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MAH4546
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:29 am

nomorerjs wrote:
MIA and DFW are open, makes sense that they are growing. CLT is fairly open and has more domestic connections than MIA.

LAX, NYC, ORD, and PHL are closed. Seems logical they get pushed back or little adds.


While this is all subject to a lot of changes, MIA will be 16% over summer 2019 capacity this summer as AA is dramatically increasing short/medium-haul international flying. BOG, MDE, LIM and CLO are all doubling capacity, for example. Santiago (DR) is quadrupling.
a.
 
rjbesikof
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:53 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
From what i've heard, TLV is a big market for cargo. Lots and lots of pharma coming out of Israel these days. And lots of inbound cargo as well. As I said elsewhere, I am pretty confident in saying this will be a money maker.

At 6600 miles, this has to be one of AA's longer flights. I assume this will require two aircraft.


With the addition of DFW-AKL/TLV and SEA-BLR, what are the 10 longest AA flights? Do you think this new MIA-TLV flight would even make the cut for the longest AA flights?
 
travaz
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:54 am

I read a good summary (sorry cant find the link) that basically all of the airlines are shifting away from business routes and adding frequencies to "Sun Destinations". I flew out of Phoenix last week and everything inbound was packed. Florida was mentioned as a major destination.
 
AAplat4life
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:57 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
My bet is that AA is going to print money on MIA-TLV. Cant understand why they didnt do this much, much, much earlier.


AA is the least profitable of the major USA airlines, before and after the COVID pandemic. TLV may be a good deployment of assets for now, but it’s not enough to address AA’s lagging financial performance.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:00 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
Is all this expansion this due to the JetBlue partnership?


Might be the opposite - the additional frequencies on MIA-PAP/SDQ/STI might actually be in response to B6 entering MIA. All 3 are served by B6 from FLL.

Also FLL-PAP returning after a few years off the route completely is probably directly related to B6. AA is the go-to airline for many Haitian-Americans in south Florida and it was a mistake for AA to pull of that route and force all their local customers to use MIA. Many will, but some prefer FLL so the 1x day makes sense and strikes back at whatever passengers B6 has poached the last few years to/from Haiti.

They have a partnership in the Northeast but must continue to compete elsewhere otherwise Delta's flimsy claims of collusion, etc might get put higher on the DOJ radar. I expect AA & B6 to vigorously compete in south Florida.


AA/B6 tag-teaming South Florida-Caribbean will make it tougher for DL to enter that segment market, and AA is going to be okay with that. The "vigorous competition" exists to pass the DOJ sniff test.

All things considered, this growth spurt AA is experiencing is similar to what we saw with DL post-merger in the late 2000's.
 
travaz
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:00 am

AAplat4life wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
My bet is that AA is going to print money on MIA-TLV. Cant understand why they didnt do this much, much, much earlier.


AA is the least profitable of the major USA airlines, before and after the COVID pandemic. TLV may be a good deployment of assets for now, but it’s not enough to address AA’s lagging financial performance.


So what is the answer for AA?
 
luckyone
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:06 am

Well, this forum has been discussing an AA MIA-TLV route since I started reading this forum sometime around 2001.
BoeingGuy wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Ahhh. I thought it seemed odd that AA was starting Charlotte-Kalamazoo. :)

Two other routes that I think AA should try from MIA with the E75 are Dominica (DOM) and San Andres Island, Colombia (ADZ).

AA served DOM from SJU in the past with an ATR.

I’m not sure an E75 can serve DOM due to the mountainous terrain and short runway.


Didn’t FedEx send 727s in there? But yes, I’m aware it’s a very challenging airport.

I flew on as a passenger on LIAT about 10 years ago. It was an interesting approach.

SJU-DOM had a wifey variable schedule solely based on the medical students vacation schedule, and the fares were extortionate. The route went away with the closure of the Executive Airlines operation in SJU. The airport has handled fully loaded 737 charters, and approaches can be done from over the ocean in lieu of flying through the jungle. I’ve done it both ways. If the demand were there, an Ejet would be able to do the route—the runway is longer than LCY for example, and the problems of mountains vs skyscrapers aren’t much different from a terrain avoidance perspective. The demand is not there. The whole island has a population of about 70,000, and the economy was hit very hard by Hurricane Maria. The tourist infrastructure is limited by a strongly preservationist government, though as a result it is very popular with “ecotourists,” but this is not a large industry. Most of the local travel is naturally to nearby CARICOM nations, with most of the traffic going to Antigua and Barbados.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:15 am

rjbesikof wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
From what i've heard, TLV is a big market for cargo. Lots and lots of pharma coming out of Israel these days. And lots of inbound cargo as well. As I said elsewhere, I am pretty confident in saying this will be a money maker.

At 6600 miles, this has to be one of AA's longer flights. I assume this will require two aircraft.


With the addition of DFW-AKL/TLV and SEA-BLR, what are the 10 longest AA flights? Do you think this new MIA-TLV flight would even make the cut for the longest AA flights?


Here is the reported top ten list from December 2019....

Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) – Hong Kong (HKG): 8,111 miles
Los Angeles (LAX) – Sydney, Australia (SYD) 7,487 miles
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) – Shanghai (PVG): 7,351 miles
Hong Kong (HKG) – Los Angeles (LAX): 7,260 miles
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) – Beijing (PEK): 6,971 miles
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) – Seoul (ICN): 6,826 miles
Los Angeles (LAX) – Auckland (AKL): 6,504 miles
Los Angeles (LAX) – Shanghai (PVG): 6,485 miles
Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) – Tokyo (NRT): 6,427 miles
Los Angeles (LAX) – Beijing (PEK): 6,251 miles

Source: TPG...
 
LH658
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:34 am

EL Al use to serve MIA, glad to see MIA expanding, AA finally got that MIA - TLV flight ;).
 
MAH4546
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:20 am

LH658 wrote:
EL Al use to serve MIA, glad to see MIA expanding, AA finally got that MIA - TLV flight ;).


