Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25539
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:13 pm

N is used for alliance fares, some promos, government and military fares.
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4555
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:05 am

AmericanAir88 wrote:
What is Fare Class "N"? I booked a trip and it seems I have never received this fare before. Also, on their 33 row 737-800, when does MCE end? Trying to avoid the missing window row. Currently in Row 11.



It appears Row 11 is the first row AFTER MCE and one row in front of the row without a window:

https://seatguru.com/airlines/American_Airlines/American_Airlines_Boeing_737_Max_8.php
 
BigPlaneGuy13
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:01 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:28 am

Hello all, was wondering if anyone could provide information on what domestic routes AA will be flying the 787 out of ORD this fall and winter. Will we see the 787 to LAX, PHX, LAS again? I know the usual suspects are PHL, MIA, HNL, and DFW.
 
QXorVX
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:45 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:49 am

AmericanAir88 wrote:
What is Fare Class "N"? I booked a trip and it seems I have never received this fare before. Also, on their 33 row 737-800, when does MCE end? Trying to avoid the missing window row. Currently in Row 11.


Even better than SeatGuru, you can literally see where the windows are placed:

https://www.aerolopa.com/aa-boeing-738k
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4555
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:16 am

BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
Hello all, was wondering if anyone could provide information on what domestic routes AA will be flying the 787 out of ORD this fall and winter. Will we see the 787 to LAX, PHX, LAS again? I know the usual suspects are PHL, MIA, HNL, and DFW.


Keep an eye on this page (widebody schedules):

https://www.aacargo.com/ship/schedules.html
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:21 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
jmc1975 wrote:
Surprised that nobody has mentioned AUS-XNA as a possibility.


After this past Saturday, no one from Austin wants to go to Northwest Arkansas ever again.

What happened this past Saturday?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4323
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:27 am

jmc1975 wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
jmc1975 wrote:
Surprised that nobody has mentioned AUS-XNA as a possibility.


After this past Saturday, no one from Austin wants to go to Northwest Arkansas ever again.

What happened this past Saturday?


Texas football lost very badly to Arkansas. UT is in Austin and UA is near XNA.
 
dfw88
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 pm

BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
Hello all, was wondering if anyone could provide information on what domestic routes AA will be flying the 787 out of ORD this fall and winter. Will we see the 787 to LAX, PHX, LAS again? I know the usual suspects are PHL, MIA, HNL, and DFW.


Through the end of February I see DFW, HNL, LAS, LAX, MIA, PHX, and SFO operating at different points.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6287
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:21 am

Midwestindy wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
These schedule will not stick. As soon as dot give guidance on slot usage requirements for November, the airlines will update based on that. I don't see how airlines will be required to use more than 80% of their slots. Bookings are way down in the northeast compared to July.


Slot waivers are very likely going to be extended and handed out. No one is using their full allocations and there's really no reason or incentive for others to make use of dormant ones. Bookings are declining across the board, and not just in the northeast. TATL services are going to see big cuts in mid-Fall through the winter, and not just on the US airlines, but across the board. NE to Florida also taking a hit as Florida is essentially a petri-dish of COVID at the moment.


The slot rules will need to return eventually, and it will be before travel in the Northeast returns to 80%+ of 2019.

Other airlines (NK) are begging for more access, so at some point it is unfair to continue to extend these waivers when other airlines could be providing service.

TATL is a whole other thing.

Positivity rates, case counts, & rt values are flat or falling based on US averages, so the worst of the transmission is behind us at this point.


Image
https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/regulat ... Notice.pdf
 
AmericanAir88
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:29 am

QXorVX wrote:
AmericanAir88 wrote:
What is Fare Class "N"? I booked a trip and it seems I have never received this fare before. Also, on their 33 row 737-800, when does MCE end? Trying to avoid the missing window row. Currently in Row 11.


Even better than SeatGuru, you can literally see where the windows are placed:

https://www.aerolopa.com/aa-boeing-738k


Thank you so much for this. I really needed this.

Now I can pick a great window on the return of AA's JFK-LAS
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:13 am

dfdubflyer wrote:
So on my recent flights on American I noticed the death of American Way magazine, but then today went to go look at the AA route map (was curious to see how JetSmart had changed connections in Chile) and saw that's been removed from the website. I hope we haven't seen the end of the route map!


