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dcajet
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:39 am

x1234 wrote:
We talk about Europe and Latin America but what about AA's Asia flights? I think the only places active are HND/NRT and ICN. China (PEK PVG HKG) has quarantine rules right now. Is AA losing money to Asia as it is rumored?


Happy to stand corrected, but IIRC AA was hardly making any money at all on their Asian routes even before the pandemic.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:51 am

dcajet wrote:
x1234 wrote:
We talk about Europe and Latin America but what about AA's Asia flights? I think the only places active are HND/NRT and ICN. China (PEK PVG HKG) has quarantine rules right now. Is AA losing money to Asia as it is rumored?


Happy to stand corrected, but IIRC AA was hardly making any money at all on their Asian routes even before the pandemic.


The DFW-Asia routes were for the most part, performing. The LAX-Asia stuff was not. ORD-NRT/PEK/PVG were cut long before the pandemic. Yes, AA has struggled in Asia.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:08 am

Two AA changes at EZE:

* DFW-EZE, currently oparated 4x w with 77E goes daily on Aug.18, with a change of equipment to the 787-9
* MIA-EZE, currently operated daily with the 77W, gets a second daily frequency on Oct. 7, operated with the 787-8

AA should then be back to the usual 4 evening departures ex-EZE, a slight decrease from the southern 2020 summer, which also saw a 3rd daily MIA and a 3x w LAX nonstop.

Source: AA res system
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:45 am

dcajet wrote:
Two AA changes at EZE:

* DFW-EZE, currently oparated 4x w with 77E goes daily on Aug.18, with a change of equipment to the 787-9
* MIA-EZE, currently operated daily with the 77W, gets a second daily frequency on Oct. 7, operated with the 787-8

AA should then be back to the usual 4 evening departures ex-EZE, a slight decrease from the southern 2020 summer, which also saw a 3rd daily MIA and a 3x w LAX nonstop.

Source: AA res system

Right now anything Oct 7 and beyond is more or less a placeholder but things appear to be normalizing but business travellers have to return to justify INTL expansion.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4711
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:51 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
The DFW-Asia routes were for the most part, performing. The LAX-Asia stuff was not. ORD-NRT/PEK/PVG were cut long before the pandemic. Yes, AA has struggled in Asia.


AA does not need to operate ORD-TYO nonstop service on its own metal with AA's partner JL already serving TYO nonstop from ORD along with AA being able to connect passengers onto JL's ORD-TYO nonstop flights from other Eastern U.S. destinations.

While AA hasn't yet started SEA-PVG nonstop service due to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA has plans to serve PVG nonstop from SEA due to the AA-AS partnership along with the connecting feed that AA would be getting onto SEA-PVG from AS flights to SEA and AA CLT/ORD/LAX/MIA/PHL/PHX-SEA flights.

AA's partner JL also offers connections to PEK, SHA, and PVG from ORD and LAX through TYO.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:02 am

JohanTally wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Two AA changes at EZE:

* DFW-EZE, currently oparated 4x w with 77E goes daily on Aug.18, with a change of equipment to the 787-9
* MIA-EZE, currently operated daily with the 77W, gets a second daily frequency on Oct. 7, operated with the 787-8

AA should then be back to the usual 4 evening departures ex-EZE, a slight decrease from the southern 2020 summer, which also saw a 3rd daily MIA and a 3x w LAX nonstop.

Source: AA res system

Right now anything Oct 7 and beyond is more or less a placeholder but things appear to be normalizing but business travellers have to return to justify INTL expansion.


While I agree wholeheartedly with your comment, EZE-MIA is currently running at 95-100% occupancy. There is more demand than supply, even with travel restrictions in place. EZE was just upgauged to the 77W in detriment of GRU, downgauged to the 77E. At this point, demand to/from MIA is mostly driven by the Argentina POS.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:33 am

jplatts wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
The DFW-Asia routes were for the most part, performing. The LAX-Asia stuff was not. ORD-NRT/PEK/PVG were cut long before the pandemic. Yes, AA has struggled in Asia.


AA does not need to operate ORD-TYO nonstop service on its own metal with AA's partner JL already serving TYO nonstop from ORD along with AA being able to connect passengers onto JL's ORD-TYO nonstop flights from other Eastern U.S. destinations.

While AA hasn't yet started SEA-PVG nonstop service due to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA has plans to serve PVG nonstop from SEA due to the AA-AS partnership along with the connecting feed that AA would be getting onto SEA-PVG from AS flights to SEA and AA CLT/ORD/LAX/MIA/PHL/PHX-SEA flights.

AA's partner JL also offers connections to PEK, SHA, and PVG from ORD and LAX through TYO.


