Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:40 am

lightsaber wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I thought the whole point of the bail outs would be so they would be ready to go when it was over


Yes! They were supposed to use the money to be ready for full scale operations when demand returned.

AA was more interested in protecting it's stock price and executives benefits then planning for smooth operations when demand returned

I think AA is more concerned about surviving. While bad, this seems to be too common now. No one planned on it taking this long so the companies that reduced fixed costs will be better off long term.

If everyone has issues, fares will go up and that is good enough.

Lightsaber
if the market didn’t come back they just would have gone bankrupt and got more bail outs
 
LexPassenger
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 11:36 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:31 am

My brother is a res agent for AA, started with Piedmont in the 80's. He says this is the worst he's ever seen. He says res agents were required to work four hours of overtime EVERY DAY until this last weekend, when the union told AA it was killing them. He says new deal since Monday is everybody takes 8 hours a week extra but can pick when. Maybe this will rest enough people to make them more productive, or maybe this will just cut back res even more. Any true grift from you AA res dudes?
 
OKCDCA
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:50 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:36 am

ozark1 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
AA is running into schedule issues on the ground now. Flights are arriving on time and no gates available in CLT and DFW.

Apparently this is a problem that will never be solved. I’ve waited for gates for 40 years. There has also been a noticeable increase in waiting for an agent once we get to the gate. So, very typically, we land a half hour early, wait for 40 minutes, pull in, and no one to work the jet bridge. Noticeable increase in these incidents after the AA agents unionized (US agents already were). I do understand how frustrating it must be to coordinate scheduling a ramp up with the fluidity of mask usage, virus variants, MAX problems, duty periods, heat temps above normal, thunderstorms etc. etc. Sure it is GREAT when we land early and pull right in to a gate that is staffed and ready. We just don’t count on that happening

I've had this happen numerous times lately too and it makes me wonder why this has not become an automated process as well. If we can have a system that directs an airplane into the gate, why can we not have a system that guides the jet bridge to the aircraft door without an operator? The FA's can open the door and the door from the jet bridge to the terminal can be opened by the passengers. If there's a security issue then make it part of the FA's duty to open the door to the terminal and monitor until the agent arrives.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3080
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:02 am

OKCDCA wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
AA is running into schedule issues on the ground now. Flights are arriving on time and no gates available in CLT and DFW.

Apparently this is a problem that will never be solved. I’ve waited for gates for 40 years. There has also been a noticeable increase in waiting for an agent once we get to the gate. So, very typically, we land a half hour early, wait for 40 minutes, pull in, and no one to work the jet bridge. Noticeable increase in these incidents after the AA agents unionized (US agents already were). I do understand how frustrating it must be to coordinate scheduling a ramp up with the fluidity of mask usage, virus variants, MAX problems, duty periods, heat temps above normal, thunderstorms etc. etc. Sure it is GREAT when we land early and pull right in to a gate that is staffed and ready. We just don’t count on that happening

I've had this happen numerous times lately too and it makes me wonder why this has not become an automated process as well. If we can have a system that directs an airplane into the gate, why can we not have a system that guides the jet bridge to the aircraft door without an operator? The FA's can open the door and the door from the jet bridge to the terminal can be opened by the passengers. If there's a security issue then make it part of the FA's duty to open the door to the terminal and monitor until the agent arrives.


We have several automated jetways throughout the system but like DGS on the ramp, it still requires someone there to start it and monitor it and be there to hit the e-stop. A large number of the jetways are not able to be retrofitted with that technology though due to the differences in design over the years which would require all new electrical systems (not cost effective).
 
MaxTrimm
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:12 am

DMPHL wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

I just didn’t realize an A321 on a route that length would have any fuel issues. I figure it could take a fair bit less than full and be fine. Doesn’t seem all that long. But shows what I know.

It can carry enough fuel, but with a full load of passengers and cargo, the high temperatures, and required fuel load (especially of alternate fuel is needed, and any extra fuel for navigating around storms), the plane can end up being too heavy due the length of the runway. The plane isn’t at its max weight, but the high temps require reduced thrust which requires a longer runway or reduction in weight. There’s still plenty of room in the tanks, but takeoff performance is limited by the temperature. I fly the 321 and it’s rarely an issue but it can happen in the summer, especially in LAS, DEN, and PHX.


Can you go into a little more detail about this? It comes up a lot w/r/t other routes, as well, including with altitude on DL's JNB-ATL, for instance. I understand it on a basic level, but there do seem to be a number of factors people bring into the discussion including combinations of MTOW (and what MTOW an aircraft is rated for), heat, altitude, runway length, engine ratings (e.g. can the engine be rated for an increased thrust on takeoff?) Is there anything that technically could be amended, but is not worth the $$ to actually do? Is rotation speed at that weight and heat just too high to be safe?