Luckily, crankyflier has done the leg work for you ;)

https://crankyflier.com/2021/09/16/american-looks-to-gol-to-fill-in-the-hole/

Jetsmart isn't adding a lot right now, but they've got ambitious growth targets, and not just in Chile. Argentina and Peru as well, and we may see more countries being added.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1340
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:50 pm

How long has AA been running 772s on BOS-MIA? Is this going to continue throughout the fall and winter?
 
AmericanAir88
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:01 pm

Just about to receive Gold Status on AA. How does Gold Status carry over to Alaska Airlines? Do I get any benefits flying them like free checked bags?
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:36 pm

B752OS wrote:
How long has AA been running 772s on BOS-MIA? Is this going to continue throughout the fall and winter?


I believe the 772 was added on MIA-BOS early this summer. The frame is often used to create the BOS-LHR segment.
 
sagechan
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:55 am

AmericanAir88 wrote:
Just about to receive Gold Status on AA. How does Gold Status carry over to Alaska Airlines? Do I get any benefits flying them like free checked bags?

https://www.aa.com/i18n/aadvantage-prog ... rlines.jsp

Ruby column
 
cm642
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:36 am

When I did a dummy booking the week of Thanksgiving it was showing a 788 between PHX & DFW/ORD. Don't know if they changed it.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6287
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:03 pm

December schedule appears updated now, mostly continues November.
 
Seat1F
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:42 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:05 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
December schedule appears updated now, mostly continues November.

December schedule only updated through the 16th. Holiday schedule not yet finalized.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3054
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:17 am

Seat1F wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
December schedule appears updated now, mostly continues November.

December schedule only updated through the 16th. Holiday schedule not yet finalized.


Schedule prior to the 16th isn't final either, it hasn't even been released internally. The November schedule was carried forward for the most part but there will still be some shuffling for the first half of December as well.
 
MikeMidd2001
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:28 am

alasizon wrote:
Seat1F wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
December schedule appears updated now, mostly continues November.

December schedule only updated through the 16th. Holiday schedule not yet finalized.


Schedule prior to the 16th isn't final either, it hasn't even been released internally. The November schedule was carried forward for the most part but there will still be some shuffling for the first half of December as well.


Was about to book LHR to U.S. flight for mid-December, and seeing far fewer options on AA (and BA) than a couple weeks ago through BOS, PHL, ORD. Is that because things are moving around and not yet uploaded, or are some of those flights gone and not likely to return? Trying to decide whether to jump on something now or wait to see whether more is added as the timings aren't great.
 
seatback
Posts: 662
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:47 pm

What's AA doing in SFO? Looking at schedules, seems like AA has drastically reduced SFO flights (23 today). Is this the result of its partnership with AS? AA seems to be significantly smaller that Delta, which hasn't always been the case.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4851
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:09 pm

seatback wrote:
What's AA doing in SFO? Looking at schedules, seems like AA has drastically reduced SFO flights (23 today). Is this the result of its partnership with AS? AA seems to be significantly smaller that Delta, which hasn't always been the case.


Both AA and AS currently operate SFO-ORD/LAX/JFK/PHX nonstop service, and both AA and AS serve the DFW/DAL market nonstop from SFO with AA operating SFO-DFW nonstop service and AS operating SFO-DAL nonstop service.

While AS and VX have previously operated SFO-PHL nonstop service, AA and UA are currently the only airlines serving PHL nonstop from SFO. There is less of a need for AS to operate SFO-PHL nonstop service on its metal with the AA-AS partnership, and most of the AA FF's in the Northeast also prefer an AA-operated flight over an AS-operated flight.

While AA is currently the only airline serving CLT nonstop from SFO, I had mentioned the possibility of UA adding SFO-CLT nonstop service as CLT is a business destination for companies such as San Francisco-based Wells Fargo along with the corporate contracts and FF base that UA has in the San Francisco Bay Area.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:18 pm

seatback wrote:
What's AA doing in SFO? Looking at schedules, seems like AA has drastically reduced SFO flights (23 today). Is this the result of its partnership with AS? AA seems to be significantly smaller that Delta, which hasn't always been the case.


