346fetish wrote:

You need the XLR's range in winter to properly serve Canada-Europe. TS doesn't need the XLR as they deploy those planes on SUN markets in winter. As for WS, I guess it would be a different story.

No you don't. Certainly not from YYZ/YUL to the UK, France or Portugal. A 4,000 nm range is more than enough for these routes, even in winter.

WS7M8 wrote:

The thing is, the B787's performance isn't optimized on European flying, especially from YYZ (YYC or YVR - definitely hit the 787's sweet spot). Which suggests to me they'll look for more far flung places. If they don't, they might as well have gone with used A330s.

Yield is the most important factor. Not flight distance. If YYZ-LHR/LGW will yield higher profits than YYC-PEK, than WestJet will put the plane on the higher yielding route. The 787's cost advantage can be seen even on shorter hops such as YYZ-LGW.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

Not a single word about the operating aircraft type on their YYZ-GLA/EDI press release.

How convenient.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2021 ... cotland-fr

If you try to book it, you will notice it is a 7M8.

I know what the aircraft type is.

99% of the flying public don't, and will think its on a widebody, when it isn't. Manipulative marketing tactic by Westjet, due to all the negative press surrounding the Max of late.

Not blaming them specifically. All airlines probably do the same.

SANFan wrote:

Thanks guys (re: SAN's return.)

The problem is SAN airport (SAN.org) has not issued any sort of PR about WestJet's return in, apparently, just over a month. And they were all over JL's and AC's returns to town; the airport is
very involved in securing returning cx and routes -- as I'm sure is every airport in the world -- and in publicizing the return of service by those carriers!

It also seems to me that there was lots of publicity (inc WS-issued PRs) and chatter about the return of both SFO and SNA (also starting in October with the press release issued 8/23) but I have seen nothing regarding SAN. I find it interesting and disappointing that WS doesn't consider SAN important enough for a presser.

(My opinion only: perhaps SAN airport is returning the favor?)

Anyway, I will wait to see WS back in San Diego, hoping YYC will be re-starting next month.

bb

SFO got mentioned in that presser cause it was being extended to year-round. The route already resumed back in July.

346fetish wrote:

I don't see WS entering YUL/YQB-CDG routes anytime soon. While YULCDG is the second biggest transatlantic market in Canada, it's a very well served and competitive route. WS has also little to no feed in YUL. This summer they only served YYZ, YYC & YVR from YUL. Goes to show how YUL has no strategic significance for them.

I know this is really hard for folks to understand but despite Montreal being the second largest city in Canada it is neither a hub nor focus city for WS. As such (as a spoke or out station) it has flights only to WestJet’s hubs. This isn’t changing anytime soon.

WS is not going to launch TATL from YUL. Ain’t happening. Any TATL MAX flights will be out of YYZ (hub) or YHZ (focus city). WS will go to CDG out of YHZ long before YUL is ever considered.

YYCFlier wrote:

346fetish wrote:

I don't see WS entering YUL/YQB-CDG routes anytime soon. While YULCDG is the second biggest transatlantic market in Canada, it's a very well served and competitive route. WS has also little to no feed in YUL. This summer they only served YYZ, YYC & YVR from YUL. Goes to show how YUL has no strategic significance for them.

I know this is really hard for folks to understand but despite Montreal being the second largest city in Canada it is neither a hub nor focus city for WS. As such (as a spoke or out station) it has flights only to WestJet’s hubs. This isn’t changing anytime soon.

WS is not going to launch TATL from YUL. Ain’t happening. Any TATL MAX flights will be out of YYZ (hub) or YHZ (focus city). WS will go to CDG out of YHZ long before YUL is ever considered.

We'll agree to respectfully disagree.

I do get the points you are making.

At the same time, their planning folks would be foolish to ignore some tempting low-hanging fruit.

YUL-CDG is such a massive market, that AC/TS/AF put multiple frequencies of their biggest widebodies (77Ws, A380s, A333s) on daily all summer long. The demand is there. A lowly WS B737 Max 8, with 174 seats, could easily be filled despite their marginal presence in La Belle Province.

If anything YHZ-CDG is the oddball route as there are basically no logical links between the two cities (well, maybe if you want to go back to Samuel de Champlain and the Acadians but we're talking 300+ years ago). YHZ CDG is being filled with countless connections that they cleverly plan the Halifax summer schedule around. YUL CDG would be purely O&D traffic, and no matter WS' weaknesses in Quebec, they'll be able to fill the airplane.

At the same time, something that the some of the YYC crowd is having a hard time accepting is that WS is no longer a Calgary-centric airline. True it is their headquarters, and COVID has skewed YYZ ops down while YYC presently seems to have much more service BUT YYZ, YVR, and other Canadian cities such as YUL have far more long term growth potential for WS than Calgary, which doesn't have that much that can be added save for a few key long haul routes. The sooner WS realizes that, the better off they'll be.

WS7M8 wrote:

At the same time, something that the some of the YYC crowd is having a hard time accepting is that WS is no longer a Calgary-centric airline. True it is their headquarters, and COVID has skewed YYZ ops down while YYC presently seems to have much more service BUT YYZ, YVR, and other Canadian cities such as YUL have far more long term growth potential for WS than Calgary, which doesn't have that much that can be added save for a few key long haul routes. The sooner WS realizes that, the better off they'll be.

If WestJet’s strategy is to copy Air Canada’s hub and route strategy they are going to fail. Air Canada and Star are superior. If I were YUL based why the hell would I take a crappy WestJet MAX over the wide body options on global carriers like AF or AC?

WestJet has zero brand recognition in Quebec and most of Montreal’s flying pre-covid is international.

YVR is WestJet’s secondary hub in the west. During Covid WS cut YVR in favour of YYC and Air Canada did the opposite.

YYZ will continue to grow and probably will eclipse YYC and that makes sense. YVR will stay second fiddle to YYC and YUL isn’t in the cards.

If I were YUL based I would never ever take WS and probably would not in YVR either.

Looks like the modified schedule got extended to mid-December in tonight’s OAG update.

JFK/LGA are back, but DEN was pushed back again.

Also was the 787 removed from YYZ-MBJ? I’m not seeing it at least in November. (It was previously was there).

Also is YYZ-LGW down to just once a week in November? While YYC-LGW is twice weekly?

I can take a better look at it tomorrow.

YYCFlier wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

At the same time, something that the some of the YYC crowd is having a hard time accepting is that WS is no longer a Calgary-centric airline. True it is their headquarters, and COVID has skewed YYZ ops down while YYC presently seems to have much more service BUT YYZ, YVR, and other Canadian cities such as YUL have far more long term growth potential for WS than Calgary, which doesn't have that much that can be added save for a few key long haul routes. The sooner WS realizes that, the better off they'll be.

If WestJet’s strategy is to copy Air Canada’s hub and route strategy they are going to fail. Air Canada and Star are superior. If I were YUL based why the hell would I take a crappy WestJet MAX over the wide body options on global carriers like AF or AC?

WestJet has zero brand recognition in Quebec and most of Montreal’s flying pre-covid is international.

YVR is WestJet’s secondary hub in the west. During Covid WS cut YVR in favour of YYC and Air Canada did the opposite.

YYZ will continue to grow and probably will eclipse YYC and that makes sense. YVR will stay second fiddle to YYC and YUL isn’t in the cards.

