hollywoodcory wrote:

IceCream wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

I imagine it would be similar to how they've been slowly adding their codeshare on more and more AF flights at CDG. Also WS/AF still don't codeshare on each others flights between Canada and France either.

Also AMS still hasn't been loaded for 2022 yet, so jury is still out if they'll get slots or not.

Do you think most of the new 789's coming will go to YYZ? I could see an LGW/CDG/DUB/BCN/Maybe something else from there. Could YYC see a new European flight for S22? And I'm going to assume that they'll still announce these flights sometime in October like they usually do.

Still too soon to be certain, but they could split the 787s between YYC and YYZ, with one floating to YVR. For this winter, they have them planned on YYC-LGW/CUN/PVR/OGG, YYZ-LGW/CUN/MBJ and YVR-OGG (along with domestic turns).

As for new TATL destinations, from YYC technically they still need to launch FCO, but other potential destinations could be MAN or GLA.

Still waiting to see what WS has planned for DXB, given they've requested/received slots a few times now.

DXB would be exciting! If they actually go there that would be fantastic, otherwise, I don't see any other Asian destination happening for now (although it would be weird to apply for DXB slots if they didn't want to fly there). MAN or GLA sound most likely, you're right.

Aresxerexade wrote:

I definitely see Manchester. They were poised to start YHZ-MAN before the pandemic cancelled that.

I agree but do they want to fly YHZ-MAN specifically anymore? Everything else they planned for Canada-Europe is still loaded on the S22 schedule except for that one route. Maybe they'll fly it from YYZ or YYC like you said.

You are probably more accurate. I think their network planners are fortifying their main yyc hub , with scarce slots for many european airports, it makes sense to begin new routes from their main widebody hub.

Aresxerexade wrote:

You are probably more accurate. I think their network planners are fortifying their main yyc hub , with scarce slots for many european airports, it makes sense to begin new routes from their main widebody hub.

You're right. It's pretty interesting to see them build up YYC so much, especially when they've said before that they'll start to focus on the east more. To be fair, their network at YYC makes it much easier.

Aresxerexade wrote:

You are probably more accurate. I think their network planners are fortifying their main yyc hub , with scarce slots for many european airports, it makes sense to begin new routes from their main widebody hub.

I respectfully disagree with WJ building up YYC as a TATL hub, at the expense of YYZ. There are close to 8 million Canadians living in Golden Horseshoe, which wraps nicely around YYZ, with links to literally every country in the world. You can make anything work from YYZ, especially to the obvious European summer destinations. YYC on the other hand requires a significant amount of connecting traffic - which does help WJ grow their ops their but also dilutes yields. The trend in the last 20 years in North American aviation has been away from the smaller hub cities.....with many former hubs on both sides of the border being trimmed. As a WJ fan, I am happy to see them growing ..... although a part of me thinks it is necessary that they claim their piece of the YYZ Intl market. I look for them to grow YYZ close behind YYC's wake (ie assuming AMS is a success and slots can be obtained, do service from both....repeat for FCO, CDG, DUB and elsewhere).

WS7M8 wrote:

Aresxerexade wrote:

You are probably more accurate. I think their network planners are fortifying their main yyc hub , with scarce slots for many european airports, it makes sense to begin new routes from their main widebody hub.

I respectfully disagree with WJ building up YYC as a TATL hub, at the expense of YYZ. There are close to 8 million Canadians living in Golden Horseshoe, which wraps nicely around YYZ, with links to literally every country in the world. You can make anything work from YYZ, especially to the obvious European summer destinations. YYC on the other hand requires a significant amount of connecting traffic - which does help WJ grow their ops their but also dilutes yields. The trend in the last 20 years in North American aviation has been away from the smaller hub cities.....with many former hubs on both sides of the border being trimmed. As a WJ fan, I am happy to see them growing ..... although a part of me thinks it is necessary that they claim their piece of the YYZ Intl market. I look for them to grow YYZ close behind YYC's wake (ie assuming AMS is a success and slots can be obtained, do service from both....repeat for FCO, CDG, DUB and elsewhere).