No one was arguing that AA needed to operate ORD-TYO butt he fact that that AA could not make the route work, even with a 787-8 illustrates the challenges AA has had with TPAC. The role of ORD in the AA network is very different now than it was pre-merger, but it remains a large one and yes, obviously, JL serves the market but still...

AA successfully moved LAX-PVG to SEA, but hasn't started the route yet, because of the pandemic, of course. Obviously, AA will benefit from AS feed at SEA for this route, but it remains to be seen just how successful it will be regardless. Absent AS, AA wouldn't have a shot and I am not sure it will pull as much traffic from its US hubs through SEA to PVG when the route does get up an running as much as it will pull from AS's SEA hub.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:38 am

JohanTally wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Two AA changes at EZE:

* DFW-EZE, currently oparated 4x w with 77E goes daily on Aug.18, with a change of equipment to the 787-9
* MIA-EZE, currently operated daily with the 77W, gets a second daily frequency on Oct. 7, operated with the 787-8

AA should then be back to the usual 4 evening departures ex-EZE, a slight decrease from the southern 2020 summer, which also saw a 3rd daily MIA and a 3x w LAX nonstop.

Source: AA res system

Right now anything Oct 7 and beyond is more or less a placeholder but things appear to be normalizing but business travellers have to return to justify INTL expansion.


Not entirely. EZE is unique in that it depends a lot less on business travel to work than you think. At the height of the pandemic once the MIA-EZE route resumed, on a 77W no less, it was going out 95-100% full. Part of that of course was the limited number of flights, but the demand is pretty strong year-round and generates equal parts demand and POS from the EZE and US origin. AA also has some structural advantages in EZE in that it has a crew base and other operations there that allow it to capture some lower costs. While Argentina's boom and bust cycles impact demand, for AA it is pretty much a constant with DFW-MIA, 2 and up to 3 x daily MIA-EZE in peak season, plus JFK in a normalized, non pandemic environment. UA and DL are far smaller players in this market.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 960
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:41 am

Despite the two successful Asian partners CX and JL, AA never understood the US-Asian market. AA's B788 with 19J (saleable) configuration is absolute wrong aircrafts for premium heavy Asian market. The original configuration of 28J B788 (with 27 saleable seats) would have done marginally better. Especially on US-China market, there are two extreme groups of travellers: premium corporate+HNWI and cheapo group tours. AA's B788s are not designed to meet the different needs of the two groups.

AA's reputation in Asia is bad, its point of sale in Asia is lacking, and its aircrafts did not get the premium mix right, it is doomed however AA tries.
 
MLIAA
Posts: 274
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:35 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
jplatts wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
The DFW-Asia routes were for the most part, performing. The LAX-Asia stuff was not. ORD-NRT/PEK/PVG were cut long before the pandemic. Yes, AA has struggled in Asia.


AA does not need to operate ORD-TYO nonstop service on its own metal with AA's partner JL already serving TYO nonstop from ORD along with AA being able to connect passengers onto JL's ORD-TYO nonstop flights from other Eastern U.S. destinations.

While AA hasn't yet started SEA-PVG nonstop service due to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA has plans to serve PVG nonstop from SEA due to the AA-AS partnership along with the connecting feed that AA would be getting onto SEA-PVG from AS flights to SEA and AA CLT/ORD/LAX/MIA/PHL/PHX-SEA flights.

AA's partner JL also offers connections to PEK, SHA, and PVG from ORD and LAX through TYO.


No one was arguing that AA needed to operate ORD-TYO butt he fact that that AA could not make the route work, even with a 787-8 illustrates the challenges AA has had with TPAC. The role of ORD in the AA network is very different now than it was pre-merger, but it remains a large one and yes, obviously, JL serves the market but still...

AA successfully moved LAX-PVG to SEA, but hasn't started the route yet, because of the pandemic, of course. Obviously, AA will benefit from AS feed at SEA for this route, but it remains to be seen just how successful it will be regardless. Absent AS, AA wouldn't have a shot and I am not sure it will pull as much traffic from its US hubs through SEA to PVG when the route does get up an running as much as it will pull from AS's SEA hub.



I’d argue that intense competition is the primary reason for AA’s struggles in Asia. In ORD they competed with Asia-powerhouse United and its partners plus Hainan and China Eastern, and LAX was even more of a bloodbath.