If I were YUL based I would never ever take WS and probably would not in YVR either.

I am YVR or YJJ based. I do consider WS all the time and most cases it is fairly competitive with AC. When I look at making a booking I don't care where the hub is. I am more concerned with departure/arrival time, total travel time and price. I think that is far more representative of the general population.

WS has sufficient brand recognition in YUL that when the option shows up on an online booking engine people will be willing to consider it. They only issue is does it have something compelling vrs the other airlines in the list. For a flight to CDG if was desperate it could compete on price or be the airline that people pick when the other guys get full.

casperCA wrote:

I am YVR or YJJ based. I do consider WS all the time and most cases it is fairly competitive with AC. When I look at making a booking I don't care where the hub is. I am more concerned with departure/arrival time, total travel time and price. I think that is far more representative of the general population.

I agree with you in terms of your average leisure flier. The average Canadian who flies for leisure could give a rip where the hub is and is almost always concerned about price. These types of fliers are also the lowest yield for airlines and they don't make a lot of money on these trips, it's all about volume, hence the evolution of ULCC and LCCs. If you are YYJ based you will have to connect somewhere, YVR is just as good as YYC so if I were based in YYJ and travelling mostly economy based on price I'd be right there with you.

For me though, it is also largely about duration and timing. Connecting trans-border via YVR is a pain as it takes a 2-3 hour trip and extends it to 5-6 hours by the time I have to go back thru security in YVR to pre-clearance and then sit for a 1-2 hour layover. If I have to connect to the east (YUL, YYZ) for TATL I can skip the security hassle but it does extend the day, versus a nice evening departure in the west. I also fly J or W most of the time and rarely sit in the back.

casperCA wrote:

WS has sufficient brand recognition in YUL that when the option shows up on an online booking engine people will be willing to consider it. They only issue is does it have something compelling vrs the other airlines in the list. For a flight to CDG if was desperate it could compete on price or be the airline that people pick when the other guys get full.

I guarantee you if I operate Rhino Airlines from YUL and the price is low enough people will consider it. But it won't make any money. That's what WS is weighing here; they can make more money deploying their MAX and 787 aircraft elsewhere. Keep in mind Transat is hubbed at YUL too with tons of low cost TATL flights. YUL is very well served to Europe.

As for the comment about connecting traffic - 50% of WestJet's traffic at YYC is connecting. That's the point of a hub. You could hub in Brandon, MB and make it work if you had enough connecting traffic. O&D sure helps because you need much less connecting traffic. But again I think this is a hang-up of "why isn't Montreal a hub for everyone".

YYCFlier wrote:

casperCA wrote:

I am YVR or YJJ based. I do consider WS all the time and most cases it is fairly competitive with AC. When I look at making a booking I don't care where the hub is. I am more concerned with departure/arrival time, total travel time and price. I think that is far more representative of the general population.

I agree with you in terms of your average leisure flier. The average Canadian who flies for leisure could give a rip where the hub is and is almost always concerned about price. These types of fliers are also the lowest yield for airlines and they don't make a lot of money on these trips, it's all about volume, hence the evolution of ULCC and LCCs. If you are YYJ based you will have to connect somewhere, YVR is just as good as YYC so if I were based in YYJ and travelling mostly economy based on price I'd be right there with you.

For me though, it is also largely about duration and timing. Connecting trans-border via YVR is a pain as it takes a 2-3 hour trip and extends it to 5-6 hours by the time I have to go back thru security in YVR to pre-clearance and then sit for a 1-2 hour layover. If I have to connect to the east (YUL, YYZ) for TATL I can skip the security hassle but it does extend the day, versus a nice evening departure in the west. I also fly J or W most of the time and rarely sit in the back.

casperCA wrote:

WS has sufficient brand recognition in YUL that when the option shows up on an online booking engine people will be willing to consider it. They only issue is does it have something compelling vrs the other airlines in the list. For a flight to CDG if was desperate it could compete on price or be the airline that people pick when the other guys get full.

I guarantee you if I operate Rhino Airlines from YUL and the price is low enough people will consider it. But it won't make any money. That's what WS is weighing here; they can make more money deploying their MAX and 787 aircraft elsewhere. Keep in mind Transat is hubbed at YUL too with tons of low cost TATL flights. YUL is very well served to Europe.

As for the comment about connecting traffic - 50% of WestJet's traffic at YYC is connecting. That's the point of a hub. You could hub in Brandon, MB and make it work if you had enough connecting traffic. O&D sure helps because you need much less connecting traffic. But again I think this is a hang-up of "why isn't Montreal a hub for everyone".

You're right that WS can't just be an Air Canada 2.0 and copy what they do. It won't work because AC is much more developed. In the very near future (~2 years) I would say YYC is their priority, and then YYZ. One day YYZ probably would become larger than YYC for WS because it's also a hub and also huge. YVR will always be more of a focus city with a few connections for Hawaii and BC. WS knows what it's doing.

hollywoodcory wrote:

Looks like the modified schedule got extended to mid-December in tonight’s OAG update.

JFK/LGA are back, but DEN was pushed back again.

Also was the 787 removed from YYZ-MBJ? I’m not seeing it at least in November. (It was previously was there).

Also is YYZ-LGW down to just once a week in November? While YYC-LGW is twice weekly?

I can take a better look at it tomorrow.

Looking at mid Nov it looks like YYZ-LGW is daily and YYC is 4x a week.

Whiteguy wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Looks like the modified schedule got extended to mid-December in tonight’s OAG update.

JFK/LGA are back, but DEN was pushed back again.

Also was the 787 removed from YYZ-MBJ? I’m not seeing it at least in November. (It was previously was there).

Also is YYZ-LGW down to just once a week in November? While YYC-LGW is twice weekly?

I can take a better look at it tomorrow.

Looking at mid Nov it looks like YYZ-LGW is daily and YYC is 4x a week.

I wonder if there was a filing error, as OAG schedules only has YYC-LGW on Fridays / Sundays. YYZ-LGW seems to vary, like one week I see it on Wednesday and on another on Monday/Tuesdays? Guess we'll see once it actually hits the booking system tonight.

Also looks like DEN got axed right through the winter.

hollywoodcory wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Looks like the modified schedule got extended to mid-December in tonight’s OAG update.

JFK/LGA are back, but DEN was pushed back again.

Also was the 787 removed from YYZ-MBJ? I’m not seeing it at least in November. (It was previously was there).

Also is YYZ-LGW down to just once a week in November? While YYC-LGW is twice weekly?

I can take a better look at it tomorrow.

Looking at mid Nov it looks like YYZ-LGW is daily and YYC is 4x a week.

I wonder if there was a filing error, as OAG schedules only has YYC-LGW on Fridays / Sundays. YYZ-LGW seems to vary, like one week I see it on Wednesday and on another on Monday/Tuesdays? Guess we'll see once it actually hits the booking system tonight.

Also looks like DEN got axed right through the winter.

Yeah that’s weird. I was looking on the Westjet website, my understanding is the schedule has been updated to Dec.

Whiteguy wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

Looking at mid Nov it looks like YYZ-LGW is daily and YYC is 4x a week.

I wonder if there was a filing error, as OAG schedules only has YYC-LGW on Fridays / Sundays. YYZ-LGW seems to vary, like one week I see it on Wednesday and on another on Monday/Tuesdays? Guess we'll see once it actually hits the booking system tonight.

Also looks like DEN got axed right through the winter.

Yeah that’s weird. I was looking on the Westjet website, my understanding is the schedule has been updated to Dec.

Hopefully, we can see some near 100% recovery by the spring, unless there are more waves of this virus at which point I would just give up haha! DEN is pretty weak for WS so there's no need for them to compete with UA for the winter months during the pandemic.

IceCream wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

cirrusdragoon wrote:

So I’m assuming Manchester might not be happening.

I'm also curious. It seems to some effect like they used the YHZ (and YYT) B737 European flying initially as a testbed. I could see them trying YHZ MAN in S2022, as they were slated to try it in S2020. YHZ offers connections from basically the entire WJ network in the summer, and from the data they'd bring home from that, they'd know if they have a winner.

Also surprised to some extent that they announced YYZ EDI/GLA so early. WJ traditionally has held their cards close to their chest in the widebody game, as in not revealing destinations too early, as they know Air Canada has the widebody aircraft to make life painful for them. Perhaps in this post COVID booking environment, the sooner you announce something the better off you'll be. Plus with the preliminary bookings, they'll also get a feel for if there is the need to add any capacity.

I was shocked to see this announced so soon as well. Looks like these flights are on the MAX though. I wonder what the other new routes will be (especially the 787 ones) and when they'll announce them. I am kind of surprised they didn't announce a YYZ-DUB flight today as well.

I think YYZ-DUB would be a bit of a stretch honestly.
AC, EI and TS already fly the route as it is. I’d say in the future when aviation is mostly recovered it could be a 737 max route maybe even a Dreamliner in peak season. With their 2 routes to Dublin already I think a YYZ flight would take demand from the existing routes.

Whiteguy wrote:

hollywoodcory wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

Looking at mid Nov it looks like YYZ-LGW is daily and YYC is 4x a week.

I wonder if there was a filing error, as OAG schedules only has YYC-LGW on Fridays / Sundays. YYZ-LGW seems to vary, like one week I see it on Wednesday and on another on Monday/Tuesdays? Guess we'll see once it actually hits the booking system tonight.

Also looks like DEN got axed right through the winter.

Yeah that’s weird. I was looking on the Westjet website, my understanding is the schedule has been updated to Dec.

GDS now matches what shows in OAG schedules and both YYC/YYZ-LGW appear to be 2x weekly in November.

I'm a little surprised to see YYC-AZA not only back, but increased to 3x weekly in early December. So far, the only YYC winter seasonal routes that aren't scheduled (in the modified schedule) are BZE, NAS, and FLL. Jury is still out on PUJ.

Could the 787 delivery delays affect WestJet?

IceCream wrote:

Could the 787 delivery delays affect WestJet?

The first of the next 4 has been moved to storage, tail 908, I’m guessing 909 will do the same. It’s more the traffic levels and restrictions affecting Westjet then delivery delays.

Edit….909 actually flew to VCV on the 30th, probably for storage….

WS launches new domestic service to YDQ (Dawson Creek) today from YYC. Originally planned to start in April 2020.

Effective October 30th, 2021, all WestJetters are required to be fully vaccinated.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-09-08/

Link to the press article regarding employee vaccine requirement

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/296685/westjet-ceo-eyes-transatlantic-rebound-as-canada-reopens/
An interesting article.

Canada's WestJet sees promise in the transatlantic market as the carrier takes what it is characterizing as a prudent approach to rebuilding its European network.

After imposing strict COVID-19 travel rules for more than 16 months that effectively grounded Canadian airlines' foreign operations, Canada finally started opening up in the late summer. As of Sept. 7, the country has reopened to travelers who have been vaccinated.

WestJet CEO Ed Sims told attendees at the CAPA Live September conference that, from an international perspective, “one of the things COVID has taught me is to minimize risk and to operate with prudence and caution.”

That cautious approach entails building up long-haul service from WestJet’s hubs in Calgary (YYC), Toronto Pearson (YYZ) and Vancouver (YVR). Sims explained the airline was “trying to make sure we fly a broad swath of European destinations built around Central European hubs.”

Sims cited WestJet’s recent launch from YYC to Amsterdam Schiphol (AMS), a route that already has “astonishing load factors.” The airline is also operating from YYC and YYZ to London Gatwick (LGW) and between YYC and Paris Charles de Gaulle (CDG).

That service gives WestJet the confidence to start flying to destinations like Dublin (DUB) and Rome (FCO) in the future, Sims said, adding the airline has recently announced plans to launch flights during 2022 from YYZ to Edinburgh (EDI) and Glasgow (GLA) operated by Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft.

Sims expressed concern over the delta variant of COVID-19 as well as "whatever may come next,” but he also highlighted Canada’s vaccination levels. According to Our World Data, roughly 68% of Canada’s adult population is fully vaccinated. WestJet’s CEO believes Canada could reach critical mass “north of around 70%” during the next couple of months.

“Notwithstanding the delta variant, I’m feeling pretty confident about the projections on the Atlantic,” he added.

Sims also noted Canada has introduced “very timely legislation” that mandates all federally regulated workers and domestic travelers (flying or boarding a train) to be fully vaccinated by Oct. 31.

“I think Canada has a wonderful opportunity to establish ourselves as one of the safest countries to travel to, from and within that gives us a very strong platform on the Atlantic, where people are now so used to carrying a digital passport ... to get access to a whole range of services,” Sims said.

Sims said WestJet has a “relatively modest” business-class cabin on its 787 widebodies (16 seats) and not a large premium economy section (28 seats). As a result, there is “less obligation to fill those forward cabins, and a greater opportunity for us to fill … the aircraft with both VFR [visiting, friends and relatives] and leisure traffic,” he said.

Aviation Week’s Fleet Discovery database shows that WestJet has five 787s in service, one in storage and four on order. Sims said the airline hopes to increase “that fleet up to 10 aircraft” within the next six months and, as the recovery gains momentum, the airline “has a great opportunity to build beyond those 10 787s.”

Speedalive wrote:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/296685/westjet-ceo-eyes-transatlantic-rebound-as-canada-reopens/
An interesting article.

Canada's WestJet sees promise in the transatlantic market as the carrier takes what it is characterizing as a prudent approach to rebuilding its European network.

After imposing strict COVID-19 travel rules for more than 16 months that effectively grounded Canadian airlines' foreign operations, Canada finally started opening up in the late summer. As of Sept. 7, the country has reopened to travelers who have been vaccinated.

WestJet CEO Ed Sims told attendees at the CAPA Live September conference that, from an international perspective, “one of the things COVID has taught me is to minimize risk and to operate with prudence and caution.”

That cautious approach entails building up long-haul service from WestJet’s hubs in Calgary (YYC), Toronto Pearson (YYZ) and Vancouver (YVR). Sims explained the airline was “trying to make sure we fly a broad swath of European destinations built around Central European hubs.”

Sims cited WestJet’s recent launch from YYC to Amsterdam Schiphol (AMS), a route that already has “astonishing load factors.” The airline is also operating from YYC and YYZ to London Gatwick (LGW) and between YYC and Paris Charles de Gaulle (CDG).

That service gives WestJet the confidence to start flying to destinations like Dublin (DUB) and Rome (FCO) in the future, Sims said, adding the airline has recently announced plans to launch flights during 2022 from YYZ to Edinburgh (EDI) and Glasgow (GLA) operated by Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft.

Sims expressed concern over the delta variant of COVID-19 as well as "whatever may come next,” but he also highlighted Canada’s vaccination levels. According to Our World Data, roughly 68% of Canada’s adult population is fully vaccinated. WestJet’s CEO believes Canada could reach critical mass “north of around 70%” during the next couple of months.

“Notwithstanding the delta variant, I’m feeling pretty confident about the projections on the Atlantic,” he added.

Sims also noted Canada has introduced “very timely legislation” that mandates all federally regulated workers and domestic travelers (flying or boarding a train) to be fully vaccinated by Oct. 31.

“I think Canada has a wonderful opportunity to establish ourselves as one of the safest countries to travel to, from and within that gives us a very strong platform on the Atlantic, where people are now so used to carrying a digital passport ... to get access to a whole range of services,” Sims said.

Sims said WestJet has a “relatively modest” business-class cabin on its 787 widebodies (16 seats) and not a large premium economy section (28 seats). As a result, there is “less obligation to fill those forward cabins, and a greater opportunity for us to fill … the aircraft with both VFR [visiting, friends and relatives] and leisure traffic,” he said.

Aviation Week’s Fleet Discovery database shows that WestJet has five 787s in service, one in storage and four on order. Sims said the airline hopes to increase “that fleet up to 10 aircraft” within the next six months and, as the recovery gains momentum, the airline “has a great opportunity to build beyond those 10 787s.”

Seems WS will have the greatest success Trans-Atlantic operating into SkyTeam hubs in Europe, those being primarily AMS and CDG.

Should be interesting to see how the WestJet pilots and employee group as a whole responds to the vaccine request by the company. ALPA has instructed the WestJet pilot group to not submit any Vaccine documentation to the company as requested. The pilots association has voiced its displeasure over the company’s unilateral decision and threat of termination without any consultation with WestJet pilots. It seems that since ONEXs takeover employee moral and relations have really gone downhill unfortunately.

Speedalive wrote:

Sims explained the airline was “trying to make sure we fly a broad swath of European destinations built around Central European hubs.”

Sims cited WestJet’s recent launch from YYC to Amsterdam Schiphol (AMS), a route that already has “astonishing load factors.”

It seems the WS decision to codeshare beyond AMS with KLM is working:

All WestJet coded departures from AMS tomorrow, following the arrival from YYC:

arr. 13.30 WS20 YYC

- 14.25 TLS WS5265
- 14.25 VCE WS5269
- 14.35 MPL WS5253
- 15.15 BER WS5203
- 15.20 VIE WS5273
- 15.30 YYC WS21
- 15.40 GLA WS5221
- 15.40 MUC WS5257
- 15.55 LHR WS5233
- 16.00 LYS WS5241
- 16.15 EDI WS5213
- 16.25 MAN WS5241
- 16.40 FRA WS5217
- 16.45 BER WS5205
- 16.50 BRU WS5207
- 16.50 HAJ WS5225
- 17.00 MXP WS5261
- 17.15 LCY WS5231
- also later departures to LIS, MAD, ATH

Some longer connecting times at present, as KL frequencies are reduced due to COVID.

Source: Schiphol Airport

ramprat320 wrote:

Should be interesting to see how the WestJet pilots and employee group as a whole responds to the vaccine request by the company. ALPA has instructed the WestJet pilot group to not submit any Vaccine documentation to the company as requested. The pilots association has voiced its displeasure over the company’s unilateral decision and threat of termination without any consultation with WestJet pilots. It seems that since ONEXs takeover employee moral and relations have really gone downhill unfortunately.

It's a pretty stupid move considering probably 70+% of pilots are vaccinated and the transport canada mandate to be vaccinated at the end of October. Wonder why ALPA believes pilots shouldn't submit proof of vaccination when they will legally be required to be vaccinated in order to set foot on a plane in less than two months time.

runway23 wrote:

ramprat320 wrote:

Should be interesting to see how the WestJet pilots and employee group as a whole responds to the vaccine request by the company. ALPA has instructed the WestJet pilot group to not submit any Vaccine documentation to the company as requested. The pilots association has voiced its displeasure over the company’s unilateral decision and threat of termination without any consultation with WestJet pilots. It seems that since ONEXs takeover employee moral and relations have really gone downhill unfortunately.

It's a pretty stupid move considering probably 70+% of pilots are vaccinated and the transport canada mandate to be vaccinated at the end of October. Wonder why ALPA believes pilots shouldn't submit proof of vaccination when they will legally be required to be vaccinated in order to set foot on a plane in less than two months time.

There's likely to be a proportion of the group that are anti-Vaxx, conspiracy theorists, QAnon follows, etc that will not want to go along with the mandate. It's a refection on our society in general, the current 70% reflects that when considering vaccine uptake. ALPA has to pander to anti-vaccine group as it's their responsibility to represent the entire membership.

runway23 wrote:

Wonder why ALPA believes pilots shouldn't submit proof of vaccination when they will legally be required to be vaccinated in order to set foot on a plane in less than two months time.

Because ALPA will use any excuse to try and leverage something from the company - always what's in it for them.

runway23 wrote:

ramprat320 wrote:

Should be interesting to see how the WestJet pilots and employee group as a whole responds to the vaccine request by the company. ALPA has instructed the WestJet pilot group to not submit any Vaccine documentation to the company as requested. The pilots association has voiced its displeasure over the company’s unilateral decision and threat of termination without any consultation with WestJet pilots. It seems that since ONEXs takeover employee moral and relations have really gone downhill unfortunately.

It's a pretty stupid move considering probably 70+% of pilots are vaccinated and the transport canada mandate to be vaccinated at the end of October. Wonder why ALPA believes pilots shouldn't submit proof of vaccination when they will legally be required to be vaccinated in order to set foot on a plane in less than two months time.

When over 85% of Canadian over 12 have received at least one dose this is a very silly move by the union. WestJet operates under the federal labour code and its requires employees to be vaccinated or regularly tested starting later this fall. All WestJet is doing is doing is saying it is not going to support the regular testing option.

You can't social distance in the cockpit. Having everyone vaccinated is a better option than both pilots having to wear masks all day long.

I don't understand where ALPA is coming from on this. Sounds like they are just playing games.

nickya340 wrote:

IceCream wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

I'm also curious. It seems to some effect like they used the YHZ (and YYT) B737 European flying initially as a testbed. I could see them trying YHZ MAN in S2022, as they were slated to try it in S2020. YHZ offers connections from basically the entire WJ network in the summer, and from the data they'd bring home from that, they'd know if they have a winner.

Also surprised to some extent that they announced YYZ EDI/GLA so early. WJ traditionally has held their cards close to their chest in the widebody game, as in not revealing destinations too early, as they know Air Canada has the widebody aircraft to make life painful for them. Perhaps in this post COVID booking environment, the sooner you announce something the better off you'll be. Plus with the preliminary bookings, they'll also get a feel for if there is the need to add any capacity.

I was shocked to see this announced so soon as well. Looks like these flights are on the MAX though. I wonder what the other new routes will be (especially the 787 ones) and when they'll announce them. I am kind of surprised they didn't announce a YYZ-DUB flight today as well.

I think YYZ-DUB would be a bit of a stretch honestly.
AC, EI and TS already fly the route as it is. I’d say in the future when aviation is mostly recovered it could be a 737 max route maybe even a Dreamliner in peak season. With their 2 routes to Dublin already I think a YYZ flight would take demand from the existing routes.

YYZDUB would be a bit of a stretch on the 789, not on the 7M8. I see a 7M8 YYZDUB service as being a natural add to their transatlantic network.

WestJet Group announces Harry Taylor will assume the “interim” role of President and Chief Executive Officer (CEO) with a transition period taking place between late November and mid-December 2021.

Does anyone know what's up with WS 4500 CDG-YYC? Cargo?

IceCream wrote:

Does anyone know what's up with WS 4500 CDG-YYC? Cargo?

IROP. CDGYYC 19SEP21 - FIN903 went mechanical.

casperCA wrote:

runway23 wrote:

ramprat320 wrote:

Should be interesting to see how the WestJet pilots and employee group as a whole responds to the vaccine request by the company. ALPA has instructed the WestJet pilot group to not submit any Vaccine documentation to the company as requested. The pilots association has voiced its displeasure over the company’s unilateral decision and threat of termination without any consultation with WestJet pilots. It seems that since ONEXs takeover employee moral and relations have really gone downhill unfortunately.

It's a pretty stupid move considering probably 70+% of pilots are vaccinated and the transport canada mandate to be vaccinated at the end of October. Wonder why ALPA believes pilots shouldn't submit proof of vaccination when they will legally be required to be vaccinated in order to set foot on a plane in less than two months time.

When over 85% of Canadian over 12 have received at least one dose this is a very silly move by the union. WestJet operates under the federal labour code and its requires employees to be vaccinated or regularly tested starting later this fall. All WestJet is doing is doing is saying it is not going to support the regular testing option.

You can't social distance in the cockpit. Having everyone vaccinated is a better option than both pilots having to wear masks all day long.

I don't understand where ALPA is coming from on this. Sounds like they are just playing games.

Folks outside the labor world may not understand the difference between opposing a policy and demanding the right to engage in effects bargaining over its impact. WS ALPA may very well support the policy, but when a company changes the terms and conditions of employment (in this case, it is now a condition of working for WS that you be vaccinated), they are generally required to bargain the effects of this decision with the Union. This could include things like time off to recover from vaccine symptoms, alternatives for medical or religious exemptions, and what happens to employees who refuse. If management made this change unilaterally without consulting the Unions or engaging in effects bargaining, it’s not silly games. They have every right to be upset- even if they support or are neutral on the policy itself.

CMHtraveler wrote:

casperCA wrote:

runway23 wrote:

It's a pretty stupid move considering probably 70+% of pilots are vaccinated and the transport canada mandate to be vaccinated at the end of October. Wonder why ALPA believes pilots shouldn't submit proof of vaccination when they will legally be required to be vaccinated in order to set foot on a plane in less than two months time.

When over 85% of Canadian over 12 have received at least one dose this is a very silly move by the union. WestJet operates under the federal labour code and its requires employees to be vaccinated or regularly tested starting later this fall. All WestJet is doing is doing is saying it is not going to support the regular testing option.

You can't social distance in the cockpit. Having everyone vaccinated is a better option than both pilots having to wear masks all day long.

I don't understand where ALPA is coming from on this. Sounds like they are just playing games.

Folks outside the labor world may not understand the difference between opposing a policy and demanding the right to engage in effects bargaining over its impact. WS ALPA may very well support the policy, but when a company changes the terms and conditions of employment (in this case, it is now a condition of working for WS that you be vaccinated), they are generally required to bargain the effects of this decision with the Union. This could include things like time off to recover from vaccine symptoms, alternatives for medical or religious exemptions, and what happens to employees who refuse. If management made this change unilaterally without consulting the Unions or engaging in effects bargaining, it’s not silly games. They have every right to be upset- even if they support or are neutral on the policy itself.

Part of the issue here is in Canada you either work under provincial labour law or federal. Airlines fall under federal labour law. The feds changed the rules and employees in all federally regulated workplaces have to be vaccinated. What exactly is there for the employer and union to negotiate? Minor implementational issues on how it is implemented.

The have also changed the rules that next month all passengers on Canadian operated airlines also have to show evidence of being vaccinated to fly.

casperCA wrote:

CMHtraveler wrote:

casperCA wrote:

When over 85% of Canadian over 12 have received at least one dose this is a very silly move by the union. WestJet operates under the federal labour code and its requires employees to be vaccinated or regularly tested starting later this fall. All WestJet is doing is doing is saying it is not going to support the regular testing option.

You can't social distance in the cockpit. Having everyone vaccinated is a better option than both pilots having to wear masks all day long.

I don't understand where ALPA is coming from on this. Sounds like they are just playing games.

Folks outside the labor world may not understand the difference between opposing a policy and demanding the right to engage in effects bargaining over its impact. WS ALPA may very well support the policy, but when a company changes the terms and conditions of employment (in this case, it is now a condition of working for WS that you be vaccinated), they are generally required to bargain the effects of this decision with the Union. This could include things like time off to recover from vaccine symptoms, alternatives for medical or religious exemptions, and what happens to employees who refuse. If management made this change unilaterally without consulting the Unions or engaging in effects bargaining, it’s not silly games. They have every right to be upset- even if they support or are neutral on the policy itself.

Part of the issue here is in Canada you either work under provincial labour law or federal. Airlines fall under federal labour law. The feds changed the rules and employees in all federally regulated workplaces have to be vaccinated. What exactly is there for the employer and union to negotiate? Minor implementational issues on how it is implemented.

The have also changed the rules that next month all passengers on Canadian operated airlines also have to show evidence of being vaccinated to fly.

I’m not as familiar with the intricacies of Canadian labor law vs. US labor law, but in general unions are held to a duty of fair representation for everyone they represent. In other words, they must advocate equally for all bargaining unit members. So even if one single pilot chooses not to get vaccinated and is disciplined, the union cannot legally write this off as a “minor implementation issue”. They may be liable for all kinds of costs if they were found to have breached their duty of fair representation. These issues aren’t quite as trivial as they sometimes appear in the bigger picture.

CMHtraveler wrote:

casperCA wrote:

CMHtraveler wrote:

Folks outside the labor world may not understand the difference between opposing a policy and demanding the right to engage in effects bargaining over its impact. WS ALPA may very well support the policy, but when a company changes the terms and conditions of employment (in this case, it is now a condition of working for WS that you be vaccinated), they are generally required to bargain the effects of this decision with the Union. This could include things like time off to recover from vaccine symptoms, alternatives for medical or religious exemptions, and what happens to employees who refuse. If management made this change unilaterally without consulting the Unions or engaging in effects bargaining, it’s not silly games. They have every right to be upset- even if they support or are neutral on the policy itself.

Part of the issue here is in Canada you either work under provincial labour law or federal. Airlines fall under federal labour law. The feds changed the rules and employees in all federally regulated workplaces have to be vaccinated. What exactly is there for the employer and union to negotiate? Minor implementational issues on how it is implemented.

The have also changed the rules that next month all passengers on Canadian operated airlines also have to show evidence of being vaccinated to fly.

I’m not as familiar with the intricacies of Canadian labor law vs. US labor law, but in general unions are held to a duty of fair representation for everyone they represent. In other words, they must advocate equally for all bargaining unit members. So even if one single pilot chooses not to get vaccinated and is disciplined, the union cannot legally write this off as a “minor implementation issue”. They may be liable for all kinds of costs if they were found to have breached their duty of fair representation. These issues aren’t quite as trivial as they sometimes appear in the bigger picture.

If you were to compare this to the US system it would be equivalent to the union trying to advocate that a pilot should be allowed to violate OSHA regulations or FDA regulations. I don't think that would go very far.

casperCA wrote:

CMHtraveler wrote:

casperCA wrote:

Part of the issue here is in Canada you either work under provincial labour law or federal. Airlines fall under federal labour law. The feds changed the rules and employees in all federally regulated workplaces have to be vaccinated. What exactly is there for the employer and union to negotiate? Minor implementational issues on how it is implemented.

The have also changed the rules that next month all passengers on Canadian operated airlines also have to show evidence of being vaccinated to fly.

I’m not as familiar with the intricacies of Canadian labor law vs. US labor law, but in general unions are held to a duty of fair representation for everyone they represent. In other words, they must advocate equally for all bargaining unit members. So even if one single pilot chooses not to get vaccinated and is disciplined, the union cannot legally write this off as a “minor implementation issue”. They may be liable for all kinds of costs if they were found to have breached their duty of fair representation. These issues aren’t quite as trivial as they sometimes appear in the bigger picture.

If you were to compare this to the US system it would be equivalent to the union trying to advocate that a pilot should be allowed to violate OSHA regulations or FDA regulations. I don't think that would go very far.

It’s not advocating that employees should violate regulations, but 1) representing them when they do and are facing discipline from the employer or a federal agency, and 2) bargaining the impact of the policy. #1 is part of the reason why the union is generally granted “interested party” status in NTSB incident and accident investigations and employs their own investigators. Again, it’s not necessarily fighting over the regulation itself, but the consequences of it.

Anyway, now that we’ve hijacked the thread, I am generally pro-Vaccine mandate and applaud WS for the decision (provided they bargain the consequences with their employees as required of course).

I was just looking through DepartedFlights.com at route maps and schedules belonging to Canadi>n, CP Air, and Wardair, in order to project what WestJet's B787-9 international flying network to the Pacific Rim might look like in a few years.

I'll start with the obvious - by the time those carriers were purchased and combined with Quebecair and EPA by PWA - the combined balance sheet was loaded with debt and the financials were horrible. However certain parts of CP Air's widebody network were extremely profitable such as their Australia / NZ / Asia network, and continues to be seen as a jewel within the Air Canada system.

WestJet is not going to try to be everything Air Canada is in the international arena - however they are going to try to do certain routes where there is a strong history of demand from Canada and proven J class yields. With that being said - here is my completely unofficial opinion on what WestJet's B787 network might look like in a few years.

1. As far as I know, WestJet has six B787s, and is expecting four more in the year ahead. I know some of the six are in storage because of reduced demand from COVID. Hopefully this is just a temporary blip, similar to when Air Canada first received their B747-400s....they were initially parked. I think everyone reading this thread is hoping the world fixes itself from COVID in the next year or two.

2. WestJet also has 10 B787-9 options, which I believe they will exercise at some point in the next two or three years.

3. Here is what I think the WestJet TPAC network will look like in a few years. Destinations will include:

From YVR:
Sydney
Auckland --current CEO is from NZ - would have been a nice career capstone if he could have inaugurated service between the two. From what I read via ONEX, he is staying on as a consultant and my WAG is that he'll be opening the cabin door from the jetway on the NZ end to welcome the first WJ flight to Auckland in a few years.

From Calgary, or Vancouver:

Vancouver is the more logical place to be launching China flights with its huge drawing area. Calgary could be a wildcard with the connecting hub that WJ is building and the added value they may be able to sell the Chinese authorities on having more links to Canada. Hainan Airlines was at one point doing flights between YYC and Beijing but that stopped in 2019. If anyone could make this route a success, it would be WJ.

The China rights need to be acquired, and pick between Shanghai / Beijing / Hong Kong / Guanghzou. I don't think you'll see WJ serving secondary cities in mainland China for a long time.
YVR receives service from seven mainland Chinese airlines (Air China, Hainan, China Southern, China Eastern, Beijing Capital, Sichaun, Xiamen) and Cathay Pacific could count as an 8th. Only Air Canada flies from Canada to China....so I am presuming their is space for another entrant from the Canadian end.

From either Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto:

Seoul -- likely with enhanced tie ins with Korean Air as part of the DL / KE TPAC JV. KE already serves all three destinations...perhaps we'll get double dailies on the routes divided between the two, or maybe a metal-neutral situation, with KE keeping the higher-yielding business destinations of YYZ and YVR and leaving YYC to WJ's relatively small J class B787s. I suspect much of WJ's initial foray into the Pacific Rim will be based on handing over passengers to KE at Seoul, for onward connections.

Tokyo.

WJ is almost certainly eyeing Delhi and Mumbai from all three of their hubs....it is probably a more long term goal.

Places that will almost certainly not be receiving be receiving WJ service in the next decade that have received service from Canada airlines in the past or still do on AC: Manila, Taipei, Bangkok, Singapore. The first three are high volume but low yielding....the last one is just a little too far and can be served through connecting hubs.

Thoughts?

WS7M8 wrote:

I was just looking through DepartedFlights.com at route maps and schedules belonging to Canadi>n, CP Air, and Wardair, in order to project what WestJet's B787-9 international flying network to the Pacific Rim might look like in a few years.

I'll start with the obvious - by the time those carriers were purchased and combined with Quebecair and EPA by PWA - the combined balance sheet was loaded with debt and the financials were horrible. However certain parts of CP Air's widebody network were extremely profitable such as their Australia / NZ / Asia network, and continues to be seen as a jewel within the Air Canada system.

WestJet is not going to try to be everything Air Canada is in the international arena - however they are going to try to do certain routes where there is a strong history of demand from Canada and proven J class yields. With that being said - here is my completely unofficial opinion on what WestJet's B787 network might look like in a few years.

1. As far as I know, WestJet has six B787s, and is expecting four more in the year ahead. I know some of the six are in storage because of reduced demand from COVID. Hopefully this is just a temporary blip, similar to when Air Canada first received their B747-400s....they were initially parked. I think everyone reading this thread is hoping the world fixes itself from COVID in the next year or two.

2. WestJet also has 10 B787-9 options, which I believe they will exercise at some point in the next two or three years.

3. Here is what I think the WestJet TPAC network will look like in a few years. Destinations will include:

From YVR:
Sydney
Auckland --current CEO is from NZ - would have been a nice career capstone if he could have inaugurated service between the two. From what I read via ONEX, he is staying on as a consultant and my WAG is that he'll be opening the cabin door from the jetway on the NZ end to welcome the first WJ flight to Auckland in a few years.

From Calgary, or Vancouver:

Vancouver is the more logical place to be launching China flights with its huge drawing area. Calgary could be a wildcard with the connecting hub that WJ is building and the added value they may be able to sell the Chinese authorities on having more links to Canada. Hainan Airlines was at one point doing flights between YYC and Beijing but that stopped in 2019. If anyone could make this route a success, it would be WJ.

The China rights need to be acquired, and pick between Shanghai / Beijing / Hong Kong / Guanghzou. I don't think you'll see WJ serving secondary cities in mainland China for a long time.
YVR receives service from seven mainland Chinese airlines (Air China, Hainan, China Southern, China Eastern, Beijing Capital, Sichaun, Xiamen) and Cathay Pacific could count as an 8th. Only Air Canada flies from Canada to China....so I am presuming their is space for another entrant from the Canadian end.

From either Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto:

Seoul -- likely with enhanced tie ins with Korean Air as part of the DL / KE TPAC JV. KE already serves all three destinations...perhaps we'll get double dailies on the routes divided between the two, or maybe a metal-neutral situation, with KE keeping the higher-yielding business destinations of YYZ and YVR and leaving YYC to WJ's relatively small J class B787s. I suspect much of WJ's initial foray into the Pacific Rim will be based on handing over passengers to KE at Seoul, for onward connections.

Tokyo.

WJ is almost certainly eyeing Delhi and Mumbai from all three of their hubs....it is probably a more long term goal.

Places that will almost certainly not be receiving be receiving WJ service in the next decade that have received service from Canada airlines in the past or still do on AC: Manila, Taipei, Bangkok, Singapore. The first three are high volume but low yielding....the last one is just a little too far and can be served through connecting hubs.

Thoughts?

All 6 of the 787s have been flying, none are in storage. WS also has the approvals required to fly to Asia and South America, not sure is still approvals need for specific cities.

Glad to hear that all of the six B787s are flying.
Are they still on track to receive four more this year?

As for China or other Pacific rim rights - I believe that is done on a per country basis. I do remember hearing about WJ applying for China rights a few years ago but haven't heard anything about approvals. 2017 is a long time ago, so hopefully that has been granted.

https://calgaryherald.com/business/loca ... y-approval

WS7M8 wrote:

Glad to hear that all of the six B787s are flying.
Are they still on track to receive four more this year?

As for China or other Pacific rim rights - I believe that is done on a per country basis. I do remember hearing about WJ applying for China rights a few years ago but haven't heard anything about approvals. 2017 is a long time ago, so hopefully that has been granted.

https://calgaryherald.com/business/loca ... y-approval

I’m not sure when the next 4 will be delivered, they’re delayed from Boeing. 2 are built and in storage now, 1 in VCV and the other in San Antonio.

The rights were applied for and approved last year, the hope was to operate some cargo flights with the 787s but none were.

Whiteguy wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

I was just looking through DepartedFlights.com at route maps and schedules belonging to Canadi>n, CP Air, and Wardair, in order to project what WestJet's B787-9 international flying network to the Pacific Rim might look like in a few years.

I'll start with the obvious - by the time those carriers were purchased and combined with Quebecair and EPA by PWA - the combined balance sheet was loaded with debt and the financials were horrible. However certain parts of CP Air's widebody network were extremely profitable such as their Australia / NZ / Asia network, and continues to be seen as a jewel within the Air Canada system.

WestJet is not going to try to be everything Air Canada is in the international arena - however they are going to try to do certain routes where there is a strong history of demand from Canada and proven J class yields. With that being said - here is my completely unofficial opinion on what WestJet's B787 network might look like in a few years.

1. As far as I know, WestJet has six B787s, and is expecting four more in the year ahead. I know some of the six are in storage because of reduced demand from COVID. Hopefully this is just a temporary blip, similar to when Air Canada first received their B747-400s....they were initially parked. I think everyone reading this thread is hoping the world fixes itself from COVID in the next year or two.

2. WestJet also has 10 B787-9 options, which I believe they will exercise at some point in the next two or three years.

3. Here is what I think the WestJet TPAC network will look like in a few years. Destinations will include:

From YVR:
Sydney
Auckland --current CEO is from NZ - would have been a nice career capstone if he could have inaugurated service between the two. From what I read via ONEX, he is staying on as a consultant and my WAG is that he'll be opening the cabin door from the jetway on the NZ end to welcome the first WJ flight to Auckland in a few years.

From Calgary, or Vancouver:

Vancouver is the more logical place to be launching China flights with its huge drawing area. Calgary could be a wildcard with the connecting hub that WJ is building and the added value they may be able to sell the Chinese authorities on having more links to Canada. Hainan Airlines was at one point doing flights between YYC and Beijing but that stopped in 2019. If anyone could make this route a success, it would be WJ.

The China rights need to be acquired, and pick between Shanghai / Beijing / Hong Kong / Guanghzou. I don't think you'll see WJ serving secondary cities in mainland China for a long time.
YVR receives service from seven mainland Chinese airlines (Air China, Hainan, China Southern, China Eastern, Beijing Capital, Sichaun, Xiamen) and Cathay Pacific could count as an 8th. Only Air Canada flies from Canada to China....so I am presuming their is space for another entrant from the Canadian end.

From either Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto:

Seoul -- likely with enhanced tie ins with Korean Air as part of the DL / KE TPAC JV. KE already serves all three destinations...perhaps we'll get double dailies on the routes divided between the two, or maybe a metal-neutral situation, with KE keeping the higher-yielding business destinations of YYZ and YVR and leaving YYC to WJ's relatively small J class B787s. I suspect much of WJ's initial foray into the Pacific Rim will be based on handing over passengers to KE at Seoul, for onward connections.

Tokyo.

WJ is almost certainly eyeing Delhi and Mumbai from all three of their hubs....it is probably a more long term goal.

Places that will almost certainly not be receiving be receiving WJ service in the next decade that have received service from Canada airlines in the past or still do on AC: Manila, Taipei, Bangkok, Singapore. The first three are high volume but low yielding....the last one is just a little too far and can be served through connecting hubs.

Thoughts?

All 6 of the 787s have been flying, none are in storage. WS also has the approvals required to fly to Asia and South America, not sure is still approvals need for specific cities.

To be honest I'm thinking that ICN and/or NRT/HND are more likely at this point than anything China. My bet would be either ICN or TYO (since AC's YYC-NRT flight was quite successful for the ten ish years it ran). Apparently, WS was actually planning for Asia in 2021 before COVID hit according to a link on a Flyertalk page. I could definitely see a YYC-TYO flight launches even in S22. It would be a great route to enter Asia but also a route that has already run for many years, so is a safer bet.

IceCream wrote:

Whiteguy wrote:

WS7M8 wrote:

I was just looking through DepartedFlights.com at route maps and schedules belonging to Canadi>n, CP Air, and Wardair, in order to project what WestJet's B787-9 international flying network to the Pacific Rim might look like in a few years.

I'll start with the obvious - by the time those carriers were purchased and combined with Quebecair and EPA by PWA - the combined balance sheet was loaded with debt and the financials were horrible. However certain parts of CP Air's widebody network were extremely profitable such as their Australia / NZ / Asia network, and continues to be seen as a jewel within the Air Canada system.

WestJet is not going to try to be everything Air Canada is in the international arena - however they are going to try to do certain routes where there is a strong history of demand from Canada and proven J class yields. With that being said - here is my completely unofficial opinion on what WestJet's B787 network might look like in a few years.

1. As far as I know, WestJet has six B787s, and is expecting four more in the year ahead. I know some of the six are in storage because of reduced demand from COVID. Hopefully this is just a temporary blip, similar to when Air Canada first received their B747-400s....they were initially parked. I think everyone reading this thread is hoping the world fixes itself from COVID in the next year or two.

2. WestJet also has 10 B787-9 options, which I believe they will exercise at some point in the next two or three years.

3. Here is what I think the WestJet TPAC network will look like in a few years. Destinations will include:

From YVR:
Sydney
Auckland --current CEO is from NZ - would have been a nice career capstone if he could have inaugurated service between the two. From what I read via ONEX, he is staying on as a consultant and my WAG is that he'll be opening the cabin door from the jetway on the NZ end to welcome the first WJ flight to Auckland in a few years.

From Calgary, or Vancouver:

Vancouver is the more logical place to be launching China flights with its huge drawing area. Calgary could be a wildcard with the connecting hub that WJ is building and the added value they may be able to sell the Chinese authorities on having more links to Canada. Hainan Airlines was at one point doing flights between YYC and Beijing but that stopped in 2019. If anyone could make this route a success, it would be WJ.

The China rights need to be acquired, and pick between Shanghai / Beijing / Hong Kong / Guanghzou. I don't think you'll see WJ serving secondary cities in mainland China for a long time.
YVR receives service from seven mainland Chinese airlines (Air China, Hainan, China Southern, China Eastern, Beijing Capital, Sichaun, Xiamen) and Cathay Pacific could count as an 8th. Only Air Canada flies from Canada to China....so I am presuming their is space for another entrant from the Canadian end.

From either Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto:

Seoul -- likely with enhanced tie ins with Korean Air as part of the DL / KE TPAC JV. KE already serves all three destinations...perhaps we'll get double dailies on the routes divided between the two, or maybe a metal-neutral situation, with KE keeping the higher-yielding business destinations of YYZ and YVR and leaving YYC to WJ's relatively small J class B787s. I suspect much of WJ's initial foray into the Pacific Rim will be based on handing over passengers to KE at Seoul, for onward connections.

Tokyo.

WJ is almost certainly eyeing Delhi and Mumbai from all three of their hubs....it is probably a more long term goal.

Places that will almost certainly not be receiving be receiving WJ service in the next decade that have received service from Canada airlines in the past or still do on AC: Manila, Taipei, Bangkok, Singapore. The first three are high volume but low yielding....the last one is just a little too far and can be served through connecting hubs.

Thoughts?

All 6 of the 787s have been flying, none are in storage. WS also has the approvals required to fly to Asia and South America, not sure is still approvals need for specific cities.

To be honest I'm thinking that ICN and/or NRT/HND are more likely at this point than anything China. My bet would be either ICN or TYO (since AC's YYC-NRT flight was quite successful for the ten ish years it ran). Apparently, WS was actually planning for Asia in 2021 before COVID hit according to a link on a Flyertalk page. I could definitely see a YYC-TYO flight launches even in S22. It would be a great route to enter Asia but also a route that has already run for many years, so is a safer bet.

I’m not sure how successful YYC-NRT really was, it was downgraded to summer seasonal service in 2018 and loads were usually pretty light, not sure on yields. For WS, other routes were rumoured to start in winter 20/21, neither were in Asia. I think Asia is in the plans but longer term, Europe is more of the focus.

WS7M8 wrote:

YYCFlier wrote:

346fetish wrote:

I don't see WS entering YUL/YQB-CDG routes anytime soon. While YULCDG is the second biggest transatlantic market in Canada, it's a very well served and competitive route. WS has also little to no feed in YUL. This summer they only served YYZ, YYC & YVR from YUL. Goes to show how YUL has no strategic significance for them.

I know this is really hard for folks to understand but despite Montreal being the second largest city in Canada it is neither a hub nor focus city for WS. As such (as a spoke or out station) it has flights only to WestJet’s hubs. This isn’t changing anytime soon.

WS is not going to launch TATL from YUL. Ain’t happening. Any TATL MAX flights will be out of YYZ (hub) or YHZ (focus city). WS will go to CDG out of YHZ long before YUL is ever considered.

We'll agree to respectfully disagree.

I do get the points you are making.

At the same time, their planning folks would be foolish to ignore some tempting low-hanging fruit.

YUL-CDG is such a massive market, that AC/TS/AF put multiple frequencies of their biggest widebodies (77Ws, A380s, A333s) on daily all summer long. The demand is there. A lowly WS B737 Max 8, with 174 seats, could easily be filled despite their marginal presence in La Belle Province.

If anything YHZ-CDG is the oddball route as there are basically no logical links between the two cities (well, maybe if you want to go back to Samuel de Champlain and the Acadians but we're talking 300+ years ago). YHZ CDG is being filled with countless connections that they cleverly plan the Halifax summer schedule around. YUL CDG would be purely O&D traffic, and no matter WS' weaknesses in Quebec, they'll be able to fill the airplane.

At the same time, something that the some of the YYC crowd is having a hard time accepting is that WS is no longer a Calgary-centric airline. True it is their headquarters, and COVID has skewed YYZ ops down while YYC presently seems to have much more service BUT YYZ, YVR, and other Canadian cities such as YUL have far more long term growth potential for WS than Calgary, which doesn't have that much that can be added save for a few key long haul routes. The sooner WS realizes that, the better off they'll be.

Just a small point - I work at AF JFK and the A380 has been gone since March 2020. Out of JFK we fly a low density 77W on all 3 daily flights currently. 4 P-class seats and 58 J-class seats. Total seats 286.

In any case isn't WS joining SkyTeam? With Delta and AF/KL group could WS soon start service to JFK - that would cool!

WS flies to JFK already and has been since 2014.

In terms of joining skyteam, they are not interested. They don't see a great deal or upside for them in joining SkyTeam, but see tremendous upside in working with culturally and commercially aligned carriers on full profit share JVs. The days of revenue share tend to penalise carriers like WS who operate on a lower casm basis, and when you get into fully fledged joint ventures, their lower cost base is a huge attraction for other carriers who have broader international networks.

Rather than thinking they need to rush into an alliance where a lot of their carefully earned dollars could go into creating centres of excellence or go into creating head offices for the alliance rather than channelling that value into a really deep, sustainable, long-lasting joint ventures.

Ventures with transatlantic carriers who are more closely affiliated with Delta, like Air France, KLM, Virgin Atlantic. And that will make a lot more sense for them when they have daily operations into Charles de Gaulle, Amsterdam Schiphol, and into the UK.

WS is currently scheduled to resume YYC-JFK on November 1st twice weekly on Mondays / Fridays.

The B736s have officially been retired and won’t be returning to the fleet. Expect double digit deliveries of MAXs and the next 4 787s next year….

IceCream wrote:

To be honest I'm thinking that ICN and/or NRT/HND are more likely at this point than anything China. My bet would be either ICN or TYO (since AC's YYC-NRT flight was quite successful for the ten ish years it ran). Apparently, WS was actually planning for Asia in 2021 before COVID hit according to a link on a Flyertalk page. I could definitely see a YYC-TYO flight launches even in S22. It would be a great route to enter Asia but also a route that has already run for many years, so is a safer bet.

I think a YYC-HND flight would work well, but YYC-NRT would be a challenge. Narita works now only if someone has a connecting partner, to take passengers farther afield; no one wants to go to Tokyo itself by landing at Narita (which is more than an hour away from the city), rather than Haneda (which is just a short subway ride). If WestJet can get Haneda slots... that would be a winner.