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JohanTally
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:19 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
I hear SEA-BLR will be pushed back to MARCH end 2022, apparently due to issues related with B789 deliveries.


It wouldn't surprise if AA delays SEA-BLR again, but I don't think the 789 deliveries will be the reason why, though I can see AA spinning it as such. The market's likely just not there, yet and advance bookings are likely to not be good. AA likely has enough 789s to operate the route with so much of Asia pulled down and fairly limited TATL scheduled.

The bookings SEA-BLR are terrible but the first week scheduled in January BLR-SEA is almost completely sold out with a few already oversold. Definitely a great demand to the US from BLR. I wonder if they might try to operate initially in January because they should have slack in widebody fleet until more TATL flights pick back up in March.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:57 pm

JohanTally wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
I hear SEA-BLR will be pushed back to MARCH end 2022, apparently due to issues related with B789 deliveries.


It wouldn't surprise if AA delays SEA-BLR again, but I don't think the 789 deliveries will be the reason why, though I can see AA spinning it as such. The market's likely just not there, yet and advance bookings are likely to not be good. AA likely has enough 789s to operate the route with so much of Asia pulled down and fairly limited TATL scheduled.

The bookings SEA-BLR are terrible but the first week scheduled in January BLR-SEA is almost completely sold out with a few already oversold. Definitely a great demand to the US from BLR. I wonder if they might try to operate initially in January because they should have slack in widebody fleet until more TATL flights pick back up in March.


yeah, that's my thinking too. The 787 fleet isn't really stretched. The -8s and some 9s are deployed to Latin America, Caribbean, and domestic turns in relatively high numbers but TATL is essentially core and not much more until March, as of now.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:34 am

Anyone know how the JFK-SNA flight on the 321T is performing? JFK to SNA has been a tricky market for both AA and DL, who have tried it before and then dropped it. AA flew it in the 2000s on a 757 and DL flew it more recently, but not sure what the equipment type was.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:39 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Anyone know how the JFK-SNA flight on the 321T is performing? JFK to SNA has been a tricky market for both AA and DL, who have tried it before and then dropped it. AA flew it in the 2000s on a 757 and DL flew it more recently, but not sure what the equipment type was.

Loads are pretty full most of November just not quite selling enough of the flagship first class seats. Just about every flight has less than 20 seats available over the next few weeks.
 
sand26391
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:26 am

Confirmed, AA delays SEA-BLR (26/3/22) & DFW-TLV(05/03/22).
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:48 am

seatback wrote:
What would it take to pull some 767's out of storage to compensate for the delayed 787s? With the expected TA rebound, will AA fall further behind UA and DL?

What 767s?

AA sold all of them already and sold all the parts.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:50 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
seatback wrote:
What would it take to pull some 767's out of storage to compensate for the delayed 787s? With the expected TA rebound, will AA fall further behind UA and DL?


No chance on the 767. The remaining frames, except for the 2002 builds that were ordered to replace the high lease ex-TWA birds, were not in the best shape and part of the reason for the accelerated retirement aside from COVID and capacity cuts and fleet simplification, were mods that these frames likely would have required. Of the remaining 763s, many have been sold off, scrapped, or are likely no longer airworthy. The 76s had a lousy dispatch reliability track record at AA in their later years.

If there was a fleet type I could see come back on line, but it is such a long shot, are the A330-200s. They were pretty new, had the P/E cabin but not sure about type rating considerations with AA wide body fleet reduced to 777 and 787 only.

No current A330 pilots, no spare parts.

Not sure if they sold the simulators or removed them.

Be WAY to costly to try and bring them back to the fleet.
 
PITFlyer330
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 4:56 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:13 am

Did AA sell all a330s? Or just stored?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:16 am

PITFlyer330 wrote:
Did AA sell all a330s? Or just stored?