AA's network from SFO is pretty much what it always has been post-merger and that is DFW, ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, LAX, and PHX. What has changed is frequencies (JFK was 5 a day pre-pandemic, reduced to 1 at the height of COVID and now back to 3 on some days, 2 on others). There have been frequency cuts on other routes as well. It's not so much the AS partnership but rather the sustained drop in business demand that results in lower than normal frequencies. AA and B6 also code share on JFK and BOS flights to / from SFO. AS and AA don't overlap a whole lot at SFO.
 
aerace
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:50 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
seatback wrote:
What's AA doing in SFO? Looking at schedules, seems like AA has drastically reduced SFO flights (23 today). Is this the result of its partnership with AS? AA seems to be significantly smaller that Delta, which hasn't always been the case.


AA's network from SFO is pretty much what it always has been post-merger and that is DFW, ORD, MIA, JFK, CLT, LAX, and PHX. What has changed is frequencies (JFK was 5 a day pre-pandemic, reduced to 1 at the height of COVID and now back to 3 on some days, 2 on others). There have been frequency cuts on other routes as well. It's not so much the AS partnership but rather the sustained drop in business demand that results in lower than normal frequencies. AA and B6 also code share on JFK and BOS flights to / from SFO. AS and AA don't overlap a whole lot at SFO.

The main loss for us in PHL is the widebody that ran at least one of the SFO frequencies. Not sure when/if that will ever return. Those flights were jam packed with elite flyers.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25539
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:00 pm

Confirmation of what we knew.

AA rather be a bigger fish in a smaller SEA market, than a small fish in mega LAX market.

Why Seattle will replace LAX as American Airlines’ new Asian gateway
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... an-gateway

=

Vice President of Network Planning, that Seattle will become the carrier's "more predominant Asian gateway."

"LA has been a challenge to us to Asia for a number of years," Znotins reportedly explained. "We have faced profitability hurdles because every Asian carrier feels like they need to serve LA so even though we were serving Hong Kong and Beijing and Shanghai prior to the pandemic. They all underperformed for us because every other Asian carrier served those routes as well."

Znotins explained that one way American Airlines generates profits and differentiates itself is "through different schedules, being the only non-stop or one of a few non-stops, but in this case we were one of dozens of non-stops" offered by Asian carriers.

"And so for us what we've decided is to scale back LA widebody flying. Shanghai moves to Seattle… Beijing will focus more on Dallas. Hong Kong will focus more on Dallas as well. But then the Sydneys and the Heathrows will remain at LA because those markets aren't the Asian markets that are over-served."

Znotins said that while LAX would continue to see flights to Tokyo, Sydney and London, along with domestic transcontinental services and "a number of small [regional jet] routes out of LA to support the hub because LA as a domestic hub does very well for us, as an Asian hub it did not do very well for us."
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 756
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:21 pm

LAXintl wrote:
"LA has been a challenge to us to Asia for a number of years," Znotins reportedly explained. "We have faced profitability hurdles because every Asian carrier feels like they need to serve LA so even though we were serving Hong Kong and Beijing and Shanghai prior to the pandemic. They all underperformed for us because every other Asian carrier served those routes as well."
Znotins said that while LAX would continue to see flights to Tokyo, Sydney and London, along with domestic transcontinental services"[/i]


I find it interesting that US operators are so weak in the long haul arena out of the largest O&D airport and second-largest air market in the U.S.

AA-DL-UA basically focus on the same handful of routes out of LAX. Very different than what they manage do from NYC for example.
 
seatback
Posts: 662
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:32 pm

So, should they consider HKG, TPE, ICN, TPE and others to SEA? You can't say that you're going to serve HKG to Dallas, so you don't have to serve SEA. Two separate markets. It seems with AS' connectivity, there are boundless options.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:39 pm

UPlog wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
"LA has been a challenge to us to Asia for a number of years," Znotins reportedly explained. "We have faced profitability hurdles because every Asian carrier feels like they need to serve LA so even though we were serving Hong Kong and Beijing and Shanghai prior to the pandemic. They all underperformed for us because every other Asian carrier served those routes as well."
Znotins said that while LAX would continue to see flights to Tokyo, Sydney and London, along with domestic transcontinental services"[/i]


I find it interesting that US operators are so weak in the long haul arena out of the largest O&D airport and second-largest air market in the U.S.

AA-DL-UA basically focus on the same handful of routes out of LAX. Very different than what they manage do from NYC for example.


That's because LAX is hyper competitive and yields aren't always great. He says it in the press release. Asia is over served from LAX. AA has all but giving up on LAX-Asia. HKG won't return, PVG moving to SEA, leaving just HND, which is a partner hub.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:41 pm

seatback wrote:
So, should they consider HKG, TPE, ICN, TPE and others to SEA? You can't say that you're going to serve HKG to Dallas, so you don't have to serve SEA. Two separate markets. It seems with AS' connectivity, there are boundless options.