Maybe technically unlettered questions, but just curious, if you have a chance to explain, what technical things you can share on the performance limitations and how they play off of each other.

I’m not an expert, but I do work and study in a flight school environment and I can tell you that it mostly boils down to this meteorology/aviation term called “density altitude,” which factors in altitude, temperature, and the air density into a figure. Oftentimes, especially in places like PHX, LAS, JNB, DEN, when you combine the thin air with higher altitude above sea level, the “density altitude” may be super high, at DEN I’ve seen it be like double the true altitude above sea level. As far as the airplane is concerned, if, per say, the density altitude is 10,000 feet, the airplanes engines need to produce enough thrust to get off the ground with the air density outside equal to as if you’re 10,000 feet above sea level. Every airplane has performance charts that factor in density altitude among many other things, and when things don’t fall within the “envelope,” it’s. no-go.

I would say density altitude is the single most important figure in calculating engine performance. I hope this somewhat answered your question.
 
graham697
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:59 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:26 pm

alasizon wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Apparently this is a problem that will never be solved. I’ve waited for gates for 40 years. There has also been a noticeable increase in waiting for an agent once we get to the gate. So, very typically, we land a half hour early, wait for 40 minutes, pull in, and no one to work the jet bridge. Noticeable increase in these incidents after the AA agents unionized (US agents already were). I do understand how frustrating it must be to coordinate scheduling a ramp up with the fluidity of mask usage, virus variants, MAX problems, duty periods, heat temps above normal, thunderstorms etc. etc. Sure it is GREAT when we land early and pull right in to a gate that is staffed and ready. We just don’t count on that happening

I've had this happen numerous times lately too and it makes me wonder why this has not become an automated process as well. If we can have a system that directs an airplane into the gate, why can we not have a system that guides the jet bridge to the aircraft door without an operator? The FA's can open the door and the door from the jet bridge to the terminal can be opened by the passengers. If there's a security issue then make it part of the FA's duty to open the door to the terminal and monitor until the agent arrives.


We have several automated jetways throughout the system but like DGS on the ramp, it still requires someone there to start it and monitor it and be there to hit the e-stop. A large number of the jetways are not able to be retrofitted with that technology though due to the differences in design over the years which would require all new electrical systems (not cost effective).


This technology is definitely not used on the new Eagle concourse at DCA - the poor piedmont folks are struggling with the jetways.
 
DMPHL
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:30 pm

MaxTrimm wrote:
DMPHL wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
It can carry enough fuel, but with a full load of passengers and cargo, the high temperatures, and required fuel load (especially of alternate fuel is needed, and any extra fuel for navigating around storms), the plane can end up being too heavy due the length of the runway. The plane isn’t at its max weight, but the high temps require reduced thrust which requires a longer runway or reduction in weight. There’s still plenty of room in the tanks, but takeoff performance is limited by the temperature. I fly the 321 and it’s rarely an issue but it can happen in the summer, especially in LAS, DEN, and PHX.


Can you go into a little more detail about this? It comes up a lot w/r/t other routes, as well, including with altitude on DL's JNB-ATL, for instance. I understand it on a basic level, but there do seem to be a number of factors people bring into the discussion including combinations of MTOW (and what MTOW an aircraft is rated for), heat, altitude, runway length, engine ratings (e.g. can the engine be rated for an increased thrust on takeoff?) Is there anything that technically could be amended, but is not worth the $$ to actually do? Is rotation speed at that weight and heat just too high to be safe?

Maybe technically unlettered questions, but just curious, if you have a chance to explain, what technical things you can share on the performance limitations and how they play off of each other.

I’m not an expert, but I do work and study in a flight school environment and I can tell you that it mostly boils down to this meteorology/aviation term called “density altitude,” which factors in altitude, temperature, and the air density into a figure. Oftentimes, especially in places like PHX, LAS, JNB, DEN, when you combine the thin air with higher altitude above sea level, the “density altitude” may be super high, at DEN I’ve seen it be like double the true altitude above sea level. As far as the airplane is concerned, if, per say, the density altitude is 10,000 feet, the airplanes engines need to produce enough thrust to get off the ground with the air density outside equal to as if you’re 10,000 feet above sea level. Every airplane has performance charts that factor in density altitude among many other things, and when things don’t fall within the “envelope,” it’s. no-go.

I would say density altitude is the single most important figure in calculating engine performance. I hope this somewhat answered your question.