SEA is probably their best option, yes the AA connecting traffic will be limited BUT AA will route anything east of the Rockies through DFW, where it has been successful. West of the Rockies AS has a pretty good network and can feed that traffic in SEA. There will still be competition from DL but Delta is not exactly an Asia powerhouse either.
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jfk777
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:59 pm

AA still flies LAX to Tokyo Haneda and Narita plus Sydney. To the PRC is always a challenge with the huge frequencies Air China and China Eastern have to LAX. Los Angeles is the biggest destination for many Asian airlines especially those from Korea & Taiwan.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:28 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Two AA changes at EZE:

* DFW-EZE, currently oparated 4x w with 77E goes daily on Aug.18, with a change of equipment to the 787-9
* MIA-EZE, currently operated daily with the 77W, gets a second daily frequency on Oct. 7, operated with the 787-8

AA should then be back to the usual 4 evening departures ex-EZE, a slight decrease from the southern 2020 summer, which also saw a 3rd daily MIA and a 3x w LAX nonstop.

Source: AA res system

Right now anything Oct 7 and beyond is more or less a placeholder but things appear to be normalizing but business travellers have to return to justify INTL expansion.


Not entirely. EZE is unique in that it depends a lot less on business travel to work than you think. At the height of the pandemic once the MIA-EZE route resumed, on a 77W no less, it was going out 95-100% full. Part of that of course was the limited number of flights, but the demand is pretty strong year-round and generates equal parts demand and POS from the EZE and US origin. AA also has some structural advantages in EZE in that it has a crew base and other operations there that allow it to capture some lower costs. While Argentina's boom and bust cycles impact demand, for AA it is pretty much a constant with DFW-MIA, 2 and up to 3 x daily MIA-EZE in peak season, plus JFK in a normalized, non pandemic environment. UA and DL are far smaller players in this market.

I looked at the bookings you are right the MIA-EZE flights are almost all 90% full some even oversold. Also I noticed some days currently have two 77Ws scheduled and they are both full. So barring some substantial lockdown it looks like more capacity will be needed to EZE. However the DFW-EZE bookings were closer 60-75% for June and July
 
dcajet
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:44 pm

JohanTally wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Right now anything Oct 7 and beyond is more or less a placeholder but things appear to be normalizing but business travellers have to return to justify INTL expansion.


Not entirely. EZE is unique in that it depends a lot less on business travel to work than you think. At the height of the pandemic once the MIA-EZE route resumed, on a 77W no less, it was going out 95-100% full. Part of that of course was the limited number of flights, but the demand is pretty strong year-round and generates equal parts demand and POS from the EZE and US origin. AA also has some structural advantages in EZE in that it has a crew base and other operations there that allow it to capture some lower costs. While Argentina's boom and bust cycles impact demand, for AA it is pretty much a constant with DFW-MIA, 2 and up to 3 x daily MIA-EZE in peak season, plus JFK in a normalized, non pandemic environment. UA and DL are far smaller players in this market.

I looked at the bookings you are right the MIA-EZE flights are almost all 90% full some even oversold. Also I noticed some days currently have two 77Ws scheduled and they are both full. So barring some substantial lockdown it looks like more capacity will be needed to EZE. However the DFW-EZE bookings were closer 60-75% for June and July


MIA-EZE has always been a money maker (same as EZE-MAD, the other top long haul route out of B.A), since the Pan Am and Braniff International days. Heck, PA used to fill a 747 every evening out of EZE (PA454) back in the 80s. There is no high/low season on the MIA route. It goes out full year round. JFK tends to be more reliant on the corporate side of the business.

Supposedly, or the so the rumor went, EZE, together with GRU and LHR, were the most profitable stations on AA´s international network.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
asuflyer
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:10 pm

Asian originating J pax are primarily used to flying airlines with much better onboard service, like KE, CX, JL and higher quality food and attention to detail as you stated AA does not really stand a chance nor does it have a great reputation in Japan or Korea. In China with CA, MU, CZ and HU, AA struggled on competing on price and with low yields pre-pandemic.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:46 am

MLIAA wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
jplatts wrote:

AA does not need to operate ORD-TYO nonstop service on its own metal with AA's partner JL already serving TYO nonstop from ORD along with AA being able to connect passengers onto JL's ORD-TYO nonstop flights from other Eastern U.S. destinations.

While AA hasn't yet started SEA-PVG nonstop service due to the COVID-19 pandemic, AA has plans to serve PVG nonstop from SEA due to the AA-AS partnership along with the connecting feed that AA would be getting onto SEA-PVG from AS flights to SEA and AA CLT/ORD/LAX/MIA/PHL/PHX-SEA flights.

AA's partner JL also offers connections to PEK, SHA, and PVG from ORD and LAX through TYO.