It depends. Not all of DL's TPAC out of SEA has worked out so well. The difference though is DL had to build its own feed. AA doesn't and has AS to rely on. Time will tell. TPAC is a long, long way from recovering meaningfully.
 
cm642
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:45 pm

Per the PHX Aviation Thread...

AA update from November
PHX-DFW gets 2 daily 789 and 1 daily 772
PHX-ORD gets 1 daily 788 and 1 daily 789
PHX-HNL gets 1 daily 789
PHX-OGG gets 1 daily 788
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:59 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
That's because LAX is hyper competitive and yields aren't always great. He says it in the press release. Asia is over served from LAX.


Same can be said for NYC-Europe. Marginal yields on many routes and lots of airlines fighting across the Atlantic. AA specifically has also been on the record saying its JFK longhaul has historically been loss-making as well.

Imo, AA sees a better shot in turning NYC and Atlantic flying around esp with the B6 JV in place than improving LAX-Asia.

As for SEA, it will be interesting to watch as its a far smaller market, and not exactly uncontested either. Competition from DL and Asian carriers exist at SEA as well.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:10 pm

janders wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
That's because LAX is hyper competitive and yields aren't always great. He says it in the press release. Asia is over served from LAX.


Same can be said for NYC-Europe. Marginal yields on many routes and lots of airlines fighting across the Atlantic. AA specifically has also been on the record saying its JFK longhaul has historically been loss-making as well.

Imo, AA sees a better shot in turning NYC and Atlantic flying around esp with the B6 JV in place than improving LAX-Asia.

As for SEA, it will be interesting to watch as its a far smaller market, and not exactly uncontested either. Competition from DL and Asian carriers exist at SEA as well.

Here are the most profitable routes for European to US for European carriers.

For example BA made $887 million in LHR to US routes

https://simpleflying.com/europe-us-most ... perations/
 
kavok
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:11 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
seatback wrote:
So, should they consider HKG, TPE, ICN, TPE and others to SEA? You can't say that you're going to serve HKG to Dallas, so you don't have to serve SEA. Two separate markets. It seems with AS' connectivity, there are boundless options.


It depends. Not all of DL's TPAC out of SEA has worked out so well. The difference though is DL had to build its own feed. AA doesn't and has AS to rely on. Time will tell. TPAC is a long, long way from recovering meaningfully.


When it comes to TPAC, too many it seems have illusions of grandeur that frankly, the market just isn’t there for.

PreCovid, DLs TPAC network from SEA was basically ICN/NRT/PEK/PVG. That’s it. That is all the market could provide. Maybe AA can match that with AS feed, but whether people want to admit it or not, that is just about the cap for them as well. Maybe AA can make Bangalore work, but India is always a risky market as well.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:34 pm

When does AA usually announce their seasonal winter ski market flying?
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:47 pm

janders wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
That's because LAX is hyper competitive and yields aren't always great. He says it in the press release. Asia is over served from LAX.


Same can be said for NYC-Europe. Marginal yields on many routes and lots of airlines fighting across the Atlantic. AA specifically has also been on the record saying its JFK longhaul has historically been loss-making as well.

Imo, AA sees a better shot in turning NYC and Atlantic flying around esp with the B6 JV in place than improving LAX-Asia.

As for SEA, it will be interesting to watch as its a far smaller market, and not exactly uncontested either. Competition from DL and Asian carriers exist at SEA as well.


I think yes and no. NYC-Europe is competitive, yes, and needs business travelers to sustain some routes in the winter, but it is a huge market, outside of a pandemic, generates a lot of demand, and the segments are shorter so a bit less costly and requires fewer frames. But you're right, AA has a better shot with B6 in partnership to make long haul out of JFK work.
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:37 pm

UPlog wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
"LA has been a challenge to us to Asia for a number of years," Znotins reportedly explained. "We have faced profitability hurdles because every Asian carrier feels like they need to serve LA so even though we were serving Hong Kong and Beijing and Shanghai prior to the pandemic. They all underperformed for us because every other Asian carrier served those routes as well."
Znotins said that while LAX would continue to see flights to Tokyo, Sydney and London, along with domestic transcontinental services"[/i]


I find it interesting that US operators are so weak in the long haul arena out of the largest O&D airport and second-largest air market in the U.S.