Definitely helpful. Thank you!
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:33 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
The pilots rebid equipment and many of those where very senior (B757 & B767 & A330), Some might have got the B787 but most I bet ended up on B737, bumping a bunch of qualified B737 pilots to airbus. So now you have twice the number of pilots you have to retrain.


I'm losing a colleague now to AA to become a pilot. He'll be off the street and getting his commercial wings for the first time. :)

DualQual wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
But then why would management do this? The C-Suite folks aren't stupid.


Stupid? Not necessarily. Capable of doing extremely stupid things? Absolutely. It wouldn’t shock me in the least if this is again a time when the C-Suite (or whatever higher level minion was tasked by them) came up with such a plan and carried on with it even in the face of the knowledgeable stakeholders (flight ops, airport ops, training, scheduling) telling them repeatedly that there is no way in hell we can do this. It certainly isn’t the first such instance and its a cycle that repeats itself every few years at every operator. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


Don't forget, many colossal failures of mankind needed extremely smart people to pull them off.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10200
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:59 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Yes! They were supposed to use the money to be ready for full scale operations when demand returned.


That's an interesting interpretation but certainly not what was required under the law(s). Maintain stations (or seek a waiver). No dividends or buybacks. No invol layoffs isn't be ready for full scale operations.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5250
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:03 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Yes! They were supposed to use the money to be ready for full scale operations when demand returned.


That's an interesting interpretation but certainly not what was required under the law(s). Maintain stations (or seek a waiver). No dividends or buybacks. No invol layoffs isn't be ready for full scale operations.


No that's what the airlines and unions said. It wasn't required by law because it's impossible to enforce or track but why they said why they didnt want to do layoffs. The whole point of not laying people off was to get full scale operations when demand picked up. Ie why those employees didn't go thru the normal unemployment channels
 
slowrambler
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:21 pm

I've noticed that recently there's 3x daily mainline DCA-JFK, which I haven't seen in... any time I can remember.
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:41 pm

slowrambler wrote:
I've noticed that recently there's 3x daily mainline DCA-JFK, which I haven't seen in... any time I can remember.

Just a bit ago there wasn’t ANYTHING between DCA-JFK. That’s big.
Nature is healing
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Yes! They were supposed to use the money to be ready for full scale operations when demand returned.


That's an interesting interpretation but certainly not what was required under the law(s). Maintain stations (or seek a waiver). No dividends or buybacks. No invol layoffs isn't be ready for full scale operations.

If you aren’t laying peuple off then why aren’t you keeping them ready to go?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15186
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:57 am

9w748capt wrote:
slider wrote:
After having been in the airline universe for a few decades plus, I still shudder to think of how many utter imbeciles run airlines.

AA is fully to blame.


Yup. Though you have to give it up to Dougie too. Even after continually cutting and degrading the onboard product to absurd levels, suckers like me continue to give him money. If AA knew weeks ago that they'd be having these issues, again good on them for conning us. They knew they'd get our money one way or the other.

That’s why I feel not so bad about finding crazy mileage deals where I have a family of 4 flying transcon RT in F going out and J on a 77W coming back for 45k each. I like to use miles to max value. Sure it’s not quite as good as when I used 110k CO miles on QANTAS for LAX-SYD/F, SYD-PER (Y as no seats in J available), PER-MEL-LAX J/F. That included access to all the F lounges of course.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:48 am

ikramerica wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Time for the airlines to increase their pay or benefits to get people. Make non revving good again to start


non revving is neigh impossible because everyone is taking turns having meltdowns and sending their canceled pax to ride on other airlines

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
There are still many airline positions, including those at AA's subsidiary companies that pay minimum wage, and that's union jobs as well.


As someone else said, you can make more at Bucees and be in the air conditioning all day. Also more and more businesses are starting out at 15+ per hour, Universal Studios being the most recent one to come to mind. Who in their right minds would want to be a gate agent making 2/3rds of that? And have to clean planes between turns on top of that??

We aren’t supposed to be political, but the $15 per hour laws passed around the country kicked many unions in the teeth in the short term. In the long term, the next round of contract talks will be brutal. When McD’s is starting at $15.75 near me, with benefits, who is going to want to do something more difficult for less?


I don't know for every union, but I know IAM/AW's contract with McGee Air Services/Alaska Airlines, has the option for higher local wages in certain areas.

FWIW, at least in Seattle, if a company is paying the $16.69/hr for Seattle, or the $13.69/hr for the rest of the state, they're going to have trouble getting employees.. Pay just doesn't tend to be that low for jobs here in the Seattle area.
 
448205
Posts: 2323
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:00 am

smithbs wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
The pilots rebid equipment and many of those where very senior (B757 & B767 & A330), Some might have got the B787 but most I bet ended up on B737, bumping a bunch of qualified B737 pilots to airbus. So now you have twice the number of pilots you have to retrain.