El Al still flies MIATLV and it’s currently operating once a week. Up to twice weekly at the end of the month, 3x in April and 5x a week in May.
a.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:52 am

usflyer msp wrote:
Do TLV flights still have to leave from special gates with extra security? I haven't taken one in a long time.

It's common for them to. When ATL-TLV was still around, for example: went through regular terminal security, and then went through additional security/x-ray at the gate prior to boarding.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:52 am

Just reread the title of AA’s press release, “American Airlines Becomes the Only US Carrier with Nonstop Service from Miami to Tel Aviv”...

I don’t think any other US carrier is interested in MIA-TLV. It’s a rather odd title, but I guess it is what it is.
Leaving the forums. You may know where to find me.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:36 am

Ishrion wrote:
Just reread the title of AA’s press release, “American Airlines Becomes the Only US Carrier with Nonstop Service from Miami to Tel Aviv”...

I don’t think any other US carrier is interested in MIA-TLV. It’s a rather odd title, but I guess it is what it is.

Marketing 101: take advantage of the average consumer's ignorance, to make it seem like you're doing something more/different/more special, than what you actually are.

DL for example, loves to market with the likes of:
"....the only US airline to serve [longhaul destination] from New York," in situations where UA serves the same place, from EWR.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
BBDFlyer
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:08 am

ahj2000 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Obviously a terrible source but Wikipedia says the CLT-AZS route is an American Eagle route which would most likely mean it's a E175 which would be the longest AA E175 flight from CLT IIRC

But still 200 mi shorter than MIA-MSP.
Are there 175s equipped for service over water?


Yes, Republic has some aircraft certified for Extended Over Water operations up to 162NM offshore. These will be replaced with Envoy E175s in Miami that will also be EOW certified, and Republic will move their aircraft to the NE. Republic will continue operating E175s out of CLT.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:17 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
Is all this expansion this due to the JetBlue partnership?


Might be the opposite - the additional frequencies on MIA-PAP/SDQ/STI might actually be in response to B6 entering MIA. All 3 are served by B6 from FLL.

Also FLL-PAP returning after a few years off the route completely is probably directly related to B6. AA is the go-to airline for many Haitian-Americans in south Florida and it was a mistake for AA to pull of that route and force all their local customers to use MIA. Many will, but some prefer FLL so the 1x day makes sense and strikes back at whatever passengers B6 has poached the last few years to/from Haiti.

They have a partnership in the Northeast but must continue to compete elsewhere otherwise Delta's flimsy claims of collusion, etc might get put higher on the DOJ radar. I expect AA & B6 to vigorously compete in south Florida.

Does B6 still fly STI from FLL? I thought it was dropped.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:27 pm

N292UX wrote:
TLV from MIA? That's a shocker for sure. Really surprised they didn't try DFW-TLV first but maybe there's some logic behind it. PBM is not too much of a surprise and I think that route should do well. LIT/PWM were definitely some holes on the domestic side of MIA so I imagine those should work out fine.

I think CLT-AZS will do well, but I'm definitely surprised they didn't try from MIA first. I could see MIA maybe being added in down the road. CLT-RNO should do well on a seasonal basis.


MIA is a much larger O&D gateway to TLV and Israel than DFW, which would rely on connections to fill the plane a lot more than a MIA originating flight. The DFW route will start later this year.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:29 pm

luckyone wrote:
Well, this forum has been discussing an AA MIA-TLV route since I started reading this forum sometime around 2001.
BoeingGuy wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
I’m not sure an E75 can serve DOM due to the mountainous terrain and short runway.


Didn’t FedEx send 727s in there? But yes, I’m aware it’s a very challenging airport.

I flew on as a passenger on LIAT about 10 years ago. It was an interesting approach.

SJU-DOM had a wifey variable schedule solely based on the medical students vacation schedule, and the fares were extortionate. The route went away with the closure of the Executive Airlines operation in SJU. The airport has handled fully loaded 737 charters, and approaches can be done from over the ocean in lieu of flying through the jungle. I’ve done it both ways. If the demand were there, an Ejet would be able to do the route—the runway is longer than LCY for example, and the problems of mountains vs skyscrapers aren’t much different from a terrain avoidance perspective. The demand is not there. The whole island has a population of about 70,000, and the economy was hit very hard by Hurricane Maria. The tourist infrastructure is limited by a strongly preservationist government, though as a result it is very popular with “ecotourists,” but this is not a large industry. Most of the local travel is naturally to nearby CARICOM nations, with most of the traffic going to Antigua and Barbados.

Where was that 737 from? That is, in what country was the operator based? AFAIK, one of the reasons that Executive (American Eagle) never did night flights into DOM was that the FAA would not allow them to do the approach from over the ocean on passenger flights as you could not perform a go around if necessary as you would be ascending into mountains. The approach from the ocean is the only way you could land at DOM at night. Also, I don’t think jets can approach from the other direction due to the terrain so that leaves that approach as the only feasible option and if the FAA doesn’t allow American carriers to do it on passenger flights, then jet service on an American carrier cannot happen.

As for Amerijet, they are obviously not passenger ops but also the 727 has the capability to take off from all sorts of runways that other jets do not. For example, here is a video of one at the old ET Joshua airport in Saint Vincent:

https://youtu.be/6l32Ij74Xss

There was no passenger jet service that could fly into that airport.

Lastly, while I do agree that the demand to DOM likely isn’t there now for a MIA flight. Keep in mind that even when that demand did exist (when Ross university was still open), AA never attempted a flight from MIA. There must be some reason for that.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:33 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
That's amazing. Gotta love how MIA/JFK-TLV are now set to launch before DFW-TLV.

In the stream, Vasu Raja said Portland, Maine. Not new, so not sure what's up with that.



AA must love Israel because they can fly a ton of widebodies there in these challenging times. TWA flew there for decades from JFK, sadly AA didn't continue those flights 20 years ago. JFK, MIA & DFW plus make quite a presence in TLV. Miami to TLV should have happened years ago.