AA-DL-UA basically focus on the same handful of routes out of LAX. Very different than what they manage do from NYC for example.


Also, don't forget that pre-COVID Chinese carriers were dumping capacity into California, LAX particularly, and offering absurd fares. Roundtrip fares to Asia for $400-500 Economy or $1200 in Business were almost the norm. How are U.S. carriers supposed to compete with that?

Compare that to California-Australia, where U.S. carriers did quite well (relatively speaking).
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25539
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:16 pm

Yes, the competitive landscape to Asia can be brutal when prices and longer stage lengths are considered which beat-down yields.

While LA is the largest U.S. mainland to Asia market with several million+, or near million annual local O&D markets (TYO, ICN, TPE, HKG, PVG) they are largely owned by foreign carriers, which imo sadly has limited what the US3 have been able to sustain.

I also don't feel SEA-Asia will be a cake walk for AA by any means even with AS. As we've seen DL has tried and failed itself in several markets, while foreign carriers serving SEA are often the market price setters as well.
 
seatback
Posts: 662
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:23 pm

RE: Seattle....We also have to remember that AA faces less risk (i.e. little investment) in SEA than Delta did, giving AA more room to "play" around with routes that may or may not work. Delta has a lot to lose, AA not so much.

I wonder if we'll see AA reopen their crew base.
 
User avatar
Rookie87
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:07 pm

seatback wrote:
RE: Seattle....We also have to remember that AA faces less risk (i.e. little investment) in SEA than Delta did, giving AA more room to "play" around with routes that may or may not work. Delta has a lot to lose, AA not so much.

I wonder if we'll see AA reopen their crew base.


I couldn’t agree more with you there. DL had to build its own network and maintain it while AA can almost do whatever with much much less risk compared to DL. I am also curious about AA opening a crew base in SEA and what we can look forward to once Asia reopens fully
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:54 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
seatback wrote:
RE: Seattle....We also have to remember that AA faces less risk (i.e. little investment) in SEA than Delta did, giving AA more room to "play" around with routes that may or may not work. Delta has a lot to lose, AA not so much.

I wonder if we'll see AA reopen their crew base.


I couldn’t agree more with you there. DL had to build its own network and maintain it while AA can almost do whatever with much much less risk compared to DL. I am also curious about AA opening a crew base in SEA and what we can look forward to once Asia reopens fully


I tend to agree, but DL had the option to build SEA with AS as a partner, and we all know how that worked out. Did it increase competition in SEA, yes. So is AA's experiment in SEA as well.
 
Airlines0613
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:06 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:48 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
seatback wrote:
RE: Seattle....We also have to remember that AA faces less risk (i.e. little investment) in SEA than Delta did, giving AA more room to "play" around with routes that may or may not work. Delta has a lot to lose, AA not so much.

I wonder if we'll see AA reopen their crew base.


I couldn’t agree more with you there. DL had to build its own network and maintain it while AA can almost do whatever with much much less risk compared to DL. I am also curious about AA opening a crew base in SEA and what we can look forward to once Asia reopens fully


I tend to agree, but DL had the option to build SEA with AS as a partner, and we all know how that worked out. Did it increase competition in SEA, yes. So is AA's experiment in SEA as well.

Don't forget, DL is considerably weaker in the Pacific and internationally overall compared to AA. It's not a surprise DL couldn't make SEA work. The AA-AS partnership also has more cooperation than DL-AS ever had. AA and AS are considerably closer with reciprocal loyalty benefits, mile earning, alliance, and etc. With the closer cooperation between AA and AS along with AA having a stronger international presence, I give AA a higher chance of success in SEA compared to DL.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12171
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:51 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

I couldn’t agree more with you there. DL had to build its own network and maintain it while AA can almost do whatever with much much less risk compared to DL. I am also curious about AA opening a crew base in SEA and what we can look forward to once Asia reopens fully


I tend to agree, but DL had the option to build SEA with AS as a partner, and we all know how that worked out. Did it increase competition in SEA, yes. So is AA's experiment in SEA as well.

Don't forget, DL is considerably weaker in the Pacific and internationally overall compared to AA. It's not a surprise DL couldn't make SEA work. The AA-AS partnership also has more cooperation than DL-AS ever had. AA and AS are considerably closer with reciprocal loyalty benefits, mile earning, alliance, and etc. With the closer cooperation between AA and AS along with AA having a stronger international presence, I give AA a higher chance of success in SEA compared to DL.