No one was arguing that AA needed to operate ORD-TYO butt he fact that that AA could not make the route work, even with a 787-8 illustrates the challenges AA has had with TPAC. The role of ORD in the AA network is very different now than it was pre-merger, but it remains a large one and yes, obviously, JL serves the market but still...

AA successfully moved LAX-PVG to SEA, but hasn't started the route yet, because of the pandemic, of course. Obviously, AA will benefit from AS feed at SEA for this route, but it remains to be seen just how successful it will be regardless. Absent AS, AA wouldn't have a shot and I am not sure it will pull as much traffic from its US hubs through SEA to PVG when the route does get up an running as much as it will pull from AS's SEA hub.



I’d argue that intense competition is the primary reason for AA’s struggles in Asia. In ORD they competed with Asia-powerhouse United and its partners plus Hainan and China Eastern, and LAX was even more of a bloodbath.

SEA is probably their best option, yes the AA connecting traffic will be limited BUT AA will route anything east of the Rockies through DFW, where it has been successful. West of the Rockies AS has a pretty good network and can feed that traffic in SEA. There will still be competition from DL but Delta is not exactly an Asia powerhouse either.


AA has not been able to make Asia work for decades. It's point-of-sale originating in Asia isn't great, even though it has strong partners in CX and JL. AA looked at Pan Am's TPAC route network in 1986 and opted to pass on buying it. Bob Crandall thought the network would be costly to operate and sustain and AA at the time, didn't have the fleet to make most of it work. It has tried several Japan routes outside of Tokyo once or twice from DFW, and they have not worked out. To China, AA has yet to develop much of a expanded partnership with China Southern, a move that was hindered (and continues to be) by the pandemic. JL is a strong partner but connections over TYO really aren't as valuable as they once were, as most of Asia's top business destinations are reached nonstop from somewhere in the US. AA arguably missed the boat on Asia, which, had they moved on it in 1986, would have landed them with a commanding presence similar to what they have in Latin America which emerged from 1990 onward with the acquisition of EA's route network to Latin America.

SEA is yes, their best option, and having AS as a partner in OW helps a lot. DL's TPAC route network is a distant second to UA's but has the legs of the old NW route network and sales strategy in the region.

The future of AA on TPAC will look something like this: DFW to China, Japan, Hong Kong, Seoul, and perhaps one additional Asian destination, SEA for PVG, HND, perhaps SIN, and who knows what will happen with BLR, LAX for Australia, New Zealand, and Japan.
 
Cboyle
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:32 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:10 pm

For the next NEA announcement (AA/B6), which routes do you anticipate being announced on the AA side?
 
Detroit313
Posts: 682
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:33 pm

Cboyle wrote:
For the next NEA announcement (AA/B6), which routes do you anticipate being announced on the AA side?


South Africa for sure.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2628
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:22 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Cboyle wrote:
For the next NEA announcement (AA/B6), which routes do you anticipate being announced on the AA side?


South Africa for sure.

Are AA’s 789s being upgraded to the same performance package that UA’s had to enable them to operate EWR-JNB? If not, I’m not sure if AA could profitability operate JFK-JNB with their current fleet. Now would be the perfect time to launch JFK-JNB IMO with SA’s future in limbo.

MIA might also be ideal to launch JNB. IIRC the South Florida area has the highest percentage of South African Americans in the US, although I’m not sure what the PDEW compares to NYC.
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chonetsao
Posts: 960
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:27 pm

Cboyle wrote:
For the next NEA announcement (AA/B6), which routes do you anticipate being announced on the AA side?


TBH, none at this moment.
 
dfwking
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:04 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Cboyle wrote:
For the next NEA announcement (AA/B6), which routes do you anticipate being announced on the AA side?


South Africa for sure.

Are AA’s 789s being upgraded to the same performance package that UA’s had to enable them to operate EWR-JNB? If not, I’m not sure if AA could profitability operate JFK-JNB with their current fleet. Now would be the perfect time to launch JFK-JNB IMO with SA’s future in limbo.

MIA might also be ideal to launch JNB. IIRC the South Florida area has the highest percentage of South African Americans in the US, although I’m not sure what the PDEW compares to NYC.



Just curious, what type of performance package does the UA 789s have. They have lower density, so perhaps the a/c is lighter?
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2628
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:19 pm

dfwking wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

South Africa for sure.

Are AA’s 789s being upgraded to the same performance package that UA’s had to enable them to operate EWR-JNB? If not, I’m not sure if AA could profitability operate JFK-JNB with their current fleet. Now would be the perfect time to launch JFK-JNB IMO with SA’s future in limbo.

MIA might also be ideal to launch JNB. IIRC the South Florida area has the highest percentage of South African Americans in the US, although I’m not sure what the PDEW compares to NYC.