AA had to settle litigation with TWA operations in TLV, which is why they never restarted the JFK-TLV route authority they inherited when AA acquired TWA. I don't know all the specifics, but from what I recall TWA had over 100 employees based in Israel, many of them with tenure, and like a lot of TWA's overseas stations for a long time, were overstaffed with in house employees, many locally hired and subject to local employment laws, and others as expats, and very little to no outsourcing. The TLV TWA employees threatened to sue. I'd agree MIA-TLV is a no brainer and ought to have been added years ago. AA had the planes to do it in the reconfigured 772. AA is traditionally pretty conservative with long haul international routes and far less aggressive than UA or enterprising as DL when it comes to launching such routes. Whatever litigation existed between TWA's former Israel employees and AA appears to have been resolved. The litigation issue was a factor, though not the only one, in AA dropping PHL-TLV post US merger.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:39 pm

travaz wrote:
I read a good summary (sorry cant find the link) that basically all of the airlines are shifting away from business routes and adding frequencies to "Sun Destinations". I flew out of Phoenix last week and everything inbound was packed. Florida was mentioned as a major destination.


Nothing surprising here. Business travel is essentially dead and will remain very soft for some time, with predictions for a rebound unlikely until 2022 or later. Leisure destinations are seeing substantial increases in service (Florida, Arizona, Mexico, Alaska, The Rockies, Beach Markets (East Coast, like the Outer Banks...) on the anticipation that people will book leisure travel into Spring and Summer and seek socially distanced venues for vacations (national parks, etc..).

MIA-TLV is as much about cargo as it is about strong O&D demand on both ends of the route. Israel has a booming pharmaceuticals, biotechnology, and tech industry and lots of pallets go back and forth. This is also what spurred UA to add more US-Israel service before and during the pandemic.
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:03 pm

From anna.aero: https://www.anna.aero/2021/02/09/americ ... -tel-aviv/

"On a P2P and airport-level basis, Miami is Tel Aviv’s fifth-largest US market, with almost 160,000 round-trip passengers in 2019. American will also use its Miami hub to actively target the nearly 500,000 demand from Tel Aviv to Latin America. Tel Aviv-Miami has a four-times larger local market than Tel Aviv-Dallas, which will be even more focused on connections."
Leaving the forums. You may know where to find me.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:11 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
That's amazing. Gotta love how MIA/JFK-TLV are now set to launch before DFW-TLV.

In the stream, Vasu Raja said Portland, Maine. Not new, so not sure what's up with that.



AA must love Israel because they can fly a ton of widebodies there in these challenging times. TWA flew there for decades from JFK, sadly AA didn't continue those flights 20 years ago. JFK, MIA & DFW plus make quite a presence in TLV. Miami to TLV should have happened years ago.


AA had to settle litigation with TWA operations in TLV, which is why they never restarted the JFK-TLV route authority they inherited when AA acquired TWA. I don't know all the specifics, but from what I recall TWA had over 100 employees based in Israel, many of them with tenure, and like a lot of TWA's overseas stations for a long time, were overstaffed with in house employees, many locally hired and subject to local employment laws, and others as expats, and very little to no outsourcing. The TLV TWA employees threatened to sue. I'd agree MIA-TLV is a no brainer and ought to have been added years ago. AA had the planes to do it in the reconfigured 772. AA is traditionally pretty conservative with long haul international routes and far less aggressive than UA or enterprising as DL when it comes to launching such routes. Whatever litigation existed between TWA's former Israel employees and AA appears to have been resolved. The litigation issue was a factor, though not the only one, in AA dropping PHL-TLV post US merger.

AA never had to settle with the TW employees. PHLTLV wasn’t stopped due to that. That’s a fallacy.

And those TW employees did sue and it was settled in 2010 a few years before the AA/US merger.

“ These legal proceedings went on for over nine years and only four years ago a settlement was signed, though only 14% of the total funds entitled to the employees has been implemented, which today are estimated at 60 millions shekels. Now a representation of the former Israeli TWA employees is being formed for another battle against the New American Airlines: "The ongoing discrimination and alienation toward Israeli employees will certainly and justifiably bring about a negative public campaign against American Airlines in Israel, due to its actions and especially due to its failures throughout the years", explains Meir Knobel, a former manager of the TWA station in Israel.”
 
N292UX
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:28 pm

Somehow completely missed the fact the AA is also launching DFW/JFK-TLV. MIA-TLV seems way more logical after seeing that. I would've been surprised if MIA had been the first/only announced route to TLV.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:29 pm

N292UX wrote:
Somehow completely missed the fact the AA is also launching DFW/JFK-TLV. MIA-TLV seems way more logical after seeing that. I would've been surprised if MIA had been the first/only announced route to TLV.

DFW-TLV is getting a subsidy.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:31 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:


AA must love Israel because they can fly a ton of widebodies there in these challenging times. TWA flew there for decades from JFK, sadly AA didn't continue those flights 20 years ago. JFK, MIA & DFW plus make quite a presence in TLV. Miami to TLV should have happened years ago.


AA had to settle litigation with TWA operations in TLV, which is why they never restarted the JFK-TLV route authority they inherited when AA acquired TWA. I don't know all the specifics, but from what I recall TWA had over 100 employees based in Israel, many of them with tenure, and like a lot of TWA's overseas stations for a long time, were overstaffed with in house employees, many locally hired and subject to local employment laws, and others as expats, and very little to no outsourcing. The TLV TWA employees threatened to sue. I'd agree MIA-TLV is a no brainer and ought to have been added years ago. AA had the planes to do it in the reconfigured 772. AA is traditionally pretty conservative with long haul international routes and far less aggressive than UA or enterprising as DL when it comes to launching such routes. Whatever litigation existed between TWA's former Israel employees and AA appears to have been resolved. The litigation issue was a factor, though not the only one, in AA dropping PHL-TLV post US merger.

AA never had to settle with the TW employees. PHLTLV wasn’t stopped due to that. That’s a fallacy.

And those TW employees did sue and it was settled in 2010 a few years before the AA/US merger.

