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Miamiairport
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:06 pm

AC4500 wrote:
N62NA wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
I find it interesting how, with so many routes seeing Eagle metal, some routes now have mainline for the first time in a while. MIA-SAV and MIA-JAX come to mind.

Also surprised but delighted to see many PHX destinations seeing A319s, like FAR, OMA, and DSM. It's also interesting to see PHX-YYC/YVR reintroduced on mainline, even as the border remains closed.



MIA-SAV is interesting. Though a 9:25pm departure? Definitely not a very desirable departure time.

I believe AA has a pretty busy departure flight bank at MIA from 9:00 PM to 10:00 PM.

Here's an inconvenient flight: Their MIA-SEA flight departs from MIA at 9:05 PM and arrives at Seattle at 1:03 AM. At least the MIA-SAV flight arrives before midnight (at 11:06 PM).


Yep the post 9PM domestic departure bank is pretty much back to where it was pre COVID 19.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:36 pm

CLT to Alexandria (AEX) and Lafayette (LFT) in Louisiana will launch April‌ 2, operated daily by PSA.

DFW to St. George, Utah (SGU), expands from once-weekly to daily service, April‌ 2 through Sept.‌ 7, operated by SkyWest.

DFW to Daytona Beach, Florida (DAB), seasonal service will extend from April‌ 6 through Aug.‌ 16, operated by Mesa.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26645
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:11 pm

N62NA wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
I find it interesting how, with so many routes seeing Eagle metal, some routes now have mainline for the first time in a while. MIA-SAV and MIA-JAX come to mind.

Also surprised but delighted to see many PHX destinations seeing A319s, like FAR, OMA, and DSM. It's also interesting to see PHX-YYC/YVR reintroduced on mainline, even as the border remains closed.



MIA-SAV is interesting. Though a 9:25pm departure? Definitely not a very desirable departure time.


It's perfect timing for Caribbean connections and for people spending the weekend in Miami, who get a full last day. It's a pretty big domestic departure bank for AA in that 8-10pm timeframe from MIA.
a.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:21 pm

N62NA wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
I find it interesting how, with so many routes seeing Eagle metal, some routes now have mainline for the first time in a while. MIA-SAV and MIA-JAX come to mind.

Also surprised but delighted to see many PHX destinations seeing A319s, like FAR, OMA, and DSM. It's also interesting to see PHX-YYC/YVR reintroduced on mainline, even as the border remains closed.



MIA-SAV is interesting. Though a 9:25pm departure? Definitely not a very desirable departure time.

That departure time has always been around that time. I've had meetings in MIA and then had to travel for business to SAV. So, I've been on that very flight.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:24 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
N62NA wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
I find it interesting how, with so many routes seeing Eagle metal, some routes now have mainline for the first time in a while. MIA-SAV and MIA-JAX come to mind.

Also surprised but delighted to see many PHX destinations seeing A319s, like FAR, OMA, and DSM. It's also interesting to see PHX-YYC/YVR reintroduced on mainline, even as the border remains closed.



MIA-SAV is interesting. Though a 9:25pm departure? Definitely not a very desirable departure time.

That departure time has always been around that time. I've had meetings in MIA and then had to travel for business to SAV. So, I've been on that very flight.


Another point to add on the SAV-MIA flights is that it's basically the only convenient option for those in Savannah to get to Miami for a same-day business type trip.

If you're going to South Florida from Savannah, you have basically the following options: (1) 6-7 hour drive each way up and down I-95 (which isn't fun at all); (2) backtrack via Charlotte or Atlanta (minimum four hours to do the two legs); (3) take the lone nonstop (roughly 90 minute block time) and just wait.

If I had to choose between connecting (last Delta option is at 718p from MIA, arriving SAV at 1048p) or the nonstop, and assuming other factors (loyalty program, etc.), I'd take the nonstop and have a nice dinner in Miami rather than dashing through Atlanta on a 35 minute connection.
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4535
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:41 am

AC4500 wrote:
N62NA wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
I find it interesting how, with so many routes seeing Eagle metal, some routes now have mainline for the first time in a while. MIA-SAV and MIA-JAX come to mind.

Also surprised but delighted to see many PHX destinations seeing A319s, like FAR, OMA, and DSM. It's also interesting to see PHX-YYC/YVR reintroduced on mainline, even as the border remains closed.



MIA-SAV is interesting. Though a 9:25pm departure? Definitely not a very desirable departure time.

I believe AA has a pretty busy departure flight bank at MIA from 9:00 PM to 10:00 PM.

Here's an inconvenient flight: Their MIA-SEA flight departs from MIA at 9:05 PM and arrives at Seattle at 1:03 AM. At least the MIA-SAV flight arrives before midnight (at 11:06 PM).



Yeah, I had forgotten about the connecting opportunities. I hope the MIA-SAV flight does well.

That MIA-SEA flight also seems pretty awful if you live in South Florida, though maybe AS will add some service when they are officially in OneWorld.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6615
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:49 am

N62NA wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
N62NA wrote:


MIA-SAV is interesting. Though a 9:25pm departure? Definitely not a very desirable departure time.

I believe AA has a pretty busy departure flight bank at MIA from 9:00 PM to 10:00 PM.

Here's an inconvenient flight: Their MIA-SEA flight departs from MIA at 9:05 PM and arrives at Seattle at 1:03 AM. At least the MIA-SAV flight arrives before midnight (at 11:06 PM).



Yeah, I had forgotten about the connecting opportunities. I hope the MIA-SAV flight does well.

That MIA-SEA flight also seems pretty awful if you live in South Florida, though maybe AS will add some service when they are officially in OneWorld.


As others noted, the late MIA-SEA flight time is good for connections from Central and South America. I flew that flight awhile back, connecting from Latin America, and landed in SEA around 12:30am. It was fine.

AA also has a late night bank of departures from DFW. I’ve also connected to that DFW-SEA flight a number of times. It also usually lands around 12:30am.

If AA or AS decided to get slots for a couple of DFW-PAE flights like that well timed for connections, I’d be in heaven.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26645
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:23 am

Miami-Jackson, Mississippi also loaded into GDS for June. Was supposed to launch last summer.
a.
 
phllax
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:28 am

maps4ltd wrote:
Also surprised but delighted to see many PHX destinations seeing A319s, like FAR, OMA, and DSM.


DSM has been all mainline for some years after lumbering along mostly with CR2’s. I cannot remember if It returned around the same time they added CLT and PHL in 2012 or when Allegiant announced IWA in late 15. It has even gone 3 daily at different times throughout the year. OMA retained mainline to PHX due to WN and bigger corporate contracts.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:00 pm

onwFan wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
We've already seen DL respond to AA with their own plans for (re)launching SEA-LHR (which sadly, seems to have permanently replaced their PDX-LHR flight.

What are the odds that that SEA-LHR even launches? Even VS doesn’t fly on the route now. There is no way DL/VS are flying 2x daily anytime soon. SEA-PKX cannot come back for probably another year. Watch out for PDX/MSP-HND next when the slot waivers end.

DL previously had the privilege to dilly-dally with a lot of things like HND, SEA, BOS, MIA (not to mention all those focus cities), but right now? I doubt it, especially for the next few years with depressed business demand. AA knows that DL will have to make numerous adjustments to their TPAC operations, especially with the KE/OZ merger. AA’s west coast strategy will be closely tied to DL’s plans at HND and SEA.

If cute how you list all those problems for Delta but act like American doesn't have the same issue.

AA/BA aren't tossing a ton of money losing capacity on SEA-LHR, just like DL/VS
AA is going to have the same exact limits to China that Delta/United will. Its highly unlikely anyone is flying going to be able to add more than a handful of weekly flying to China any time soon. (first mover will of course be United via SFO)
Not sure what PDX/MSP-HND have to do with Seattle other than the typical ownFan rant about how Delta is screwed in literally everything they do. But if Delta were to give up on PDX/MSP-HND, it certainly will have absolutely nothing to do with what American does in Seattle (or American period)

right now, Delta has a much, much better balance sheet and isn't staring yet another Chapter 11 run in the face. American is. The only thing any of these stupid pie in the sky adds like SEA-PVG/BLR does for American is drive them into bankruptcy faster. Right now, or anything in the near term, will be nothing more than a dumpster fire.
 
illinicmi
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:21 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:16 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
If cute how you list all those problems for Delta but act like American doesn't have the same issue.

AA/BA aren't tossing a ton of money losing capacity on SEA-LHR, just like DL/VS
AA is going to have the same exact limits to China that Delta/United will. Its highly unlikely anyone is flying going to be able to add more than a handful of weekly flying to China any time soon. (first mover will of course be United via SFO)
Not sure what PDX/MSP-HND have to do with Seattle other than the typical ownFan rant about how Delta is screwed in literally everything they do. But if Delta were to give up on PDX/MSP-HND, it certainly will have absolutely nothing to do with what American does in Seattle (or American period)

right now, Delta has a much, much better balance sheet and isn't staring yet another Chapter 11 run in the face. American is. The only thing any of these stupid pie in the sky adds like SEA-PVG/BLR does for American is drive them into bankruptcy faster. Right now, or anything in the near term, will be nothing more than a dumpster fire.


I love how DL fanboys like to bash AA fanboys on here without a hint of irony.

All airlines, including AA and DL, are facing tough times right now, up to and including Chapter 11. Just a fact of the world we live in right now.

We all know AS still owns Seattle, so whoever is in bed with them has the advantage there. Period.
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:18 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Miami-Jackson, Mississippi also loaded into GDS for June. Was supposed to launch last summer.

Good catch. Looks like its Sa/Su service with E145. Is this new or a return of some old seasonal service?
-Andrés Juánez
 
onwFan
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:56 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
onwFan wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
We've already seen DL respond to AA with their own plans for (re)launching SEA-LHR (which sadly, seems to have permanently replaced their PDX-LHR flight.

What are the odds that that SEA-LHR even launches? Even VS doesn’t fly on the route now. There is no way DL/VS are flying 2x daily anytime soon. SEA-PKX cannot come back for probably another year. Watch out for PDX/MSP-HND next when the slot waivers end.

DL previously had the privilege to dilly-dally with a lot of things like HND, SEA, BOS, MIA (not to mention all those focus cities), but right now? I doubt it, especially for the next few years with depressed business demand. AA knows that DL will have to make numerous adjustments to their TPAC operations, especially with the KE/OZ merger. AA’s west coast strategy will be closely tied to DL’s plans at HND and SEA.

If cute how you list all those problems for Delta but act like American doesn't have the same issue.

AA/BA aren't tossing a ton of money losing capacity on SEA-LHR, just like DL/VS
AA is going to have the same exact limits to China that Delta/United will. Its highly unlikely anyone is flying going to be able to add more than a handful of weekly flying to China any time soon. (first mover will of course be United via SFO)
Not sure what PDX/MSP-HND have to do with Seattle other than the typical ownFan rant about how Delta is screwed in literally everything they do. But if Delta were to give up on PDX/MSP-HND, it certainly will have absolutely nothing to do with what American does in Seattle (or American period)

right now, Delta has a much, much better balance sheet and isn't staring yet another Chapter 11 run in the face. American is. The only thing any of these stupid pie in the sky adds like SEA-PVG/BLR does for American is drive them into bankruptcy faster. Right now, or anything in the near term, will be nothing more than a dumpster fire.

PDX/MSP-HND is relevant because it is part of their TPAC operation and evidently the weakest routes (based on the fact that these are not even planned daily in the future). DL needs to make a decision on how to strike a balance on TPAC capacity at SEA, ICN and HND. OW dominance in the PNW and AA’s adds will definitely play a role in DL’s restructuring, immediately at PDX, and soon at SEA.

PS: As for the rest of your rant, I think personal attacks like these are totally unnecessary. Looks like you are simply upset that DL’s TPAC strategy is starting to blow up on their face.
 
AC4500
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:55 pm

onwFan wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
onwFan wrote:
What are the odds that that SEA-LHR even launches? Even VS doesn’t fly on the route now. There is no way DL/VS are flying 2x daily anytime soon. SEA-PKX cannot come back for probably another year. Watch out for PDX/MSP-HND next when the slot waivers end.

DL previously had the privilege to dilly-dally with a lot of things like HND, SEA, BOS, MIA (not to mention all those focus cities), but right now? I doubt it, especially for the next few years with depressed business demand. AA knows that DL will have to make numerous adjustments to their TPAC operations, especially with the KE/OZ merger. AA’s west coast strategy will be closely tied to DL’s plans at HND and SEA.

If cute how you list all those problems for Delta but act like American doesn't have the same issue.

AA/BA aren't tossing a ton of money losing capacity on SEA-LHR, just like DL/VS
AA is going to have the same exact limits to China that Delta/United will. Its highly unlikely anyone is flying going to be able to add more than a handful of weekly flying to China any time soon. (first mover will of course be United via SFO)
Not sure what PDX/MSP-HND have to do with Seattle other than the typical ownFan rant about how Delta is screwed in literally everything they do. But if Delta were to give up on PDX/MSP-HND, it certainly will have absolutely nothing to do with what American does in Seattle (or American period)

right now, Delta has a much, much better balance sheet and isn't staring yet another Chapter 11 run in the face. American is. The only thing any of these stupid pie in the sky adds like SEA-PVG/BLR does for American is drive them into bankruptcy faster. Right now, or anything in the near term, will be nothing more than a dumpster fire.

PDX/MSP-HND is relevant because it is part of their TPAC operation and evidently the weakest routes (based on the fact that these are not even planned daily in the future). DL needs to make a decision on how to strike a balance on TPAC capacity at SEA, ICN and HND. OW dominance in the PNW and AA’s adds will definitely play a role in DL’s restructuring, immediately at PDX, and soon at SEA.

PS: As for the rest of your rant, I think personal attacks like these are totally unnecessary. Looks like you are simply upset that DL’s TPAC strategy is starting to blow up on their face.

I certainly don't agree with that other user's personal attacks, however, the future of Delta's PDX-HND flight has absolutely no correlation with AA's future TPAC plans in SEA. PDX-HND solely relies on O&D traffic, particularly from corporate clients such as Nike. Unless AA decides to make some moves at PDX (incredibly unlikely), then OW dominance at SEA will not be a factor in how Delta plans to operate PDX-HND in the future.

Now, on the other hand, when BA announced PDX-LHR nonstop flights, that put DL in a much tougher position because BA would have been able to gain extra feed from connecting AS passengers through PDX. However, despite speculation on this website and comparisons to DL ending PIT-CDG when BA announced PIT-LHR, DL stuck it out and we were set to have two daily PDX-LHR flights in the summer of 2020. However, COVID took all of that away and now we're stuck with nothing at all.....