I'm losing a colleague now to AA to become a pilot. He'll be off the street and getting his commercial wings for the first time. :)



If he's a new pilot he will be working for a regional, not AA.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4908
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 am

It looks like AA's JFK long haul operation is seeing operational issues on what seems to be an almost daily basis. AA 94 (JFK-MAD) from 6/24 has been delayed to 3:30pm this afternoon, the JFK-EZE flight has also taken 12 or 16 hour delays. The TLV flight has also seen some massive delays on a few days. JFK-ATH, JFK-FCO, JFK-MXP and JFK-LHR seem to have had a more stable operational history in terms of on time performance.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10993
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:15 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Yes! They were supposed to use the money to be ready for full scale operations when demand returned.


That's an interesting interpretation but certainly not what was required under the law(s). Maintain stations (or seek a waiver). No dividends or buybacks. No invol layoffs isn't be ready for full scale operations.


No that's what the airlines and unions said. It wasn't required by law because it's impossible to enforce or track but why they said why they didnt want to do layoffs. The whole point of not laying people off was to get full scale operations when demand picked up. Ie why those employees didn't go thru the normal unemployment channels

So the government should have had some additional stipulations in the stimulus package that specifically targeted airline operations and FAA rules and regulations. The pilots were kept employed but the airlines spent little to no money keeping them current with flying time either in the air - rotating more crews on cargo trips - or spending funds / resources on simulator time, the icing on the cake was retiring fleets and having to go through the rebid process. Here is where I think the fault lies and they have no excuse, since the union contracts allow and or mandate the rebid process and the seniors get priority, additional funds should have been spent then to get all involved recertified on their new a/c as soon as possible.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:43 pm

ikramerica wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Time for the airlines to increase their pay or benefits to get people. Make non revving good again to start


non revving is neigh impossible because everyone is taking turns having meltdowns and sending their canceled pax to ride on other airlines

FlyEndeavorAir wrote:
There are still many airline positions, including those at AA's subsidiary companies that pay minimum wage, and that's union jobs as well.


As someone else said, you can make more at Bucees and be in the air conditioning all day. Also more and more businesses are starting out at 15+ per hour, Universal Studios being the most recent one to come to mind. Who in their right minds would want to be a gate agent making 2/3rds of that? And have to clean planes between turns on top of that??

We aren’t supposed to be political, but the $15 per hour laws passed around the country kicked many unions in the teeth in the short term. In the long term, the next round of contract talks will be brutal. When McD’s is starting at $15.75 near me, with benefits, who is going to want to do something more difficult for less?

What do you mean the unions? They aren’t responsible for hiring. If anything they have more leverage to ask for money. Wages are gonna have to go up to keep up
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5250
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:28 pm

32andBelow wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Yes! They were supposed to use the money to be ready for full scale operations when demand returned.


That's an interesting interpretation but certainly not what was required under the law(s). Maintain stations (or seek a waiver). No dividends or buybacks. No invol layoffs isn't be ready for full scale operations.

If you aren’t laying peuple off then why aren’t you keeping them ready to go?


Yes. The excuses are really reaching this time. AA failed here. They should have been much more ready to go when demand picked up. AA didnt seem interested in having their staff ready and its showing right now. Terrible planning and AA is paying the price right now
 
BA777
Posts: 2052
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:40 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:38 pm

I'm a 737NG check airman in the UK and out of work, I'd happily come over for 6 months to help.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:56 pm

kalvado wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
If you aren’t laying peuple off then why aren’t you keeping them ready to go?


Yes. The excuses are really reaching this time. AA failed here. They should have been much more ready to go when demand picked up. AA didnt seem interested in having their staff ready and its showing right now. Terrible planning and AA is paying the price right now

Union contracts definitely play a role in the mess, though - and not at AA only; and there isn't much what airline management can do about it.Union hurting the company - it never happened before, so why it happens again and again?

Please explain what a Union has to do with the airline paying less than fast food? You think the Union would not accept a mid contract salary increase for their members?
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:01 pm

32andBelow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Yes. The excuses are really reaching this time. AA failed here. They should have been much more ready to go when demand picked up. AA didnt seem interested in having their staff ready and its showing right now. Terrible planning and AA is paying the price right now

Union contracts definitely play a role in the mess, though - and not at AA only; and there isn't much what airline management can do about it.Union hurting the company - it never happened before, so why it happens again and again?

Please explain what a Union has to do with the airline paying less than fast food? You think the Union would not accept a mid contract salary increase for their members?