“ These legal proceedings went on for over nine years and only four years ago a settlement was signed, though only 14% of the total funds entitled to the employees has been implemented, which today are estimated at 60 millions shekels. Now a representation of the former Israeli TWA employees is being formed for another battle against the New American Airlines: "The ongoing discrimination and alienation toward Israeli employees will certainly and justifiably bring about a negative public campaign against American Airlines in Israel, due to its actions and especially due to its failures throughout the years", explains Meir Knobel, a former manager of the TWA station in Israel.”


Your response is heavy with contradictions and would imply a settlement did occur (you even state it) so not quite sure what your point is.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:53 pm

My point is this issue is moot. AA refused to settle it was leftover from the TWA bankruptcy and it was settled by the TWA LLC that was still on paper.

The post I referred to said AA pulled out of TLV because of the lawsuit. Which is false. The lawsuit was settled in 2010. AA and US merged in 2012 two years after the settlement. So the lawsuit was settled and had zero to do with AA ending PHL-TLV.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:01 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
My point is this issue is moot. AA refused to settle it was leftover from the TWA bankruptcy and it was settled by the TWA LLC that was still on paper.

The post I referred to said AA pulled out of TLV because of the lawsuit. Which is false. The lawsuit was settled in 2010. AA and US merged in 2012 two years after the settlement. So the lawsuit was settled and had zero to do with AA ending PHL-TLV.


The lawsuit had a lot, if not everything, to do with AA not launching service on its own metal to TLV post the TWA acquisition which closed in 2001 and plenty has been written about that. AA and US merged in 2013 not 2012. AA axed PHL to TLV in 2016 (and announced it would in 2015) claiming it was a $20 million dollar a year loss.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:07 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
My point is this issue is moot. AA refused to settle it was leftover from the TWA bankruptcy and it was settled by the TWA LLC that was still on paper.

The post I referred to said AA pulled out of TLV because of the lawsuit. Which is false. The lawsuit was settled in 2010. AA and US merged in 2012 two years after the settlement. So the lawsuit was settled and had zero to do with AA ending PHL-TLV.


The lawsuit had a lot, if not everything, to do with AA not launching service on its own metal to TLV post the TWA acquisition which closed in 2001 and plenty has been written about that. AA and US merged in 2013 not 2012. AA axed PHL to TLV in 2016 (and announced it would in 2015) claiming it was a $20 million dollar a year loss.

Like I said the pullout had zero to do with the lawsuit. Read the post I replied too

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1457569&p=22641247#p22641025
 
A388
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:17 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Paramaribo is long overdue. Lots of business ties between Suriname and South Florida. Tel Aviv logically should work also and nice to see AA after abandoning TLV following both the TW and US mergers making it work now.


I wonder this will impact Surinam Airways flights to Miami which make a stop in Aruba from Paramaribo. Soon you can chose between a nonstop flight and the 1 stop flight to Miami.

A388
 
Zidane
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:51 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Corpsnerd09 wrote:

Thanks for the answer, that makes sense.

Not to mention that Israel is on track to be the first to herd immunity, with an astounding amount of vaccinations.

Samaná is also really cool-the first American carrier to Samaná. Bizarre leisure routes from the always cheap CLT are an interesting new idea.


Ahhh. I thought it seemed odd that AA was starting Charlotte-Kalamazoo. :)

Two other routes that I think AA should try from MIA with the E75 are Dominica (DOM) and San Andres Island, Colombia (ADZ).

AA served DOM from SJU in the past with an ATR.

I'm not sure if the E175 is capable enough at DOM, but an A319 can most definitely do it. Saturday only is a good start.
 
luckyone
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Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:30 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Well, this forum has been discussing an AA MIA-TLV route since I started reading this forum sometime around 2001.
BoeingGuy wrote:

Didn’t FedEx send 727s in there? But yes, I’m aware it’s a very challenging airport.

I flew on as a passenger on LIAT about 10 years ago. It was an interesting approach.

SJU-DOM had a wifey variable schedule solely based on the medical students vacation schedule, and the fares were extortionate. The route went away with the closure of the Executive Airlines operation in SJU. The airport has handled fully loaded 737 charters, and approaches can be done from over the ocean in lieu of flying through the jungle. I’ve done it both ways. If the demand were there, an Ejet would be able to do the route—the runway is longer than LCY for example, and the problems of mountains vs skyscrapers aren’t much different from a terrain avoidance perspective. The demand is not there. The whole island has a population of about 70,000, and the economy was hit very hard by Hurricane Maria. The tourist infrastructure is limited by a strongly preservationist government, though as a result it is very popular with “ecotourists,” but this is not a large industry. Most of the local travel is naturally to nearby CARICOM nations, with most of the traffic going to Antigua and Barbados.

Where was that 737 from? That is, in what country was the operator based? AFAIK, one of the reasons that Executive (American Eagle) never did night flights into DOM was that the FAA would not allow them to do the approach from over the ocean on passenger flights as you could not perform a go around if necessary as you would be ascending into mountains. The approach from the ocean is the only way you could land at DOM at night. Also, I don’t think jets can approach from the other direction due to the terrain so that leaves that approach as the only feasible option and if the FAA doesn’t allow American carriers to do it on passenger flights, then jet service on an American carrier cannot happen.

As for Amerijet, they are obviously not passenger ops but also the 727 has the capability to take off from all sorts of runways that other jets do not. For example, here is a video of one at the old ET Joshua airport in Saint Vincent:

https://youtu.be/6l32Ij74Xss

There was no passenger jet service that could fly into that airport.

Lastly, while I do agree that the demand to DOM likely isn’t there now for a MIA flight. Keep in mind that even when that demand did exist (when Ross university was still open), AA never attempted a flight from MIA. There must be some reason for that.

I'm not sure where the 737 was registered, though I've tried searching for pictures of it and I can't find it.

I'm not sure if the regulations are different for passenger vs. cargo flights, but I have a couple points I'd like to make regarding nighttime operations and approaches.