Just curious, what type of performance package does the UA 789s have. They have lower density, so perhaps the a/c is lighter?

IIRC they implemented a software update that included an improved fuel management system and a moderate thrust bump. I think only certain 789s have them now (essentially a subfleet) but UA plans to implement the update on the rest of the fleet.
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Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1951
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:08 pm

Anyone know why EWR-PHX got cut after November? Is it a mistake? They just brought this route back in June.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3040
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:18 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Anyone know why EWR-PHX got cut after November? Is it a mistake? They just brought this route back in June.


Likely just hasn't been loaded, it was cut during COVID and so the carry-forward placeholder schedule doesn't have PHX-EWR in it.
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ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:22 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Cboyle wrote:
For the next NEA announcement (AA/B6), which routes do you anticipate being announced on the AA side?


South Africa for sure.

Are AA’s 789s being upgraded to the same performance package that UA’s had to enable them to operate EWR-JNB? If not, I’m not sure if AA could profitability operate JFK-JNB with their current fleet. Now would be the perfect time to launch JFK-JNB IMO with SA’s future in limbo.

MIA might also be ideal to launch JNB. IIRC the South Florida area has the highest percentage of South African Americans in the US, although I’m not sure what the PDEW compares to NYC.


Why? The NYC-JNB market probably can do with just one flight, and UA has it now that SAA has suspended its JFK-JNB route. Demand isn't likely to be all that strong. It's a long, thin route for AA, and likely not their focus. JFK is not a pilot or crew base for the 787 for AA. Commonality is key for AA at JFK, hence the 777 covering all long haul intercontinental missions.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:30 am

Is MIA-JNB/CPT doable with a 77W?
 
Sevensixtyseven
Posts: 267
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:28 am

USAirALB wrote:
dfwking wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Are AA’s 789s being upgraded to the same performance package that UA’s had to enable them to operate EWR-JNB? If not, I’m not sure if AA could profitability operate JFK-JNB with their current fleet. Now would be the perfect time to launch JFK-JNB IMO with SA’s future in limbo.

MIA might also be ideal to launch JNB. IIRC the South Florida area has the highest percentage of South African Americans in the US, although I’m not sure what the PDEW compares to NYC.



Just curious, what type of performance package does the UA 789s have. They have lower density, so perhaps the a/c is lighter?

IIRC they implemented a software update that included an improved fuel management system and a moderate thrust bump. I think only certain 789s have them now (essentially a subfleet) but UA plans to implement the update on the rest of the fleet.


All Polaris'd 789s *should* have the updates, and the non-Polaris fleet should get them as they get the new seats, per the UA 2020-2021 thread. It would be nice if AA did it for flexibility. UA has always tried to make the fleets more capable for flexibility instead of having to corral certain aircraft tails to certain places. For example, the whole 737 fleet is ETOPS. No chance to accidentally send a non-ETOPS bird to Hawaii (it's been done before), or send a non-sharklet A319 to TGU or some such (I don't think that's possible). It certainly shows in the differing management styles as well as the budget, some of the fleet decisions for uniformity are NOT cheap, so there's definitely a tradeoff to be made either way.
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BBDFlyer
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:44 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Anyone know what is going on with AA478.

Second night in a row it diverted to STL. Supposed to be PHX-PHL.


EDIT: apparently it’s a refueling stop due to weight issues. I get it’s been really hot in PHX but I would think an A321 should have plenty of range for PHX-PHL even with lower fuel. But obviously I don’t really know. Interesting.

High temps in PHX. Runway performance is the limitation and you can either reduce passengers or reduce fuel. Pick one. If the runway was longer, then you can take both.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4455
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:07 am

BBDFlyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Anyone know what is going on with AA478.

Second night in a row it diverted to STL. Supposed to be PHX-PHL.


EDIT: apparently it’s a refueling stop due to weight issues. I get it’s been really hot in PHX but I would think an A321 should have plenty of range for PHX-PHL even with lower fuel. But obviously I don’t really know. Interesting.

High temps in PHX. Runway performance is the limitation and you can either reduce passengers or reduce fuel. Pick one. If the runway was longer, then you can take both.


I just didn’t realize an A321 on a route that length would have any fuel issues. I figure it could take a fair bit less than full and be fine. Doesn’t seem all that long. But shows what I know.
 
BBDFlyer
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:48 am

Jshank83 wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

EDIT: apparently it’s a refueling stop due to weight issues. I get it’s been really hot in PHX but I would think an A321 should have plenty of range for PHX-PHL even with lower fuel. But obviously I don’t really know. Interesting.