Maybe unions have something to do with pilot re-training mess, though?
 
ckfred
Posts: 5202
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:06 pm

Drive past any store or restaurant, and there is a help wanted sign. I think people grew accustomed to how organized labor lay-offs work. When the Big Three laid off hourly workers during an economic downturn, they started with the least senior people and worked up the seniority ladder, until the number of workers designated was reached. As the economy picked up, workers were called back, starting with those with the most seniority.

People assumed that if a retailer or restaurant laid off people, they would go back when restrictions allowed more hours, or business picked up. But, many workers either found other work, are biding their time with unemployment, or are making wholesale changes (shifting industries or going back to school).

I've read that the travel industry (airlines, hotels, rental cars, etc.) are all seeing stronger bookings for this summer than were anticipated. Many hotels don't have enough staff and are booking fewer rooms than capacity. Rental car companies are short of vehicles. The airlines are dealing with staffing shortages and the usual summer weather problems.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:05 pm

kalvado wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Union contracts definitely play a role in the mess, though - and not at AA only; and there isn't much what airline management can do about it.Union hurting the company - it never happened before, so why it happens again and again?

Please explain what a Union has to do with the airline paying less than fast food? You think the Union would not accept a mid contract salary increase for their members?

Maybe unions have something to do with pilot re-training mess, though?

Possibly. I think the airlines should have declared act of god and avoided all this double retraining. Totally crazy and inefficient.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5250
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:30 pm

If the airlines "proactively" cancel flights due to storm potential days ahead. IE they just dont have the capacity and are looking for flights to cancel. Does that get them out of paying any expenses for passengers stuck now? What if those storms never materialize.

I know they want to blame everything on weather but day ahead proactively cancel due to "storm potential" and we are not talking a hurricane here seems like its really pushing the weather excuse. Anyone know how AA is handling these cancellations or WN for that matter.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2873
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:47 pm

Would one be safe to assume AA may have more cancellations as the end of the month approaches?
Thinking of flight crews running out of hours by next Wednesday?
 
N649DL
Posts: 1187
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:10 pm

ckfred wrote:
Drive past any store or restaurant, and there is a help wanted sign. I think people grew accustomed to how organized labor lay-offs work. When the Big Three laid off hourly workers during an economic downturn, they started with the least senior people and worked up the seniority ladder, until the number of workers designated was reached. As the economy picked up, workers were called back, starting with those with the most seniority.

People assumed that if a retailer or restaurant laid off people, they would go back when restrictions allowed more hours, or business picked up. But, many workers either found other work, are biding their time with unemployment, or are making wholesale changes (shifting industries or going back to school).

I've read that the travel industry (airlines, hotels, rental cars, etc.) are all seeing stronger bookings for this summer than were anticipated. Many hotels don't have enough staff and are booking fewer rooms than capacity. Rental car companies are short of vehicles. The airlines are dealing with staffing shortages and the usual summer weather problems.


I think you're right. When I rent to BOS recently I experienced this more or less as the country was re-opening. Rental car prices were through the roof, hotels provided the bare minimum (EG: No room service at a Hilton in BOS and then another timeshare in Hyannis, MA issued mandates to take out your trash upon checkout or get fined), DL ran out of drinks on flights and/or not serving meals in F, long Uber waits and/or bad communication to/from the drivers. Upon getting back to home to LAX it was a $60 Uber ride back to my neighborhood whereas it was less than $20 on the outbound. Both were at peak departure and arrival times.

I will say (per usual) Hilton in downtown BOS was actually pretty good overall. DL on the other hand, not so much. I'm noticing a pattern: Upgrades occur quickly but service doesn't. They've taken a nosedive from the good old pre-COVID days. It's just sad. I can't speak to AA, but they might actually be better from an at least onboard service perspective these days.

Overall, the prices I paid were similar to pre-COVID and with worse service and more attitude. If America is ready to reopen, let's get it back to 2019 standards and not have things be so sloppy through poor mostly app-based communication. I'd rather stay home than deal with bad and/or stupidly automated customer service.

Back to AA, I think people with short-term memories forget how many brand new aircraft AA took on to replace older frames (EG: Aggressively phasing out the S80) and then digested US around the same time. So it's no wonder their debt and staffing issues are hazardous.
Last edited by N649DL on Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4362
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:10 pm

32andBelow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Please explain what a Union has to do with the airline paying less than fast food? You think the Union would not accept a mid contract salary increase for their members?

Maybe unions have something to do with pilot re-training mess, though?

Possibly. I think the airlines should have declared act of god and avoided all this double retraining. Totally crazy and inefficient.


