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Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:59 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Lots of chatter today about $100 a barrel oil coming very soon. Gas prices hit a seven year high. We were an energy independent nation just ten months ago.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/06/america ... years.html

If oil prices skyrocket, all of these new routes will be the first to be drawn back.


Kind of easy to be energy independent when your economy is shut down and no one is going anywhere. We were so in the toilet that oil hit negative prices. After the disaster that 2020 was, there was a glut of demand and now that demand is being satisfied. That puts a temporary strain on oil production which drives up prices. Eventually things will calm down and prices will come back down to earth.
 
IndyHoosier
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:56 pm

Indy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Lots of chatter today about $100 a barrel oil coming very soon. Gas prices hit a seven year high. We were an energy independent nation just ten months ago.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/06/america ... years.html

If oil prices skyrocket, all of these new routes will be the first to be drawn back.


Kind of easy to be energy independent when your economy is shut down and no one is going anywhere. We were so in the toilet that oil hit negative prices. After the disaster that 2020 was, there was a glut of demand and now that demand is being satisfied. That puts a temporary strain on oil production which drives up prices. Eventually things will calm down and prices will come back down to earth.


Very well said. It's laughable to think that the U.S. went from being "energy independent" to not in ten months.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:11 pm

IndyHoosier wrote:
Indy wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Lots of chatter today about $100 a barrel oil coming very soon. Gas prices hit a seven year high. We were an energy independent nation just ten months ago.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/06/america ... years.html

If oil prices skyrocket, all of these new routes will be the first to be drawn back.


Kind of easy to be energy independent when your economy is shut down and no one is going anywhere. We were so in the toilet that oil hit negative prices. After the disaster that 2020 was, there was a glut of demand and now that demand is being satisfied. That puts a temporary strain on oil production which drives up prices. Eventually things will calm down and prices will come back down to earth.


Very well said. It's laughable to think that the U.S. went from being "energy independent" to not in ten months.


You both are entitled to your own ignorant opinions but not your own facts. The US achieved energy independence under the previous administration in 2019, well before the pandemic..

"Since 2005, total annual energy imports have decreased and total energy exports have increased. The United States became a net total energy exporter in 2019 for the first time since 1952 and maintained that position in 2020 even though both total energy production and consumption were lower in 2020 than in 2019."
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us- ... xports.php
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:28 pm

2020 is one year and 2020 speaks for itself in terms of consumer usage.

Refining capacity remains down. Crude imports will jump to 3.7 million barrels roughly in 2021 as a whole and 4.4 in 2022.
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:15 pm

flyPIT wrote:
You both are entitled to your own ignorant opinions but not your own facts. The US achieved energy independence under the previous administration in 2019, well before the pandemic..

"Since 2005, total annual energy imports have decreased and total energy exports have increased. The United States became a net total energy exporter in 2019 for the first time since 1952 and maintained that position in 2020 even though both total energy production and consumption were lower in 2020 than in 2019."
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us- ... xports.php


If you think one year makes us energy independent, you are mistaken. I ate healthy for a couple of weeks. Does that make me a healthy person? No a chance. The U.S. had a budget surplus for a few years back around 2000. That and $1 buys you a Coke. The very fact that OPEC can still manipulate prices in the U.S. tells me everything I need to know. We are far from energy independence. I think it is best NOT to try and drag politics into this discussion. Let's stick to aviation..
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:00 am

Indy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
You both are entitled to your own ignorant opinions but not your own facts. The US achieved energy independence under the previous administration in 2019, well before the pandemic..

"Since 2005, total annual energy imports have decreased and total energy exports have increased. The United States became a net total energy exporter in 2019 for the first time since 1952 and maintained that position in 2020 even though both total energy production and consumption were lower in 2020 than in 2019."
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us- ... xports.php


If you think one year makes us energy independent, you are mistaken. I ate healthy for a couple of weeks. Does that make me a healthy person? No a chance. The U.S. had a budget surplus for a few years back around 2000. That and $1 buys you a Coke. The very fact that OPEC can still manipulate prices in the U.S. tells me everything I need to know. We are far from energy independence. I think it is best NOT to try and drag politics into this discussion. Let's stick to aviation..


If you read the article I linked it states the trend toward energy independence in 2019 began in 2005. Not one year or one coke or whatever silly analogy you want to use. The lack of demand during the pandemic had nothing to do with gaining energy independence in 2019 as there was no pandemic in 2019.
 
Rocketman1972
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:26 am

flyPIT & IndyHoosier, I have no problem with debating the issue. It's an interesting one, and I'm all for energy Independence. However, I agree, let's try to keep the conversation centered on aviation, and even when we deviate let's keep it polite and civil. We've had enough trolling on this thread in the past.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:06 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Also record breaking weekend ahead for IND, what pandemic?:

"Air travel is expected to hit a record high at the Indianapolis International Airport this weekend with fall break travelers."

“We’ve only seen that level of passenger traffic a handful of times since the new terminal opened in 2008”

https://www.wthr.com/article/money/busi ... 49b9095fe6


Good grief:

Image
https://www.indianapolisairport.com/
 
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ilive4planes
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:38 pm

Saw GlobalX land at IND this Morning and it took off around 7am anyone know why it was here?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:20 pm

Weird "concessions" made by the airport authority:

- The Starbucks in baggage claim & Ben's soft pretzel location in concourse A will both be eliminated.
- Additionally the South Bend Chocolate space will now remain empty since Starbucks isn't moving, and since the existing Starbucks isn't moving, the No Boundaries store isn't coming
- Construction on Hot Box, Circle City Brewery, & the Social Cantina delayed until mid-2023, among other delays

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1013124258

The food options flying through IND this week were abysmal, multiple people were asking IAA staff where they could eat post-security since the extremely limited options have crazy waitt imes + are mostly sit-down restaurants.

Crazy that the airport would agree to some of this when traffic is literally breaking records, and the parking garage is filled. You aren't going to win airport of the year awards if people can't eat.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:06 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Weird "concessions" made by the airport authority:

- The Starbucks in baggage claim & Ben's soft pretzel location in concourse A will both be eliminated.
- Additionally the South Bend Chocolate space will now remain empty since Starbucks isn't moving, and since the existing Starbucks isn't moving, the No Boundaries store isn't coming
- Construction on Hot Box, Circle City Brewery, & the Social Cantina delayed until mid-2023, among other delays

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1013124258

The food options flying through IND this week were abysmal, multiple people were asking IAA staff where they could eat post-security since the extremely limited options have crazy waitt imes + are mostly sit-down restaurants.

Crazy that the airport would agree to some of this when traffic is literally breaking records, and the parking garage is filled. You aren't going to win airport of the year awards if people can't eat.

Doesn’t matter what the food options are, if they cannot be staffed.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:11 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Weird "concessions" made by the airport authority:

- The Starbucks in baggage claim & Ben's soft pretzel location in concourse A will both be eliminated.
- Additionally the South Bend Chocolate space will now remain empty since Starbucks isn't moving, and since the existing Starbucks isn't moving, the No Boundaries store isn't coming
- Construction on Hot Box, Circle City Brewery, & the Social Cantina delayed until mid-2023, among other delays

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1013124258

The food options flying through IND this week were abysmal, multiple people were asking IAA staff where they could eat post-security since the extremely limited options have crazy waitt imes + are mostly sit-down restaurants.

Crazy that the airport would agree to some of this when traffic is literally breaking records, and the parking garage is filled. You aren't going to win airport of the year awards if people can't eat.

Doesn’t matter what the food options are, if they cannot be staffed.


That's not IAAs problem, that's the operators problem, they are the ones who entered into the contracts that IAA is letting them off the hook from.

It's not just a customer experience thing, those operators are revenue generators for the airport. Less revenue from retail means more revenue needs to come from somewhere else or else you must raise the rates for airlines (which is what you don't want to do)
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:37 pm

The operators aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs doing this for the fun of it - they don't have the labor pool knocking on their door to make your wish list happen. Similar situations in a number of other businesses up and down central Indiana.

Read the room.
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:38 pm

Thanks for updating the concession. IND pre-security dining option is one of the best for the size with affordable choices (McD & Chick Fil A) and almost no price mark-up. Post-security choice has always been less optimal (local fancy but pricey slow) so many of those who are used to the airport eat something before security. But that's not an option when TSA line is long, and those less familiar with the airport may bypass pre-security dining assuming there's another fast food option inside.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:05 pm

stlgph wrote:
The operators aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs doing this for the fun of it - they don't have the labor pool knocking on their door to make your wish list happen. Similar situations in a number of other businesses up and down central Indiana.

Read the room.


What do you mean "wish list??"

They are the ones who agreed to operate those restaurants/stores, not me.

The operator(s) had no leverage in this situation since they signed the leases for in some cases 10+ years, it's the airport that agreed to let them out of some of their agreements as gestures of good faith. If the operators simply didn't open these restaurants/stores they would still be obligated to pay IND. Keep in mind, I also understand deferring payments or waiving payments in 2020 and early 2021 when traffic was abysmal, but you can't and shouldn't do that forever.

What's your solution? Let operators walk away from lease agreements, and let them drive up revenue at their remaining stores through raising prices given lack of limited alternative options, while further lowering the customer experience?

It would be one thing if they renegotiated the operator agreements to lower the payments operators must make to IND, which would allow operators to raise wages and make these jobs more enticing without impacting the bottom line. But to completely allow operators to leave airport spots vacant, while travel is at record levels and after a 2+ year bidding process is short righted and quite odd from IND's perspective.

What's it going to be like 2 years from now, with many stores/restaurants still shuttered, if travel is already high now?

HeeseokKoo wrote:
Thanks for updating the concession. IND pre-security dining option is one of the best for the size with affordable choices (McD & Chick Fil A) and almost no price mark-up. Post-security choice has always been less optimal (local fancy but pricey slow) so many of those who are used to the airport eat something before security. But that's not an option when TSA line is long, and those less familiar with the airport may bypass pre-security dining assuming there's another fast food option inside.


Yeah agreed, it's nice that IND has those pre-security options, but the lack of options post-security becomes a problem especially when delays/cancellations happen. That's part of what that "concessions refresh" program was trying to fix.

I can't imagine what Concourse B was like last week with the Southwest Airlines debacle.

There are currently 2 food places (non-coffee shop places) in Concourse A, and looking it up one is only open 6am-2pm. So only harry & izzy's is open 11am-6pm. Concourse B is a little better, but it's still very bad.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:18 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
The operators aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs doing this for the fun of it - they don't have the labor pool knocking on their door to make your wish list happen. Similar situations in a number of other businesses up and down central Indiana.

Read the room.


What do you mean "wish list??"

They are the ones who agreed to operate those restaurants/stores, not me.

The operator(s) had no leverage in this situation since they signed the leases for in some cases 10+ years, it's the airport that agreed to let them out of some of their agreements as gestures of good faith. If the operators simply didn't open these restaurants/stores they would still be obligated to pay IND. Keep in mind, I also understand deferring payments or waiving payments in 2020 and early 2021 when traffic was abysmal, but you can't and shouldn't do that forever.

What's your solution? Let operators walk away from lease agreements, and let them drive up revenue at their remaining stores through raising prices given lack of limited alternative options, while further lowering the customer experience?

It would be one thing if they renegotiated the operator agreements to lower the payments operators must make to IND, which would allow operators to raise wages and make these jobs more enticing without impacting the bottom line. But to completely allow operators to leave airport spots vacant, while travel is at record levels and after a 2+ year bidding process is short righted and quite odd from IND's perspective.

What's it going to be like 2 years from now, with many stores/restaurants still shuttered, if travel is already high now?


They can't make people come work. I've listened in on other airports commission meetings and they have the same issues. They hold job fares every month along with raising wages and still can't fill enough positions to open everything back up. Just like how other non airport restaurants and grocery stores are closing early or just not opening some days to give staff a break.

They aren't out there not opening places on purpose to "raise prices elsewhere" they would much rather have everything open because they are missing out on a bunch of revenue. It all comes down to lack of staff which isn't just and IND problem.

I don't think a little goodwill from the airport to work with their partners while they try to staff back up is all that bad. Maybe they could do a better job trying to make some workarounds... Vino Volo is serving coffee in the mornings at some airports to help work around starbucks and other coffee service issues. But I don't think IND is in some boat by themselves on this.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:49 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:
The operators aren't sitting around twiddling their thumbs doing this for the fun of it - they don't have the labor pool knocking on their door to make your wish list happen. Similar situations in a number of other businesses up and down central Indiana.

Read the room.


What do you mean "wish list??"

They are the ones who agreed to operate those restaurants/stores, not me.

The operator(s) had no leverage in this situation since they signed the leases for in some cases 10+ years, it's the airport that agreed to let them out of some of their agreements as gestures of good faith. If the operators simply didn't open these restaurants/stores they would still be obligated to pay IND. Keep in mind, I also understand deferring payments or waiving payments in 2020 and early 2021 when traffic was abysmal, but you can't and shouldn't do that forever.

What's your solution? Let operators walk away from lease agreements, and let them drive up revenue at their remaining stores through raising prices given lack of limited alternative options, while further lowering the customer experience?

It would be one thing if they renegotiated the operator agreements to lower the payments operators must make to IND, which would allow operators to raise wages and make these jobs more enticing without impacting the bottom line. But to completely allow operators to leave airport spots vacant, while travel is at record levels and after a 2+ year bidding process is short righted and quite odd from IND's perspective.

What's it going to be like 2 years from now, with many stores/restaurants still shuttered, if travel is already high now?


They can't make people come work. I've listened in on other airports commission meetings and they have the same issues. They hold job fares every month along with raising wages and still can't fill enough positions to open everything back up. Just like how other non airport restaurants and grocery stores are closing early or just not opening some days to give staff a break.

They aren't out there not opening places on purpose to "raise prices elsewhere" they would much rather have everything open because they are missing out on a bunch of revenue. It all comes down to lack of staff which isn't just and IND problem.

I don't think a little goodwill from the airport to work with their partners while they try to staff back up is all that bad. Maybe they could do a better job trying to make some workarounds... Vino Volo is serving coffee in the mornings at some airports to help work around starbucks and other coffee service issues. But I don't think IND is in some boat by themselves on this.


I'm not saying it is a solely IND issue, I'm saying the solutions put forth by IND are not good:

a) I'm not saying they aren't opening stores to raise prices, but any operator who is savvy business wise would raise prices in this scenario. I mean in the next 1-2 years we are going to be in a situation where travel will be higher than 2019, with 1/3 to 1/2 of stores not even open. Also the goal is margin not revenue, (no idea on exact numbers) but if you can do the volume/revenues of 2 stores by only operating 1, you are going to only open 1 every time.

b) If short-term labor constraints is the issue, then it makes no sense to allow operators to permanently/indefinitely leave three locations vacant and delay openings until 2024, 3 years from now....

c) If labor is the issue, call it out as the issue. No where in the 40 page document do they mention labor. According to them they negotiated all of this in late 2020 and early 2021 when travel was still depressed.
Last edited by Midwestindy on Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:53 pm

So, let me get this straight.....there's a massive across-the-board labor shortage affecting businesses right and left, especially small businesses which are now being forced to reduce operating days and hours, cutting needed income, all to keep the current, dedicated, still showing up for work staff sane and rested, and YOU'RE worried that the Indianapolis Airport isn't going to win some "best airport for whatever the survey is" award because someone can't get a damn Starbucks?

Amazing.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:43 pm

stlgph wrote:
So, let me get this straight.....there's a massive across-the-board labor shortage affecting businesses right and left, especially small businesses which are now being forced to reduce operating days and hours, cutting needed income, all to keep the current, dedicated, still showing up for work staff sane and rested, and YOU'RE worried that the Indianapolis Airport isn't going to win some "best airport for whatever the survey is" award because someone can't get a damn Starbucks?

Amazing.


I mean this is an Indianapolis aviation forum.....is it not? So yes...I will bring up things occurring at IND...

IND didn't win any of those awards you are referring to in 2020 or 2021, so that isn't the issue.

The issue is there is poor foresight on IND's part in planning for the next 5+ years. The labor shortage (which again, they don't blame this for) could be a 6 month or 5 year issue, but either way the airport is locked into unfavorable 10+ year agreements when they could have extended the leniency period of the existing agreement in 6 month or 1 year increments.

Again I ask, your solution is what again? Just let operators out of their leases and let shops/restaurants sit vacant indefinitely?
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:14 pm

I'm not suprised. Working at an airport shop would be last on my list of places if you had an option (which they now do) Imagine the hassle of getting there, going thru whatever security they go thru, and then heading out with the same long commute? You could work at any local place (maybe a mile or 2 drive) and park your car 50 feet from your work station. I remember the hassle of the employee shuttle. No thanks.
Maybe if you offered $20 -$25 per hour you could staff. Welcome NYC prices in IND.
 
se210
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:52 pm

ilive4planes wrote:
Saw GlobalX land at IND this Morning and it took off around 7am anyone know why it was here?

N277GX Airbus A321-231 #2480


Not certain why it was at IND but here are the inbound and outbound flights:

GX102 MIA (Dep:10/13/21 23:11 EDT) to IND (Arr:10/14/2021 01:28 EDT)
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/GXA102/history/20211014/0200Z/KMIA/KIND

GX611 IND (Dep:10/14/21 07:24 EDT) to BWI (Arr:10/14/2021 08:34 EDT)
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/GXA611/history/20211014/1100Z/KIND/KBWI

N277GX flights on 10/14/21
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a2c129&lat=24.558&lon=-79.339&zoom=4.0&showTrace=2021-10-14
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:31 pm

UA adding back mainline to IND-EWR in November

-------------------
July LFs

AS IND-SEA-90.7%

G4 IND-LAX 90.4%
G4 IND-BOS-90.3%
G4 IND-SFB-89.4%
G4 IND-LAS-89.2%
G4 IND-AUS-88.2%
G4 IND-JAX-86.6%
G4 IND-PIE-86.5%
G4 IND-SRQ-80.1%
G4 IND-PGD-79.9%
G4 IND-FLL-74.4%
G4 IND-MYR-71.8%
G4 IND-SAV-68.4%
G4 IND-PBI-68.1%
G4 IND-CHS-67.7%
G4 IND-VPS-59.9%

AA IND-PHX-92.0%
AA IND-LAX-91.5%
AA IND-DFW-89.7%
AA IND-CLT-86.9%
AA IND-MCO-84.7%
AA IND-PHL-81.9%
AA IND-MIA-80.4%
AA IND-DCA-80.3%

DL IND-LAX-88.5%
DL IND-ATL-83.2%
DL IND-MSP-81.3%
DL IND-JFK-72.0%
DL IND-DTW-66.9%

F9 IND-DEN-84.3%
F9 IND-MCO-82.5%
F9 IND-LAS-78.0%

WN IND-PHX-94.2%
WN IND-LAS-92.8%
WN IND-DEN-92.1%
WN IND-DAL-90.1%
WN IND-AUS-89.9%
WN IND-RSW-86.8%
WN IND-HOU-86.2%
WN IND-MCO-84.5%
WN IND-ATL-84.3%
WN IND-BWI-82.0%
WN IND-TPA-81.5%
——
Big gap
——
WN IND-MYR-62.2%
WN IND-FLL-61.4%
WN IND-MIA-60.8%
WN IND-SRQ-56.2%
WN IND-ECP-51.6%

NK IND-LAS-94.7%
NK IND-MCO-89.7%
NK IND-FLL-83.9%
NK IND-RSW-81.0%
NK IND-TPA-72.1%
NK IND-PNS-43.5%

SY IND-MSP-64.0%

UA IND-DEN-91.1%
UA IND-EWR-88.7%
UA IND-IAH-85.0%
UA IND-PWM-81.3%
UA IND-IAD-80.7%
UA IND-CHS-72.6%
UA IND-HHH-63.2%

AA+DL IND-BOS-82.4%
AA+UA IND-ORD-78.0%
AA+DL IND-LGA-74.4%
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 369
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:09 pm

South Florida's interesting. So AA is blasting WN on IND-MIA and NK is blasting them on IND-FLL. Those figures can't be nice to read at WN HQ.
 
COSPN
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:51 pm

As I have said before many times IND should pay for a bus to operate from midnight to 5am so Airport workers can ride from downtown to the airport for work …lots of people in Indy want jobs airport has many but most low wage workers can’t afford a car.. and the Indygo bus schedule and route is a joke…

This will work until the pipe dream Indy Airport Amtrak station opens in 10 years…

Airport is not just a runway needs 24 access to the city via bus
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:12 pm

AS IND-SEA going back to 2x daily next summer
 
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ilive4planes
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:41 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
AS IND-SEA going back to 2x daily next summer


Second flight gonna be a redeye?
 
Indy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:26 pm

stlgph wrote:
So, let me get this straight.....there's a massive across-the-board labor shortage affecting businesses right and left, especially small businesses which are now being forced to reduce operating days and hours, cutting needed income, all to keep the current, dedicated, still showing up for work staff sane and rested, and YOU'RE worried that the Indianapolis Airport isn't going to win some "best airport for whatever the survey is" award because someone can't get a damn Starbucks?

Amazing.


I don't believe anyone is forcing anyone to cut business hours. I think businesses have exploited the pandemic to justify cutting hours and reducing staff. The labor shortage is self inflicted. I have no sympathy for retailers. The workers finally realized they don't have to be treated like dirt for slave wages. Workers are overworked, underpaid, and forced to work in terrible conditions. The system was going to break eventually. Retailers can fix the problem by paying a better wage and fixing working conditions. But they won't. Just look at Walmart if you want to see how the pandemic has been exploited for corporate gain. The excuse for cutting store hours was to give employees time to clean/sanitize and stock shelves. None of that happened. Instead of using that time after hours to do those things, they just use their limited staff to half way stock shelves during their newly reduced operating hours. They overwork their employees and treat them like crap. No wonder no one will stay.
 
garybow
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:10 pm

I would have never guessed that Portland Maine flight would do that well.
Midwestindy wrote:
UA adding back mainline to IND-EWR in November

-------------------
July LFs

AS IND-SEA-90.7%

G4 IND-LAX 90.4%
G4 IND-BOS-90.3%
G4 IND-SFB-89.4%
G4 IND-LAS-89.2%
G4 IND-AUS-88.2%
G4 IND-JAX-86.6%
G4 IND-PIE-86.5%
G4 IND-SRQ-80.1%
G4 IND-PGD-79.9%
G4 IND-FLL-74.4%
G4 IND-MYR-71.8%
G4 IND-SAV-68.4%
G4 IND-PBI-68.1%
G4 IND-CHS-67.7%
G4 IND-VPS-59.9%

AA IND-PHX-92.0%
AA IND-LAX-91.5%
AA IND-DFW-89.7%
AA IND-CLT-86.9%
AA IND-MCO-84.7%
AA IND-PHL-81.9%
AA IND-MIA-80.4%
AA IND-DCA-80.3%

DL IND-LAX-88.5%
DL IND-ATL-83.2%
DL IND-MSP-81.3%
DL IND-JFK-72.0%
DL IND-DTW-66.9%

F9 IND-DEN-84.3%
F9 IND-MCO-82.5%
F9 IND-LAS-78.0%

WN IND-PHX-94.2%
WN IND-LAS-92.8%
WN IND-DEN-92.1%
WN IND-DAL-90.1%
WN IND-AUS-89.9%
WN IND-RSW-86.8%
WN IND-HOU-86.2%
WN IND-MCO-84.5%
WN IND-ATL-84.3%
WN IND-BWI-82.0%
WN IND-TPA-81.5%
——
Big gap
——
WN IND-MYR-62.2%
WN IND-FLL-61.4%
WN IND-MIA-60.8%
WN IND-SRQ-56.2%
WN IND-ECP-51.6%

NK IND-LAS-94.7%
NK IND-MCO-89.7%
NK IND-FLL-83.9%
NK IND-RSW-81.0%
NK IND-TPA-72.1%
NK IND-PNS-43.5%

SY IND-MSP-64.0%

UA IND-DEN-91.1%
UA IND-EWR-88.7%
UA IND-IAH-85.0%
UA IND-PWM-81.3%
UA IND-IAD-80.7%
UA IND-CHS-72.6%
UA IND-HHH-63.2%

AA+DL IND-BOS-82.4%
AA+UA IND-ORD-78.0%
AA+DL IND-LGA-74.4%
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:18 pm

ilive4planes wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
AS IND-SEA going back to 2x daily next summer


Second flight gonna be a redeye?


Yep, should be interesting since G4 won't be able to use AS's gate now for its morning push.

garybow wrote:
I would have never guessed that Portland Maine flight would do that well.
Midwestindy wrote:
UA adding back mainline to IND-EWR in November

-------------------
July LFs

AS IND-SEA-90.7%

G4 IND-LAX 90.4%
G4 IND-BOS-90.3%
G4 IND-SFB-89.4%
G4 IND-LAS-89.2%
G4 IND-AUS-88.2%
G4 IND-JAX-86.6%
G4 IND-PIE-86.5%
G4 IND-SRQ-80.1%
G4 IND-PGD-79.9%
G4 IND-FLL-74.4%
G4 IND-MYR-71.8%
G4 IND-SAV-68.4%
G4 IND-PBI-68.1%
G4 IND-CHS-67.7%
G4 IND-VPS-59.9%

AA IND-PHX-92.0%
AA IND-LAX-91.5%
AA IND-DFW-89.7%
AA IND-CLT-86.9%
AA IND-MCO-84.7%
AA IND-PHL-81.9%
AA IND-MIA-80.4%
AA IND-DCA-80.3%

DL IND-LAX-88.5%
DL IND-ATL-83.2%
DL IND-MSP-81.3%
DL IND-JFK-72.0%
DL IND-DTW-66.9%

F9 IND-DEN-84.3%
F9 IND-MCO-82.5%
F9 IND-LAS-78.0%

WN IND-PHX-94.2%
WN IND-LAS-92.8%
WN IND-DEN-92.1%
WN IND-DAL-90.1%
WN IND-AUS-89.9%
WN IND-RSW-86.8%
WN IND-HOU-86.2%
WN IND-MCO-84.5%
WN IND-ATL-84.3%
WN IND-BWI-82.0%
WN IND-TPA-81.5%
——
Big gap
——
WN IND-MYR-62.2%
WN IND-FLL-61.4%
WN IND-MIA-60.8%
WN IND-SRQ-56.2%
WN IND-ECP-51.6%

NK IND-LAS-94.7%
NK IND-MCO-89.7%
NK IND-FLL-83.9%
NK IND-RSW-81.0%
NK IND-TPA-72.1%
NK IND-PNS-43.5%

SY IND-MSP-64.0%

UA IND-DEN-91.1%
UA IND-EWR-88.7%
UA IND-IAH-85.0%
UA IND-PWM-81.3%
UA IND-IAD-80.7%
UA IND-CHS-72.6%
UA IND-HHH-63.2%

AA+DL IND-BOS-82.4%
AA+UA IND-ORD-78.0%
AA+DL IND-LGA-74.4%


Exactly why it's annoying when people say, "if there was a market for XYZ route, someone would be flying it already."
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:56 pm

SY is doubling IND-MSP to 4x weekly next summer.


"Contour CEO Matt Chaifetz stood beaming among the gaggle at the gate of his airline's first flight out of Indianapolis last week, which was 70% full. Chaifetz said Contour is interested in adding more routes from Indianapolis in the future, though there are no solidified plans yet."

The airport had to convince Allegiant that expansion on the west coast would be worthwhile, as flights there are longer and more expensive to operate. The budget airline added a flight to Los Angeles in the spring, and another to Palm Springs begins in November

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 510362002/
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 093124001/

Indianapolis top 10 in the world in recovery for Kayak:

Image

https://www.kayak.com/flight-trends
 
User avatar
ilive4planes
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 6:09 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:23 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
SY is doubling IND-MSP to 4x weekly next summer.


"Contour CEO Matt Chaifetz stood beaming among the gaggle at the gate of his airline's first flight out of Indianapolis last week, which was 70% full. Chaifetz said Contour is interested in adding more routes from Indianapolis in the future, though there are no solidified plans yet."

The airport had to convince Allegiant that expansion on the west coast would be worthwhile, as flights there are longer and more expensive to operate. The budget airline added a flight to Los Angeles in the spring, and another to Palm Springs begins in November

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 510362002/
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 093124001/

Indianapolis top 10 in the world in recovery for Kayak:

Image

https://www.kayak.com/flight-trends


Would love to see Contour become a mini hub out of IND!!
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:42 pm

ilive4planes wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SY is doubling IND-MSP to 4x weekly next summer.


"Contour CEO Matt Chaifetz stood beaming among the gaggle at the gate of his airline's first flight out of Indianapolis last week, which was 70% full. Chaifetz said Contour is interested in adding more routes from Indianapolis in the future, though there are no solidified plans yet."

The airport had to convince Allegiant that expansion on the west coast would be worthwhile, as flights there are longer and more expensive to operate. The budget airline added a flight to Los Angeles in the spring, and another to Palm Springs begins in November

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 510362002/
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 093124001/

Indianapolis top 10 in the world in recovery for Kayak:

Image

https://www.kayak.com/flight-trends


Would love to see Contour become a mini hub out of IND!!


I think they need more aircraft for that. I think it would be more inline with a focus city, since you would need a decent amount of a/c and gates at the same time to operate a hub like operation.

If they can get a codeshare relationship with one of the big 3, I think that would really help. In the future I might envision taking MKE-IND instead of the usual ORD-IND if they got some mileage earning relationship similar to Cape Air.
 
User avatar
ilive4planes
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 6:09 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:07 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ilive4planes wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
SY is doubling IND-MSP to 4x weekly next summer.


"Contour CEO Matt Chaifetz stood beaming among the gaggle at the gate of his airline's first flight out of Indianapolis last week, which was 70% full. Chaifetz said Contour is interested in adding more routes from Indianapolis in the future, though there are no solidified plans yet."

The airport had to convince Allegiant that expansion on the west coast would be worthwhile, as flights there are longer and more expensive to operate. The budget airline added a flight to Los Angeles in the spring, and another to Palm Springs begins in November

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 510362002/
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 093124001/

Indianapolis top 10 in the world in recovery for Kayak:

Image

https://www.kayak.com/flight-trends


Would love to see Contour become a mini hub out of IND!!


I think they need more aircraft for that. I think it would be more inline with a focus city, since you would need a decent amount of a/c and gates at the same time to operate a hub like operation.

If they can get a codeshare relationship with one of the big 3, I think that would really help. In the future I might envision taking MKE-IND instead of the usual ORD-IND if they got some mileage earning relationship similar to Cape Air.


Is Contour planning on getting more used E135s?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:06 pm

Keep an eye out, there will likely be some upguages for the college football championship in January. Probably IND-ATL, and some one-off flights from whichever teams gets in.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:40 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
SY is doubling IND-MSP to 4x weekly next summer.


"Contour CEO Matt Chaifetz stood beaming among the gaggle at the gate of his airline's first flight out of Indianapolis last week, which was 70% full. Chaifetz said Contour is interested in adding more routes from Indianapolis in the future, though there are no solidified plans yet."

The airport had to convince Allegiant that expansion on the west coast would be worthwhile, as flights there are longer and more expensive to operate. The budget airline added a flight to Los Angeles in the spring, and another to Palm Springs begins in November

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 510362002/
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 093124001/

Indianapolis top 10 in the world in recovery for Kayak:

Image

https://www.kayak.com/flight-trends


Image
https://www.kayak.com/flight-trends
 
Indy
Posts: 5004
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:54 pm

Does that mean we are pretty much back to pre-covid travel levels?
 
kindeham
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:04 am

Indy wrote:
Does that mean we are pretty much back to pre-covid travel levels?


Not really. It just means almost the same number of people are looking to travel to Indianapolis as before (also looking is not neccesarily buying). Indianapolis experiences far more trips originating in Indianapolis than originate elsewhere. This metric doesn't capture the people in Indianapolis looking to travel elsewhere. The opposite would be a city like Orlando, that gets far more inbound traffic than outbound (that is not saying people fly in and never leave - that's the Hotel California - I mean their trips originate elsewhere).
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:33 pm

IND-TUS looks to be axed early after November (was supposed to go until Feb), and completely pulling out of Tuscon. IND was the last station running from TUS, and the Cares Act service requirements ended

IND-EYW has been extended through May, originally ended February

kindeham wrote:
Indy wrote:
Does that mean we are pretty much back to pre-covid travel levels?


Not really. It just means almost the same number of people are looking to travel to Indianapolis as before (also looking is not neccesarily buying). Indianapolis experiences far more trips originating in Indianapolis than originate elsewhere. This metric doesn't capture the people in Indianapolis looking to travel elsewhere. The opposite would be a city like Orlando, that gets far more inbound traffic than outbound (that is not saying people fly in and never leave - that's the Hotel California - I mean their trips originate elsewhere).


FWIW, IND saw its busiest day in its history last month.

Problem is off peak periods are still lower than normal since business travel is still down for now. Everything else is just as busy as before though.
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 756
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:52 am

Midwestindy wrote:
IND-TUS looks to be axed early after November (was supposed to go until Feb), and completely pulling out of Tuscon. IND was the last station running from TUS, and the Cares Act service requirements ended

IND-EYW has been extended through May, originally ended February

kindeham wrote:
Indy wrote:
Does that mean we are pretty much back to pre-covid travel levels?


Not really. It just means almost the same number of people are looking to travel to Indianapolis as before (also looking is not neccesarily buying). Indianapolis experiences far more trips originating in Indianapolis than originate elsewhere. This metric doesn't capture the people in Indianapolis looking to travel elsewhere. The opposite would be a city like Orlando, that gets far more inbound traffic than outbound (that is not saying people fly in and never leave - that's the Hotel California - I mean their trips originate elsewhere).


FWIW, IND saw its busiest day in its history last month.

Problem is off peak periods are still lower than normal since business travel is still down for now. Everything else is just as busy as before though.


Allegiant should restart IND-AZA. Should of kept AZA rather than starting Tucson in the first place.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:16 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Midwestindy, when will you have YTD passenger numbers I'm curious how IND is doing. Early in the year IND was ahead of SNA so I'm curious how IND is doing compared to SNA SAT CVG Ect

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


YTD July
MCI-3,962,415
CLE-3,798,231
SAT-3,793,490
IND-3,753,075
SNA-3,509,744
SJC-3,414,728
CVG-3,322,790
PIT-3,122,865
CMH-2,936,409


August 83.5% of 2019 passengers

IND YTD 4,401,728
IND YTD Cargo +29.4% from 2019

YTD August
MCI - 4,721,262
CLE - 4,523,665
SAT - 4,506,898
IND - 4,401,728
SNA - 4,341,266
SJC - 4,171,086
CVG - 3,928,840
PIT - 3,779,167
CMH - 3,495,171
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 0929112331
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1007160500

For comparison this is what this list looked like at the end of 2019
SJC - 15,650,444
MCI - 11,795,635
SNA - 10,656,986
SAT - 10,363,040
CLE - 10,040,817
PIT - 9,779,024
IND - 9,537,377
CVG - 9,103,554
CMH - 8,637,108


September passengers 84.8% of 2019, improvement from August

September Cargo +56.9% vs. 2019

September % of 2019
SY - inf.
NK - 214.6%
G4 - 122.2%
F9 - 102.8%
AA - 92.1%
AS - 90.4%
WN - 90.4%

UA - 75.9%
DL - 64.0%
AC - 0%

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1102223345
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1101151851

YTD September

MCI - 5,438,808
CLE - 5,170,576
SAT - N/A
IND - 5,023,831
SJC - 4,894,050
SNA - N/A
CVG - 4,482,768
PIT - 4,379,774
CMH - 4,045,190
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:42 pm

IND YTD figures look impressive. The wind they've put past CVG and PIT is particularly noteworthy.

SJC has been absolutely knee-capped though. I know California had it bad but those figures are really poor!
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:59 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
IND-TUS looks to be axed early after November (was supposed to go until Feb), and completely pulling out of Tuscon. IND was the last station running from TUS, and the Cares Act service requirements ended

IND-EYW has been extended through May, originally ended February

kindeham wrote:

Not really. It just means almost the same number of people are looking to travel to Indianapolis as before (also looking is not neccesarily buying). Indianapolis experiences far more trips originating in Indianapolis than originate elsewhere. This metric doesn't capture the people in Indianapolis looking to travel elsewhere. The opposite would be a city like Orlando, that gets far more inbound traffic than outbound (that is not saying people fly in and never leave - that's the Hotel California - I mean their trips originate elsewhere).


FWIW, IND saw its busiest day in its history last month.

Problem is off peak periods are still lower than normal since business travel is still down for now. Everything else is just as busy as before though.


Allegiant should restart IND-AZA. Should of kept AZA rather than starting Tucson in the first place.


Problem is they like to avoid competition as much as possible, although they do operate some pretty competitive routes out of AZA.

Will be interested to see what they do with the TUS aircraft next winter, since no TUS frees up a lot of aircraft time, although there aren't many warm destination alternatives to TUS that G4 doesn't already fly from IND.

For summer their playbook is much more open.

BangersAndMash wrote:
IND YTD figures look impressive. The wind they've put past CVG and PIT is particularly noteworthy.

SJC has been absolutely knee-capped though. I know California had it bad but those figures are really poor!


Pretty sad how low DL still is, especially since they are the one with a club in IND.
 
N292UX
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:34 pm

Indy wrote:
Does that mean we are pretty much back to pre-covid travel levels?

Depends on the location. For IND, it's close but not quite. I'd say it's at the ~80-90% level compared to 2019. However for places like SRQ and BZN, they're busier than they ever were pre-covid and will almost certainly set pax records in 2021. However, there's still a few routes from IND that were either permanently cut or resuming in the coming months. DL has yet to resume SLC/SEA and they will be doing so in 2022. CDG is not coming back.
 
ibthebigd
Posts: 464
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:04 pm

Could 2022 be the year Allegiant starts there own Mexico flying?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
kindeham
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:22 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
Could 2022 be the year Allegiant starts there own Mexico flying?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


They could - but opening up international operations is no easy feat (just ask Southwest). It seems Allegiant is intentionally avoiding it even - their route map uses the words "destinations near Canada" as if to say "I'm not touching you!"
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:06 pm

Some interesting developments:

NK's IND-MCO increases to 3x daily, 4 times a week in late April (obviously very tentative).
UA IND-IAD gets mainline back, February 11th

Midwestindy wrote:
Keep an eye out, there will likely be some upguages for the college football championship in January. Probably IND-ATL, and some one-off flights from whichever teams gets in.


Lol, all but 1 IND-ATL flight is already sold out for Jan 11. Probably Georgia fans buying tickets prematurely.

Don't think I've ever seen so many flights sell out so early.

Image
Image
 
kindeham
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:20 am

I'm going to make a wild guess and say Delta either throws some more planes on that route or upgauges for the 11th.
 
CRJ200flyer
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:52 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
UA adding back mainline to IND-EWR in November

-------------------
July LFs

G4 IND-BOS-90.3%

AA+DL IND-BOS-82.4%


Thanks for all the data. What was the frequency Allegiant had on IND-BOS? Hope JetBlue sees these numbers and finally adds Indy next year, though I don’t know how that would play out with the NEA now (hope that thing gets torn up between the DOJ lawsuit and Union grievance/scope violation issue).
 
jplatts
Posts: 5297
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:22 pm

WN re-adding IND-MDW nonstop service might be a possibility as
(a) the resumption of WN IND-MDW nonstop service would provide easier connectivity to some other Midwestern cities on WN,
(b) WN had a high percentage of connecting traffic and very little O&D on MDW-CVG/GRR in Q2 2021,
(c) WN had better load factors on IND-MDW than on CVG-MDW or GRR-MDW in 2019, and
(d) WN had stated in earnings calls that it was planning on restoring more of its network.

Here were the load factors to MDW from CVG/GRR/IND in 2019:
CVG-MDW - 66.94%
GRR-MDW - 74.20%
IND-MDW - 75.99%
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6518
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:04 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
UA adding back mainline to IND-EWR in November

-------------------
July LFs

G4 IND-BOS-90.3%

AA+DL IND-BOS-82.4%


Thanks for all the data. What was the frequency Allegiant had on IND-BOS? Hope JetBlue sees these numbers and finally adds Indy next year, though I don’t know how that would play out with the NEA now (hope that thing gets torn up between the DOJ lawsuit and Union grievance/scope violation issue).


They were running IND-BOS 2x weekly A320 (I think MON/FRI).

JetBlue won't add IND now though, since they codeshare with AA on the IND-BOS route.

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