1. Nobody was making scheduled night landings at DOM until 2010 because the airport didn't have the capability until then.
2. A nighttime passenger restriction would likely have very little impact on AA's schedule. Many of their Caribbean flights operate on a daytime arrival/departure schedule. If the market were there, a mid-morning departure from Miami would enable them to serve DOM with arrival and departure in the late morning/early afternoon.
3. Jets can certainly approach over the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao5r5zxAG6Y -- and this was prior to the runway extension. If an E-jet can handle the descent into LCY, it should be able to technically handle DOM. Or if A319s can handle Tegucigalpa...
4. I agree there is reason there has never been service -- the market. The bulk of the market from DOM to the States would have been the Ross students. At any one time there was around 1,000 of them. Maybe 2/3 would leave during semester break (there were three), they didn't all leave on the same day, and not all of them would be going back to the States. Some would fly to ANU or SXM and back to the States from there. Some would be Canadians who took a ferry or flight to Guadeloupe, Martinique, or Barbados (obviously not a ferry) and fly Air Canada direct. Many of them would take vacations on nearby islands. So it was an incredibly seasonal and actually rather fragmented market. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that the reason AA never launched even seasonal flights is the returns would not have been worth the cost of getting an additional service approved. It was simply easier to send two or three extra ATRs per day for about two weeks at a time three times per year, and when that operation wound down, well they clearly had access to the financials of the DOM route.
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2552
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:14 pm

x1234 wrote:
What about CAY, French Guiana?


It would be interesting to see. I wonder how much traffic there is between CAY and MIA. AA could have an advantage over the AF connection in PTP if there is sufficient demand.


A388 wrote:
I wonder this will impact Surinam Airways flights to Miami which make a stop in Aruba from Paramaribo. Soon you can chose between a nonstop flight and the 1 stop flight to Miami.


Is the 1-stop a pre-Covid routing? It seems they're nonstop on the PBM-MIA route now.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4292
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:19 pm

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
What about CAY, French Guiana?


It would be interesting to see. I wonder how much traffic there is between CAY and MIA. AA could have an advantage over the AF connection in PTP if there is sufficient demand.


A388 wrote:
I wonder this will impact Surinam Airways flights to Miami which make a stop in Aruba from Paramaribo. Soon you can chose between a nonstop flight and the 1 stop flight to Miami.


Is the 1-stop a pre-Covid routing? It seems they're nonstop on the PBM-MIA route now.


The flight actually goes to MIA via GEO.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:25 pm

Brickell305 wrote:

As for Amerijet, they are obviously not passenger ops but also the 727 has the capability to take off from all sorts of runways that other jets do not. For example, here is a video of one at the old ET Joshua airport in Saint Vincent:

https://youtu.be/6l32Ij74Xss

There was no passenger jet service that could fly into that airport.

Lastly, while I do agree that the demand to DOM likely isn’t there now for a MIA flight. Keep in mind that even when that demand did exist (when Ross university was still open), AA never attempted a flight from MIA. There must be some reason for that.


luckyone wrote:
3. Jets can certainly approach over the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao5r5zxAG6Y -- and this was prior to the runway extension. If an E-jet can handle the descent into LCY, it should be able to technically handle DOM. Or if A319s can handle Tegucigalpa...


First off, those M6 727 pilots had some serious low-hanging bolas to try those approaches and takeoffs. I would have though the former ET Joshua and DOM approaches/takeoffs from/to the mountains would have been more dangerous than say, a runway 28 landing at SXM which only turboprops seem to fly.

I would also argue those M6 727s taking off into the direction of the mountains likely made an immediate stop on one of the nearby islands for refueling/cargo redistribution before heading off to MIA.

Lastly, DOM is exploring building a new mainline-jet capable airport north of the existing Melville Hall/Douglas-Charles airport, much like what St. Vincent did with SVD. This would make it the last of the moderately-sized Lesser Antilles nations to build such an airport. I would think AA would wait for that project to be completed to evaluate air service from CLT/MIA.

Dominica, undaunted by COVID, to build first long-haul airport (Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation)
 
luckyone
Posts: 4012
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:46 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:

As for Amerijet, they are obviously not passenger ops but also the 727 has the capability to take off from all sorts of runways that other jets do not. For example, here is a video of one at the old ET Joshua airport in Saint Vincent:

https://youtu.be/6l32Ij74Xss

There was no passenger jet service that could fly into that airport.

Lastly, while I do agree that the demand to DOM likely isn’t there now for a MIA flight. Keep in mind that even when that demand did exist (when Ross university was still open), AA never attempted a flight from MIA. There must be some reason for that.


luckyone wrote:
3. Jets can certainly approach over the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao5r5zxAG6Y -- and this was prior to the runway extension. If an E-jet can handle the descent into LCY, it should be able to technically handle DOM. Or if A319s can handle Tegucigalpa...


First off, those M6 727 pilots had some serious low-hanging bolas to try those approaches and takeoffs. I would have though the former ET Joshua and DOM approaches/takeoffs from/to the mountains would have been more dangerous than say, a runway 28 landing at SXM which only turboprops seem to fly.

I would also argue those M6 727s taking off into the direction of the mountains likely made an immediate stop on one of the nearby islands for refueling/cargo redistribution before heading off to MIA.

Lastly, DOM is exploring building a new mainline-jet capable airport north of the existing Melville Hall/Douglas-Charles airport, much like what St. Vincent did with SVD. This would make it the last of the moderately-sized Lesser Antilles nations to build such an airport. I would think AA would wait for that project to be completed to evaluate air service from CLT/MIA.

Dominica, undaunted by COVID, to build first long-haul airport (Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation)

While I agree it's not for the faint hearted, having done the approach several times, it's no more dramatic than the Kai Tak 13 approach, which was done by far larger aircraft. Granted the proximity of the landscape is going to limit the wingspan of an aircraft going through there. Again, it's all moot because Dominica is not going to be supporting large scale international operations. A new airport would probably create jobs for the people who live there, but the original problem of where to put it remains, unless they basically just plow over several villages on the north shore of the island (which is technically feasible).
 
UA748i
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:00 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Obviously a terrible source but Wikipedia says the CLT-AZS route is an American Eagle route which would most likely mean it's a E175 which would be the longest AA E175 flight from CLT IIRC

But still 200 mi shorter than MIA-MSP.
Are there 175s equipped for service over water?