I agree with you, WS will probably have 3-4 787's based in YYZ to fly year-round LGW/CDG/maybe DUB or AMS or something like that and seasonal BCN/GLA or MAN. I think AMS has been pretty successful so far and if they get the slots they will probably fly that from YYZ as well. Considering the GTA is so large WS needs to expand there a bit more. That being said I personally think (and could be wrong) that YYC will always be the largest base for WS and won't be abandoned by them. Western Canada (besides YVR) has been very strong for WS and YYC as a hub would play to that strength. They already have built so much there and I think it's too late and would be too damaging to dehub YYC. You are right that it's low yield, but I would assume that's partially made up for by Westjet's lower costs and more Y heavy aircraft. However I agree that they should expand a bit more in YYZ, ideally 4 787's based there maybe?

There’s isn’t really any assigning a certain number of aircraft to any base, it’s more crewing then anything. The aircraft fly throughout the flight schedule regardless of bases.

WS7M8 wrote:

Aresxerexade wrote:

You are probably more accurate. I think their network planners are fortifying their main yyc hub , with scarce slots for many european airports, it makes sense to begin new routes from their main widebody hub.

I respectfully disagree with WJ building up YYC as a TATL hub, at the expense of YYZ. There are close to 8 million Canadians living in Golden Horseshoe, which wraps nicely around YYZ, with links to literally every country in the world. You can make anything work from YYZ, especially to the obvious European summer destinations. YYC on the other hand requires a significant amount of connecting traffic - which does help WJ grow their ops their but also dilutes yields. The trend in the last 20 years in North American aviation has been away from the smaller hub cities.....with many former hubs on both sides of the border being trimmed. As a WJ fan, I am happy to see them growing ..... although a part of me thinks it is necessary that they claim their piece of the YYZ Intl market. I look for them to grow YYZ close behind YYC's wake (ie assuming AMS is a success and slots can be obtained, do service from both....repeat for FCO, CDG, DUB and elsewhere).

I do not doubt that they will tackle that part of Canada. But I am inclined to believe that they have to secure their place in the West first. Much like how CP built up their hub in their HQ region. They could just as easily…yes …right now …just build up YYZ but they would be spreading themselves too thin with the amount of wide-bodies they currently have compared to the ultra competitive landscape in YYZ. Whereas in the West , YYC to begin with, there is room to grow with less competition. It would appear that their planners must have data to support a West approach first. Their HQ and main hub has always been YYC, and so you start there. It is focus. They have their flagship lounge at YYC and (only lounge they have currently) , a product that compliments the 787 operation. YYZ growth will indeed happen but one step at a time.

Whiteguy wrote:

There’s isn’t really any assigning a certain number of aircraft to any base, it’s more crewing then anything. The aircraft fly throughout the flight schedule regardless of bases.

Good to know!! It's always nice to have some knowledgable people here

Whiteguy wrote:

There’s isn’t really any assigning a certain number of aircraft to any base, it’s more crewing then anything. The aircraft fly throughout the flight schedule regardless of bases.

From what I observed while taking a WJ flight from LGW back to Canada when it was B767s, the YYZ inbound aircraft arrived first, and turned around to YVR (as it was / is the longest flight), the YYC aircraft returned to YYC, and the YVR inbound became YYZ outbound. Simple trick, but by not linking any aircraft to a certain base but rather making them mobile, they become more effective.

cirrusdragoon wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

Aresxerexade wrote:

You are probably more accurate. I think their network planners are fortifying their main yyc hub , with scarce slots for many european airports, it makes sense to begin new routes from their main widebody hub.

I respectfully disagree with WJ building up YYC as a TATL hub, at the expense of YYZ. There are close to 8 million Canadians living in Golden Horseshoe, which wraps nicely around YYZ, with links to literally every country in the world. You can make anything work from YYZ, especially to the obvious European summer destinations. YYC on the other hand requires a significant amount of connecting traffic - which does help WJ grow their ops their but also dilutes yields. The trend in the last 20 years in North American aviation has been away from the smaller hub cities.....with many former hubs on both sides of the border being trimmed. As a WJ fan, I am happy to see them growing ..... although a part of me thinks it is necessary that they claim their piece of the YYZ Intl market. I look for them to grow YYZ close behind YYC's wake (ie assuming AMS is a success and slots can be obtained, do service from both....repeat for FCO, CDG, DUB and elsewhere).

I do not doubt that they will tackle that part of Canada. But I am inclined to believe that they have to secure their place in the West first. Much like how CP built up their hub in their HQ region. They could just as easily…yes …right now …just build up YYZ but they would be spreading themselves too thin with the amount of wide-bodies they currently have compared to the ultra competitive landscape in YYZ. Whereas in the West , YYC to begin with, there is room to grow with less competition. It would appear that their planners must have data to support a West approach first. Their HQ and main hub has always been YYC, and so you start there. It is focus. They have their flagship lounge at YYC and (only lounge they have currently) , a product that compliments the 787 operation. YYZ growth will indeed happen but one step at a time.