High temps in PHX. Runway performance is the limitation and you can either reduce passengers or reduce fuel. Pick one. If the runway was longer, then you can take both.


I just didn’t realize an A321 on a route that length would have any fuel issues. I figure it could take a fair bit less than full and be fine. Doesn’t seem all that long. But shows what I know.

It can carry enough fuel, but with a full load of passengers and cargo, the high temperatures, and required fuel load (especially of alternate fuel is needed, and any extra fuel for navigating around storms), the plane can end up being too heavy due the length of the runway. The plane isn’t at its max weight, but the high temps require reduced thrust which requires a longer runway or reduction in weight. There’s still plenty of room in the tanks, but takeoff performance is limited by the temperature. I fly the 321 and it’s rarely an issue but it can happen in the summer, especially in LAS, DEN, and PHX.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25477
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:45 am

BBDFlyer wrote:
High temps in PHX. Runway performance is the limitation and you can either reduce passengers or reduce fuel. Pick one. If the runway was longer, then you can take both.


Runway length becomes meaningless as you start to run into the tire-speed limitations.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BBDFlyer
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:01 am

LAXintl wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
High temps in PHX. Runway performance is the limitation and you can either reduce passengers or reduce fuel. Pick one. If the runway was longer, then you can take both.


Runway length becomes meaningless as you start to run into the tire-speed limitations.

That too. You can also be limited by obstacle clearance. There are so many factors and non-pilots just think that “oh so weird that we made a fuel stop,” but there are a lot of factors to take into account.
 
DMPHL
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:16 am

BBDFlyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
High temps in PHX. Runway performance is the limitation and you can either reduce passengers or reduce fuel. Pick one. If the runway was longer, then you can take both.


I just didn’t realize an A321 on a route that length would have any fuel issues. I figure it could take a fair bit less than full and be fine. Doesn’t seem all that long. But shows what I know.

It can carry enough fuel, but with a full load of passengers and cargo, the high temperatures, and required fuel load (especially of alternate fuel is needed, and any extra fuel for navigating around storms), the plane can end up being too heavy due the length of the runway. The plane isn’t at its max weight, but the high temps require reduced thrust which requires a longer runway or reduction in weight. There’s still plenty of room in the tanks, but takeoff performance is limited by the temperature. I fly the 321 and it’s rarely an issue but it can happen in the summer, especially in LAS, DEN, and PHX.


Can you go into a little more detail about this? It comes up a lot w/r/t other routes, as well, including with altitude on DL's JNB-ATL, for instance. I understand it on a basic level, but there do seem to be a number of factors people bring into the discussion including combinations of MTOW (and what MTOW an aircraft is rated for), heat, altitude, runway length, engine ratings (e.g. can the engine be rated for an increased thrust on takeoff?) Is there anything that technically could be amended, but is not worth the $$ to actually do? Is rotation speed at that weight and heat just too high to be safe?

Maybe technically unlettered questions, but just curious, if you have a chance to explain, what technical things you can share on the performance limitations and how they play off of each other.
 
MaxTrimm
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:12 am

DMPHL wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

I just didn’t realize an A321 on a route that length would have any fuel issues. I figure it could take a fair bit less than full and be fine. Doesn’t seem all that long. But shows what I know.

It can carry enough fuel, but with a full load of passengers and cargo, the high temperatures, and required fuel load (especially of alternate fuel is needed, and any extra fuel for navigating around storms), the plane can end up being too heavy due the length of the runway. The plane isn’t at its max weight, but the high temps require reduced thrust which requires a longer runway or reduction in weight. There’s still plenty of room in the tanks, but takeoff performance is limited by the temperature. I fly the 321 and it’s rarely an issue but it can happen in the summer, especially in LAS, DEN, and PHX.


Can you go into a little more detail about this? It comes up a lot w/r/t other routes, as well, including with altitude on DL's JNB-ATL, for instance. I understand it on a basic level, but there do seem to be a number of factors people bring into the discussion including combinations of MTOW (and what MTOW an aircraft is rated for), heat, altitude, runway length, engine ratings (e.g. can the engine be rated for an increased thrust on takeoff?) Is there anything that technically could be amended, but is not worth the $$ to actually do? Is rotation speed at that weight and heat just too high to be safe?

Maybe technically unlettered questions, but just curious, if you have a chance to explain, what technical things you can share on the performance limitations and how they play off of each other.

I’m not an expert, but I do work and study in a flight school environment and I can tell you that it mostly boils down to this meteorology/aviation term called “density altitude,” which factors in altitude, temperature, and the air density into a figure. Oftentimes, especially in places like PHX, LAS, JNB, DEN, when you combine the thin air with higher altitude above sea level, the “density altitude” may be super high, at DEN I’ve seen it be like double the true altitude above sea level. As far as the airplane is concerned, if, per say, the density altitude is 10,000 feet, the airplanes engines need to produce enough thrust to get off the ground with the air density outside equal to as if you’re 10,000 feet above sea level. Every airplane has performance charts that factor in density altitude among many other things, and when things don’t fall within the “envelope,” it’s. no-go.

I would say density altitude is the single most important figure in calculating engine performance. I hope this somewhat answered your question.
 
DMPHL
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:30 pm

MaxTrimm wrote:
DMPHL wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
It can carry enough fuel, but with a full load of passengers and cargo, the high temperatures, and required fuel load (especially of alternate fuel is needed, and any extra fuel for navigating around storms), the plane can end up being too heavy due the length of the runway. The plane isn’t at its max weight, but the high temps require reduced thrust which requires a longer runway or reduction in weight. There’s still plenty of room in the tanks, but takeoff performance is limited by the temperature. I fly the 321 and it’s rarely an issue but it can happen in the summer, especially in LAS, DEN, and PHX.


Can you go into a little more detail about this? It comes up a lot w/r/t other routes, as well, including with altitude on DL's JNB-ATL, for instance. I understand it on a basic level, but there do seem to be a number of factors people bring into the discussion including combinations of MTOW (and what MTOW an aircraft is rated for), heat, altitude, runway length, engine ratings (e.g. can the engine be rated for an increased thrust on takeoff?) Is there anything that technically could be amended, but is not worth the $$ to actually do? Is rotation speed at that weight and heat just too high to be safe?

Maybe technically unlettered questions, but just curious, if you have a chance to explain, what technical things you can share on the performance limitations and how they play off of each other.

I’m not an expert, but I do work and study in a flight school environment and I can tell you that it mostly boils down to this meteorology/aviation term called “density altitude,” which factors in altitude, temperature, and the air density into a figure. Oftentimes, especially in places like PHX, LAS, JNB, DEN, when you combine the thin air with higher altitude above sea level, the “density altitude” may be super high, at DEN I’ve seen it be like double the true altitude above sea level. As far as the airplane is concerned, if, per say, the density altitude is 10,000 feet, the airplanes engines need to produce enough thrust to get off the ground with the air density outside equal to as if you’re 10,000 feet above sea level. Every airplane has performance charts that factor in density altitude among many other things, and when things don’t fall within the “envelope,” it’s. no-go.

I would say density altitude is the single most important figure in calculating engine performance. I hope this somewhat answered your question.


Definitely helpful. Thank you!
 
slowrambler
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:21 pm

I've noticed that recently there's 3x daily mainline DCA-JFK, which I haven't seen in... any time I can remember.
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1327
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:41 pm

slowrambler wrote:
I've noticed that recently there's 3x daily mainline DCA-JFK, which I haven't seen in... any time I can remember.

Just a bit ago there wasn’t ANYTHING between DCA-JFK. That’s big.
Nature is healing
-Andrés Juánez
 
dcajet
Posts: 5035
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:46 am

It´s almost back to business as usual for American Airlines down at EZE tonight, with 3 777s (1 77W and 2 77E) waiting for their assignments to fly back to MIA, DFW & JFK.

https://twitter.com/GDS_AA/status/1408594916972847108
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:53 pm

dcajet wrote:
It´s almost back to business as usual for American Airlines down at EZE tonight, with 3 777s (1 77W and 2 77E) waiting for their assignments to fly back to MIA, DFW & JFK.

https://twitter.com/GDS_AA/status/1408594916972847108


Nice to see this. Pre-pandemic, AA was up to 3 x daily at EZE in peak season from MIA. Going to take a while to build that back, but AA essentially owns US-Argentina.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:28 am

I know there have been a lot of international adds with the B6 partnership (JFK-DEL/SCL/ATH/TLV). What do you think could be the next add on the Alaska side of things (I know they have added SEA-LHR/BLR/PVG).
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:17 am

rjbesikof wrote:
I know there have been a lot of international adds with the B6 partnership (JFK-DEL/SCL/ATH/TLV). What do you think could be the next add on the Alaska side of things (I know they have added SEA-LHR/BLR/PVG).


Not a whole lot more right away. BLR is postponed. The places AA ideally wants to fly from SEA long haul are compromised by a number of factors including the pandemic and curtailed business travel. Down the road though, I could see AA add SIN, SYD, and perhaps HKG or better yet, TPE, but not for the next year or two.
 
Cboyle
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:32 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:25 pm

Has anyone heard anything as to either AA announcing a BOS-MCO flight or AA allowing you to REDEEM miles on B6?
 