My point is, Delta's strategy for PDX-HND will not change based on anything that happens in Seattle. If PDX-HND does ultimately get nixed for good, it'll be because of the nonexistent/super slow recovery of the O&D business traffic that Delta has heavily relied on in order to make this route work at all in the first place.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:27 pm

AC4500 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
If cute how you list all those problems for Delta but act like American doesn't have the same issue.

AA/BA aren't tossing a ton of money losing capacity on SEA-LHR, just like DL/VS
AA is going to have the same exact limits to China that Delta/United will. Its highly unlikely anyone is flying going to be able to add more than a handful of weekly flying to China any time soon. (first mover will of course be United via SFO)
Not sure what PDX/MSP-HND have to do with Seattle other than the typical ownFan rant about how Delta is screwed in literally everything they do. But if Delta were to give up on PDX/MSP-HND, it certainly will have absolutely nothing to do with what American does in Seattle (or American period)

right now, Delta has a much, much better balance sheet and isn't staring yet another Chapter 11 run in the face. American is. The only thing any of these stupid pie in the sky adds like SEA-PVG/BLR does for American is drive them into bankruptcy faster. Right now, or anything in the near term, will be nothing more than a dumpster fire.

PDX/MSP-HND is relevant because it is part of their TPAC operation and evidently the weakest routes (based on the fact that these are not even planned daily in the future). DL needs to make a decision on how to strike a balance on TPAC capacity at SEA, ICN and HND. OW dominance in the PNW and AA’s adds will definitely play a role in DL’s restructuring, immediately at PDX, and soon at SEA.

PS: As for the rest of your rant, I think personal attacks like these are totally unnecessary. Looks like you are simply upset that DL’s TPAC strategy is starting to blow up on their face.

I certainly don't agree with that other user's personal attacks, however, the future of Delta's PDX-HND flight has absolutely no correlation with AA's future TPAC plans in SEA. PDX-HND solely relies on O&D traffic, particularly from corporate clients such as Nike. Unless AA decides to make some moves at PDX (incredibly unlikely), then OW dominance at SEA will not be a factor in how Delta plans to operate PDX-HND in the future.

Now, on the other hand, when BA announced PDX-LHR nonstop flights, that put DL in a much tougher position because BA would have been able to gain extra feed from connecting AS passengers through PDX. However, despite speculation on this website and comparisons to DL ending PIT-CDG when BA announced PIT-LHR, DL stuck it out and we were set to have two daily PDX-LHR flights in the summer of 2020. However, COVID took all of that away and now we're stuck with nothing at all.....

My point is, Delta's strategy for PDX-HND will not change based on anything that happens in Seattle. If PDX-HND does ultimately get nixed for good, it'll be because of the nonexistent/super slow recovery of the O&D business traffic that Delta has heavily relied on in order to make this route work at all in the first place.


I disagree on this part. PDX-SEA is a <45 minute flight that currently runs about 15 times/day (and was even more in the pre-Covid days). PDX is a major Mileage Plan city as well; it's very conceivable that someone that really wants to earn their AS status might choose to go PDX-SEA-NRT to earn their miles rather than take PDX-HND on a less-than-daily basis. Right now, the fact that Delta would be flying into Haneda on a less-than-daily basis basically offsets the fact that JAL goes into Narita from Seattle (HND the better airport, JL the frequency advantage). As AA (and OneWorld) build up Seattle international flying, that makes them much more compelling to a Portland-based flyer. Right now, if you're a primarily international flyer out of Portland, DL makes more sense since you can do that quick hop to SEA and go to Asia or Europe; OW building up Seattle will help make them a more compelling option, and then when you combine that with the fact that AS has a domestic operation out of PDX that runs laps around DL there, and it can help build an even stronger, more loyal base.
 
onwFan
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:32 pm

AC4500 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
If cute how you list all those problems for Delta but act like American doesn't have the same issue.

AA/BA aren't tossing a ton of money losing capacity on SEA-LHR, just like DL/VS
AA is going to have the same exact limits to China that Delta/United will. Its highly unlikely anyone is flying going to be able to add more than a handful of weekly flying to China any time soon. (first mover will of course be United via SFO)
Not sure what PDX/MSP-HND have to do with Seattle other than the typical ownFan rant about how Delta is screwed in literally everything they do. But if Delta were to give up on PDX/MSP-HND, it certainly will have absolutely nothing to do with what American does in Seattle (or American period)

right now, Delta has a much, much better balance sheet and isn't staring yet another Chapter 11 run in the face. American is. The only thing any of these stupid pie in the sky adds like SEA-PVG/BLR does for American is drive them into bankruptcy faster. Right now, or anything in the near term, will be nothing more than a dumpster fire.

PDX/MSP-HND is relevant because it is part of their TPAC operation and evidently the weakest routes (based on the fact that these are not even planned daily in the future). DL needs to make a decision on how to strike a balance on TPAC capacity at SEA, ICN and HND. OW dominance in the PNW and AA’s adds will definitely play a role in DL’s restructuring, immediately at PDX, and soon at SEA.

PS: As for the rest of your rant, I think personal attacks like these are totally unnecessary. Looks like you are simply upset that DL’s TPAC strategy is starting to blow up on their face.

I certainly don't agree with that other user's personal attacks, however, the future of Delta's PDX-HND flight has absolutely no correlation with AA's future TPAC plans in SEA. PDX-HND solely relies on O&D traffic, particularly from corporate clients such as Nike. Unless AA decides to make some moves at PDX (incredibly unlikely), then OW dominance at SEA will not be a factor in how Delta plans to operate PDX-HND in the future.

Now, on the other hand, when BA announced PDX-LHR nonstop flights, that put DL in a much tougher position because BA would have been able to gain extra feed from connecting AS passengers through PDX. However, despite speculation on this website and comparisons to DL ending PIT-CDG when BA announced PIT-LHR, DL stuck it out and we were set to have two daily PDX-LHR flights in the summer of 2020. However, COVID took all of that away and now we're stuck with nothing at all.....

My point is, Delta's strategy for PDX-HND will not change based on anything that happens in Seattle. If PDX-HND does ultimately get nixed for good, it'll be because of the nonexistent/super slow recovery of the O&D business traffic that Delta has heavily relied on in order to make this route work at all in the first place.

Never was it my point that AA expanding in SEA is what would lead to DL dropping PDX-HND. It was that AS joining oneworld that would make the difference, because of two reasons:-
(a) JL was rumored to be considering NRT-PDX with Zipair.
(b) We never got to see fully how successful DL will be after they move everything to HND.

I agree that the route has succeeded with contracts & for the most part of history with onward feed at NRT with the intra-Asia routes. PDX-NRT was always one of the routes that DL reduced the frequencies in, and are now. Of course, it is my personal interpretation that the contracts alone are insufficient to maintain it at 1x daily. But I stick to my hypothesis that the days of a SkyTeam carrier’s niche on P2P route between two oneworld hubs is numbered. I am happy to be proved wrong, but either way we’ll see soon.

As for when BA launched PDX-LHR, DL only announced their intention to launch SEA-LHR, without DL/VS making any deletions to their LHR routes. They never touched the inventory on PDX-LHR. DL loaded SEA-LHR much later after they dropped several LHR frequencies along with PDX. Given just that, there is no reason to believe that they intended to fly both PDX-LHR and SEA-LHR.
 