General question - how profitable was CP's Western Canada to Europe ops. That predates my time so I am curious if some of the industry veteran observers could weigh in. I watched the last decade or so of what became Canadi<n....and I want to say it seemed their European ops were AMS focused. Then after the merger AC had nowhere near the AMS flights that CP once did. CP's TPAC flights were their real money-makers. I'm just afraid for WJ that if they try to force things too much through YYC, they might end up hurting themselves in the long run, as that strategy wasn't necessarily effective in the past.

You are right, CP was very profitable on the North Pacific and to Latin America. The Atlantic was pretty well dominated by Air Canada. With the purchase of Wardair, CP gained scheduled rights to the Uk and France. (This was before open skies).

This helped as flights shifted to LHR, CDG in addition to already flown flights to FRA and MUC. With open skies, KL no longer needed the pool agreement with CP and it shows with their domination of the Canada/Netherlands market. Flying into 7 Canadian cities, KL didn’t need a Canadian partner any more and CP was left with only a couple flights a day, on average.

I remember Kevin Benson, CEO of CP saying that with the move from LGW to LHR yields doubled overnight. But that was with BA as a partner. It appeared at the time, that was where the money was.

CrewBunk wrote:

You are right, CP was very profitable on the North Pacific and to Latin America. The Atlantic was pretty well dominated by Air Canada. With the purchase of Wardair, CP gained scheduled rights to the Uk and France. (This was before open skies).

This helped as flights shifted to LHR, CDG in addition to already flown flights to FRA and MUC. With open skies, KL no longer needed the pool agreement with CP and it shows with their domination of the Canada/Netherlands market. Flying into 7 Canadian cities, KL didn’t need a Canadian partner any more and CP was left with only a couple flights a day, on average.

I remember Kevin Benson, CEO of CP saying that with the move from LGW to LHR yields doubled overnight. But that was with BA as a partner. It appeared at the time, that was where the money was.

That was a different time. As I kid I did the CP Air flight from Toronto to Lisbon with parents to visit family. Back then they also had Rome and Athens. CP would also have connecting traffic running through those cities. However that was a very different time both in Europe and North America.

One of the problems “CP Air /CAI” had was, Canada at the time , just wasn't big enough for two international carriers. CP was shackled and barred from operating the more profitable European routes as the government favoured their crown corporation for those.

In the mid-1980s, with deregulation of the air industry on the horizon in Canada, domestic carriers were looking to the already deregulated U.S. market for a survival strategy. What they saw were big airlines swallowing up the smaller carriers and creating fortress hubs. Both airlines often spent more time and money competing with each other than with the many international competitors.

After Pacific Western bought CP Air and renamed themselves CAI, they made a mistake by using $250 million to purchase Wardair in 1989 which could have been put to much better use quite frankly.

They got virtually nothing valuable by acquiring Ward-air except a dozen A310s they didn't need at all and a whole lot of debt. They received traffic rights to France/UK from the acquisition of Ward Air , at a significant cost. Had they waited a little longer until those markets essentially became Open Skies, they would have been able to start those services at much lower cost.

Couple in economic downturns as well, the downturn in 1991 and the asian economic crisis in 1998. The rest is history.

cirrusdragoon wrote:

One of the problems “CP Air /CAI” had was, Canada at the time , just wasn't big enough for two international carriers. CP was shackled and barred from operating the more profitable European routes as the government favoured their crown corporation for those.

In the mid-1980s, with deregulation of the air industry on the horizon in Canada, domestic carriers were looking to the already deregulated U.S. market for a survival strategy. What they saw were big airlines swallowing up the smaller carriers and creating fortress hubs. Both airlines often spent more time and money competing with each other than with the many international competitors.

After Pacific Western bought CP Air and renamed themselves CAI, they made a mistake by using $250 million to purchase Wardair in 1989 which could have been put to much better use quite frankly.

They got virtually nothing valuable by acquiring Ward-air except a dozen A310s they didn't need at all and a whole lot of debt. They received traffic rights to France/UK from the acquisition of Ward Air , at a significant cost. Had they waited a little longer until those markets essentially became Open Skies, they would have been able to start those services at much lower cost.