Declaring Force Majeure would have made zero difference in regards to pilot training. As long as AA is operating flights they have to follow the seniority provisions of their contract.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5106
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:46 am

It´s almost back to business as usual for American Airlines down at EZE tonight, with 3 777s (1 77W and 2 77E) waiting for their assignments to fly back to MIA, DFW & JFK.

https://twitter.com/GDS_AA/status/1408594916972847108
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:53 am

usflyer msp wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Maybe unions have something to do with pilot re-training mess, though?

Possibly. I think the airlines should have declared act of god and avoided all this double retraining. Totally crazy and inefficient.


Declaring Force Majeure would have made zero difference in regards to pilot training. As long as AA is operating flights they have to follow the seniority provisions of their contract.

Disqualifying people off 737 just to requalify them 12 months later is absolutely idiotic and could have been avoided with some foresight.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:00 am

Decisions were made and set in motion over a year ago based on a very unclear forecast about demand/revenue recovery and on the amount/timing/conditions of CARES act bailout money.

Hindsight is 20/20 and these issues and decisions are far more complicated than some of the things being thrown out on here.

Full disclaimer, I am not an AA fanboy / apologist....but in my Industry we are dealing with many of the same decisions and issues as seen with airlines. Things don’t turn back on like a switch for a variety of reasons
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:01 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Decisions were made and set in motion over a year ago based on a very unclear forecast about demand/revenue recovery and on the amount/timing/conditions of CARES act bailout money.

Hindsight is 20/20 and these issues and decisions are far more complicated than some of the things being thrown out on here.

Full disclaimer, I am not an AA fanboy / apologist....but in my Industry we are dealing with many of the same decisions and issues as seen with airlines. Things don’t turn back on like a switch for a variety of reasons

The salaries were paid for. Just keep everyone qualified for where they need to be. Pay everyone min guarantee and keep everyone flying.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4362
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:10 am

32andBelow wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Possibly. I think the airlines should have declared act of god and avoided all this double retraining. Totally crazy and inefficient.


Declaring Force Majeure would have made zero difference in regards to pilot training. As long as AA is operating flights they have to follow the seniority provisions of their contract.

Disqualifying people off 737 just to requalify them 12 months later is absolutely idiotic and could have been avoided with some foresight.


I agree that it is stupid but there is no way to avoid it when several fleet types are retired at once. The A330 pilots bumped some 787 pilots down to 32X which bumped some 32x pilots down to the 737 which bumped some 737 pilots to the street.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:10 am

When the decisions were made to retire fleet types and make other structural cost saving efforts the amount and timing was unclear.

While salaries may have been paid for that didn’t cover all of the other costs associated with maintaining excess aircraft during the enormous and uncertain duration downturn.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4362
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:13 am

32andBelow wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Decisions were made and set in motion over a year ago based on a very unclear forecast about demand/revenue recovery and on the amount/timing/conditions of CARES act bailout money.

Hindsight is 20/20 and these issues and decisions are far more complicated than some of the things being thrown out on here.

Full disclaimer, I am not an AA fanboy / apologist....but in my Industry we are dealing with many of the same decisions and issues as seen with airlines. Things don’t turn back on like a switch for a variety of reasons

The salaries were paid for. Just keep everyone qualified for where they need to be. Pay everyone min guarantee and keep everyone flying.


Everyone can't stay where they are when you retire four fleet types. In your view what should AA have done with the A330 and 757/767 pilots!
 
Captaincurious
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:31 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:08 am

usflyer msp wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Decisions were made and set in motion over a year ago based on a very unclear forecast about demand/revenue recovery and on the amount/timing/conditions of CARES act bailout money.

Hindsight is 20/20 and these issues and decisions are far more complicated than some of the things being thrown out on here.

Full disclaimer, I am not an AA fanboy / apologist....but in my Industry we are dealing with many of the same decisions and issues as seen with airlines. Things don’t turn back on like a switch for a variety of reasons

The salaries were paid for. Just keep everyone qualified for where they need to be. Pay everyone min guarantee and keep everyone flying.


Everyone can't stay where they are when you retire four fleet types. In your view what should AA have done with the A330 and 757/767 pilots!


Not quite familiar with the system. Why can't AA just retrain those pilots to 737 pilots and ignore seniority?
 
USAirKid
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:38 am

Captaincurious wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The salaries were paid for. Just keep everyone qualified for where they need to be. Pay everyone min guarantee and keep everyone flying.


Everyone can't stay where they are when you retire four fleet types. In your view what should AA have done with the A330 and 757/767 pilots!


Not quite familiar with the system. Why can't AA just retrain those pilots to 737 pilots and ignore seniority?