I would not say DL is considerable weaker in the Pacific than AA. Outside of alliance partners DL is stronger than AA (thanks to legacy NW), and KE is about evenly matches with JL if not slightly stronger. Both DL and AA pale in comparison to UA in the region obviously.

DL began building SEA with AS partnership, but that ended when DL began competing more domestically. AA doesn’t have that ability due to gate constraints at SEA.
 
panamair
Posts: 4468
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:22 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
Don't forget, DL is considerably weaker in the Pacific and internationally overall compared to AA.


Huh? Pre-Covid, taking Q4 2019 figures, you do realize that Delta's pax revenues in the Pacific were just under 70% greater than AA's right? For Q4 2019, Delta had $591m in pax revenues in the Pacific compared to $349m for AA.

Overall internationally, again for Q4 2019, Delta's total international (Atlantic, Pacific, Latin) pax revenues were $2.6 billion (constituting 26% of DL'stotal pax revenues) compared to AA's $2.5 billion (about 24% of AA's total pax revenues)?
 
seatback
Posts: 662
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:20 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
seatback wrote:
RE: Seattle....We also have to remember that AA faces less risk (i.e. little investment) in SEA than Delta did, giving AA more room to "play" around with routes that may or may not work. Delta has a lot to lose, AA not so much.

I wonder if we'll see AA reopen their crew base.


I couldn’t agree more with you there. DL had to build its own network and maintain it while AA can almost do whatever with much much less risk compared to DL. I am also curious about AA opening a crew base in SEA and what we can look forward to once Asia reopens fully


I tend to agree, but DL had the option to build SEA with AS as a partner, and we all know how that worked out. Did it increase competition in SEA, yes. So is AA's experiment in SEA as well.


Yes, and I'm sure they're kicking themselves. I would imagine they would rather have a partnership with AS than try to make it on their own.
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:37 am

seatback wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

I couldn’t agree more with you there. DL had to build its own network and maintain it while AA can almost do whatever with much much less risk compared to DL. I am also curious about AA opening a crew base in SEA and what we can look forward to once Asia reopens fully


I tend to agree, but DL had the option to build SEA with AS as a partner, and we all know how that worked out. Did it increase competition in SEA, yes. So is AA's experiment in SEA as well.


Yes, and I'm sure they're kicking themselves. I would imagine they would rather have a partnership with AS than try to make it on their own.


Clearly not DL's smartest move. They picked a fight with the wrong minnow and found out greed has a price.

As a Oneworld loyalist, no complaints here though. It's the kick in the backside AS needed to make the switch to OW. More options in the US for us!

I do agree with other posters that AS should make building an Asian gateway out of SEA easier for AA than it is for DL.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4714
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:37 am

BangersAndMash wrote:
seatback wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

I tend to agree, but DL had the option to build SEA with AS as a partner, and we all know how that worked out. Did it increase competition in SEA, yes. So is AA's experiment in SEA as well.


Yes, and I'm sure they're kicking themselves. I would imagine they would rather have a partnership with AS than try to make it on their own.


Clearly not DL's smartest move. They picked a fight with the wrong minnow and found out greed has a price.

As a Oneworld loyalist, no complaints here though. It's the kick in the backside AS needed to make the switch to OW. More options in the US for us!

I do agree with other posters that AS should make building an Asian gateway out of SEA easier for AA than it is for DL.


AS had, for decades, loose code-sharing like relationships with DL and AA at SEA, similar and different to what they and other US airlines have had in the past with Hawaiian Airlines for inter-island connections from flights to the US mainland. DL smartly saw the limits to LAX's potential for them as a TPAC gateway, competing in a saturated market and on routes where all 3 US carriers served the same destinations (PVG, NRT, SYD) as the cornerstones of their Asia and Pacific route networks from there. DL saw potential in SEA as it is geographically some miles shorter to many destinations in Asia. Yes, they muscled in and the frenemy aspect of their relationship with AS began almost immediately once DL added more of its own flights to the market in order to capture consistent and stronger yield. AS was well entrenched in the market and with close to 300 daily departures at SEA, the big player there. DL had to build and invest its own money in airport infrastructure, something it has done at JFK and LAX as well to build those out as hubs. It remains to be seen if AA will find success in SEA. The BLR route is predicated on consistent demand from Microsoft and Amazon principally, and with the pandemic, the future of business travel is cloudy at best. DL hasn't found its TPAC operation at SEA to be either highly profitable or extremely successful. It has soldiered on but a handful of routes didn't work or require its smallest plane, the 767-300ER, to work, for a time. AS and AA together are formidable competitors. It will be interesting to see what happens. AA has no other option on the West Coast to build TPAC/Asia/South Asia service. LAX is too crowded and diluted. PHX absolutely won't work. SFO is well spoken for. PDX is too small a market.
 
kavok
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:58 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
seatback wrote:

Yes, and I'm sure they're kicking themselves. I would imagine they would rather have a partnership with AS than try to make it on their own.


Clearly not DL's smartest move. They picked a fight with the wrong minnow and found out greed has a price.

As a Oneworld loyalist, no complaints here though. It's the kick in the backside AS needed to make the switch to OW. More options in the US for us!

I do agree with other posters that AS should make building an Asian gateway out of SEA easier for AA than it is for DL.


AS had, for decades, loose code-sharing like relationships with DL and AA at SEA, similar and different to what they and other US airlines have had in the past with Hawaiian Airlines for inter-island connections from flights to the US mainland. DL smartly saw the limits to LAX's potential for them as a TPAC gateway, competing in a saturated market and on routes where all 3 US carriers served the same destinations (PVG, NRT, SYD) as the cornerstones of their Asia and Pacific route networks from there. DL saw potential in SEA as it is geographically some miles shorter to many destinations in Asia. Yes, they muscled in and the frenemy aspect of their relationship with AS began almost immediately once DL added more of its own flights to the market in order to capture consistent and stronger yield. AS was well entrenched in the market and with close to 300 daily departures at SEA, the big player there. DL had to build and invest its own money in airport infrastructure, something it has done at JFK and LAX as well to build those out as hubs. It remains to be seen if AA will find success in SEA. The BLR route is predicated on consistent demand from Microsoft and Amazon principally, and with the pandemic, the future of business travel is cloudy at best. DL hasn't found its TPAC operation at SEA to be either highly profitable or extremely successful. It has soldiered on but a handful of routes didn't work or require its smallest plane, the 767-300ER, to work, for a time. AS and AA together are formidable competitors. It will be interesting to see what happens. AA has no other option on the West Coast to build TPAC/Asia/South Asia service. LAX is too crowded and diluted. PHX absolutely won't work. SFO is well spoken for. PDX is too small a market.


Maybe… but when you consider the alternative, maybe Delta did make the best choice on the table.

The DOT/DOJ was never going to let AS+DL happen. AS was obviously not going to give up its AA partnership to be exclusive with DL. Thus DLs two options were to maintain the partnership they had with AS a d be weak in the PacNW, or develop their own hub.

Those were the two choices DL had. AS joining skyTeam and having and AS/DL exclusive partnering was never an option. AA was only presented that option after DL created their own SEA hub.

So I don’t think DL necessarily regrets what they did, or that it was a wrong choice. Even in hindsight, it may have still have been the best choice, when several not great options were on the table.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4606
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:03 pm

Just a reminder that this is an American Airlines network discussion thread. Please stay on topic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
seatback
Posts: 662
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:21 pm

Re: Austin growth...any chance we'll see ATL and DEN year round? I know there's lots of competition, but seem to me if you're working to capture the needs of your AUS based FF, you should be serving those two markets.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4851
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:19 pm

seatback wrote:
Re: Austin growth...any chance we'll see ATL and DEN year round? I know there's lots of competition, but seem to me if you're working to capture the needs of your AUS based FF, you should be serving those two markets.


WN does offer connections through ATL to some East Coast destinations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from AUS such as GSP, JAX, LGA, MYR, and RIC.

Most of the travelers in the ATL market who are traveling to AUS would prefer to do so on DL or WN who have hubs at ATL and who have a much bigger presence at ATL than AA, whereas AUS-ATL would be a point-to-point nonstop route for AA.

In addition to ATL-AUS nonstop service on DL and WN, NK also currently operates less-than-daily nonstop service to AUS from ATL, and NK is an ULCC who is capturing some of the leisure traffic to Greater Austin from ATL.

Most of the AA FF's in the AUS market with AAdvantage elite status who would avoid other airlines such as DL, WN, or UA whenever possible are willing to connect to ATL from AUS on AA.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos