BangersAndMash wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

Not disputing any of your arguments, but I'd still like to see more from AS. While AUS/IND is not an apples to apples comparison, I agree, the 2 markets share the growth potential and have no dominant airline. Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.

“ Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.”

I’m going to say this isn’t correct. The most promising Midwestern market for AS to invest resources would be STL. Over 2-million more annual passengers vs IND and OneWorld partner AA already has a large presence and still growing. After STL maybe IND.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Here's why:
- AA has actually a larger network out of IND (14 destinations) than out of STL (11 destinations currently - 12 once Boston comes online)
- AA's market share at IND is larger than what it is at STL (over 20% vs. around 15%)
- IND is growing much faster than STL
- STL is WN territory (60%+ market share), the best AA can hope for is legacy of choice - there are simply more opportunities at IND as no single carrier is dominant there

I'd say IND would also be more attractive than STL to an international carrier like BA should TATL ever come.

IND may have 2 routes more than STL but AA offers way more capacity into STL. Using tomorrow:
IND-DFW: 4x mainline
STL-DFW: 7x mainline

IND-ORD: 7 all AA Eagle
STL-ORD: 5 AA Eagle and 1 mainline

IND-CLT: 5 AA Eagle and 1 mainline
STL-CLT: 5 mainline

IND-PHL: 5 Eagle
STL-PHL: 3 Eagle

IND-MIA: 1 mainline, 1 Eagle
STL-MIA: 1 mainline, 1 Eagle

IND-PHX: 2 mainline
STL-PHX: 2 mainline

IND-LAX: 1 mainline
STL-LAX: 2 mainline

IND-DCA: 4 Eagle
STL-DCA: 3 Eagle

I count 9 mainline AA flights @ IND and 18 mainline AA flights @ STL.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

“ Of all the Midwestern markets where AS could invest resources, IND is probably the most promising. And AS has been talking of becoming more of a national airline. Well there's your chance.”

I’m going to say this isn’t correct. The most promising Midwestern market for AS to invest resources would be STL. Over 2-million more annual passengers vs IND and OneWorld partner AA already has a large presence and still growing. After STL maybe IND.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Here's why:
- AA has actually a larger network out of IND (14 destinations) than out of STL (11 destinations currently - 12 once Boston comes online)
- AA's market share at IND is larger than what it is at STL (over 20% vs. around 15%)
- IND is growing much faster than STL
- STL is WN territory (60%+ market share), the best AA can hope for is legacy of choice - there are simply more opportunities at IND as no single carrier is dominant there

I'd say IND would also be more attractive than STL to an international carrier like BA should TATL ever come.

IND may have 2 routes more than STL but AA offers way more capacity into STL. Using tomorrow:
IND-DFW: 4x mainline
STL-DFW: 7x mainline

IND-ORD: 7 all AA Eagle
STL-ORD: 5 AA Eagle and 1 mainline

IND-CLT: 5 AA Eagle and 1 mainline
STL-CLT: 5 mainline

IND-PHL: 5 Eagle
STL-PHL: 3 Eagle

IND-MIA: 1 mainline, 1 Eagle
STL-MIA: 1 mainline, 1 Eagle

IND-PHX: 2 mainline
STL-PHX: 2 mainline

IND-LAX: 1 mainline
STL-LAX: 2 mainline

IND-DCA: 4 Eagle
STL-DCA: 3 Eagle

I count 9 mainline AA flights @ IND and 18 mainline AA flights @ STL.

AA at IND & STL are similar capacity, certainly one is not way more capacity than the other.

For example on October 15th:
IND: 4168 seats
STL: 4076 seats

IND is more RJ heavy due to the YX pilot, MX, and FA facility, STL is more mainline heavy due to the AA line MX and FA base.

Speaking of YX, they are planning a brand-new HQ in the Indy suburb of Carmel:

"The project will include a high-tech training facility for pilots, technicians, flight attendants and other positions within the airline, the expansion of an adjacent hotel and a new parking garage with commercial amenities on the first floor and multifamily living above. The move consolidates training programs now located in Cincinnati, St. Louis, Indianapolis and several other locations."



https://www.ibj.com/articles/republic-a ... long-us-31

Midwestindy wrote:

Speaking of YX, they are planning a brand-new HQ in the Indy suburb of Carmel:

"The project will include a high-tech training facility for pilots, technicians, flight attendants and other positions within the airline, the expansion of an adjacent hotel and a new parking garage with commercial amenities on the first floor and multifamily living above. The move consolidates training programs now located in Cincinnati, St. Louis, Indianapolis and several other locations."



https://www.ibj.com/articles/republic-a ... long-us-31

I think it's safe to assume that "struggling retail development" is the plaza with the old Office Depot that's next to the Hampton Inn.

This has been in the works since they announced the new runway project for FEDEX. The almost new training center will have to be torn down for it.

They were originally looking at a site near Amazon in Whitestown, but this makes more sense., especially considering how the expanded US31 has left Hamilton Center all but cut off from easy highway access. The on-site hotel was the likely deciding factor, as well as highway visibility.

FlyingElvii wrote:

This has been in the works since they announced the new runway project for FEDEX. The almost new training center will have to be torn down for it.

They were originally looking at a site near Amazon in Whitestown, but this makes more sense., especially considering how the expanded US31 has left Hamilton Center all but cut off from easy highway access. The on-site hotel was the likely deciding factor, as well as highway visibility.

I believe the training center wouldn't be impacted if they actuallybuild another runway. It's basically over the approach end of current runway 5R.

GSOtoIND wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

This has been in the works since they announced the new runway project for FEDEX. The almost new training center will have to be torn down for it.

They were originally looking at a site near Amazon in Whitestown, but this makes more sense., especially considering how the expanded US31 has left Hamilton Center all but cut off from easy highway access. The on-site hotel was the likely deciding factor, as well as highway visibility.

I believe the training center wouldn't be impacted if they actuallybuild another runway. It's basically over the approach end of current runway 5R.

There was a thread about this 4 yrs ago, when it was first proposed, the training center has to go, since it will interfere with the 5S/23S runway construction.

FlyingElvii wrote:

GSOtoIND wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

This has been in the works since they announced the new runway project for FEDEX. The almost new training center will have to be torn down for it.

They were originally looking at a site near Amazon in Whitestown, but this makes more sense., especially considering how the expanded US31 has left Hamilton Center all but cut off from easy highway access. The on-site hotel was the likely deciding factor, as well as highway visibility.

I believe the training center wouldn't be impacted if they actuallybuild another runway. It's basically over the approach end of current runway 5R.

There was a thread about this 4 yrs ago, when it was first proposed, the training center has to go, since it will interfere with the 5S/23S runway construction.

Which thread? It's weird because there was a warehouse just constructed even closer to the 3rd runway site, and there is also a FedEx warehouse even closer as well.

Midwestindy wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

GSOtoIND wrote:

I believe the training center wouldn't be impacted if they actuallybuild another runway. It's basically over the approach end of current runway 5R.

There was a thread about this 4 yrs ago, when it was first proposed, the training center has to go, since it will interfere with the 5S/23S runway construction.

Which thread? It's weird because there was a warehouse just constructed even closer to the 3rd runway site, and there is also a FedEx warehouse even closer as well.

While I can't speak to the other two structures, when I worked at the YX TC, we were told in multiple town halls that the TC, despite being so new would only have a few more years before we moved again due to the runway. They typically indicated at the time, though, that they were closing in on some land on airport property north of I-70, so I was surprised to see Carmel be the final location. However, YX has also rapidly outgrown that TC. They didn't plan the size particularly well. We were in a constant space crunch. This will also be good as it will include facilities for simulators. It has always puzzled me that a company the size of YX didn't own their own sims, particularly given they effectively fly a single aircraft type.

Does Anyone know if United is going all Mainline on Denver starting October 1st? Cause Express is ending it?

So is IND actively moving / planning on building the runway south of I/70? Or still 20 years out?

ilive4planes wrote:

Does Anyone know if United is going all Mainline on Denver starting October 1st? Cause Express is ending it?

For now, until UA's IND-DEN inevitably goes back to 3x daily, then it'll likely see Express again

fedex1 wrote:

So is IND actively moving / planning on building the runway south of I/70? Or still 20 years out?

Yes, they are actively moving towards an additional runway

IND is on B6's website, took longer since IND-BOS was added before the NEA:

Midwestindy wrote:

Yes, they are actively moving towards an additional runway

Really? Actively? Not so sure about that. They have to reconstruct both of the parallels first, its much closer to "in the next 20 years" camp. Without a source it's just wishful thinking.

It isn't wishful thinking. IND just received a huge federal grant to help pay for construction. It is a done deal.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 825077001/

Midwestindy wrote:

IND is on B6's website, took longer since IND-BOS was added before the NEA:

Did B6 announce IND or did I miss something?

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

IND is on B6's website, took longer since IND-BOS was added before the NEA:

Did B6 announce IND or did I miss something?

They are AA flights. Well the RJ service I should say.

Indy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

IND is on B6's website, took longer since IND-BOS was added before the NEA:

Did B6 announce IND or did I miss something?

They are AA flights. Well the RJ service I should say.

Okay

Indy wrote:

It isn't wishful thinking. IND just received a huge federal grant to help pay for construction. It is a done deal.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/loc ... 825077001/

That grants funds multiple projects, but a third runway is not one of them. See here on the very bottom of page 1: https://www.faa.gov/airports/aip/2021_aip_grants/media/FY2021_AIP_grants_announced_09212021.pdf "Reconstruct Runway Reconstruct Taxiway." This is the first phase to reconstruct 5R-23L and TW D. Which is what I said in my first reply.

And, playing devil's advocate here, even if this grant was funding the third runway, which again it isn't, don't you think the airport and the Star would attempt to make that at least a little more obvious in their article?

It is probably a poor choice of wording by the Indy Star to say "The money will fund the initial construction phase of one of Indianapolis International Airport's runways". Calling it initial construction is very misleading. Rehabilitation or resurfacing would have been a much better choice of words. But I guess that should be expected from them.

AA's head of revenue, Vasu Raja, did an interesting webinar today:

Relevant to IND, he said Austin (p2p flying) is an example of where AA's network evolves to in the future, and he envisions a handful of cities similar to Austin in AA's network moving forward.

Essentially the thesis is
---
They aren't able to add many more frequencies to DFW/CLT, and the existing flights through these hubs are already very full. As a result they are growing them through guage now (like IND-CLT moving to 4x mainline)

As a result they are more comfortable overflying hubs, the example he used was AUS-BNA. Adding these routes that overfly hubs allowed them to free up capacity on the DFW flights from pax who would have been flying AUS-DFW-BNA, to generate more DFW availability for smaller O&D pairings. Not only that, but now they are able to command a higher fare on the nonstop option(AUS-BNA) than they would have with only 1-stop availability (like only AUS-DFW-BNA).

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors
AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

Midwestindy wrote:

AA's head of revenue, Vasu Raja, did an interesting webinar today:

Relevant to IND, he said Austin (p2p flying) is an example of where AA's network evolves to in the future, and he envisions a handful of cities similar to Austin in AA's network moving forward.

Essentially the thesis is
---
They aren't able to add many more frequencies to DFW/CLT, and the existing flights through these hubs are already very full. As a result they are growing them through guage now (like IND-CLT moving to 4x mainline)

As a result they are more comfortable overflying hubs, the example he used was AUS-BNA. Adding these routes that overfly hubs allowed them to free up capacity on the DFW flights from pax who would have been flying AUS-DFW-BNA, to generate more DFW availability for smaller O&D pairings. Not only that, but now they are able to command a higher fare on the nonstop option(AUS-BNA) than they would have with only 1-stop availability (like only AUS-DFW-BNA).

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors
AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

AA's head of revenue, Vasu Raja, did an interesting webinar today:

Relevant to IND, he said Austin (p2p flying) is an example of where AA's network evolves to in the future, and he envisions a handful of cities similar to Austin in AA's network moving forward.

Essentially the thesis is
---
They aren't able to add many more frequencies to DFW/CLT, and the existing flights through these hubs are already very full. As a result they are growing them through guage now (like IND-CLT moving to 4x mainline)

As a result they are more comfortable overflying hubs, the example he used was AUS-BNA. Adding these routes that overfly hubs allowed them to free up capacity on the DFW flights from pax who would have been flying AUS-DFW-BNA, to generate more DFW availability for smaller O&D pairings. Not only that, but now they are able to command a higher fare on the nonstop option(AUS-BNA) than they would have with only 1-stop availability (like only AUS-DFW-BNA).

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors
AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

Probably a bit early to make that statement. But I'd say on the strength of the new routes they've been adding this summer, it seems at the very least they are giving IND a hard look. Watch this space!

And of course even AUS is officially NOT a focus city for AA

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

AA's head of revenue, Vasu Raja, did an interesting webinar today:

Relevant to IND, he said Austin (p2p flying) is an example of where AA's network evolves to in the future, and he envisions a handful of cities similar to Austin in AA's network moving forward.

Essentially the thesis is
---
They aren't able to add many more frequencies to DFW/CLT, and the existing flights through these hubs are already very full. As a result they are growing them through guage now (like IND-CLT moving to 4x mainline)

As a result they are more comfortable overflying hubs, the example he used was AUS-BNA. Adding these routes that overfly hubs allowed them to free up capacity on the DFW flights from pax who would have been flying AUS-DFW-BNA, to generate more DFW availability for smaller O&D pairings. Not only that, but now they are able to command a higher fare on the nonstop option(AUS-BNA) than they would have with only 1-stop availability (like only AUS-DFW-BNA).

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors
AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

This is not exclusive to IND. Places like CVG,MCI & STL are getting these flights as well.

Indy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

IND is on B6's website, took longer since IND-BOS was added before the NEA:

Did B6 announce IND or did I miss something?

They are AA flights. Well the RJ service I should say.

JetBlue IT is really bad. They couldn't sell RJ codeshares for the longest time. Maybe they've worked that out now.

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

AA's head of revenue, Vasu Raja, did an interesting webinar today:

Relevant to IND, he said Austin (p2p flying) is an example of where AA's network evolves to in the future, and he envisions a handful of cities similar to Austin in AA's network moving forward.

Essentially the thesis is
---
They aren't able to add many more frequencies to DFW/CLT, and the existing flights through these hubs are already very full. As a result they are growing them through guage now (like IND-CLT moving to 4x mainline)

As a result they are more comfortable overflying hubs, the example he used was AUS-BNA. Adding these routes that overfly hubs allowed them to free up capacity on the DFW flights from pax who would have been flying AUS-DFW-BNA, to generate more DFW availability for smaller O&D pairings. Not only that, but now they are able to command a higher fare on the nonstop option(AUS-BNA) than they would have with only 1-stop availability (like only AUS-DFW-BNA).

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors
AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

I think there are a few cities they might try this in, which I highlighted.

IND needs 140 weekly mainline departures on April 5th to get insourced line MX. Not sure the requirements for a satellite base. But having those reduces the marginal cost of additional mainline flying.

pmanni1 wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

AA's head of revenue, Vasu Raja, did an interesting webinar today:

Relevant to IND, he said Austin (p2p flying) is an example of where AA's network evolves to in the future, and he envisions a handful of cities similar to Austin in AA's network moving forward.

Essentially the thesis is
---
They aren't able to add many more frequencies to DFW/CLT, and the existing flights through these hubs are already very full. As a result they are growing them through guage now (like IND-CLT moving to 4x mainline)

As a result they are more comfortable overflying hubs, the example he used was AUS-BNA. Adding these routes that overfly hubs allowed them to free up capacity on the DFW flights from pax who would have been flying AUS-DFW-BNA, to generate more DFW availability for smaller O&D pairings. Not only that, but now they are able to command a higher fare on the nonstop option(AUS-BNA) than they would have with only 1-stop availability (like only AUS-DFW-BNA).

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

This is not exclusive to IND. Places like CVG,MCI & STL are getting these flights as well.

To be fair, IND was one of the first. The p2p started pre-covid in 2019, as just AUS-SJC/BOS/SJD, and then AA added IND/RDU-BOS a couple weeks later. It wasn't until 2021 that some of the other cities saw service. Plus their Network & Revenue head called out IND as a market they wanted to grow in:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4e4b9e448e


But as I pointed out above, I don't think this is limited to IND.

What is a “inline maintenance” station? Wouldn’t IND need to grow a lot of mainline service to get to that point?

Midwestindy wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

This is not exclusive to IND. Places like CVG,MCI & STL are getting these flights as well.

To be fair, IND was one of the first. The p2p started pre-covid in 2019, as just AUS-SJC/BOS/SJD, and then AA added IND/RDU-BOS a couple weeks later. It wasn't until 2021 that some of the other cities saw service. Plus their Network & Revenue head called out IND as a market they wanted to grow in:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4e4b9e448e

But as I pointed out above, I don't think this is limited to IND.

I would add this:
- IND has service to both BOS and AUS (MCI for example will have service to BOS and NYC through B6 but not AA)
- IND has service to MCO and CUN, which some of these other stations don't have service to
- IND is one of the few in that group to have service to both LGA and JFK

Sure AA has been adding p2p from several other stations, but IND has now the largest network (14 destinations) after BOS, AUS, and RDU, tied with BNA. It counts for something. AA clearly sees more potential here than in some of these other stations.

fedex1 wrote:

What is a “inline maintenance” station? Wouldn’t IND need to grow a lot of mainline service to get to that point?

It's where they insource fleet service work

You need to average 140 weekly mainline departures, or 20 a day to become a new insourced station.

The placeholder schedule for April 5th has only 13 out of 49 departures as mainline.

This is the best bet to getting to 20 mainline departures:
DFW 6
CLT 4
PHX 2
LAX 2
MIA 2
ORD 2
PHL 2

Midwestindy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

AA's head of revenue, Vasu Raja, did an interesting webinar today:

Relevant to IND, he said Austin (p2p flying) is an example of where AA's network evolves to in the future, and he envisions a handful of cities similar to Austin in AA's network moving forward.

Essentially the thesis is
---
They aren't able to add many more frequencies to DFW/CLT, and the existing flights through these hubs are already very full. As a result they are growing them through guage now (like IND-CLT moving to 4x mainline)

As a result they are more comfortable overflying hubs, the example he used was AUS-BNA. Adding these routes that overfly hubs allowed them to free up capacity on the DFW flights from pax who would have been flying AUS-DFW-BNA, to generate more DFW availability for smaller O&D pairings. Not only that, but now they are able to command a higher fare on the nonstop option(AUS-BNA) than they would have with only 1-stop availability (like only AUS-DFW-BNA).

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

I think there are a few cities they might try this in, which I highlighted.

IND needs 140 weekly mainline departures on April 5th to get insourced line MX. Not sure the requirements for a satellite base. But having those reduces the marginal cost of additional mainline flying.

pmanni1 wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

This is not exclusive to IND. Places like CVG,MCI & STL are getting these flights as well.

To be fair, IND was one of the first. The p2p started pre-covid in 2019, as just AUS-SJC/BOS/SJD, and then AA added IND/RDU-BOS a couple weeks later. It wasn't until 2021 that some of the other cities saw service. Plus their Network & Revenue head called out IND as a market they wanted to grow in:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4e4b9e448e


But as I pointed out above, I don't think this is limited to IND.

Do you have an easy way to add seats to that chart? If not no big deal but I am curious.

What makes 140 the manic number to have a AA maintenance line at that airport?

Just asking questions. Trying to understand.

Magic *** not manic

DL is increasing IND-LGA to 6x daily, at least for November and December, while also reversing some of their capacity cuts by readding capacity back to ATL, MSP, DTW that they initially cut.

6x daily is the most I can remember them operating on the route in recent years.

Comparing December/November of 2019 to the same period of 2021:
IND-LGA going from 7x (AA+DL) to 10x (AA+DL)
IND-JFK going from 3x (AA+DL) to 5x (AA+DL)
IND-EWR staying at 7x (UA)
IND-DCA staying at 6x (AA)
IND-BOS going from 4x (DL) to 5x (AA+DL)

Slot squatting plus the NEA alliance is paying off for IND

fedex1 wrote:

What makes 140 the manic number to have a AA maintenance line at that airport?

Just asking questions. Trying to understand.

It's the # they put in the contract, some stations have under that number, but they were grandfathered into the contract.

I am by no means an expert on the fine details of maintenance contracts by the way.

Jshank83 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

So does this mean that AA is trying to build up a Focus City at IND?

I think there are a few cities they might try this in, which I highlighted.

IND needs 140 weekly mainline departures on April 5th to get insourced line MX. Not sure the requirements for a satellite base. But having those reduces the marginal cost of additional mainline flying.

pmanni1 wrote:

This is not exclusive to IND. Places like CVG,MCI & STL are getting these flights as well.

To be fair, IND was one of the first. The p2p started pre-covid in 2019, as just AUS-SJC/BOS/SJD, and then AA added IND/RDU-BOS a couple weeks later. It wasn't until 2021 that some of the other cities saw service. Plus their Network & Revenue head called out IND as a market they wanted to grow in:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 4e4b9e448e


But as I pointed out above, I don't think this is limited to IND.

Do you have an easy way to add seats to that chart? If not no big deal but I am curious.

Seat numbers aren't exact since the A321s are all over the place in terms of configuration, but should be fairly close.

I don't normally add seats since for the US3 since it just makes MCO, TPA, LAS, e.t.c. look like focus cities, since they have to run large guage aircraft to offset the lower yields (e.g. AUS is pretty close to MCO seat wise, and MCO/LAS were bigger than CVG & RDU seat wise when they were DL focus cities)

Totally understand MidWest, just was curious how the 140 number came about!

AA's passenger numbers might end up pretty close to WN this year in IND.

Looks like WN is getting clobbered in some of the competitive IND markets.

- WN cut PHX down to 1x daily after mid-August (ignoring Holiday or weekends), and it won't go back to 2x daily until next March(and that's tentative). Meanwhile, AA is operating B737+A321 on IND-PHX.
- WN IND-TPA is also down to 1x daily starting in November through Mid-January (ignoring Holiday or weekends). Meanwhile NK is increasing that to nearly 2x daily during that time.
- WN IND-FLL is gone during the week starting in November through Mid-January (ignoring Holiday or weekends). Meanwhile NK is daily and increasing to the A321
- For December WN will only be operating 4 routes at more than 1x daily, and only 1 of those will be 3x daily (IND-MCO)

(Excluding weekends/holidays)


I also find it ironic that they finally hired a Southwest corporate travel person for IND.....after they cut BOS, EWR, LAX, SAN, MCI, and OAK, plus cut their IND workforce

According to Wikipeda TUI Airways begins IND-LGW on May 27, 2022 this has to be a Lie?

ilive4planes wrote:

According to Wikipeda TUI Airways begins IND-LGW on May 27, 2022 this has to be a Lie?

It is unlikely to be true. I cannot find any sort of announcement. There is nothing listed on the airline's website. It isn't even listed on the LGW Wikipedia page. Also, they only fly to one location in the U.S. that I can find and it is the Orlando area for now and becoming MLB in March of 2022.

Indy wrote:

ilive4planes wrote:

According to Wikipeda TUI Airways begins IND-LGW on May 27, 2022 this has to be a Lie?

It is unlikely to be true. I cannot find any sort of announcement. There is nothing listed on the airline's website. It isn't even listed on the LGW Wikipedia page. Also, they only fly to one location in the U.S. that I can find and it is the Orlando area for now and becoming MLB in March of 2022.

I am convinced someone is trolling on the IND Wikipedia page. This has happened a couple times now (remember the Air Canada one). I removed it.

Midwestindy wrote:

ibthebigd wrote:

Midwestindy, when will you have YTD passenger numbers I'm curious how IND is doing. Early in the year IND was ahead of SNA so I'm curious how IND is doing compared to SNA SAT CVG Ect

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

YTD July
MCI-3,962,415
CLE-3,798,231
SAT-3,793,490
IND-3,753,075
SNA-3,509,744
SJC-3,414,728
CVG-3,322,790
PIT-3,122,865
CMH-2,936,409

August 83.5% of 2019 passengers

IND YTD 4,401,728
IND YTD Cargo +29.4% from 2019

YTD August
MCI - 4,721,262
CLE - 4,523,665
SAT - 4,506,898
IND - 4,401,728
SNA - N/A
SJC - 4,171,086
CVG - N/A
PIT - 3,779,167
CMH - 3,495,171
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 0929112331
https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 1007160500

For comparison this is what this list looked like at the end of 2019
SJC - 15,650,444
MCI - 11,795,635
SNA - 10,656,986
SAT - 10,363,040
CLE - 10,040,817
PIT - 9,779,024
IND - 9,537,377
CVG - 9,103,554
CMH - 8,637,108

An interesting member on this list...

HOLIDAY TRAVEL FORECAST: EXPEDIA REVEALS THE TOP TRENDING DESTINATIONS:

https://www.expediagroup.com/media/medi ... fault.aspx

MCI packs above it punch?!? They have 2 million more pax than IND! Impressive!!

Midwestindy wrote:

An interesting member on this list...

HOLIDAY TRAVEL FORECAST: EXPEDIA REVEALS THE TOP TRENDING DESTINATIONS:

https://www.expediagroup.com/media/medi ... fault.aspx

What is this based on. Rapid City is a top destination because of what? I’d doubt it’s top 100? In passengers.

Jshank83 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

An interesting member on this list...

HOLIDAY TRAVEL FORECAST: EXPEDIA REVEALS THE TOP TRENDING DESTINATIONS:

https://www.expediagroup.com/media/medi ... fault.aspx

What is this based on. Rapid City is a top destination because of what? I’d doubt it’s top 100? In passengers.

"Top destinations based on fastest-growing lodging demand on Expedia.com for the weeks of Thanksgiving and Christmas 2021 compared to the same time periods in 2019."

fedex1 wrote:

MCI packs above it punch?!? They have 2 million more pax than IND! Impressive!!

MCI is in a great spot since it don't have many decent sized airports nearby, allowing it to command a large swath of area in its passenger catchment. DSM is the closest decent sized airport, and it's nearly 200 miles away.

IND for example has, SDF to the south, CVG to the southeast, DAY to the east, FWA to the northeast, ORD/MDW to the northwest, and BMI/CMI to the west. All of these are closer or the same distance to IND, as MCI is to DSM.

Midwestindy wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

An interesting member on this list...

HOLIDAY TRAVEL FORECAST: EXPEDIA REVEALS THE TOP TRENDING DESTINATIONS:

https://www.expediagroup.com/media/medi ... fault.aspx

What is this based on. Rapid City is a top destination because of what? I’d doubt it’s top 100? In passengers.

"Top destinations based on fastest-growing lodging demand on Expedia.com for the weeks of Thanksgiving and Christmas 2021 compared to the same time periods in 2019."

fedex1 wrote:

MCI packs above it punch?!? They have 2 million more pax than IND! Impressive!!

MCI is in a great spot since it don't have many decent sized airports nearby, allowing it to command a large swath of area in its passenger catchment. DSM is the closest decent sized airport, and it's nearly 200 miles away.

IND for example has, SDF to the south, CVG to the southeast, DAY to the east, FWA to the northeast, ORD/MDW to the northwest, and BMI/CMI to the west. All of these are closer or the same distance to IND, as MCI is to DSM.

Shots fired at OMA which is 15 miles closer! haha

I'll be making a quick pit stop to IND, trying out the new BNA-IND Flight, we'll see how it goes.

Also Contour will be using Concourse B, hopefully B15 or B16 and not B4 or B5 so they don't get in the way of G4.

Midwestindy wrote:

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors
AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

Q2 2021 data is out:

Markets I thought were interesting:

IND-AUS - 131 PDEW, WN capturing lots of connections through AUS, AA was only (21 PDEW)
IND-SAN - 109 PDEW; WN leading still (40 PDEW), AA in second (33 PDEW), this feels like a market they would excel in

IND-RDU - 74 PDEW; AA and DL were tied on market share on this route, really a route that should have service.

IND-SAT - 62 PDEW; AA and WN were tied on market share on this route, we'll see how IND-AUS does. SAT seems to be struggling on new service, but IND-SAT is on SAT's wishlist

Others:
IND-SLC - 81 PDEW, so weird it took DL so long to bring this back
IND-SJU - 57 PDEW, likely boosted due to it being a US destination in the Caribbean
IND-MSY - 57 PDEW

Next opportunities for Contour should be:

IND-RDU (74 PDEW, and drop if another carrier adds)
IND-ORF-(33 PDEW)
IND-MCI (30 PDEW, ripe for stimulation, and PDEW should be ramping up)
IND-RIC (27 PDEW)
IND-OKC (26 PDEW)
IND-BDL (24 PDEW, old Onejet route with potential)
IND-MEM (21 PDEW)
IND-OMA (21 PDEW)

Next opportunities for Allegiant should be (based on Q2 PDEW):
IND-SAN - (109 PDEW, speaks for itself)
IND-PDX - (66 PDEW, extremely segmented market, ripe for G4 IMO)
IND-ORF - (33 PDEW, could be a sneaky route, still unsure given IND isn't traditionally strong to the Eastern beaches north of Florida

Midwestindy wrote:

I'll be making a quick pit stop to IND, trying out the new BNA-IND Flight, we'll see how it goes.

Also Contour will be using Concourse B, hopefully B15 or B16 and not B4 or B5 so they don't get in the way of G4.

Midwestindy wrote:

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Midwestindy wrote:

June 2021 Load Factors
AA --- Great loads, wouldn't be surprised to see more from IND-MCO
AA IND-DFW-91.9%
AA IND-LAX-90.6%
AA IND-PHX-89.9%
AA IND-CLT-89.2%
--NEW ROUTE--AA IND-MCO-85.2%
AA IND-DCA-84.4%
AA IND-PHL-82.6%
AA IND-MIA-82.6%

Q2 2021 data is out:

Markets I thought were interesting:

IND-AUS - 131 PDEW, WN capturing lots of connections through AUS, AA was only (21 PDEW)
IND-SAN - 109 PDEW; WN leading still (40 PDEW), AA in second (33 PDEW), this feels like a market they would excel in

IND-RDU - 74 PDEW; AA and DL were tied on market share on this route, really a route that should have service.

IND-SAT - 62 PDEW; AA and WN were tied on market share on this route, we'll see how IND-AUS does. SAT seems to be struggling on new service, but IND-SAT is on SAT's wishlist

Others:
IND-SLC - 81 PDEW, so weird it took DL so long to bring this back
IND-SJU - 57 PDEW, likely boosted due to it being a US destination in the Caribbean
IND-MSY - 57 PDEW

Next opportunities for Contour should be:

IND-RDU (74 PDEW, and drop if another carrier adds)
IND-ORF-(33 PDEW)
IND-MCI (30 PDEW, ripe for stimulation, and PDEW should be ramping up)
IND-RIC (27 PDEW)
IND-OKC (26 PDEW)
IND-BDL (24 PDEW, old Onejet route with potential)
IND-MEM (21 PDEW)
IND-OMA (21 PDEW)

Next opportunities for Allegiant should be (based on Q2 PDEW):
IND-SAN - (109 PDEW, speaks for itself)
IND-PDX - (66 PDEW, extremely segmented market, ripe for G4 IMO)
IND-ORF - (33 PDEW, could be a sneaky route, still unsure given IND isn't traditionally strong to the Eastern beaches north of Florida

I’ll be on Contour next week twice myself, BNA-IND-BNA. ( Thanks Contour for this service! Saves me the 5 1/2 hr drive each way!)
I could easily see them doing MCI if they can work another deal out. I am not so sure about PIT working out long term. I think BNA and MKE will be fine, if they can remain consistent though. The Pilot Shortage may be rearing it’s head again, as well, so I am sure that will play into any future plans as well.

FlyingElvii wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I'll be making a quick pit stop to IND, trying out the new BNA-IND Flight, we'll see how it goes.

Also Contour will be using Concourse B, hopefully B15 or B16 and not B4 or B5 so they don't get in the way of G4.

Midwestindy wrote:

---
Pre-COVID in IND, AA recognized this with IND-BOS, where ~50 passengers/day were connecting to fly IND-BOS.

Currently, IND-DFW/CLT appear to be reaching saturation based on LF and aircraft available. IND-CLT is heading to 4x mainline in the fall, but will likely never be fully mainline since AA will want to rotate 175s through IND and onto CLT.

Keep an eye out for the Q2 connecting data when its released next month, because if AA generates IND-BOS type market share I think they will bite on routes like IND-RDU/SAT/Florida that might overfly CLT or DFW.

Q2 2021 data is out:

Markets I thought were interesting:

IND-AUS - 131 PDEW, WN capturing lots of connections through AUS, AA was only (21 PDEW)
IND-SAN - 109 PDEW; WN leading still (40 PDEW), AA in second (33 PDEW), this feels like a market they would excel in

IND-RDU - 74 PDEW; AA and DL were tied on market share on this route, really a route that should have service.

IND-SAT - 62 PDEW; AA and WN were tied on market share on this route, we'll see how IND-AUS does. SAT seems to be struggling on new service, but IND-SAT is on SAT's wishlist

Others:
IND-SLC - 81 PDEW, so weird it took DL so long to bring this back
IND-SJU - 57 PDEW, likely boosted due to it being a US destination in the Caribbean
IND-MSY - 57 PDEW

Next opportunities for Contour should be:

IND-RDU (74 PDEW, and drop if another carrier adds)
IND-ORF-(33 PDEW)
IND-MCI (30 PDEW, ripe for stimulation, and PDEW should be ramping up)
IND-RIC (27 PDEW)
IND-OKC (26 PDEW)
IND-BDL (24 PDEW, old Onejet route with potential)
IND-MEM (21 PDEW)
IND-OMA (21 PDEW)

Next opportunities for Allegiant should be (based on Q2 PDEW):
IND-SAN - (109 PDEW, speaks for itself)
IND-PDX - (66 PDEW, extremely segmented market, ripe for G4 IMO)
IND-ORF - (33 PDEW, could be a sneaky route, still unsure given IND isn't traditionally strong to the Eastern beaches north of Florida

I’ll be on Contour next week twice myself, BNA-IND-BNA. ( Thanks Contour for this service! Saves me the 5 1/2 hr drive each way!)
I could easily see them doing MCI if they can work another deal out. I am not so sure about PIT working out long term. I think BNA and MKE will be fine, if they can remain consistent though. The Pilot Shortage may be rearing it’s head again, as well, so I am sure that will play into any future plans as well.

Airports listed in the deal are MCI, BNA, MKE, CLE, PIT, MEM, & RDU. So I could definitely see MCI, although likely with no additional money

https://secure.in.gov/apps/iedc/transpa ... 1dd830812f

AA missed its chance to go daily, now UA stepped in daily again on IND-RSW and now Saturdays on IND-MCO:

7 carriers on IND-Orlando

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... a-midwest/

Also record breaking weekend ahead for IND, what pandemic?:

"Air travel is expected to hit a record high at the Indianapolis International Airport this weekend with fall break travelers."

“We’ve only seen that level of passenger traffic a handful of times since the new terminal opened in 2008”

https://www.wthr.com/article/money/busi ... 49b9095fe6

Midwestindy wrote:

AA missed its chance to go daily, now UA stepped in daily again on IND-RSW and now Saturdays on IND-MCO:
7 carriers on IND-Orlando
https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... a-midwest/

With the loads being what they were, it'll be interesting to see if AA bites on IND-MCO.

Maybe we'll see RDU and TPA thrown in?

Midwestindy wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I'll be making a quick pit stop to IND, trying out the new BNA-IND Flight, we'll see how it goes.

Also Contour will be using Concourse B, hopefully B15 or B16 and not B4 or B5 so they don't get in the way of G4.



Q2 2021 data is out:

Markets I thought were interesting:

IND-AUS - 131 PDEW, WN capturing lots of connections through AUS, AA was only (21 PDEW)
IND-SAN - 109 PDEW; WN leading still (40 PDEW), AA in second (33 PDEW), this feels like a market they would excel in

IND-RDU - 74 PDEW; AA and DL were tied on market share on this route, really a route that should have service.

IND-SAT - 62 PDEW; AA and WN were tied on market share on this route, we'll see how IND-AUS does. SAT seems to be struggling on new service, but IND-SAT is on SAT's wishlist

Others:
IND-SLC - 81 PDEW, so weird it took DL so long to bring this back
IND-SJU - 57 PDEW, likely boosted due to it being a US destination in the Caribbean
IND-MSY - 57 PDEW

Next opportunities for Contour should be:

IND-RDU (74 PDEW, and drop if another carrier adds)
IND-ORF-(33 PDEW)
IND-MCI (30 PDEW, ripe for stimulation, and PDEW should be ramping up)
IND-RIC (27 PDEW)
IND-OKC (26 PDEW)
IND-BDL (24 PDEW, old Onejet route with potential)
IND-MEM (21 PDEW)
IND-OMA (21 PDEW)

Next opportunities for Allegiant should be (based on Q2 PDEW):
IND-SAN - (109 PDEW, speaks for itself)
IND-PDX - (66 PDEW, extremely segmented market, ripe for G4 IMO)
IND-ORF - (33 PDEW, could be a sneaky route, still unsure given IND isn't traditionally strong to the Eastern beaches north of Florida

I’ll be on Contour next week twice myself, BNA-IND-BNA. ( Thanks Contour for this service! Saves me the 5 1/2 hr drive each way!)
I could easily see them doing MCI if they can work another deal out. I am not so sure about PIT working out long term. I think BNA and MKE will be fine, if they can remain consistent though. The Pilot Shortage may be rearing it’s head again, as well, so I am sure that will play into any future plans as well.

Airports listed in the deal are MCI, BNA, MKE, CLE, PIT, MEM, & RDU. So I could definitely see MCI, although likely with no additional money

https://secure.in.gov/apps/iedc/transpa ... 1dd830812f

AA missed its chance to go daily, now UA stepped in daily again on IND-RSW and now Saturdays on IND-MCO:

7 carriers on IND-Orlando

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... a-midwest/

E175 to Orlando…
The Republic Employee Day-off Special?

BangersAndMash wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

AA missed its chance to go daily, now UA stepped in daily again on IND-RSW and now Saturdays on IND-MCO:
7 carriers on IND-Orlando
https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... a-midwest/

With the loads being what they were, it'll be interesting to see if AA bites on IND-MCO.

Maybe we'll see RDU and TPA thrown in?

Lots of chatter today about $100 a barrel oil coming very soon. Gas prices hit a seven year high. We were an energy independent nation just ten months ago.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/06/america ... years.html

If oil prices skyrocket, all of these new routes will be the first to be drawn back.