In the airline business everything is about seniority. If they ignore seniority, they end up battling the union and losing.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:57 am

usflyer msp wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Decisions were made and set in motion over a year ago based on a very unclear forecast about demand/revenue recovery and on the amount/timing/conditions of CARES act bailout money.

Hindsight is 20/20 and these issues and decisions are far more complicated than some of the things being thrown out on here.

Full disclaimer, I am not an AA fanboy / apologist....but in my Industry we are dealing with many of the same decisions and issues as seen with airlines. Things don’t turn back on like a switch for a variety of reasons

The salaries were paid for. Just keep everyone qualified for where they need to be. Pay everyone min guarantee and keep everyone flying.


Everyone can't stay where they are when you retire four fleet types. In your view what should AA have done with the A330 and 757/767 pilots!

Put them where they were gonna go in the long term. Put don’t do a double up and down. Like when they parked 737s leave the 737 staffing full strength cus you know in just a year or two they are all gonna come out of the desert. And if the 330 guys are gonna go 787 or 350 in a year just train them right into that. Don’t train them into 737 and then the 737 guys into a320 and then 9 months later train that a320 guys back into 737 and the 737 guys to 787 or whatever. Not only are they paying exorbitant training and sim
Costs. They’re network is melting down
 
alasizon
Posts: 3080
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:14 am

32andBelow wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The salaries were paid for. Just keep everyone qualified for where they need to be. Pay everyone min guarantee and keep everyone flying.


Everyone can't stay where they are when you retire four fleet types. In your view what should AA have done with the A330 and 757/767 pilots!

Put them where they were gonna go in the long term. Put don’t do a double up and down. Like when they parked 737s leave the 737 staffing full strength cus you know in just a year or two they are all gonna come out of the desert. And if the 330 guys are gonna go 787 or 350 in a year just train them right into that. Don’t train them into 737 and then the 737 guys into a320 and then 9 months later train that a320 guys back into 737 and the 737 guys to 787 or whatever. Not only are they paying exorbitant training and sim
Costs. They’re network is melting down


Basically you would like AA to just ignore their contract with the pilots and operate completely outside it. Just not going to happen, this is the exact same reason why DL has also had two meltdowns since traffic began to recover.

And no, AA's network isn't melting down because 50-80 out of the 2800 or so scheduled departures were cancelled due to crew and are continuing to be cancelled further and further in advance.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:49 pm

All airlines are having problems spooling back up past Covid. The fact that AA and Southwest are having to cancel large numbers of flights shows a lack of organizational control. Management was unable to correctly predict how many flights tbey would be able to operate sufficiently far enough ahead of time to build a realistic schedule. That's on Management.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10993
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:58 pm

The financial issue and the bet taken for the most part may have paid off but when the bumps arrive they can be painful. CARES Act funds kept staff employed and with health benefits, parking and maintenance fees for a/c had to be paid, a decision was made to retire entire fleets then another bet was taken. Based on the "experts" who said the industry would not recover until 2022 / 2023, the bet to slowly transition and maintain proficiency of flight crew seemed pretty good, DL earlier showed how that gamble went and AA has now proven it. Unfortunately, when training / recertification / certification is required, you cannot ramp up as you like, however, after seeing DL issues, I still assume that more could have been done by AA to at least be better prepared, not from the flying aspect but Customer Service and taking a benefit hit as in more free miles compensation etc. anything to make the customer believe that you are sorry for the inconvenience.
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:21 pm

I think what is disappointing to me is that AA was flying more at the heights of the pandamic, so it should have been easier for them to deal with increases. I trusted them to get me on my trips last years over anyone else because of the amount of flights they had. I did 3 Mexico trips with AA because if they would cancel a flight there was at least one more flight that day. Same with Southwest they were flying way more, should have had an easier time adjusting to the increase.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:44 pm

par13del wrote:
The financial issue and the bet taken for the most part may have paid off but when the bumps arrive they can be painful. CARES Act funds kept staff employed and with health benefits, parking and maintenance fees for a/c had to be paid, a decision was made to retire entire fleets then another bet was taken. Based on the "experts" who said the industry would not recover until 2022 / 2023, the bet to slowly transition and maintain proficiency of flight crew seemed pretty good, DL earlier showed how that gamble went and AA has now proven it. Unfortunately, when training / recertification / certification is required, you cannot ramp up as you like, however, after seeing DL issues, I still assume that more could have been done by AA to at least be better prepared, not from the flying aspect but Customer Service and taking a benefit hit as in more free miles compensation etc. anything to make the customer believe that you are sorry for the inconvenience.

The experts made no sense. As soon as you could see these vaccines were coming together. Which was like last December you know this thing was gonna be wrapped up.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:46 pm

32andBelow wrote:
par13del wrote:
The financial issue and the bet taken for the most part may have paid off but when the bumps arrive they can be painful. CARES Act funds kept staff employed and with health benefits, parking and maintenance fees for a/c had to be paid, a decision was made to retire entire fleets then another bet was taken. Based on the "experts" who said the industry would not recover until 2022 / 2023, the bet to slowly transition and maintain proficiency of flight crew seemed pretty good, DL earlier showed how that gamble went and AA has now proven it. Unfortunately, when training / recertification / certification is required, you cannot ramp up as you like, however, after seeing DL issues, I still assume that more could have been done by AA to at least be better prepared, not from the flying aspect but Customer Service and taking a benefit hit as in more free miles compensation etc. anything to make the customer believe that you are sorry for the inconvenience.

The experts made no sense. As soon as you could see these vaccines were coming together. Which was like last December you know this thing was gonna be wrapped up.

That’s kind of disingenuous as the decisions to retire fleets happened long before it was obvious that vaccines would have been developed and rolled out this quickly. I don’t think anyone was announcing fleet retirements in December.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5741
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:50 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
par13del wrote:
The financial issue and the bet taken for the most part may have paid off but when the bumps arrive they can be painful. CARES Act funds kept staff employed and with health benefits, parking and maintenance fees for a/c had to be paid, a decision was made to retire entire fleets then another bet was taken. Based on the "experts" who said the industry would not recover until 2022 / 2023, the bet to slowly transition and maintain proficiency of flight crew seemed pretty good, DL earlier showed how that gamble went and AA has now proven it. Unfortunately, when training / recertification / certification is required, you cannot ramp up as you like, however, after seeing DL issues, I still assume that more could have been done by AA to at least be better prepared, not from the flying aspect but Customer Service and taking a benefit hit as in more free miles compensation etc. anything to make the customer believe that you are sorry for the inconvenience.

The experts made no sense. As soon as you could see these vaccines were coming together. Which was like last December you know this thing was gonna be wrapped up.

That’s kind of disingenuous as the decisions to retire fleets happened long before it was obvious that vaccines would have been developed and rolled out this quickly. I don’t think anyone was announcing fleet retirements in December.

I’m not talking about fleet retirements. When you retire planes you have even more crew available. So have crew cancels after that is pretty bad. Their obviously still not flying a full wide body or even domestic schedule yet.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4908
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:50 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
I think what is disappointing to me is that AA was flying more at the heights of the pandamic, so it should have been easier for them to deal with increases. I trusted them to get me on my trips last years over anyone else because of the amount of flights they had. I did 3 Mexico trips with AA because if they would cancel a flight there was at least one more flight that day. Same with Southwest they were flying way more, should have had an easier time adjusting to the increase.


Part of the issue is the significant and short-notice change of routes, reassigning aircraft and crews, both during the height of the pandemic and the last 2 months as things have improved. Both AA and WN have been very aggressive at entering new markets, city pairs, and beefing up domestic service and this isn't done at the flip of a switch. UA has been much more conservative with its approach, sticking to its franchise hubs and not creating new focus cities. Delta has pared focus cities back significantly to shore up the key ones it has.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4908
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:53 pm

dcajet wrote:
It´s almost back to business as usual for American Airlines down at EZE tonight, with 3 777s (1 77W and 2 77E) waiting for their assignments to fly back to MIA, DFW & JFK.

https://twitter.com/GDS_AA/status/1408594916972847108


Nice to see this. Pre-pandemic, AA was up to 3 x daily at EZE in peak season from MIA. Going to take a while to build that back, but AA essentially owns US-Argentina.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1368
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: AA Facing Summer Cancellations and Crewing Issues

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:16 pm

SteelChair wrote:
All airlines are having problems spooling back up past Covid. The fact that AA and Southwest are having to cancel large numbers of flights shows a lack of organizational control. Management was unable to correctly predict how many flights tbey would be able to operate sufficiently far enough ahead of time to build a realistic schedule. That's on Management.


I did some of that work years ago, and you're right they didn't do a perfect job. But it is complicated when only 1 major item is changing. Adding a new fleet, for example. Or a new market plan. Here, everything was changing. The fleet plan accommodated a very wide range of outcomes. So their staffing posture was not committed to any specific outcome until the vaccines started working well 3 months ago.

They got aggressive with their announced schedule, & granted they could not staff it. That is sort of inexcusable, but given the chaos, I understand how they were unable to do their normal quality operational plan. This will smooth out.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:28 am

I know there have been a lot of international adds with the B6 partnership (JFK-DEL/SCL/ATH/TLV). What do you think could be the next add on the Alaska side of things (I know they have added SEA-LHR/BLR/PVG).

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos