpower markets like NK does and force other carriers out.

G4 does a good job of stimulating the market for others to come in, so would be good if they added IND-SAN/PDX. Neither seems far fetched considering they fly PDX-GRR and SAN-DSM.

FLYKTPA wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Any chance we see AS expanding the route map? PDX, maybe SFO or SAN would be nice.

PDX has always had spotty service to any city east of the Rockies that's not a hub. IND,MKE,CLE,CMH,CVG,PIT,MSY,RDU and even PHL and everything in Florida except MCO have no nonstops.

FLL gets B6 and AS and TPA gets AS nonstop to PDX.

You are correct about B6 to FLL but I don't see AS to TPA on the PDX or Alaska website.

pmanni1 wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

PDX has always had spotty service to any city east of the Rockies that's not a hub. IND,MKE,CLE,CMH,CVG,PIT,MSY,RDU and even PHL and everything in Florida except MCO have no nonstops.

FLL gets B6 and AS and TPA gets AS nonstop to PDX.

You are correct about B6 to FLL but I don't see AS to TPA on the PDX or Alaska website.

Not flying yet but announced. Seasonal from December.

Midwestindy wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I don't think AS will want to try IND-PDX until IND-SEA is 2x daily consistently

You're probably right but I feel it's a bit of a missed opportunity.

I think they could quite easily get to what they have in AUS, flying to pretty much all their existing hubs and focus cities. From the data we're seeing, loads on SEA flights are very good and AA has bulked up nicely, giving them a ready made customer base to tap into. AA's loads have been pretty solid across the board too, despite all the recent growth.

There are a few promising markets that are still competitive right now which smart airlines can have a lock on, and IND is one of them (in a way that BNA for example is not). Now's the time to make a move. But AS is always so damn conservative! Then again, I suppose their results speak for themselves. Oh well, we'll have to be patient I guess

Don't forget AS/VX tried IND-SFO a few years ago, and it was cut.

I don't think AUS is a good comparison to IND in this scenario. Ignoring the larger West Coast ties AUS has, AUS, by nature of its geographic position would always have much more west coast service than IND due to less overflying of hubs and ability to use RJs.

If AS adds BNA-PDX, I'd say IND has a shot, until then I'd wager they'd prefer to allocate resources to IND-SEA

ibthebigd wrote:

If you told me 5 years a go IND would have flights to Tuscon and Palm Springs but not SAN or PDX I'd laugh at you. Granted its Allegiant but still impressive.

Southwest showed IND-SAN could work. I even drove 3 hours to take the flight because it was timed perfectly.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

G4 is really beneficial for IND, they go after these unserved markets like IND-AUS/SRQ/VPS/etc, and years later there is tons of service on these routes. Plus, they don't leave after a year like F9 does, and they don't overpower markets like NK does and force other carriers out.

G4 does a good job of stimulating the market for others to come in, so would be good if they added IND-SAN/PDX. Neither seems far fetched considering they fly PDX-GRR and SAN-DSM.

Not disputing any of your arguments, but I'd still like to see more from AS. While AUS/IND is not an apples to apples comparison, I agree, the 2 markets share the growth potential and have no dominant airline. Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.

BangersAndMash wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

FLL gets B6 and AS and TPA gets AS nonstop to PDX.

You are correct about B6 to FLL but I don't see AS to TPA on the PDX or Alaska website.

Not flying yet but announced. Seasonal from December.

Both FLL routes operated last season.

BangersAndMash wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

You're probably right but I feel it's a bit of a missed opportunity.

I think they could quite easily get to what they have in AUS, flying to pretty much all their existing hubs and focus cities. From the data we're seeing, loads on SEA flights are very good and AA has bulked up nicely, giving them a ready made customer base to tap into. AA's loads have been pretty solid across the board too, despite all the recent growth.

There are a few promising markets that are still competitive right now which smart airlines can have a lock on, and IND is one of them (in a way that BNA for example is not). Now's the time to make a move. But AS is always so damn conservative! Then again, I suppose their results speak for themselves. Oh well, we'll have to be patient I guess

Don't forget AS/VX tried IND-SFO a few years ago, and it was cut.

I don't think AUS is a good comparison to IND in this scenario. Ignoring the larger West Coast ties AUS has, AUS, by nature of its geographic position would always have much more west coast service than IND due to less overflying of hubs and ability to use RJs.

If AS adds BNA-PDX, I'd say IND has a shot, until then I'd wager they'd prefer to allocate resources to IND-SEA

ibthebigd wrote:

If you told me 5 years a go IND would have flights to Tuscon and Palm Springs but not SAN or PDX I'd laugh at you. Granted its Allegiant but still impressive.

Southwest showed IND-SAN could work. I even drove 3 hours to take the flight because it was timed perfectly.

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G4 is really beneficial for IND, they go after these unserved markets like IND-AUS/SRQ/VPS/etc, and years later there is tons of service on these routes. Plus, they don't leave after a year like F9 does, and they don't overpower markets like NK does and force other carriers out.

G4 does a good job of stimulating the market for others to come in, so would be good if they added IND-SAN/PDX. Neither seems far fetched considering they fly PDX-GRR and SAN-DSM.

Not disputing any of your arguments, but I'd still like to see more from AS. While AUS/IND is not an apples to apples comparison, I agree, the 2 markets share the growth potential and have no dominant airline. Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.

AS has continued to state their plans for SEA is to add more banks. Any airport on the east coast or Midwest supports at least 2x daily to SEA before getting another route. Hopefully IND can get 2x daily to SEA next year and go from there. Getting 2x to SEA appears to be their baseline for growing a market more.

FLYKTPA wrote:

AS has continued to state their plans for SEA is to add more banks. Any airport on the east coast or Midwest supports at least 2x daily to SEA before getting another route. Hopefully IND can get 2x daily to SEA next year and go from there. Getting 2x to SEA appears to be their baseline for growing a market more.

There are a few markets east of the West Coast with fewer than 2 daily nonstops to SEA on AS that do have daily nonstop service to PDX on AS (or that will later this year) such as ABQ, FLL, MSY, and TUS.

BangersAndMash wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

You're probably right but I feel it's a bit of a missed opportunity.

I think they could quite easily get to what they have in AUS, flying to pretty much all their existing hubs and focus cities. From the data we're seeing, loads on SEA flights are very good and AA has bulked up nicely, giving them a ready made customer base to tap into. AA's loads have been pretty solid across the board too, despite all the recent growth.

There are a few promising markets that are still competitive right now which smart airlines can have a lock on, and IND is one of them (in a way that BNA for example is not). Now's the time to make a move. But AS is always so damn conservative! Then again, I suppose their results speak for themselves. Oh well, we'll have to be patient I guess

Don't forget AS/VX tried IND-SFO a few years ago, and it was cut.

I don't think AUS is a good comparison to IND in this scenario. Ignoring the larger West Coast ties AUS has, AUS, by nature of its geographic position would always have much more west coast service than IND due to less overflying of hubs and ability to use RJs.

If AS adds BNA-PDX, I'd say IND has a shot, until then I'd wager they'd prefer to allocate resources to IND-SEA

ibthebigd wrote:

If you told me 5 years a go IND would have flights to Tuscon and Palm Springs but not SAN or PDX I'd laugh at you. Granted its Allegiant but still impressive.

Southwest showed IND-SAN could work. I even drove 3 hours to take the flight because it was timed perfectly.

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G4 is really beneficial for IND, they go after these unserved markets like IND-AUS/SRQ/VPS/etc, and years later there is tons of service on these routes. Plus, they don't leave after a year like F9 does, and they don't overpower markets like NK does and force other carriers out.

G4 does a good job of stimulating the market for others to come in, so would be good if they added IND-SAN/PDX. Neither seems far fetched considering they fly PDX-GRR and SAN-DSM.

Not disputing any of your arguments, but I'd still like to see more from AS. While AUS/IND is not an apples to apples comparison, I agree, the 2 markets share the growth potential and have no dominant airline. Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.

“ Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.”

I’m going to say this isn’t correct. The most promising Midwestern market for AS to invest resources would be STL. Over 2-million more annual passengers vs IND and OneWorld partner AA already has a large presence and still growing. After STL maybe IND.

thanks! why are ORD, BOS and LGA combined (at the bottom)?