Couple in economic downturns as well, the downturn in 1991 and the asian economic crisis in 1998. The rest is history.

Thanks for that bit. Certainly very much different times.

Canadian’s purchase of Wardair was like Pan Am’s purchase of National. Great to point fingers when you know the future outcome. But neither didn’t.

It was a blow to CP when Canada gave the UK rights to Wardair. At the time it was the most lucrative international market. Wardair’s rights to France were achieved by the choice of the A310 over the 767-200. Much like scheduled rights into Holland with the purchase of the F100. Mr. Ward certainly knew how to wheel and deal in the aircraft market! (Read his book, it’s fascinating).

But that was CP’s (and AC’s) biggest fear. With the MD-80s and F100s coming, Wardair became an actual threat. I am sure somewhere in the boardroom of PWA Corp, it was decided that buying Wardair was cheaper than the certain losses of a three way battle. Even if Wardair lost, (as they likely would), far greater losses from the competition would result.

By the time the dust settled, there was very little debt from the Wardair purchase. The A310s were to be sold, but between the time the deal was inked and acquisition actually occurred, that deal fell through. This left CP with 5 unsold A310s. However, when these aircraft were sold to the Canadian Armed Forces, a net gain of about $50M was realized.

Yes, Canadian would have been better off waiting for eventual Open Skies, much like Pan Am would have been better off waiting for deregulation ….. but as boardrooms were not equipped with crystal balls, no one knew.

CrewBunk wrote:

Canadian’s purchase of Wardair was like Pan Am’s purchase of National. Great to point fingers when you know the future outcome. But neither didn’t.

It was a blow to CP when Canada gave the UK rights to Wardair. At the time it was the most lucrative international market. Wardair’s rights to France were achieved by the choice of the A310 over the 767-200. Much like scheduled rights into Holland with the purchase of the F100. Mr. Ward certainly knew how to wheel and deal in the aircraft market! (Read his book, it’s fascinating).

But that was CP’s (and AC’s) biggest fear. With the MD-80s and F100s coming, Wardair became an actual threat. I am sure somewhere in the boardroom of PWA Corp, it was decided that buying Wardair was cheaper than the certain losses of a three way battle. Even if Wardair lost, (as they likely would), far greater losses from the competition would result.

By the time the dust settled, there was very little debt from the Wardair purchase. The A310s were to be sold, but between the time the deal was inked and acquisition actually occurred, that deal fell through. This left CP with 5 unsold A310s. However, when these aircraft were sold to the Canadian Armed Forces, a net gain of about $50M was realized.

Yes, Canadian would have been better off waiting for eventual Open Skies, much like Pan Am would have been better off waiting for deregulation ….. but as boardrooms were not equipped with crystal balls, no one knew.

You make some compelling points. Hindsight is always 20/20. WS seems to be pretty successful (so far) with its strategy at YYC. Considering how different the Canadian market is, and how much feed there is at YYC, I don't think WS will be unsuccessful. They're already taking things slow and steady rather than fast anyways.

IceCream wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Canadian’s purchase of Wardair was like Pan Am’s purchase of National. Great to point fingers when you know the future outcome. But neither didn’t.

It was a blow to CP when Canada gave the UK rights to Wardair. At the time it was the most lucrative international market. Wardair’s rights to France were achieved by the choice of the A310 over the 767-200. Much like scheduled rights into Holland with the purchase of the F100. Mr. Ward certainly knew how to wheel and deal in the aircraft market! (Read his book, it’s fascinating).

But that was CP’s (and AC’s) biggest fear. With the MD-80s and F100s coming, Wardair became an actual threat. I am sure somewhere in the boardroom of PWA Corp, it was decided that buying Wardair was cheaper than the certain losses of a three way battle. Even if Wardair lost, (as they likely would), far greater losses from the competition would result.

By the time the dust settled, there was very little debt from the Wardair purchase. The A310s were to be sold, but between the time the deal was inked and acquisition actually occurred, that deal fell through. This left CP with 5 unsold A310s. However, when these aircraft were sold to the Canadian Armed Forces, a net gain of about $50M was realized.

Yes, Canadian would have been better off waiting for eventual Open Skies, much like Pan Am would have been better off waiting for deregulation ….. but as boardrooms were not equipped with crystal balls, no one knew.