Detroit313
Posts: 682
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:48 am

ORD - ATH and JFK - ATH leave full from the US on a daily basis. Full of passengers and cargo. It is like the pandemic never happened.

What makes it even crazier is that just 3 years ago both routes did not exist and now they are AA's best performing European routes.

Talk about a success story.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:41 am

Detroit313 wrote:
ORD - ATH and JFK - ATH leave full from the US on a daily basis. Full of passengers and cargo. It is like the pandemic never happened.

What makes it even crazier is that just 3 years ago both routes did not exist and now they are AA's best performing European routes.

Talk about a success story.


Greece was one of the first European countries to relax entry requirements, significantly ahead of the start of the summer travel season, and Pireaus, the port of Athens, is the only major port in Europe currently handling cruise ships. ORD-ATH launched in 2018 and had been a success from the start.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 682
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:39 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ORD - ATH and JFK - ATH leave full from the US on a daily basis. Full of passengers and cargo. It is like the pandemic never happened.

What makes it even crazier is that just 3 years ago both routes did not exist and now they are AA's best performing European routes.

Talk about a success story.


Greece was one of the first European countries to relax entry requirements, significantly ahead of the start of the summer travel season, and Pireaus, the port of Athens, is the only major port in Europe currently handling cruise ships. ORD-ATH launched in 2018 and had been a success from the start.


It launched in 2019.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:56 am

Detroit313 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ORD - ATH and JFK - ATH leave full from the US on a daily basis. Full of passengers and cargo. It is like the pandemic never happened.

What makes it even crazier is that just 3 years ago both routes did not exist and now they are AA's best performing European routes.

Talk about a success story.


Greece was one of the first European countries to relax entry requirements, significantly ahead of the start of the summer travel season, and Pireaus, the port of Athens, is the only major port in Europe currently handling cruise ships. ORD-ATH launched in 2018 and had been a success from the start.


It launched in 2019.


It was a typo.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:30 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Greece was one of the first European countries to relax entry requirements, significantly ahead of the start of the summer travel season, and Pireaus, the port of Athens, is the only major port in Europe currently handling cruise ships. ORD-ATH launched in 2018 and had been a success from the start.


It launched in 2019.


It was a typo.


Do you think AA will launch CLT or DFW-ATH to take on DL ATL-ATH?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4294
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:50 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

It launched in 2019.


It was a typo.


Do you think AA will launch CLT or DFW-ATH to take on DL ATL-ATH?


If AA were to add a fourth ATH route it would probably be from MIA. To top it off MIAATH might actually have some business traffic thanks to the cruise and shipping industries. It won't be this summer however.
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:51 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

It launched in 2019.


It was a typo.


Do you think AA will launch CLT or DFW-ATH to take on DL ATL-ATH?


LAX-ATH :stirthepot:
Leaving the forums. You may know where to find me.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4652
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:07 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

It launched in 2019.


It was a typo.


Do you think AA will launch CLT or DFW-ATH to take on DL ATL-ATH?


Doubt it. I think ORD, PHL, and JFK to ATH is all we'll get from AA for the time being. If a further ATH route were added, it would probably be DFW over CLT, but it would be a very long, thin route, clocking in at 12-13 hours.
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:10 pm

Ishrion wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

It was a typo.


Do you think AA will launch CLT or DFW-ATH to take on DL ATL-ATH?


LAX-ATH :stirthepot:


The largest market is indeed LAX by far. LAX-ATH had 70k pax both ways in 2019 and was the third busiest unserved route out of ATH, behind BOS (77k) and SYD (75k).
That being said, I don't see LAX-ATH happening anytime soon, given 1) it is a long route, 2) ATH is now very well served from the East Coast/ORD/ATL with loads of connection options, 3) LAX is not a transatlantic hub for any carrier (AA only flies LAX-LHR and I doubt ATH would be next on their list).

I think MIA-ATH is extremely unlikely. O&D is minuscule and MIA's transatlantic network largely relies on Latin American connections. ATH doesn't have a lot of ties/traffic with the region, unlike Spain/Italy/TLV (which AA flies to from MIA). The fact that both cities have large cruise ports doesn't mean there is traffic between them (the traffic is between the cruise port and its markets).

I would see DFW or CLT possible in the medium/long term, with the former probably more likely. DFW has AA's biggest transatlantic operation after PHL/JFK/ORD, it is a large population center with demand to Greece in its own right and it will serve Texas/the West which do not have a link to ATH currently. That being said, I would expect AA to launch BCN from DFW before ATH.

CLT less relevant in my view, especially now that DL reinstated ATL-ATH.

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