Only the YX units. MQ currently does not have ETOPS certifications.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:05 pm

luckyone wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:

As for Amerijet, they are obviously not passenger ops but also the 727 has the capability to take off from all sorts of runways that other jets do not. For example, here is a video of one at the old ET Joshua airport in Saint Vincent:

https://youtu.be/6l32Ij74Xss

There was no passenger jet service that could fly into that airport.

Lastly, while I do agree that the demand to DOM likely isn’t there now for a MIA flight. Keep in mind that even when that demand did exist (when Ross university was still open), AA never attempted a flight from MIA. There must be some reason for that.


luckyone wrote:
3. Jets can certainly approach over the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao5r5zxAG6Y -- and this was prior to the runway extension. If an E-jet can handle the descent into LCY, it should be able to technically handle DOM. Or if A319s can handle Tegucigalpa...


First off, those M6 727 pilots had some serious low-hanging bolas to try those approaches and takeoffs. I would have though the former ET Joshua and DOM approaches/takeoffs from/to the mountains would have been more dangerous than say, a runway 28 landing at SXM which only turboprops seem to fly.

I would also argue those M6 727s taking off into the direction of the mountains likely made an immediate stop on one of the nearby islands for refueling/cargo redistribution before heading off to MIA.

Lastly, DOM is exploring building a new mainline-jet capable airport north of the existing Melville Hall/Douglas-Charles airport, much like what St. Vincent did with SVD. This would make it the last of the moderately-sized Lesser Antilles nations to build such an airport. I would think AA would wait for that project to be completed to evaluate air service from CLT/MIA.

Dominica, undaunted by COVID, to build first long-haul airport (Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation)

While I agree it's not for the faint hearted, having done the approach several times, it's no more dramatic than the Kai Tak 13 approach, which was done by far larger aircraft. Granted the proximity of the landscape is going to limit the wingspan of an aircraft going through there. Again, it's all moot because Dominica is not going to be supporting large scale international operations. A new airport would probably create jobs for the people who live there, but the original problem of where to put it remains, unless they basically just plow over several villages on the north shore of the island (which is technically feasible).

The government has already acquired the land. Once built, DOM will just do what other islands have historically done and pay for air service. The current airport cannot support service to/from the mainland US so they decided to build an airport that can.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:07 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Byrdluvs747 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
What about CAY, French Guiana?


It would be interesting to see. I wonder how much traffic there is between CAY and MIA. AA could have an advantage over the AF connection in PTP if there is sufficient demand.


A388 wrote:
I wonder this will impact Surinam Airways flights to Miami which make a stop in Aruba from Paramaribo. Soon you can chose between a nonstop flight and the 1 stop flight to Miami.


Is the 1-stop a pre-Covid routing? It seems they're nonstop on the PBM-MIA route now.


The flight actually goes to MIA via GEO.
They do both. On some days, it is routed via GEO, on others via AUA. From memory, AUA has more flights.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4012
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:26 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:



First off, those M6 727 pilots had some serious low-hanging bolas to try those approaches and takeoffs. I would have though the former ET Joshua and DOM approaches/takeoffs from/to the mountains would have been more dangerous than say, a runway 28 landing at SXM which only turboprops seem to fly.

I would also argue those M6 727s taking off into the direction of the mountains likely made an immediate stop on one of the nearby islands for refueling/cargo redistribution before heading off to MIA.

Lastly, DOM is exploring building a new mainline-jet capable airport north of the existing Melville Hall/Douglas-Charles airport, much like what St. Vincent did with SVD. This would make it the last of the moderately-sized Lesser Antilles nations to build such an airport. I would think AA would wait for that project to be completed to evaluate air service from CLT/MIA.

Dominica, undaunted by COVID, to build first long-haul airport (Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation)

While I agree it's not for the faint hearted, having done the approach several times, it's no more dramatic than the Kai Tak 13 approach, which was done by far larger aircraft. Granted the proximity of the landscape is going to limit the wingspan of an aircraft going through there. Again, it's all moot because Dominica is not going to be supporting large scale international operations. A new airport would probably create jobs for the people who live there, but the original problem of where to put it remains, unless they basically just plow over several villages on the north shore of the island (which is technically feasible).

The government has already acquired the land. Once built, DOM will just do what other islands have historically done and pay for air service. The current airport cannot support service to/from the mainland US so they decided to build an airport that can.

Do you have more information on where they plan on putting it? All of the sources I can find (admittedly just the first page of "dominica new aiport") only state that the country has acquired 400 acres of land with proceeds from their CBI program. But it says nothing of where they plan to put it. Thanks!

I still have reservations about how much service would actually be able to be developed. It's not like there's a great deal of demand to and from Dominica, and the local topography and infrastructure is not going to support large numbers of tourists. But, I guess we shall see. Maybe 2-3 weekly flights to MIA or FLL will work in the long run, though likely this would erode from any SJU bound traffic.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:49 pm

luckyone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
While I agree it's not for the faint hearted, having done the approach several times, it's no more dramatic than the Kai Tak 13 approach, which was done by far larger aircraft. Granted the proximity of the landscape is going to limit the wingspan of an aircraft going through there. Again, it's all moot because Dominica is not going to be supporting large scale international operations. A new airport would probably create jobs for the people who live there, but the original problem of where to put it remains, unless they basically just plow over several villages on the north shore of the island (which is technically feasible).

The government has already acquired the land. Once built, DOM will just do what other islands have historically done and pay for air service. The current airport cannot support service to/from the mainland US so they decided to build an airport that can.

Do you have more information on where they plan on putting it? All of the sources I can find (admittedly just the first page of "dominica new aiport") only state that the country has acquired 400 acres of land with proceeds from their CBI program. But it says nothing of where they plan to put it. Thanks!

I still have reservations about how much service would actually be able to be developed. It's not like there's a great deal of demand to and from Dominica, and the local topography and infrastructure is not going to support large numbers of tourists. But, I guess we shall see. Maybe 2-3 weekly flights to MIA or FLL will work in the long run, though likely this would erode from any SJU bound traffic.