You make some compelling points. Hindsight is always 20/20. WS seems to be pretty successful (so far) with its strategy at YYC. Considering how different the Canadian market is, and how much feed there is at YYC, I don't think WS will be unsuccessful. They're already taking things slow and steady rather than fast anyways.

certainly are not doing what Norwegian tried to do. Too big too fast.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8101891/west ... -recovery/
Interesting article.
"We maintained more service in Calgary than we did at any other major airport through the pandemic, and we will bring back service to Calgary faster than we bring back service to any other major city as we move on to the recovery phase of the pandemic.”-seems like they'll focus on fully restoring YYC service and probably YVR and YYZ as well before restoring the rest of the network. So it's possible that YYC could be back to pre-pandemic levels after a few months while the rest of the network will take longer to recover. I mean it's probably more profitable to take that approach.

I just wanted to quickly add that Westjet's AMS flights seem to be doing really really well from bookings. Even in nonpandemic times it would seem to be successful with current loads.

IceCream wrote:

DXB would be exciting! If they actually go there that would be fantastic, otherwise, I don't see any other Asian destination happening for now (although it would be weird to apply for DXB slots if they didn't want to fly there). MAN or GLA sound most likely, you're right.

DXB is my ultimate dream WJ destination. Although far flung, it makes too much sense. The connection possibilities they could offer through there are basically unlimited, and EK would love the additional Canada access that a WestJet flight would provide. Plus there are at least 3 Canada - DXB flight slots available, per the Canada - UAE agreement. Heck, I've been on WJ at LGW, and my impression of their LGW - Canada flying is that it was one giant EK codeshare from Gatwick to Dubai and back. It was pretty impressive seeing all the WJ flights on the departure board with the EK flight numbers. Once things start to regain some semblance of normalcy in the post-COVID world, I suspect that is something we could see from WestJet.

A YYC - DXB or YVR - DXB would be an ULH flight, probably requiring 4 pilots. Do any WJ insiders know if the WJ B787s have crew bunks / rest facilities?

WS7M8 wrote:

IceCream wrote:

DXB would be exciting! If they actually go there that would be fantastic, otherwise, I don't see any other Asian destination happening for now (although it would be weird to apply for DXB slots if they didn't want to fly there). MAN or GLA sound most likely, you're right.

DXB is my ultimate dream WJ destination. Although far flung, it makes too much sense. The connection possibilities they could offer through there are basically unlimited, and EK would love the additional Canada access that a WestJet flight would provide. Plus there are at least 3 Canada - DXB flight slots available, per the Canada - UAE agreement. Heck, I've been on WJ at LGW, and my impression of their LGW - Canada flying is that it was one giant EK codeshare from Gatwick to Dubai and back. It was pretty impressive seeing all the WJ flights on the departure board with the EK flight numbers. Once things start to regain some semblance of normalcy in the post-COVID world, I suspect that is something we could see from WestJet.

A YYC - DXB or YVR - DXB would be an ULH flight, probably requiring 4 pilots. Do any WJ insiders know if the WJ B787s have crew bunks / rest facilities?

Yes they are equipped. What is missing (from at least the FAs) is the augment crew processes for ULH flights.

Do any WJ insiders know if the WJ B787s have crew bunks / rest facilities?

Yes they sure do.

WS7M8 wrote:

IceCream wrote:

DXB would be exciting! If they actually go there that would be fantastic, otherwise, I don't see any other Asian destination happening for now (although it would be weird to apply for DXB slots if they didn't want to fly there). MAN or GLA sound most likely, you're right.

DXB is my ultimate dream WJ destination. Although far flung, it makes too much sense. The connection possibilities they could offer through there are basically unlimited, and EK would love the additional Canada access that a WestJet flight would provide. Plus there are at least 3 Canada - DXB flight slots available, per the Canada - UAE agreement. Heck, I've been on WJ at LGW, and my impression of their LGW - Canada flying is that it was one giant EK codeshare from Gatwick to Dubai and back. It was pretty impressive seeing all the WJ flights on the departure board with the EK flight numbers. Once things start to regain some semblance of normalcy in the post-COVID world, I suspect that is something we could see from WestJet.

A YYC - DXB or YVR - DXB would be an ULH flight, probably requiring 4 pilots. Do any WJ insiders know if the WJ B787s have crew bunks / rest facilities?

Interesting. Do you think they would go YYC-DXB because of their larger network and lack of Middle Eastern carriers there? (Mainly because YYZ already has EK and YVR already as TK)

WS7M8 wrote:

DXB is my ultimate dream WJ destination. Although far flung, it makes too much sense.

YYC-DEL makes way more sense than YYC-DXB. Why fly from YYC to DXB and feed EK, when you know most of your passengers are connecting to India anyway. Just fly there yourself.

Securing the rights on the route is another matter though.

IceCream wrote:

Interesting. Do you think they would go YYC-DXB because of their larger network and lack of Middle Eastern carriers there? (Mainly because YYZ already has EK and YVR already as TK)

Thought about that and I almost don't know how to answer. My gut says WJ would go with YYC - DXB, as that aligns with how they are trying to build Calgary up as a giant connecting hub, and this would only strengthen all the spokes. Plus with being YYC's hometown airline. Then there's something to be said for how much of their European service has been originally from YYC (minus the YHZ B737 TATL ops), so DXB would be basically following that vein. It really surprises me to some extent when I think about it like that, but WJ seems to move reasonably conservatively, backed up with reams of supporting data and they think they have found something in creating links from YYC to the world.

It really is flip a three sided coin though. Compelling arguments could be made for Dubai service from any of their three main Canadian hubs (YYC, YVR, YYZ). If anything YYZ could be eliminated as it already has EK & AC, not to mention EY going to Doha (although if they were shrewd they would add YYZ DXB on the days EK doesn't do it to create a flight schedule that would be available almost every day of the week). YVR undoubtedly has a bigger area from which to draw than YYC, including a massive populations with links to Asia, but within the WJ network it doesn't quite have the connectivity of YYC. So my 2 cents would be with YYC.

Speaking of which, TK seems to have done alright on their service to YVR, and same with QR & Air China on their service to YUL, so their definitely is a market from other Canadian cities....

Last but not least, about 10 or so years ago when EK was in that silly spat with the Canadian government about more landing rights in the Great White North, I remember reading articles from their perspective saying they could envision 28+ weekly frequencies to Canada, and to more than just YYZ. Doubtlessly they were referring to YVR and perhaps YYC....of course this would have been during the last oil boom. If anything, it shows the market was there, and as Canada's population has only grown in the last decade, it certainly still is there.

An article that someone linked earlier in this thread said that WJ had 69 destinations from YYC pre-COVID, and with AMS added and SEA coming online in the fall, they'll be at 71 shortly. I would say they'll be seriously looking at DXB within 2-3 years from YYC.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

DXB is my ultimate dream WJ destination. Although far flung, it makes too much sense.

YYC-DEL makes way more sense than YYC-DXB. Why fly from YYC to DXB and feed EK, when you know most of your passengers are connecting to India anyway. Just fly there yourself.

Securing the rights on the route is another matter though.

Agree with everything. YYC has a massive population with links to India, and what they couldn't sell directly, they could undoubtedly fill with connecting traffic. One hopes that the Indian authorities would be able to appreciate the benefits of service from a new destination, but it is tough to be optimistic when dealing with their byzantine bureaucracy.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

DXB is my ultimate dream WJ destination. Although far flung, it makes too much sense.

YYC-DEL makes way more sense than YYC-DXB. Why fly from YYC to DXB and feed EK, when you know most of your passengers are connecting to India anyway. Just fly there yourself.

Securing the rights on the route is another matter though.

That's pretty true and I could see a DEL flight working out, but wouldn't EK help for Pak/Bangladesh/Nepal/Africa/Southeast Asia passengers as well? And I guess during the pandemic flying to DXB would be a bit easier than nonstop to DEL due to the flight ban.

WS7M8 wrote:

IceCream wrote:

Interesting. Do you think they would go YYC-DXB because of their larger network and lack of Middle Eastern carriers there? (Mainly because YYZ already has EK and YVR already as TK)

Thought about that and I almost don't know how to answer. My gut says WJ would go with YYC - DXB, as that aligns with how they are trying to build Calgary up as a giant connecting hub, and this would only strengthen all the spokes. Plus with being YYC's hometown airline. Then there's something to be said for how much of their European service has been originally from YYC (minus the YHZ B737 TATL ops), so DXB would be basically following that vein. It really surprises me to some extent when I think about it like that, but WJ seems to move reasonably conservatively, backed up with reams of supporting data and they think they have found something in creating links from YYC to the world.

It really is flip a three sided coin though. Compelling arguments could be made for Dubai service from any of their three main Canadian hubs (YYC, YVR, YYZ). If anything YYZ could be eliminated as it already has EK & AC, not to mention EY going to Doha (although if they were shrewd they would add YYZ DXB on the days EK doesn't do it to create a flight schedule that would be available almost every day of the week). YVR undoubtedly has a bigger area from which to draw than YYC, including a massive populations with links to Asia, but within the WJ network it doesn't quite have the connectivity of YYC. So my 2 cents would be with YYC.

Speaking of which, TK seems to have done alright on their service to YVR, and same with QR & Air China on their service to YUL, so their definitely is a market from other Canadian cities....

Last but not least, about 10 or so years ago when EK was in that silly spat with the Canadian government about more landing rights in the Great White North, I remember reading articles from their perspective saying they could envision 28+ weekly frequencies to Canada, and to more than just YYZ. Doubtlessly they were referring to YVR and perhaps YYC....of course this would have been during the last oil boom. If anything, it shows the market was there, and as Canada's population has only grown in the last decade, it certainly still is there.

An article that someone linked earlier in this thread said that WJ had 69 destinations from YYC pre-COVID, and with AMS added and SEA coming online in the fall, they'll be at 71 shortly. I would say they'll be seriously looking at DXB within 2-3 years from YYC.

I wonder if they'll do this in a few years (which would mean they need to exercise some options) or if they were to do it even next summer (seems rather soon though haha!)

AC and A++ dominate in the three largest markets in Canada - YYZ, YVR, and YUL. AC has 7-8 times as many wide bodies as WS and, unless WS massively grows, will likely never be able to compete with AC's network, which has been helped by many, many years of growth. AC had a hugely comprehensive international route map prior to COVID, which was extended even further with their *A and A++ partners. It is likely why WS continues to focus on YYC.

Westjet and Delta are apparently resubmitting their North America JV. It would make sense for WS to join in on the Skyteam Transatlantic JV if they are successful with the JV with Delta. They could then compete more with A++ in the transatlantic market, further helped by KLM's presence in YVR, YEG, YYC, YYZ, and YUL and AF's presence in YVR, YYZ, and especially YUL. A metal neutral JV with AF/KLM would really extend their reach and increase their route network without massively expanding directly themselves. Adding a route from YEG would also be a possibility, probably to CDG, where they could then connect on with the AF network much like AC does at FRA and MUC with LH.

It amazes me that WS with all those connecting flights still has less flights than AC between most of the major city pairs out of YYC.

North3270 wrote:

It amazes me that WS with all those connecting flights still has less flights than AC between most of the major city pairs out of YYC.

Really? Last I saw (except YYZ, YUL and SFO) WS has many more flights. Eg (pre-pandemic) 8 a day to YXE vs 4 on AC, 7 a day to YQR vs 3 on AC, 6 a day to YWG vs 3 a day on AC, 5 a day to YYJ vs 2 a day on AC.
However, you're right that WS is weak in YUL ( and Europe in the winter compared to AC).

WS resumes CDG tonight, and looking at the seat map it looks like a fairly full flight. Planned to fly weekly on Fridays outbound and Sundays inbound until end of October.

Over the weekend, WS filed 2x weekly YYC-SNA starting November 4th. It’s not currently bookable as of yet.

hollywoodcory wrote:

Over the weekend, WS filed 2x weekly YYC-SNA starting November 4th. It’s not currently bookable as of yet.

Looks like they just made it bookable. Goes to 3x weekly in December until the end of April.

IceCream wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Over the weekend, WS filed 2x weekly YYC-SNA starting November 4th. It’s not currently bookable as of yet.

Looks like they just made it bookable. Goes to 3x weekly in December until the end of April.

I think it was you asking about year-round SFO, well looks like it’s happening.

https://westjet.mediaroom.com/2021-08-2 ... California

hollywoodcory wrote:

IceCream wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Over the weekend, WS filed 2x weekly YYC-SNA starting November 4th. It’s not currently bookable as of yet.

Looks like they just made it bookable. Goes to 3x weekly in December until the end of April.

I think it was you asking about year-round SFO, well looks like it’s happening.

https://westjet.mediaroom.com/2021-08-2 ... California

Nice to see some expansion even during the recovery phase. It's looking like at least part of the upcoming winter season will be busier for WS out of YYC than winter 2019-2020.

hollywoodcory wrote:

IceCream wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Over the weekend, WS filed 2x weekly YYC-SNA starting November 4th. It’s not currently bookable as of yet.

Looks like they just made it bookable. Goes to 3x weekly in December until the end of April.

I think it was you asking about year-round SFO, well looks like it’s happening.

https://westjet.mediaroom.com/2021-08-2 ... California

Twice weekly , not a bad start to year round service especially given the current pandemic , it is better than nothing. A welcome addition to their network.

Any updates on when Denver service returns?

Kden95 wrote:

Any updates on when Denver service returns?

Right now it’s scheduled to resume Oct 31st, subject to change of course.

Whiteguy wrote:

Kden95 wrote:

Any updates on when Denver service returns?

Right now it’s scheduled to resume Oct 31st, subject to change of course.

Thank you.

Will Westjet ever expand more to the US?

b777900 wrote:

Will Westjet ever expand more to the US?

Of course! We've already seen YYC-SFO year-round, YYC-SEA and YYC-SNA (though it was taken from the preexisting YVR service)

IceCream wrote:

b777900 wrote:

Will Westjet ever expand more to the US?

Of course! We've already seen YYC-SFO year-round, YYC-SEA and YYC-SNA (though it was taken from the preexisting YVR service)

YVR-SNA service starts end of September…

Whiteguy wrote:

IceCream wrote:

b777900 wrote:

Will Westjet ever expand more to the US?

Of course! We've already seen YYC-SFO year-round, YYC-SEA and YYC-SNA (though it was taken from the preexisting YVR service)

YVR-SNA service starts end of September…

Yes. YVR-SNA decreases from daily to 4x weekly when the YYC service starts, and YYC will go 3x weekly starting December. 3xweek is being removed from YVR and put onto YYC. I didn't make it clear, sorry.

IceCream wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

IceCream wrote:

Of course! We've already seen YYC-SFO year-round, YYC-SEA and YYC-SNA (though it was taken from the preexisting YVR service)

YVR-SNA service starts end of September…

Yes. YVR-SNA decreases from daily to 4x weekly when the YYC service starts, and YYC will go 3x weekly starting December. 3xweek is being removed from YVR and put onto YYC. I didn't make it clear, sorry.

I see what you’re saying. Was YVR service back up to daily service? I think it’s more the service hasn’t returned to pre Covid levels yet. I think YVR will eventually return to daily service.

Whiteguy wrote:

IceCream wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

YVR-SNA service starts end of September…

Yes. YVR-SNA decreases from daily to 4x weekly when the YYC service starts, and YYC will go 3x weekly starting December. 3xweek is being removed from YVR and put onto YYC. I didn't make it clear, sorry.

I see what you’re saying. Was YVR service back up to daily service? I think it’s more the service hasn’t returned to pre Covid levels yet. I think YVR will eventually return to daily service.

I think you may be right. The reason why I said it waa taking away from YVR is that the schedules had it at 6xweekly to daily this winter and when they added YYC they also removed 3x weekly from YVR at the same time.
That being said you're right that it's probably due to Covid and they're moving a few frequencies to maximize connections in YYC. Chances are they'll go back to daily at YVR as well.

IceCream wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

IceCream wrote:

Yes. YVR-SNA decreases from daily to 4x weekly when the YYC service starts, and YYC will go 3x weekly starting December. 3xweek is being removed from YVR and put onto YYC. I didn't make it clear, sorry.

I see what you’re saying. Was YVR service back up to daily service? I think it’s more the service hasn’t returned to pre Covid levels yet. I think YVR will eventually return to daily service.

I think you may be right. The reason why I said it waa taking away from YVR is that the schedules had it at 6xweekly to daily this winter and when they added YYC they also removed 3x weekly from YVR at the same time.
That being said you're right that it's probably due to Covid and they're moving a few frequencies to maximize connections in YYC. Chances are they'll go back to daily at YVR as well.

Well that and air canada is also on the route now from YVR to SNA. That may be the other reason why.

brabb12 wrote:

IceCream wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

I see what you’re saying. Was YVR service back up to daily service? I think it’s more the service hasn’t returned to pre Covid levels yet. I think YVR will eventually return to daily service.

I think you may be right. The reason why I said it waa taking away from YVR is that the schedules had it at 6xweekly to daily this winter and when they added YYC they also removed 3x weekly from YVR at the same time.
That being said you're right that it's probably due to Covid and they're moving a few frequencies to maximize connections in YYC. Chances are they'll go back to daily at YVR as well.

Well that and air canada is also on the route now from YVR to SNA. That may be the other reason why.

Yeah. AC competition probably means they shifted some of SNA to YYC to leverage connections. You're right.

mind you. pre covid , both were running sna daily from yvr.