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors

West coast looking good

AS---Good possibility they might try 2x daily again
AS IND-SEA-94.3%


G4--- Surprised they are still running PBI, SAV also seems to be tough for them, great performance from BOS & LAX
--NEW ROUTE--G4 IND-BOS-88.8%
G4 IND-PIE-88.7%
--NEW ROUTE--G4 IND-LAX-88.1%
G4 IND-LAS-87.0%
G4 IND-SFB-85.4%
G4 IND-SRQ-84.8%
G4 IND-PGD-83.8%
G4 IND-MYR-82.3%
G4 IND-AUS-74.8%
G4 IND-FLL-74.0%
G4 IND-VPS-71.1%
G4 IND-SAV-66.1%
G4 IND-CHS-65.4%
G4 IND-PBI-59.6%


AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

DL
DL IND-LAX-88.4%
DL IND-ATL-86.7%
DL IND-MSP-85.1%
DL IND-DTW-75.2%
DL IND-JFK-66.5%

F9
F9 IND-DEN-85.9%
F9 IND-LAS-82.0%
F9 IND-MCO-81.2%

NK -- Spirit came in too hot in PNS, lots of bad LFs outside of IND, probably also needed more lead time
NK IND-MCO-93.0%
NK IND-LAS-88.8%
NK IND-FLL-87.4%
NK IND-RSW-81.7%
NK IND-TPA-77.4%
--NEW ROUTE--NK IND-PNS-39.4%

SY -- They need less IND-MSP and more IND-Florida
--NEW ROUTE--SY IND-MSP-66.9%

UA -- P2P not too bad, again only around 2 months of lead time to sell these, so all in all could have been much worse
UA IND-DEN-91.0%
UA IND-IAH-89.8%
UA IND-EWR-89.2%
UA IND-IAD-87.8%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-CHS-74.8%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-PWM-57.3%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-HHH-57.2%

WN -- ECP & MIA were announced one month in advance, so again not too bad
WN IND-DEN-93.1%
WN IND-LAS-92.9%
WN IND-PHX-90.7%
WN IND-RSW-90.5%
WN IND-DAL-90.1%
WN IND-AUS-89.8%
WN IND-HOU-88.6%
WN IND-TPA-87.0%
WN IND-BWI-85.6%
WN IND-MCO-84.0%
WN IND-ATL-82.9%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-MYR-75.6%
WN IND-FLL-69.2%
WN IND-SRQ-65.4%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-MIA-53.5%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-ECP-44.8%

AA+DL or AA+UA combined
IND-ORD-81.4%
IND-BOS-76.4%
IND-LGA-74.2%

clrd4t8koff wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Don't forget AS/VX tried IND-SFO a few years ago, and it was cut.

I don't think AUS is a good comparison to IND in this scenario. Ignoring the larger West Coast ties AUS has, AUS, by nature of its geographic position would always have much more west coast service than IND due to less overflying of hubs and ability to use RJs.

If AS adds BNA-PDX, I'd say IND has a shot, until then I'd wager they'd prefer to allocate resources to IND-SEA



G4 is really beneficial for IND, they go after these unserved markets like IND-AUS/SRQ/VPS/etc, and years later there is tons of service on these routes. Plus, they don't leave after a year like F9 does, and they don't overpower markets like NK does and force other carriers out.

G4 does a good job of stimulating the market for others to come in, so would be good if they added IND-SAN/PDX. Neither seems far fetched considering they fly PDX-GRR and SAN-DSM.

Not disputing any of your arguments, but I'd still like to see more from AS. While AUS/IND is not an apples to apples comparison, I agree, the 2 markets share the growth potential and have no dominant airline. Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.

“ Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.”

I’m going to say this isn’t correct. The most promising Midwestern market for AS to invest resources would be STL. Over 2-million more annual passengers vs IND and OneWorld partner AA already has a large presence and still growing. After STL maybe IND.

STL would require them to go h2h with WN to I believe all of their hubs/focus cities, not ideal by any stretch....

filbrkz wrote:

thanks! why are ORD, BOS and LGA combined (at the bottom)?

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors

West coast looking good

AS---Good possibility they might try 2x daily again
AS IND-SEA-94.3%


G4--- Surprised they are still running PBI, SAV also seems to be tough for them, great performance from BOS & LAX
--NEW ROUTE--G4 IND-BOS-88.8%
G4 IND-PIE-88.7%
--NEW ROUTE--G4 IND-LAX-88.1%
G4 IND-LAS-87.0%
G4 IND-SFB-85.4%
G4 IND-SRQ-84.8%
G4 IND-PGD-83.8%
G4 IND-MYR-82.3%
G4 IND-AUS-74.8%
G4 IND-FLL-74.0%
G4 IND-VPS-71.1%
G4 IND-SAV-66.1%
G4 IND-CHS-65.4%
G4 IND-PBI-59.6%


AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

DL
DL IND-LAX-88.4%
DL IND-ATL-86.7%
DL IND-MSP-85.1%
DL IND-DTW-75.2%
DL IND-JFK-66.5%

F9
F9 IND-DEN-85.9%
F9 IND-LAS-82.0%
F9 IND-MCO-81.2%

NK -- Spirit came in too hot in PNS, lots of bad LFs outside of IND, probably also needed more lead time
NK IND-MCO-93.0%
NK IND-LAS-88.8%
NK IND-FLL-87.4%
NK IND-RSW-81.7%
NK IND-TPA-77.4%
--NEW ROUTE--NK IND-PNS-39.4%

SY -- They need less IND-MSP and more IND-Florida
--NEW ROUTE--SY IND-MSP-66.9%

UA -- P2P not too bad, again only around 2 months of lead time to sell these, so all in all could have been much worse
UA IND-DEN-91.0%
UA IND-IAH-89.8%
UA IND-EWR-89.2%
UA IND-IAD-87.8%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-CHS-74.8%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-PWM-57.3%
--NEW ROUTE--UA IND-HHH-57.2%

WN -- ECP & MIA were announced one month in advance, so again not too bad
WN IND-DEN-93.1%
WN IND-LAS-92.9%
WN IND-PHX-90.7%
WN IND-RSW-90.5%
WN IND-DAL-90.1%
WN IND-AUS-89.8%
WN IND-HOU-88.6%
WN IND-TPA-87.0%
WN IND-BWI-85.6%
WN IND-MCO-84.0%
WN IND-ATL-82.9%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-MYR-75.6%
WN IND-FLL-69.2%
WN IND-SRQ-65.4%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-MIA-53.5%
--NEW ROUTE--WN IND-ECP-44.8%

AA+DL or AA+UA combined
IND-ORD-81.4%
IND-BOS-76.4%
IND-LGA-74.2%

BOS, LGA, & ORD all have regional operators that operate the same fleet type for two carriers.

Midwestindy, when will you have YTD passenger numbers I'm curious how IND is doing. Early in the year IND was ahead of SNA so I'm curious how IND is doing compared to SNA SAT CVG Ect

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clrd4t8koff wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Don't forget AS/VX tried IND-SFO a few years ago, and it was cut.

I don't think AUS is a good comparison to IND in this scenario. Ignoring the larger West Coast ties AUS has, AUS, by nature of its geographic position would always have much more west coast service than IND due to less overflying of hubs and ability to use RJs.

If AS adds BNA-PDX, I'd say IND has a shot, until then I'd wager they'd prefer to allocate resources to IND-SEA



G4 is really beneficial for IND, they go after these unserved markets like IND-AUS/SRQ/VPS/etc, and years later there is tons of service on these routes. Plus, they don't leave after a year like F9 does, and they don't overpower markets like NK does and force other carriers out.

G4 does a good job of stimulating the market for others to come in, so would be good if they added IND-SAN/PDX. Neither seems far fetched considering they fly PDX-GRR and SAN-DSM.

Not disputing any of your arguments, but I'd still like to see more from AS. While AUS/IND is not an apples to apples comparison, I agree, the 2 markets share the growth potential and have no dominant airline. Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.

“ Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.”

I’m going to say this isn’t correct. The most promising Midwestern market for AS to invest resources would be STL. Over 2-million more annual passengers vs IND and OneWorld partner AA already has a large presence and still growing. After STL maybe IND.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Here's why:
- AA has actually a larger network out of IND (14 destinations) than out of STL (11 destinations currently - 12 once Boston comes online)
- AA's market share at IND is larger than what it is at STL (over 20% vs. around 15%)
- IND is growing much faster than STL
- STL is WN territory (60%+ market share), the best AA can hope for is legacy of choice - there are simply more opportunities at IND as no single carrier is dominant there

I'd say IND would also be more attractive than STL to an international carrier like BA should TATL ever come.

ibthebigd wrote:

Midwestindy, when will you have YTD passenger numbers I'm curious how IND is doing. Early in the year IND was ahead of SNA so I'm curious how IND is doing compared to SNA SAT CVG Ect

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YTD July
MCI-3,962,415
CLE-3,798,231
SAT-3,793,490
IND-3,753,075
SNA-3,509,744
SJC-3,414,728
CVG-3,322,790
PIT-3,122,865
CMH-2,936,409