It's supposed to be in Wesley, just a bit north of DOM.

FLL won't work. For So. Fla, DOM will need to be connected to the MIA hub to have any chance of lasting service. Very little of DOM demand is O&D to SJU so the only way that service outlasts any potential MIA service would be if the MIA numbers are so low that it just makes sense to funnel people to DOM on smaller planes from SJU. As you noted, DOM is tiny with very limited tourism appeal. Ross closing just made matters worse. I don't see the point of investing in a larger airport but when all your neighbors have now done so, I guess you feel the need to do the same.
 
MLIAA
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:51 pm

UA748i wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Obviously a terrible source but Wikipedia says the CLT-AZS route is an American Eagle route which would most likely mean it's a E175 which would be the longest AA E175 flight from CLT IIRC

But still 200 mi shorter than MIA-MSP.
Are there 175s equipped for service over water?


Only the YX units. MQ currently does not have ETOPS certifications.


Well, neither one has ETOPS.

YX has EOW. MQ will have EOW.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
luckyone
Posts: 4012
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:28 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
The government has already acquired the land. Once built, DOM will just do what other islands have historically done and pay for air service. The current airport cannot support service to/from the mainland US so they decided to build an airport that can.

Do you have more information on where they plan on putting it? All of the sources I can find (admittedly just the first page of "dominica new aiport") only state that the country has acquired 400 acres of land with proceeds from their CBI program. But it says nothing of where they plan to put it. Thanks!

I still have reservations about how much service would actually be able to be developed. It's not like there's a great deal of demand to and from Dominica, and the local topography and infrastructure is not going to support large numbers of tourists. But, I guess we shall see. Maybe 2-3 weekly flights to MIA or FLL will work in the long run, though likely this would erode from any SJU bound traffic.


It's supposed to be in Wesley, just a bit north of DOM.

FLL won't work. For So. Fla, DOM will need to be connected to the MIA hub to have any chance of lasting service. Very little of DOM demand is O&D to SJU so the only way that service outlasts any potential MIA service would be if the MIA numbers are so low that it just makes sense to funnel people to DOM on smaller planes from SJU. As you noted, DOM is tiny with very limited tourism appeal. Ross closing just made matters worse. I don't see the point of investing in a larger airport but when all your neighbors have now done so, I guess you feel the need to do the same.

Well Wesley isn't any flatter than the area around DOM, so it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it. I think FLL is just as well-connected to the major markets in the Lower 48 at this point as MIA, and with lower cost (in theory). B6 also has a good reputation in the Caribbean. International transfers over So-Fla are likely to be small in number. Though there is some traffic to and from the UK, that could continue to flow over ANU or BGI to BA and avoid US Immigration.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:36 pm

luckyone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Do you have more information on where they plan on putting it? All of the sources I can find (admittedly just the first page of "dominica new aiport") only state that the country has acquired 400 acres of land with proceeds from their CBI program. But it says nothing of where they plan to put it. Thanks!

I still have reservations about how much service would actually be able to be developed. It's not like there's a great deal of demand to and from Dominica, and the local topography and infrastructure is not going to support large numbers of tourists. But, I guess we shall see. Maybe 2-3 weekly flights to MIA or FLL will work in the long run, though likely this would erode from any SJU bound traffic.


It's supposed to be in Wesley, just a bit north of DOM.

FLL won't work. For So. Fla, DOM will need to be connected to the MIA hub to have any chance of lasting service. Very little of DOM demand is O&D to SJU so the only way that service outlasts any potential MIA service would be if the MIA numbers are so low that it just makes sense to funnel people to DOM on smaller planes from SJU. As you noted, DOM is tiny with very limited tourism appeal. Ross closing just made matters worse. I don't see the point of investing in a larger airport but when all your neighbors have now done so, I guess you feel the need to do the same.

Well Wesley isn't any flatter than the area around DOM, so it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it. I think FLL is just as well-connected to the major markets in the Lower 48 at this point as MIA, and with lower cost (in theory). B6 also has a good reputation in the Caribbean. International transfers over So-Fla are likely to be small in number. Though there is some traffic to and from the UK, that could continue to flow over ANU or BGI to BA and avoid US Immigration.

The runway will not face the same direction as DOM. It will not directly face any mountains. FLL won’t work. The only destination in the Eastern Caribbean that B6 has been able to make work from FLL is SXM, and that’s new so the jury is still out. They struggled to both BGI and POS which are both much larger markets than DOM. They never even attempted other markets larger than DOM such as UVF and ANU. All of these, and more, are served by AA from MIA. FLL-DOM would be dead on arrival.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4012
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:59 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:

It's supposed to be in Wesley, just a bit north of DOM.

FLL won't work. For So. Fla, DOM will need to be connected to the MIA hub to have any chance of lasting service. Very little of DOM demand is O&D to SJU so the only way that service outlasts any potential MIA service would be if the MIA numbers are so low that it just makes sense to funnel people to DOM on smaller planes from SJU. As you noted, DOM is tiny with very limited tourism appeal. Ross closing just made matters worse. I don't see the point of investing in a larger airport but when all your neighbors have now done so, I guess you feel the need to do the same.

Well Wesley isn't any flatter than the area around DOM, so it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it. I think FLL is just as well-connected to the major markets in the Lower 48 at this point as MIA, and with lower cost (in theory). B6 also has a good reputation in the Caribbean. International transfers over So-Fla are likely to be small in number. Though there is some traffic to and from the UK, that could continue to flow over ANU or BGI to BA and avoid US Immigration.

The runway will not face the same direction as DOM. It will not directly face any mountains.

Which is the interesting part. DOM was built where it is because it was the flattest place on the island, and is effectively the bottom of a long valley. Building in any other direction will mean moving a lot of dirt.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:28 pm

luckyone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Well Wesley isn't any flatter than the area around DOM, so it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it. I think FLL is just as well-connected to the major markets in the Lower 48 at this point as MIA, and with lower cost (in theory). B6 also has a good reputation in the Caribbean. International transfers over So-Fla are likely to be small in number. Though there is some traffic to and from the UK, that could continue to flow over ANU or BGI to BA and avoid US Immigration.

The runway will not face the same direction as DOM. It will not directly face any mountains.

Which is the interesting part. DOM was built where it is because it was the flattest place on the island, and is effectively the bottom of a long valley. Building in any other direction will mean moving a lot of dirt.

That’s the plan. To level the terrain and then build on top of it. Best of luck to them with that though as that’s extremely costly for very little return.
 
Zidane
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:44 am

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:37 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
The runway will not face the same direction as DOM. It will not directly face any mountains.

Which is the interesting part. DOM was built where it is because it was the flattest place on the island, and is effectively the bottom of a long valley. Building in any other direction will mean moving a lot of dirt.

That’s the plan. To level the terrain and then build on top of it. Best of luck to them with that though as that’s extremely costly for very little return.

Building from scratch is always more expensive. A cheaper alternative is to extend the runway seawards and build a larger North apron. The approach path can then be cleaned up by flattening some hills.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:47 pm

How will this new service from AA affect LY's existing service? Chances AA ups the frequency to 5-6 times a week year round?

It'll be interesting to see how much traffic AA connects to/from Latin America on these flights. I am going to assume they already see a healthy amount of traffic from other areas connecting to/from Latin America, such as Canada.
 
caribny
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:15 am

Brickell305 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Byrdluvs747 wrote:

It would be interesting to see. I wonder how much traffic there is between CAY and MIA. AA could have an advantage over the AF connection in PTP if there is sufficient demand.




Is the 1-stop a pre-Covid routing? It seems they're nonstop on the PBM-MIA route now.


The flight actually goes to MIA via GEO.
They do both. On some days, it is routed via GEO, on others via AUA. From memory, AUA has more flights.


Pre Covid AUA PBM became a standalone and more capacity was added to the MIA GEO PBM. I assume because PYs loads on the MIA AUA sector werent good. With AA running nonstop services to both, and getting the bulk of the oil business we will see how well PY will do. There isnt a large VFR market on this route for PY. With a strong feed into its MIA hub from non gateway cities AA will be the dominant factor.
 
caribny
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:25 am

Zidane wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Which is the interesting part. DOM was built where it is because it was the flattest place on the island, and is effectively the bottom of a long valley. Building in any other direction will mean moving a lot of dirt.

That’s the plan. To level the terrain and then build on top of it. Best of luck to them with that though as that’s extremely costly for very little return.

Building from scratch is always more expensive. A cheaper alternative is to extend the runway seawards and build a larger North apron. The approach path can then be cleaned up by flattening some hills.



Either option requires levelling hills, but given that the DOM gov't has already removed farmers off their lands (I hoped they paid them promptly not only for loss of land, but also income) I assume that any expansion of the existing airport isnt going to move ahead.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 577
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:34 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:

It's supposed to be in Wesley, just a bit north of DOM.

FLL won't work. For So. Fla, DOM will need to be connected to the MIA hub to have any chance of lasting service. Very little of DOM demand is O&D to SJU so the only way that service outlasts any potential MIA service would be if the MIA numbers are so low that it just makes sense to funnel people to DOM on smaller planes from SJU. As you noted, DOM is tiny with very limited tourism appeal. Ross closing just made matters worse. I don't see the point of investing in a larger airport but when all your neighbors have now done so, I guess you feel the need to do the same.

Well Wesley isn't any flatter than the area around DOM, so it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it. I think FLL is just as well-connected to the major markets in the Lower 48 at this point as MIA, and with lower cost (in theory). B6 also has a good reputation in the Caribbean. International transfers over So-Fla are likely to be small in number. Though there is some traffic to and from the UK, that could continue to flow over ANU or BGI to BA and avoid US Immigration.

The runway will not face the same direction as DOM. It will not directly face any mountains. FLL won’t work. The only destination in the Eastern Caribbean that B6 has been able to make work from FLL is SXM, and that’s new so the jury is still out. They struggled to both BGI and POS which are both much larger markets than DOM. They never even attempted other markets larger than DOM such as UVF and ANU. All of these, and more, are served by AA from MIA. FLL-DOM would be dead on arrival.


NK historically has had similar issues with FLL-Eastern Caribbean. The strongest routes from FLL seem to be VFR routes though even this has exceptions. The pure leisure routes don't work nor do the very niche VFR routes. I am not sure FLL-DOM would work for B6 or NK.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA launching MIA-TLV/PBM/LIT

Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:36 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Well Wesley isn't any flatter than the area around DOM, so it'll be interesting to see how they deal with it. I think FLL is just as well-connected to the major markets in the Lower 48 at this point as MIA, and with lower cost (in theory). B6 also has a good reputation in the Caribbean. International transfers over So-Fla are likely to be small in number. Though there is some traffic to and from the UK, that could continue to flow over ANU or BGI to BA and avoid US Immigration.

The runway will not face the same direction as DOM. It will not directly face any mountains. FLL won’t work. The only destination in the Eastern Caribbean that B6 has been able to make work from FLL is SXM, and that’s new so the jury is still out. They struggled to both BGI and POS which are both much larger markets than DOM. They never even attempted other markets larger than DOM such as UVF and ANU. All of these, and more, are served by AA from MIA. FLL-DOM would be dead on arrival.


NK historically has had similar issues with FLL-Eastern Caribbean. The strongest routes from FLL seem to be VFR routes though even this has exceptions. The pure leisure routes don't work nor do the very niche VFR routes. I am not sure FLL-DOM would work for B6 or NK.

I don’t know if I’d say it’s a matter of leisure vs. VFR. FLL-MBJ/AUA/PUJ/SXM/PLS all appear to perform well enough. POS is a VFR route. NK tried it years ago and didn’t succeed. B6 has appeared to struggle on it as well. BGI is a VFR/leisure mix and B6 struggled on that. From FLL, it really is just a matter of the larger markets working and the more niche ones (whether VFR or leisure) not working.

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