AC4500
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:07 pm

deltairlines wrote:
I disagree on this part. PDX-SEA is a <45 minute flight that currently runs about 15 times/day (and was even more in the pre-Covid days). PDX is a major Mileage Plan city as well; it's very conceivable that someone that really wants to earn their AS status might choose to go PDX-SEA-NRT to earn their miles rather than take PDX-HND on a less-than-daily basis. Right now, the fact that Delta would be flying into Haneda on a less-than-daily basis basically offsets the fact that JAL goes into Narita from Seattle (HND the better airport, JL the frequency advantage). As AA (and OneWorld) build up Seattle international flying, that makes them much more compelling to a Portland-based flyer. Right now, if you're a primarily international flyer out of Portland, DL makes more sense since you can do that quick hop to SEA and go to Asia or Europe; OW building up Seattle will help make them a more compelling option, and then when you combine that with the fact that AS has a domestic operation out of PDX that runs laps around DL there, and it can help build an even stronger, more loyal base.

If there is a nonstop option available, I think any corporate customer would take that over a connection, even if it's just a 45 minute hop to Seattle. If that weren't the case, then there would be no PDX-TYO flight at all. AA announced plans to build up a SEA TPAC gateway before COVID hit (February 2020, IIRC), and JAL was flying SEA-NRT in 2019, long before that announcement was made, and relied on AS connecting passengers through SEA at that point. I'm guessing that a good handful of those passengers on each daily flight were from Portland, probably those with an AS mileage plan. At that point, DL still had plans for a daily PDX-HND flight. The less than daily schedule for Delta on PDX-HND now is currently reminiscent of the airlines not really knowing a solid timeline for when international travel will begin to resume, and nothing to do with OneWorld in SEA.

onwFan wrote:
Never was it my point that AA expanding in SEA is what would lead to DL dropping PDX-HND. It was that AS joining oneworld that would make the difference, because of two reasons:-
(a) JL was rumored to be considering NRT-PDX with Zipair.
(b) We never got to see fully how successful DL will be after they move everything to HND.

I agree that the route has succeeded with contracts & for the most part of history with onward feed at NRT with the intra-Asia routes. PDX-NRT was always one of the routes that DL reduced the frequencies in, and are now. Of course, it is my personal interpretation that the contracts alone are insufficient to maintain it at 1x daily. But I stick to my hypothesis that the days of a SkyTeam carrier’s niche on P2P route between two oneworld hubs is numbered. I am happy to be proved wrong, but either way we’ll see soon.

As for when BA launched PDX-LHR, DL only announced their intention to launch SEA-LHR, without DL/VS making any deletions to their LHR routes. They never touched the inventory on PDX-LHR. DL loaded SEA-LHR much later after they dropped several LHR frequencies along with PDX. Given just that, there is no reason to believe that they intended to fly both PDX-LHR and SEA-LHR.

Fair enough, apologies for misinterpreting your initial post.

I guess I just don't think that AS joining OneWorld automatically makes PDX a OneWorld hub. IMO, there wouldn't be much of a point in JL adding NRT-PDX now because that would potentially take away passengers from their NRT-SEA flight. NRT-SEA is obviously the higher yielding route of the two, so JL would need as many passengers on that flight as possible. Not to mention that AS has a lot more connecting flights available for JAL's passengers in SEA than they do at PDX. However, if JL did add NRT-PDX, they might have the potential to take away the local O&D traffic and Portland-based AS loyalists with an AS mileage plan, but it would still be a very big risk for JL to do this.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:47 pm

AC4500 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
If there is a nonstop option available, I think any corporate customer would take that over a connection, even if it's just a 45 minute hop to Seattle. If that weren't the case, then there would be no PDX-TYO flight at all. AA announced plans to build up a SEA TPAC gateway before COVID hit (February 2020, IIRC), and JAL was flying SEA-NRT in 2019, long before that announcement was made, and relied on AS connecting passengers through SEA at that point. I'm guessing that a good handful of those passengers on each daily flight were from Portland, probably those with an AS mileage plan. At that point, DL still had plans for a daily PDX-HND flight. The less than daily schedule for Delta on PDX-HND now is currently reminiscent of the airlines not really knowing a solid timeline for when international travel will begin to resume, and nothing to do with OneWorld in SEA.


Having been a corporate customer living in Minneapolis earlier in my life, I happily chose to forego nonstops to the West Coast and took United where I made 1K. I did have the occasional nonstop to SFO, but most of my travel was to SoCal (normally either in Orange County or the Ontario area). ONT was a connection no matter what, but I could easily do a connection over DEN on United to get me into SNA by 1000a. Why did I do this? The schedule worked fine, and because United Mileage Plus miles were then (and quite frankly still are) far superior than SkyMiles. If I was going to Asia on a paid business class fare, I'd much rather deviate an hour to get me a ton more valuable miles than take the nonstop and get SkyPesos.
 
illinicmi
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:21 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:21 pm

deltairlines wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
If there is a nonstop option available, I think any corporate customer would take that over a connection, even if it's just a 45 minute hop to Seattle. If that weren't the case, then there would be no PDX-TYO flight at all. AA announced plans to build up a SEA TPAC gateway before COVID hit (February 2020, IIRC), and JAL was flying SEA-NRT in 2019, long before that announcement was made, and relied on AS connecting passengers through SEA at that point. I'm guessing that a good handful of those passengers on each daily flight were from Portland, probably those with an AS mileage plan. At that point, DL still had plans for a daily PDX-HND flight. The less than daily schedule for Delta on PDX-HND now is currently reminiscent of the airlines not really knowing a solid timeline for when international travel will begin to resume, and nothing to do with OneWorld in SEA.


Having been a corporate customer living in Minneapolis earlier in my life, I happily chose to forego nonstops to the West Coast and took United where I made 1K. I did have the occasional nonstop to SFO, but most of my travel was to SoCal (normally either in Orange County or the Ontario area). ONT was a connection no matter what, but I could easily do a connection over DEN on United to get me into SNA by 1000a. Why did I do this? The schedule worked fine, and because United Mileage Plus miles were then (and quite frankly still are) far superior than SkyMiles. If I was going to Asia on a paid business class fare, I'd much rather deviate an hour to get me a ton more valuable miles than take the nonstop and get SkyPesos.


Yeah I sort of feel like the loyalty to a certain "currency" of miles (and therefore status) is wildly downplayed around here. If you live in PDX and have AS miles, or WANT to use AS miles, you're gonna connect to SEA and fly out. You just are.
 
formeraa
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:27 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:50 pm

SESGDL wrote:
There’s a lot of delusional here with all this speculation about the country’s weakest airline financially, operating in the worst international environment we’ve ever seen, out of an entirely new “hub” suddenly starting all of these incredibly expensive international flights against already entrenched carriers and somehow running off the competition and making it so others “don’t stand a chance.” AA’s widebody fleet is significantly smaller than it used to be. There’s no way we’re going to see AA duplicating what it had/has at DFW and LAX from SEA. SEA is a smaller market and already has strong competition to all of the largest markets, not a good place for a struggling, high-cost carrier to be. I see BLR and LHR and maybe one or two more routes to OW strongholds (perhaps a resumption of Tokyo) but I don’t foresee AA suddenly operating a UA/SFO-style hub at SEA. If they do, it will be a brutal, loss-leading operation for years to come.

Jeremy


AGREED! AA is starting a limited number of international flights based on AS's existing SEA hub. AA will be using EXISTING AS/AA flights to feed the international flights. We will not see some huge "build up" of AA flights at SEA. FWIW, SEA doesn't have the room for that longer-term anyway.

Plus, has anyone looked at the timing of the transpac return flights arriving at SEA between 3 and 4pm. Most of the connecting passengers will be in the Western US (AS destinations). Certainly there won't be any East Coast connections at that time of day, unless passengers wait 7 or 8 hours for redeye connections.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 593
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:56 pm

When will JFK - ATH / TLV be announced? I am going to move PHL - ATH to JFK - ATH to be operated with Boeing 777-200ER, and leave B788 free for Latin American markets
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG - UA
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1950
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:45 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
When will JFK - ATH / TLV be announced? I am going to move PHL - ATH to JFK - ATH to be operated with Boeing 777-200ER, and leave B788 free for Latin American markets


What?
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:58 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
When will JFK - ATH / TLV be announced? I am going to move PHL - ATH to JFK - ATH to be operated with Boeing 777-200ER, and leave B788 free for Latin American markets


What?


Excuse the translation error, what I wanted to say was, I think AA is going to move its flight PHL - ATH to JFK-ATH, from JFK it can be operated with Boeing 777-200ER and it would free Boeing 787-8 for routes to Latin America, now my question when will they announce JFK-TLV / ATH
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG - UA
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4292
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:24 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
When will JFK - ATH / TLV be announced? I am going to move PHL - ATH to JFK - ATH to be operated with Boeing 777-200ER, and leave B788 free for Latin American markets


What?


Excuse the translation error, what I wanted to say was, I think AA is going to move its flight PHL - ATH to JFK-ATH, from JFK it can be operated with Boeing 777-200ER and it would free Boeing 787-8 for routes to Latin America, now my question when will they announce JFK-TLV / ATH


Freeing up widebodies is far from an issue right now and PHL will have a 777 base soon.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:47 am

There is no reason to move Athens from Philadelphia. Philadelphia and Chicago connect the entire country and many smaller cities to Athens with 1 stop.

New York has tons of local traffic to Greece that Chicago and Philadelphia can't capture, but Philadelphia has traffic from the entire country that JFK cannot capture. They serve an entirely different purpose.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:08 am

formeraa wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
There’s a lot of delusional here with all this speculation about the country’s weakest airline financially, operating in the worst international environment we’ve ever seen, out of an entirely new “hub” suddenly starting all of these incredibly expensive international flights against already entrenched carriers and somehow running off the competition and making it so others “don’t stand a chance.” AA’s widebody fleet is significantly smaller than it used to be. There’s no way we’re going to see AA duplicating what it had/has at DFW and LAX from SEA. SEA is a smaller market and already has strong competition to all of the largest markets, not a good place for a struggling, high-cost carrier to be. I see BLR and LHR and maybe one or two more routes to OW strongholds (perhaps a resumption of Tokyo) but I don’t foresee AA suddenly operating a UA/SFO-style hub at SEA. If they do, it will be a brutal, loss-leading operation for years to come.

Jeremy


AGREED! AA is starting a limited number of international flights based on AS's existing SEA hub. AA will be using EXISTING AS/AA flights to feed the international flights. We will not see some huge "build up" of AA flights at SEA. FWIW, SEA doesn't have the room for that longer-term anyway.

Plus, has anyone looked at the timing of the transpac return flights arriving at SEA between 3 and 4pm. Most of the connecting passengers will be in the Western US (AS destinations). Certainly there won't be any East Coast connections at that time of day, unless passengers wait 7 or 8 hours for redeye connections.


Given that AA has the JV with JAL, most AA passengers can connect over Tokyo from BOS/JFK/ORD/DFW (depending on where they are located) and go into Asia from there.

It's a similar argument that was used with DL when they built up the SEA TPAC hub - if you are a business class passenger on the East Coast, would you rather go via DTW (and have a <1000 mile flight in a domestic F seat, then a true J seat going to Asia for 6000+ miles) or go via SEA where it's a transcon in a domestic F seat and then a shorter flight to Asia in a true J seat? Same is true here - I'd rather connect over the closer domestic hub such as DFW and get the longer trip in J than go via SEA. As for BLR, if you're on the East Coast, it's simply easier to go over the pond to LHR and hop on British Airways there. The only potential downside to this (and I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable about the AA/BA JBA can teach me on this) is that I don't know if the AA/BA JBA covers India.
 
onwFan
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:14 am

deltairlines wrote:
formeraa wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
There’s a lot of delusional here with all this speculation about the country’s weakest airline financially, operating in the worst international environment we’ve ever seen, out of an entirely new “hub” suddenly starting all of these incredibly expensive international flights against already entrenched carriers and somehow running off the competition and making it so others “don’t stand a chance.” AA’s widebody fleet is significantly smaller than it used to be. There’s no way we’re going to see AA duplicating what it had/has at DFW and LAX from SEA. SEA is a smaller market and already has strong competition to all of the largest markets, not a good place for a struggling, high-cost carrier to be. I see BLR and LHR and maybe one or two more routes to OW strongholds (perhaps a resumption of Tokyo) but I don’t foresee AA suddenly operating a UA/SFO-style hub at SEA. If they do, it will be a brutal, loss-leading operation for years to come.

Jeremy


AGREED! AA is starting a limited number of international flights based on AS's existing SEA hub. AA will be using EXISTING AS/AA flights to feed the international flights. We will not see some huge "build up" of AA flights at SEA. FWIW, SEA doesn't have the room for that longer-term anyway.

Plus, has anyone looked at the timing of the transpac return flights arriving at SEA between 3 and 4pm. Most of the connecting passengers will be in the Western US (AS destinations). Certainly there won't be any East Coast connections at that time of day, unless passengers wait 7 or 8 hours for redeye connections.


Given that AA has the JV with JAL, most AA passengers can connect over Tokyo from BOS/JFK/ORD/DFW (depending on where they are located) and go into Asia from there.

It's a similar argument that was used with DL when they built up the SEA TPAC hub - if you are a business class passenger on the East Coast, would you rather go via DTW (and have a <1000 mile flight in a domestic F seat, then a true J seat going to Asia for 6000+ miles) or go via SEA where it's a transcon in a domestic F seat and then a shorter flight to Asia in a true J seat? Same is true here - I'd rather connect over the closer domestic hub such as DFW and get the longer trip in J than go via SEA. As for BLR, if you're on the East Coast, it's simply easier to go over the pond to LHR and hop on British Airways there. The only potential downside to this (and I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable about the AA/BA JBA can teach me on this) is that I don't know if the AA/BA JBA covers India.

Yup, the AA/BA JV covers India. Additionally AA also codeshares on all CX services into India (not JV).
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:36 am

onwFan wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
formeraa wrote:

AGREED! AA is starting a limited number of international flights based on AS's existing SEA hub. AA will be using EXISTING AS/AA flights to feed the international flights. We will not see some huge "build up" of AA flights at SEA. FWIW, SEA doesn't have the room for that longer-term anyway.

Plus, has anyone looked at the timing of the transpac return flights arriving at SEA between 3 and 4pm. Most of the connecting passengers will be in the Western US (AS destinations). Certainly there won't be any East Coast connections at that time of day, unless passengers wait 7 or 8 hours for redeye connections.


Given that AA has the JV with JAL, most AA passengers can connect over Tokyo from BOS/JFK/ORD/DFW (depending on where they are located) and go into Asia from there.

It's a similar argument that was used with DL when they built up the SEA TPAC hub - if you are a business class passenger on the East Coast, would you rather go via DTW (and have a <1000 mile flight in a domestic F seat, then a true J seat going to Asia for 6000+ miles) or go via SEA where it's a transcon in a domestic F seat and then a shorter flight to Asia in a true J seat? Same is true here - I'd rather connect over the closer domestic hub such as DFW and get the longer trip in J than go via SEA. As for BLR, if you're on the East Coast, it's simply easier to go over the pond to LHR and hop on British Airways there. The only potential downside to this (and I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable about the AA/BA JBA can teach me on this) is that I don't know if the AA/BA JBA covers India.

Yup, the AA/BA JV covers India. Additionally AA also codeshares on all CX services into India (not JV).


Thanks. I knew the CX codeshare was simply a codeshare and not JBA, but wasn't sure about BA into India (I'm far more experienced in dealing with the DL/AF/KL JV into India). With the AA move to T5 at Heathrow, that only makes more sense to send BLR travelers over Heathrow than Seattle from the East Coast.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6613
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:14 am

deltairlines wrote:
onwFan wrote:
deltairlines wrote:

Given that AA has the JV with JAL, most AA passengers can connect over Tokyo from BOS/JFK/ORD/DFW (depending on where they are located) and go into Asia from there.

It's a similar argument that was used with DL when they built up the SEA TPAC hub - if you are a business class passenger on the East Coast, would you rather go via DTW (and have a <1000 mile flight in a domestic F seat, then a true J seat going to Asia for 6000+ miles) or go via SEA where it's a transcon in a domestic F seat and then a shorter flight to Asia in a true J seat? Same is true here - I'd rather connect over the closer domestic hub such as DFW and get the longer trip in J than go via SEA. As for BLR, if you're on the East Coast, it's simply easier to go over the pond to LHR and hop on British Airways there. The only potential downside to this (and I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable about the AA/BA JBA can teach me on this) is that I don't know if the AA/BA JBA covers India.

Yup, the AA/BA JV covers India. Additionally AA also codeshares on all CX services into India (not JV).


Thanks. I knew the CX codeshare was simply a codeshare and not JBA, but wasn't sure about BA into India (I'm far more experienced in dealing with the DL/AF/KL JV into India). With the AA move to T5 at Heathrow, that only makes more sense to send BLR travelers over Heathrow than Seattle from the East Coast.


Keep in mind that you can earn qualifying miles on cx flights as aa ff. There is not much difference between flying cx and jl if you are an aa ff. A big difference vs dl and ua that is constantly underestimated here on a.net. During non covid times, cx actually provides the best coverage into Southeast Asia from major us cities. Which would make aa actually the preferred carrier to Southeast Asia without ever seeing aa metal.

So from that perspective, adding blr and pvg would give ow flyers better coverage into Asia than dl flyers. Assuming of course cx sticks around. That’s the difference between relying on Jvs vs alliance. Now of course, the counterpoint is why would sea area ff want to join aa when as provides all of that already? I have no answer to that one.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Yup, the AA/BA JV covers India. Additionally AA also codeshares on all CX services into India (not JV).


Thanks. I knew the CX codeshare was simply a codeshare and not JBA, but wasn't sure about BA into India (I'm far more experienced in dealing with the DL/AF/KL JV into India). With the AA move to T5 at Heathrow, that only makes more sense to send BLR travelers over Heathrow than Seattle from the East Coast.


Keep in mind that you can earn qualifying miles on cx flights as aa ff. There is not much difference between flying cx and jl if you are an aa ff. A big difference vs dl and ua that is constantly underestimated here on a.net. During non covid times, cx actually provides the best coverage into Southeast Asia from major us cities. Which would make aa actually the preferred carrier to Southeast Asia without ever seeing aa metal.

So from that perspective, adding blr and pvg would give ow flyers better coverage into Asia than dl flyers. Assuming of course cx sticks around. That’s the difference between relying on Jvs vs alliance. Now of course, the counterpoint is why would sea area ff want to join aa when as provides all of that already? I have no answer to that one.


From a FF perspective, you're correct that there's no major difference, especially since American systemwide upgrades can only be used on AA metal (and not on joint business partners).

From a company perspective, there's a huge difference. JVs would have significantly more money flow to American's bottom line than a simple codeshare (or conversely, potential risk to the bottom line if the route is not profitable).
 
tphuang
Posts: 6613
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:11 pm

deltairlines wrote:
tphuang wrote:
deltairlines wrote:

Thanks. I knew the CX codeshare was simply a codeshare and not JBA, but wasn't sure about BA into India (I'm far more experienced in dealing with the DL/AF/KL JV into India). With the AA move to T5 at Heathrow, that only makes more sense to send BLR travelers over Heathrow than Seattle from the East Coast.


Keep in mind that you can earn qualifying miles on cx flights as aa ff. There is not much difference between flying cx and jl if you are an aa ff. A big difference vs dl and ua that is constantly underestimated here on a.net. During non covid times, cx actually provides the best coverage into Southeast Asia from major us cities. Which would make aa actually the preferred carrier to Southeast Asia without ever seeing aa metal.

So from that perspective, adding blr and pvg would give ow flyers better coverage into Asia than dl flyers. Assuming of course cx sticks around. That’s the difference between relying on Jvs vs alliance. Now of course, the counterpoint is why would sea area ff want to join aa when as provides all of that already? I have no answer to that one.


From a FF perspective, you're correct that there's no major difference, especially since American systemwide upgrades can only be used on AA metal (and not on joint business partners).

From a company perspective, there's a huge difference. JVs would have significantly more money flow to American's bottom line than a simple codeshare (or conversely, potential risk to the bottom line if the route is not profitable).


They could also lose money on jv flights.

Cx presence in one world is a huge benefit for aa in capturing customers that do a lot of Tpac flying. In Seattle area, it will help as big time in keeping ff from moving to delta. For the couple of flights aa end up flying there, it’s important for them that the size of ow presence in Seattle to Asia continues to dwarf whatever delta has going on. That allows large corporate clients to pick oneworld over delta.

With delta continued policy toward jv over alliance, I don’t see why people that travel to Asia from Seattle would pick delta over ow ff status. If the original question is why would aa be better off on these routes than delta? The answer is they have a larger ff pool to work with.
 
airlinepeanuts
Posts: 169
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:44 pm

I think the only way the AA SEA TPAC Gateway works is feed from AS.
 
User avatar
American 767
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:00 pm

airlinepeanuts wrote:
I think the only way the AA SEA TPAC Gateway works is feed from AS.


Yes, now that AS will be in One World later this year.
But didn't AA already have a SEA-NRT route 25 years ago or so, back in the days when they were flying the MD-11? IIRC, it was a route flown previously by CO.
Ben Soriano
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:59 pm

American 767 wrote:
airlinepeanuts wrote:
I think the only way the AA SEA TPAC Gateway works is feed from AS.


Yes, now that AS will be in One World later this year.
But didn't AA already have a SEA-NRT route 25 years ago or so, back in the days when they were flying the MD-11? IIRC, it was a route flown previously by CO.


AS joins One World on March 31.

AA did fly SEA-NRT. The flight flew MIA-SEA-NRT with a change of equipment in SEA. It was discontinued shortly after 9/11.

AA had a deal that if Boeing or Microsoft employees were booked in Business Class, they would upgrade them to First Class if space was available. Officially this was only for the SEA-NRT flight, but unofficially AA sometimes upgraded Boeing employees on SJC-NRT or US-Europe flights too.
 
onwFan
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:17 pm

Looks like AA is about to launch JFK-TLV:-

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/ameri ... 656256/amp

The flights are set to begin on May 6, and will take place daily throughout the year between Ben-Gurion Airport and JFK in New York. Tickets will be available for purchase starting January 25.
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:43 pm

onwFan wrote:
Looks like AA is about to launch JFK-TLV:-

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/ameri ... 656256/amp

The flights are set to begin on May 6, and will take place daily throughout the year between Ben-Gurion Airport and JFK in New York. Tickets will be available for purchase starting January 25.


777-200ER operating: https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-amer ... 1001358014
Leaving the forums. You may know where to find me.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4626
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:51 pm

Ishrion wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Looks like AA is about to launch JFK-TLV:-

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/ameri ... 656256/amp

The flights are set to begin on May 6, and will take place daily throughout the year between Ben-Gurion Airport and JFK in New York. Tickets will be available for purchase starting January 25.


777-200ER operating: https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-amer ... 1001358014


Surprised they're not using the 77W, given the high demand on the route for both pax and cargo (pax, when things normalize) but maybe that's why it is a 772 for now. That is the only other aircraft AA can use on this route from JFK as there is no 787 crew base at JFK and ferrying one in from another hub just does not make sense.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:50 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Looks like AA is about to launch JFK-TLV:-

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/ameri ... 656256/amp

The flights are set to begin on May 6, and will take place daily throughout the year between Ben-Gurion Airport and JFK in New York. Tickets will be available for purchase starting January 25.


777-200ER operating: https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-amer ... 1001358014


Surprised they're not using the 77W, given the high demand on the route for both pax and cargo (pax, when things normalize) but maybe that's why it is a 772 for now. That is the only other aircraft AA can use on this route from JFK as there is no 787 crew base at JFK and ferrying one in from another hub just does not make sense.


For coach (Main Cabin + Main Cabin Extra), the 77W offers a marginal amount more seats (4). Premium Economy is also a small (4) number of additional seats. The 77W has the significantly larger premium cabin with 23 more premium cabin seats, including the 8 seats in F.

TLV doesn't scream needing a 60 seat front cabin (including the need for a true F cabin), especially when things return to normal...cargo right now could make sense, but there might be other (better) opportunities to use that plane right now.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:53 pm

deltairlines wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:


Surprised they're not using the 77W, given the high demand on the route for both pax and cargo (pax, when things normalize) but maybe that's why it is a 772 for now. That is the only other aircraft AA can use on this route from JFK as there is no 787 crew base at JFK and ferrying one in from another hub just does not make sense.


For coach (Main Cabin + Main Cabin Extra), the 77W offers a marginal amount more seats (4). Premium Economy is also a small (4) number of additional seats. The 77W has the significantly larger premium cabin with 23 more premium cabin seats, including the 8 seats in F.

TLV doesn't scream needing a 60 seat front cabin (including the need for a true F cabin), especially when things return to normal...cargo right now could make sense, but there might be other (better) opportunities to use that plane right now.


UA ran (runs?) 2 77Ws a day on EWR-TLV.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4626
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:54 pm

deltairlines wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:


Surprised they're not using the 77W, given the high demand on the route for both pax and cargo (pax, when things normalize) but maybe that's why it is a 772 for now. That is the only other aircraft AA can use on this route from JFK as there is no 787 crew base at JFK and ferrying one in from another hub just does not make sense.


For coach (Main Cabin + Main Cabin Extra), the 77W offers a marginal amount more seats (4). Premium Economy is also a small (4) number of additional seats. The 77W has the significantly larger premium cabin with 23 more premium cabin seats, including the 8 seats in F.

TLV doesn't scream needing a 60 seat front cabin (including the need for a true F cabin), especially when things return to normal...cargo right now could make sense, but there might be other (better) opportunities to use that plane right now.


There are 20 77Ws vs. 47 772s, and I think TLV requires 2 frames with the stage lengths, though at JFK, AA would be able to rotate in one from LHR/GRU. It all depends (on the premium seat count) what happens with EL AL. NYC-TLV is a huge market with a significant amount of demand and some carriers fly their highest capacity jets in the market for a reason. I do think the 772 to start makes a lot of sense, it is a good frame to launch the route and if the demand increases and the yield is there, they can always go to the 77W.
Last edited by ContinentalEWR on Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26645
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:03 pm

deltairlines wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:


Surprised they're not using the 77W, given the high demand on the route for both pax and cargo (pax, when things normalize) but maybe that's why it is a 772 for now. That is the only other aircraft AA can use on this route from JFK as there is no 787 crew base at JFK and ferrying one in from another hub just does not make sense.


For coach (Main Cabin + Main Cabin Extra), the 77W offers a marginal amount more seats (4). Premium Economy is also a small (4) number of additional seats. The 77W has the significantly larger premium cabin with 23 more premium cabin seats, including the 8 seats in F.

TLV doesn't scream needing a 60 seat front cabin (including the need for a true F cabin), especially when things return to normal...cargo right now could make sense, but there might be other (better) opportunities to use that plane right now.


NYCTLV is the third largest long haul local market from the United States and right now it might be the largest. Israel demand remains robust in the grand scheme of things and Tel Aviv was quick to get flights resumed to MIA, LAX, SFO, etc.
a.
 
ABEguy
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:28 pm

formeraa wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
There’s a lot of delusional here with all this speculation about the country’s weakest airline financially, operating in the worst international environment we’ve ever seen, out of an entirely new “hub” suddenly starting all of these incredibly expensive international flights against already entrenched carriers and somehow running off the competition and making it so others “don’t stand a chance.” AA’s widebody fleet is significantly smaller than it used to be. There’s no way we’re going to see AA duplicating what it had/has at DFW and LAX from SEA. SEA is a smaller market and already has strong competition to all of the largest markets, not a good place for a struggling, high-cost carrier to be. I see BLR and LHR and maybe one or two more routes to OW strongholds (perhaps a resumption of Tokyo) but I don’t foresee AA suddenly operating a UA/SFO-style hub at SEA. If they do, it will be a brutal, loss-leading operation for years to come.

Jeremy


AGREED! AA is starting a limited number of international flights based on AS's existing SEA hub. AA will be using EXISTING AS/AA flights to feed the international flights. We will not see some huge "build up" of AA flights at SEA. FWIW, SEA doesn't have the room for that longer-term anyway.

Plus, has anyone looked at the timing of the transpac return flights arriving at SEA between 3 and 4pm. Most of the connecting passengers will be in the Western US (AS destinations). Certainly there won't be any East Coast connections at that time of day, unless passengers wait 7 or 8 hours for redeye connections.


That’s what DFW is for.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7237
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:50 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Surprised they're not using the 77W, given the high demand on the route for both pax and cargo (pax, when things normalize) but maybe that's why it is a 772 for now. That is the only other aircraft AA can use on this route from JFK as there is no 787 crew base at JFK and ferrying one in from another hub just does not make sense.


For coach (Main Cabin + Main Cabin Extra), the 77W offers a marginal amount more seats (4). Premium Economy is also a small (4) number of additional seats. The 77W has the significantly larger premium cabin with 23 more premium cabin seats, including the 8 seats in F.

TLV doesn't scream needing a 60 seat front cabin (including the need for a true F cabin), especially when things return to normal...cargo right now could make sense, but there might be other (better) opportunities to use that plane right now.


NYCTLV is the third largest long haul local market from the United States and right now it might be the largest. Israel demand remains robust in the grand scheme of things and Tel Aviv was quick to get flights resumed to MIA, LAX, SFO, etc.


Not disagreeing with the demand part, but more of the true premium demand component. United's 77W has 66 more seats in coach than the 777s that are in the longhaul configuration, which is a huge difference compared to the 4 that AA has. It just comes down to American having a very different configuration on their 77W than United - the first class cabin on the 77W takes up a lot of real estate. For United, throwing 66 extra coach seats into TLV per flight makes sense when you can easily fill them. A marginal extra four seats in coach on an American 77W might not necessitate using that frame in that market.
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:06 pm

Seasonal JFK-ATH begins June 2 and runs through October 30. 1x daily 777-200ER

JFK – ATH 4:20 p.m. — 8:50 a.m. +1 day

ATH – JFK 11 a.m. – 3:05 p.m.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... k-ath-tlv/
Leaving the forums. You may know where to find me.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26645
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:38 pm

deltairlines wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:

For coach (Main Cabin + Main Cabin Extra), the 77W offers a marginal amount more seats (4). Premium Economy is also a small (4) number of additional seats. The 77W has the significantly larger premium cabin with 23 more premium cabin seats, including the 8 seats in F.

TLV doesn't scream needing a 60 seat front cabin (including the need for a true F cabin), especially when things return to normal...cargo right now could make sense, but there might be other (better) opportunities to use that plane right now.


NYCTLV is the third largest long haul local market from the United States and right now it might be the largest. Israel demand remains robust in the grand scheme of things and Tel Aviv was quick to get flights resumed to MIA, LAX, SFO, etc.


Not disagreeing with the demand part, but more of the true premium demand component. United's 77W has 66 more seats in coach than the 777s that are in the longhaul configuration, which is a huge difference compared to the 4 that AA has. It just comes down to American having a very different configuration on their 77W than United - the first class cabin on the 77W takes up a lot of real estate. For United, throwing 66 extra coach seats into TLV per flight makes sense when you can easily fill them. A marginal extra four seats in coach on an American 77W might not necessitate using that frame in that market.


Ah yes, understood and agreed. The 772 makes more sense.
a.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4626
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:32 pm

deltairlines wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:

For coach (Main Cabin + Main Cabin Extra), the 77W offers a marginal amount more seats (4). Premium Economy is also a small (4) number of additional seats. The 77W has the significantly larger premium cabin with 23 more premium cabin seats, including the 8 seats in F.

TLV doesn't scream needing a 60 seat front cabin (including the need for a true F cabin), especially when things return to normal...cargo right now could make sense, but there might be other (better) opportunities to use that plane right now.


NYCTLV is the third largest long haul local market from the United States and right now it might be the largest. Israel demand remains robust in the grand scheme of things and Tel Aviv was quick to get flights resumed to MIA, LAX, SFO, etc.


Not disagreeing with the demand part, but more of the true premium demand component. United's 77W has 66 more seats in coach than the 777s that are in the longhaul configuration, which is a huge difference compared to the 4 that AA has. It just comes down to American having a very different configuration on their 77W than United - the first class cabin on the 77W takes up a lot of real estate. For United, throwing 66 extra coach seats into TLV per flight makes sense when you can easily fill them. A marginal extra four seats in coach on an American 77W might not necessitate using that frame in that market.


The AA 77W has essentially been used to service LHR, NRT/HND, HKG, GRU, one EZE rotation from MIA all pre-pandemic and not every flight pre-pandemic. It also was used on LAX-SYD for a time before it transitioned to a 789 and right now, is back to the 77W for cargo purposes. AA's First Class product, which exists only on the 77W and the 321T, is supposedly there to meet the demand that existed for it by a subset of its corporate clients, specifically in the entertainment and news media industries. On the 77W, it's about as basic as FC can get, spartan, and charmless, and is often used for Concierge Key and Platinum Executive upgrades. I actually find the business class seat and product on the AA 777 (except for those awful rocking seats on some 772s) to be better than the 77W First Class seat. The AA 77W has a large business class cabin and number of seats, so by AA's accounting and logic, it uses that plane where it feels the premium demand is the highest and heaviest or where there is a high demand for both cargo and pax.

NYC to TLV is a very big market and a premium rich one. Until recently, EL AL's product on the 747 and 777 were dated and not competitive. The 787 has changed that, but the capacity is reduced. UA is not operating the 77W from EWR to TLV right now. Since COVID, it has been the 787-10. The fact that DL is adding a second daily flight tells you a lot about the market. This is a new route for AA, and traditionally, AA is conservative with long haul international routes and notably from a market where it has difficulty (e.g. JFK) so it stands to reason the 772 is being used, and if the demand warrants it, I can see it going to the 77W. All of that to say the configuration of AA vs. UA's 77W isn't at issue here. This is a new market for AA, whereas UA/CO has made EWR-TLV one of its most profitable TATL routes and Delta has had a longer time in the market and owns a lot more market share in NYC than AA does. AA will also need to build out POS from TLV/Israel as well, something DL and UA already have.
 
AAtakeMeAway
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:59 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:20 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
American 767 wrote:
airlinepeanuts wrote:
I think the only way the AA SEA TPAC Gateway works is feed from AS.


Yes, now that AS will be in One World later this year.
But didn't AA already have a SEA-NRT route 25 years ago or so, back in the days when they were flying the MD-11? IIRC, it was a route flown previously by CO.


AA did fly SEA-NRT. The flight flew MIA-SEA-NRT with a change of equipment in SEA. It was discontinued shortly after 9/11.

What was the equipment's routing? Something like LAX-NRT-SEA-NRT-LAX?
 
dcajet
Posts: 5031
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:50 pm

onwFan wrote:
Looks like AA is about to launch JFK-TLV:-

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/ameri ... 656256/amp

The flights are set to begin on May 6, and will take place daily throughout the year between Ben-Gurion Airport and JFK in New York. Tickets will be available for purchase starting January 25.


Is is loaded already?
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2627
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:15 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
American 767 wrote:

Yes, now that AS will be in One World later this year.
But didn't AA already have a SEA-NRT route 25 years ago or so, back in the days when they were flying the MD-11? IIRC, it was a route flown previously by CO.


AA did fly SEA-NRT. The flight flew MIA-SEA-NRT with a change of equipment in SEA. It was discontinued shortly after 9/11.

What was the equipment's routing? Something like LAX-NRT-SEA-NRT-LAX?

AA wasn’t flying LAX-NRT at the time, so it was rotated through DFW/ORD/SJC.

AA’s Asian network pre-9/11 was DFW-NRT/KIX, ORD-NRT, SJC-NRT/TPE, SEA-NRT.

DFW-KIX was cut the same time as SEA-NRT. SJC-TPE was immediately cut. SJC-NRT lasted until 2006 IIRC. They also ran NGO at one point...I can’t recall but I think it was from ORD.

They also applied at one point for HNL-NRT.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 763ER, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
onwFan
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:25 pm

dcajet wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Looks like AA is about to launch JFK-TLV:-

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/ameri ... 656256/amp

The flights are set to begin on May 6, and will take place daily throughout the year between Ben-Gurion Airport and JFK in New York. Tickets will be available for purchase starting January 25.


Is is loaded already?

No, probably this weekend..
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