Permanently retired all parts sold off.

https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Ame ... d-a330.htm
 
BangersAndMash
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:39 am

AA delays DFW-TLV and SEA-BLR launch to March.

https://simpleflying.com/american-delays-blr-tlv/
 
MLIAA
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:53 pm

If AA needs more heavies (I’m not sure they do right now) there are plenty of 777s and even some 787s on the used market available for the taking. But their old 767s and 330s are not coming back.
 
rising
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:36 pm

asuflyer wrote:
alpine1989 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

No chance on the 767. The remaining frames, except for the 2002 builds that were ordered to replace the high lease ex-TWA birds, were not in the best shape and part of the reason for the accelerated retirement aside from COVID and capacity cuts and fleet simplification, were mods that these frames likely would have required. Of the remaining 763s, many have been sold off, scrapped, or are likely no longer airworthy. The 76s had a lousy dispatch reliability track record at AA in their later years.

If there was a fleet type I could see come back on line, but it is such a long shot, are the A330-200s. They were pretty new, had the P/E cabin but not sure about type rating considerations with AA wide body fleet reduced to 777 and 787 only.


What was the dispatch reliability of the B763 fleet as compared to the rest of the widebody fleet?

Alpine


In the latter years reliability with the 767's was abysmal. Things really went downhill I would say around 2013-2015, with long delays and frequent MX diversions crossing the Atlantic.They lost multiple corporate contracts out of NYC because the conditions of the 767's were so poor, so they were eventually moved to PHL, where the market was less competitive. They had major issues with engines, hydraulic failures, air conditioning packs, the cabins were decrepit, the list went on and on. Even the newer series of 767's had their fair share of issues too, and the aircraft that had the engine failure and fire at ORD was one of the 'newer' build 767. Around the same time the 757's started frequently going tech as well.



I think it's important to distinguish that while clearly investments were not made in product and service, the issues were not with safety maintenance, but more with reliability and product upgrades. No dispatcher, mechanic or pilot would sign off on the flight without proper maintenance. It's not like they are not investing in the hydraulic system or skipping a B check. These are required for the flight to be legal.

Indeed the in-flight amenities pretty awful. But just want to make sure someone didn't interpret they were flown in an unsafe condition. All part of the legally regulated maintenance program, and no doubt the pre-flight ETOPS check for the Atlantic crossings.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:10 pm

rising wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
alpine1989 wrote:

What was the dispatch reliability of the B763 fleet as compared to the rest of the widebody fleet?

Alpine


In the latter years reliability with the 767's was abysmal. Things really went downhill I would say around 2013-2015, with long delays and frequent MX diversions crossing the Atlantic.They lost multiple corporate contracts out of NYC because the conditions of the 767's were so poor, so they were eventually moved to PHL, where the market was less competitive. They had major issues with engines, hydraulic failures, air conditioning packs, the cabins were decrepit, the list went on and on. Even the newer series of 767's had their fair share of issues too, and the aircraft that had the engine failure and fire at ORD was one of the 'newer' build 767. Around the same time the 757's started frequently going tech as well.



I think it's important to distinguish that while clearly investments were not made in product and service, the issues were not with safety maintenance, but more with reliability and product upgrades. No dispatcher, mechanic or pilot would sign off on the flight without proper maintenance. It's not like they are not investing in the hydraulic system or skipping a B check. These are required for the flight to be legal.

Indeed the in-flight amenities pretty awful. But just want to make sure someone didn't interpret they were flown in an unsafe condition. All part of the legally regulated maintenance program, and no doubt the pre-flight ETOPS check for the Atlantic crossings.


No one was suggesting they were flying unsafe aircraft. The 763s were hangar queens, It wasn't uncommon for 763 flights to take long delays, and all that shows that they were in fact, operated safely, just not a reliable plane to keep a schedule.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5283
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:36 pm

Here are the Q2 2021 PDEW's of the top domestic destinations traveled to from DFW/DAL that aren't currently served nonstop from DFW or DAL:
ALB-DFW/DAL - 44
ROC-DFW/DAL - 41
PVD-DFW/DAL - 37
MFR-DFW/DAL - 24
GRB-DFW/DAL - 20
RDM-DFW/DAL - 18
AVP-DFW/DAL - 18
ROA-DFW/DAL - 17
CHO-DFW/DAL - 16
ATW-DFW/DAL - 16

Is AA likely to add nonstop service out of DFW to any of the above destinations in the near future? If so, which of the above destinations is AA likely to add nonstop service to out of DFW?
 
AC4500
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
Here are the Q2 2021 PDEW's of the top domestic destinations traveled to from DFW/DAL that aren't currently served nonstop from DFW or DAL:
ALB-DFW/DAL - 44
ROC-DFW/DAL - 41
PVD-DFW/DAL - 37
MFR-DFW/DAL - 24
GRB-DFW/DAL - 20
RDM-DFW/DAL - 18
AVP-DFW/DAL - 18
ROA-DFW/DAL - 17
CHO-DFW/DAL - 16
ATW-DFW/DAL - 16

Is AA likely to add nonstop service out of DFW to any of the above destinations in the near future? If so, which of the above destinations is AA likely to add nonstop service to out of DFW?

MFR and RDM both have federal grant money aimed at starting service to DFW. However, with a massive connecting hub like DFW, you really can't go off of PDEW numbers to justify starting (or not starting) a route.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:17 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
I hear SEA-BLR will be pushed back to MARCH end 2022, apparently due to issues related with B789 deliveries.


It wouldn't surprise if AA delays SEA-BLR again, but I don't think the 789 deliveries will be the reason why, though I can see AA spinning it as such. The market's likely just not there, yet and advance bookings are likely to not be good. AA likely has enough 789s to operate the route with so much of Asia pulled down and fairly limited TATL scheduled.


Other than this being a cute exotic destination for AA to run, the chances of this flight being successful long term is close to zero. AI only runs SFO-BLR twice a week with a much lower cost structure than AA, and UA is jumping into the BLR frenzy from SFO too.

I’m not sure why AA management believes this route has a chance to be successful, especially given their historically poor performance to Asia.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:30 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
I hear SEA-BLR will be pushed back to MARCH end 2022, apparently due to issues related with B789 deliveries.


It wouldn't surprise if AA delays SEA-BLR again, but I don't think the 789 deliveries will be the reason why, though I can see AA spinning it as such. The market's likely just not there, yet and advance bookings are likely to not be good. AA likely has enough 789s to operate the route with so much of Asia pulled down and fairly limited TATL scheduled.


Other than this being a cute exotic destination for AA to run, the chances of this flight being successful long term is close to zero. AI only runs SFO-BLR twice a week with a much lower cost structure than AA, and UA is jumping into the BLR frenzy from SFO too.

I’m not sure why AA management believes this route has a chance to be successful, especially given their historically poor performance to Asia.


I wouldn't look at the success or failure prospects for SEA-BLR through the lens of AA's struggles to Asia. The India market is different and can be decoupled from Asia service. I don't see SEA-BLR succeeding. It's a lot of seats to fill on a daily service, catering to two corporate behemoths at a time where business travel remains muted. AA does have JFK-DEL launching this week (it was pushed back by 10 days), and there are rumors BOM is coming up. AA has served India before, and has a pretty good opportunity here (DEL BOM yes, BLR, unlikely), but it is a tricky market and benchmarking it against TPAC is not really the smart way to look at it. Very different markets, but yes, AA remains weak to Asia and likely that won't change much with the future, maybe 1 add from SEA, and the rest focused almost exclusively around DFW with some TYO service from LAX.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:04 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

It wouldn't surprise if AA delays SEA-BLR again, but I don't think the 789 deliveries will be the reason why, though I can see AA spinning it as such. The market's likely just not there, yet and advance bookings are likely to not be good. AA likely has enough 789s to operate the route with so much of Asia pulled down and fairly limited TATL scheduled.


Other than this being a cute exotic destination for AA to run, the chances of this flight being successful long term is close to zero. AI only runs SFO-BLR twice a week with a much lower cost structure than AA, and UA is jumping into the BLR frenzy from SFO too.

I’m not sure why AA management believes this route has a chance to be successful, especially given their historically poor performance to Asia.


I wouldn't look at the success or failure prospects for SEA-BLR through the lens of AA's struggles to Asia. The India market is different and can be decoupled from Asia service. I don't see SEA-BLR succeeding. It's a lot of seats to fill on a daily service, catering to two corporate behemoths at a time where business travel remains muted. AA does have JFK-DEL launching this week (it was pushed back by 10 days), and there are rumors BOM is coming up. AA has served India before, and has a pretty good opportunity here (DEL BOM yes, BLR, unlikely), but it is a tricky market and benchmarking it against TPAC is not really the smart way to look at it. Very different markets, but yes, AA remains weak to Asia and likely that won't change much with the future, maybe 1 add from SEA, and the rest focused almost exclusively around DFW with some TYO service from LAX.


Whether we bucket India with the rest of Asia or not, it struggles from the same issues which was why I bundled them together…….competitors with lower cost structures, low yielding market, long distance route which translates to higher costs, low brand recognition, and extremely expensive overflying rights (Russia / China). The corporate contracts are great supplements, but there are just too many headwinds to make this route profitable.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:33 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
I hear SEA-BLR will be pushed back to MARCH end 2022, apparently due to issues related with B789 deliveries.


It wouldn't surprise if AA delays SEA-BLR again, but I don't think the 789 deliveries will be the reason why, though I can see AA spinning it as such. The market's likely just not there, yet and advance bookings are likely to not be good. AA likely has enough 789s to operate the route with so much of Asia pulled down and fairly limited TATL scheduled.


Other than this being a cute exotic destination for AA to run, the chances of this flight being successful long term is close to zero. AI only runs SFO-BLR twice a week with a much lower cost structure than AA, and UA is jumping into the BLR frenzy from SFO too.

I’m not sure why AA management believes this route has a chance to be successful, especially given their historically poor performance to Asia.

Maybe because they have whole Departments who’s job it is to analyze, market etc the routes.

It’s not a “cute and exotic” destination. It’s a business market. They aren’t starting the flight cause of leisure demand.

Bangalore, officially known as Bengaluru, is the heart of India’s IT and technology sector, and this new nonstop flight will be Seattle’s longest route in distance. It will further cement the deep ties between two of the world’s major hi-tech centers. Popularly known as the Garden City for its lush greenery and pleasant climate, Bangalore is India’s third-largest city, with a population of over 10 million. Despite the enormous cultural and economic ties between the United States and India, there are relatively few nonstop flights connecting the two markets. ”

https://www.portseattle.org/news/americ ... stop-india
 
x1234
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:42 pm

There is a huge difference between East Asia and South Asia markets from the USA. East Asia/SE Asia carriers (CX/JL/NH/KE/MU/CA/CZ/BR/CI/SQ/TG/MH) have decent inflight products and are relatively clean. Contrast this with pretty much only Air India as your competition in South Asia which has cleanliness issues and every Indian I know avoids AI like the plague. This is why for India the ME3 and EU3 have so much market-share. Also East Asia/SE Asia is more developed and with higher income carriers can charge near Western level fares compensating for the long TPAC sectors. As far as I know the South Asian market is still more price conscious than East and SE Asia.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:47 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:

Other than this being a cute exotic destination for AA to run, the chances of this flight being successful long term is close to zero. AI only runs SFO-BLR twice a week with a much lower cost structure than AA, and UA is jumping into the BLR frenzy from SFO too.

I’m not sure why AA management believes this route has a chance to be successful, especially given their historically poor performance to Asia.


I wouldn't look at the success or failure prospects for SEA-BLR through the lens of AA's struggles to Asia. The India market is different and can be decoupled from Asia service. I don't see SEA-BLR succeeding. It's a lot of seats to fill on a daily service, catering to two corporate behemoths at a time where business travel remains muted. AA does have JFK-DEL launching this week (it was pushed back by 10 days), and there are rumors BOM is coming up. AA has served India before, and has a pretty good opportunity here (DEL BOM yes, BLR, unlikely), but it is a tricky market and benchmarking it against TPAC is not really the smart way to look at it. Very different markets, but yes, AA remains weak to Asia and likely that won't change much with the future, maybe 1 add from SEA, and the rest focused almost exclusively around DFW with some TYO service from LAX.


Whether we bucket India with the rest of Asia or not, it struggles from the same issues which was why I bundled them together…….competitors with lower cost structures, low yielding market, long distance route which translates to higher costs, low brand recognition, and extremely expensive overflying rights (Russia / China). The corporate contracts are great supplements, but there are just too many headwinds to make this route profitable.


Respectfully disagree. US-South Asia and US-Asia are two very different markets with completely different competitive dynamics. The ME3 and to some extent TK, have a very large chunk of the transit market into India from North America, different cost structures, not all of which are necessarily lower, but at the end of the day, these aren't nonstop routes. I'm not sure SEA-BLR is a truly viable route, but I also don't think AA embarked on planning and eventually launching it based of a whim. They have done some homework. SEA-BLR has headwinds, for sure, but US-India and American's efforts to re-enter it, again, including DEL and presumably BOM, can't be compared and viewed the same way as US-China, or all US-Asia for that matter.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:00 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

I wouldn't look at the success or failure prospects for SEA-BLR through the lens of AA's struggles to Asia. The India market is different and can be decoupled from Asia service. I don't see SEA-BLR succeeding. It's a lot of seats to fill on a daily service, catering to two corporate behemoths at a time where business travel remains muted. AA does have JFK-DEL launching this week (it was pushed back by 10 days), and there are rumors BOM is coming up. AA has served India before, and has a pretty good opportunity here (DEL BOM yes, BLR, unlikely), but it is a tricky market and benchmarking it against TPAC is not really the smart way to look at it. Very different markets, but yes, AA remains weak to Asia and likely that won't change much with the future, maybe 1 add from SEA, and the rest focused almost exclusively around DFW with some TYO service from LAX.


Whether we bucket India with the rest of Asia or not, it struggles from the same issues which was why I bundled them together…….competitors with lower cost structures, low yielding market, long distance route which translates to higher costs, low brand recognition, and extremely expensive overflying rights (Russia / China). The corporate contracts are great supplements, but there are just too many headwinds to make this route profitable.


Respectfully disagree. US-South Asia and US-Asia are two very different markets with completely different competitive dynamics. The ME3 and to some extent TK, have a very large chunk of the transit market into India from North America, different cost structures, not all of which are necessarily lower, but at the end of the day, these aren't nonstop routes. I'm not sure SEA-BLR is a truly viable route, but I also don't think AA embarked on planning and eventually launching it based of a whim. They have done some homework. SEA-BLR has headwinds, for sure, but US-India and American's efforts to re-enter it, again, including DEL and presumably BOM, can't be compared and viewed the same way as US-China, or all US-Asia for that matter.


AA also did homework on ORD-DEL, LAX-China, and other routes which proved highly unprofitable. And while the markets themselves are different, the characteristics are very similar. The fact that other carriers fly the route with connecting services illustrates that there will be cheaper options for customers. Or to say it differently, AA will need to charge a premium for the nonstop route to be profitable. Given their history and inability to secure premiums, highly doubt this route works long term.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:07 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Maybe because they have whole Departments who’s job it is to analyze, market etc the routes.


And have you seen this department's success rate on flights to Asia? Hint....its not good


Boof02671 wrote:
It’s not a “cute and exotic” destination. It’s a business market. They aren’t starting the flight cause of leisure demand.


Who said cute and exotic only means leisure? That is a definition you came up with.
 
onwFan
Posts: 734
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:08 am

MrPeanut wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:

Whether we bucket India with the rest of Asia or not, it struggles from the same issues which was why I bundled them together…….competitors with lower cost structures, low yielding market, long distance route which translates to higher costs, low brand recognition, and extremely expensive overflying rights (Russia / China). The corporate contracts are great supplements, but there are just too many headwinds to make this route profitable.


Respectfully disagree. US-South Asia and US-Asia are two very different markets with completely different competitive dynamics. The ME3 and to some extent TK, have a very large chunk of the transit market into India from North America, different cost structures, not all of which are necessarily lower, but at the end of the day, these aren't nonstop routes. I'm not sure SEA-BLR is a truly viable route, but I also don't think AA embarked on planning and eventually launching it based of a whim. They have done some homework. SEA-BLR has headwinds, for sure, but US-India and American's efforts to re-enter it, again, including DEL and presumably BOM, can't be compared and viewed the same way as US-China, or all US-Asia for that matter.


AA also did homework on ORD-DEL, LAX-China, and other routes which proved highly unprofitable. And while the markets themselves are different, the characteristics are very similar. The fact that other carriers fly the route with connecting services illustrates that there will be cheaper options for customers. Or to say it differently, AA will need to charge a premium for the nonstop route to be profitable. Given their history and inability to secure premiums, highly doubt this route works long term.

Doesn't make any sense. If one were to follow your logic, AA should not be flying any long haul route. What market does not have one-stop competition?
 
seatback
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:39 pm

I just noticed that AA is running 9 widebodies out of ICN today and pretty much all week. Is this mostly cargo?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:39 pm

seatback wrote:
I just noticed that AA is running 9 widebodies out of ICN today and pretty much all week. Is this mostly cargo?

What are the flight numbers? That will tell you.
 
seatback
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:10 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
seatback wrote:
I just noticed that AA is running 9 widebodies out of ICN today and pretty much all week. Is this mostly cargo?

What are the flight numbers? That will tell you.

A lot of them are 9XXX. I'm just surprised at the amount of cargo capacity that AA is running through there. My understanding is that these flights have to be staffed by flight attendants since cargo is being loaded into the passenger cabin. I may be wrong on that.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:23 pm

seatback wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
seatback wrote:
I just noticed that AA is running 9 widebodies out of ICN today and pretty much all week. Is this mostly cargo?

What are the flight numbers? That will tell you.

A lot of them are 9XXX. I'm just surprised at the amount of cargo capacity that AA is running through there. My understanding is that these flights have to be staffed by flight attendants since cargo is being loaded into the passenger cabin. I may be wrong on that.

If there is cargo in the passenger cabin a FA has to be onboard. 99xx can be cargo, ferries or charters.

Here you go:

Image
free foto hosting

AA November Cargo Schedule

https://www.aacargo.com/downloads/sched ... update.pdf
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 988
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:16 pm

Buried in AA's announcement about its new fare category is news that AA will exit LGA-BOS with B6 handling that market.
https://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2 ... fault.aspx

And with a retimed 2022 schedule in high-frequency markets such as from Boston (BOS) to Washington, D.C. (DCA) and New York (LGA) to DCA, the NEA will offer customers the most convenient service on key business routes.


Business customers can purchase a Blue Extra fare when flying on JetBlue high-frequency routes, including LGA to BOS, operated exclusively by JetBlue. Blue Extra conveniently offers same-day flight switches, Even More® Speed at select airports and early boarding, making business travel a breeze.
 
x1234
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:30 pm

There is massive cargo demand of electronics without the batteries out of Asia specifically NRT/HND, PVG and ICN. HKG is handled by CX Cargo within OneWorld. There is also connecting cargo traffic in NRT/HND from TPE, HKG, BKK, SIN, MNL and CGK.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:38 pm

elmothehobo wrote:
Buried in AA's announcement about its new fare category is news that AA will exit LGA-BOS with B6 handling that market.
https://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2 ... fault.aspx

And with a retimed 2022 schedule in high-frequency markets such as from Boston (BOS) to Washington, D.C. (DCA) and New York (LGA) to DCA, the NEA will offer customers the most convenient service on key business routes.


Business customers can purchase a Blue Extra fare when flying on JetBlue high-frequency routes, including LGA to BOS, operated exclusively by JetBlue. Blue Extra conveniently offers same-day flight switches, Even More® Speed at select airports and early boarding, making business travel a breeze.

It doesn’t say AA will end LGA-BOS. It just says the Blue will be on LGA-BOS?
 
jfk777
Posts: 7535
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:59 am

AA's new flight to New Delhi sounds great and if Mumbai happens that awesome. However currently fuel is expensive and a 777-300ER consumes lots for the 15 hour flight to India. Checking the Business Class price I was shocked to learn JFK to DEL was about $2,700, how does AA plan to make this work when every large European airline plus Emirates and Qatar compete in this market.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6651
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:27 am

Boof02671 wrote:
elmothehobo wrote:
Buried in AA's announcement about its new fare category is news that AA will exit LGA-BOS with B6 handling that market.
https://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2 ... fault.aspx

And with a retimed 2022 schedule in high-frequency markets such as from Boston (BOS) to Washington, D.C. (DCA) and New York (LGA) to DCA, the NEA will offer customers the most convenient service on key business routes.


Business customers can purchase a Blue Extra fare when flying on JetBlue high-frequency routes, including LGA to BOS, operated exclusively by JetBlue. Blue Extra conveniently offers same-day flight switches, Even More® Speed at select airports and early boarding, making business travel a breeze.

It doesn’t say AA will end LGA-BOS. It just says the Blue will be on LGA-BOS?



They are gone.

All JetBlue.

Shuttle branding done
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1384
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:27 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
elmothehobo wrote:
Buried in AA's announcement about its new fare category is news that AA will exit LGA-BOS with B6 handling that market.
https://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2 ... fault.aspx




It doesn’t say AA will end LGA-BOS. It just says the Blue will be on LGA-BOS?



They are gone.

All JetBlue.

Shuttle branding done

What the what…I get J might not have sold the best but dropping it completely is DUMB. I thought this was about appealing to corporate customers?
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1863
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:00 am

jfk777 wrote:
AA's new flight to New Delhi sounds great and if Mumbai happens that awesome. However currently fuel is expensive and a 777-300ER consumes lots for the 15 hour flight to India. Checking the Business Class price I was shocked to learn JFK to DEL was about $2,700, how does AA plan to make this work when every large European airline plus Emirates and Qatar compete in this market.


I don't get what you're asking? J fares to India are often available in that price range. Apparently JFK-DEL has seen strong bookings already, so AA definitely has a chance on this route.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6651
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:56 am

ahj2000 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
It doesn’t say AA will end LGA-BOS. It just says the Blue will be on LGA-BOS?



They are gone.

All JetBlue.

Shuttle branding done

What the what…I get J might not have sold the best but dropping it completely is DUMB. I thought this was about appealing to corporate customers?



They are outsourcing a larger chunk of LGA flying to B6.

B6 had around 16 flights per day at LGA. They are projected to grow to 60.

Those 40 plus slots are coming from AA flights, including the hourly shuttle.

B6 will run it 10 times per day. Initially from the MAT, but Terminal B next spring to facilitate connections.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:27 pm

jfk777 wrote:
AA's new flight to New Delhi sounds great and if Mumbai happens that awesome. However currently fuel is expensive and a 777-300ER consumes lots for the 15 hour flight to India. Checking the Business Class price I was shocked to learn JFK to DEL was about $2,700, how does AA plan to make this work when every large European airline plus Emirates and Qatar compete in this market.


AA shifted JFK-DEL to daily service and up gauged to the 77W on the back of strong bookings. The fares on US-India in business class are not what they are to Europe. AA has a decent chance of making this route work. AI is the only other operator on JFK-DEL, and not everyone's first choice. As to the ME3 competition, yes, that is a factor, the European carriers, far, far less so. Both involve a connection. AA has the advantage of a nonstop. There are rumors a BOM service is on the horizon.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:31 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


They are gone.

All JetBlue.

Shuttle branding done

What the what…I get J might not have sold the best but dropping it completely is DUMB. I thought this was about appealing to corporate customers?



They are outsourcing a larger chunk of LGA flying to B6.

B6 had around 16 flights per day at LGA. They are projected to grow to 60.

Those 40 plus slots are coming from AA flights, including the hourly shuttle.

B6 will run it 10 times per day. Initially from the MAT, but Terminal B next spring to facilitate connections.

They are still flying LGA-DCA-LGA. It just won’t be called the “Shuttle” anymore.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:35 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
What the what…I get J might not have sold the best but dropping it completely is DUMB. I thought this was about appealing to corporate customers?



They are outsourcing a larger chunk of LGA flying to B6.

B6 had around 16 flights per day at LGA. They are projected to grow to 60.

Those 40 plus slots are coming from AA flights, including the hourly shuttle.

B6 will run it 10 times per day. Initially from the MAT, but Terminal B next spring to facilitate connections.

They are still flying LGA-DCA-LGA. It just won’t be called the “Shuttle” anymore.


The "Shuttle" brand could and should be retired. Pricing and service have evolved substantially from what the shuttle was, and while flying between LGA and BOS still has some advantage over Amtrak in terms of length, the DCA service largely does not. AA no longer had a dedicated "shuttle" fleet serving either market, since the E190 was retired (BOS), and the A319's that largely fly the DCA service are mainline aircraft. It became, at this point, semantics.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 988
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:40 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
They are still flying LGA-DCA-LGA. It just won’t be called the “Shuttle” anymore.


The press release explicitly says that JetBlue will exclusively operate LGA-BOS. That means that AA-operated flights on that sector will be ending.
 
BBDFlyer
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:30 pm

seatback wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
seatback wrote:
I just noticed that AA is running 9 widebodies out of ICN today and pretty much all week. Is this mostly cargo?

What are the flight numbers? That will tell you.

A lot of them are 9XXX. I'm just surprised at the amount of cargo capacity that AA is running through there. My understanding is that these flights have to be staffed by flight attendants since cargo is being loaded into the passenger cabin. I may be wrong on that.

AA cargo only flights do not use flight attendants at this time. It is only belly cargo.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25739
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:45 pm

At today's Baird conference Robert Isom had the following chart of how traffic recovery is stacking up

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FD2BMvcWQA4 ... name=large
 
dcajet
Posts: 5191
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:48 am

Significant increase in frequencies and capacity to/fr Brazil for the Jan-March peak travel season

* GIG - MIA gets a second daily flight between 4FEB and 2MAR, 787-8
* GRU - DFW will see daily service between 4JAN and 3MAR, 787-9
* GRU - MIA gets a third daily flight between 5JAN and 26MAR, 787-8
 
jfk777
Posts: 7535
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:05 am

9w748capt wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
AA's new flight to New Delhi sounds great and if Mumbai happens that awesome. However currently fuel is expensive and a 777-300ER consumes lots for the 15 hour flight to India. Checking the Business Class price I was shocked to learn JFK to DEL was about $2,700, how does AA plan to make this work when every large European airline plus Emirates and Qatar compete in this market.


I don't get what you're asking? J fares to India are often available in that price range. Apparently JFK-DEL has seen strong bookings already, so AA definitely has a chance on this route.


Its a competitive market, how is AA going to make it work when their J class fares are lower then London which is much closer ?
 
Airlines0613
Posts: 237
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:06 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:19 am

jfk777 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
AA's new flight to New Delhi sounds great and if Mumbai happens that awesome. However currently fuel is expensive and a 777-300ER consumes lots for the 15 hour flight to India. Checking the Business Class price I was shocked to learn JFK to DEL was about $2,700, how does AA plan to make this work when every large European airline plus Emirates and Qatar compete in this market.


I don't get what you're asking? J fares to India are often available in that price range. Apparently JFK-DEL has seen strong bookings already, so AA definitely has a chance on this route.


Its a competitive market, how is AA going to make it work when their J class fares are lower then London which is much closer ?

That’s not how airlines work… I don’t think you understand airline profitability. All you have to know is that AA upgauged the flight because the bookings are strong and they will be making a nice profit from it.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1863
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:55 am

jfk777 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
AA's new flight to New Delhi sounds great and if Mumbai happens that awesome. However currently fuel is expensive and a 777-300ER consumes lots for the 15 hour flight to India. Checking the Business Class price I was shocked to learn JFK to DEL was about $2,700, how does AA plan to make this work when every large European airline plus Emirates and Qatar compete in this market.


I don't get what you're asking? J fares to India are often available in that price range. Apparently JFK-DEL has seen strong bookings already, so AA definitely has a chance on this route.


Its a competitive market, how is AA going to make it work when their J class fares are lower then London which is much closer ?


Really? NYC to India is a competitive market? No way! Literally no one has ever thought of that before!

London and India are completely different markets. Do you not understand that? Sub-$3K J fares to India aren't unusual at all. But AA is confident that they can get a slice of that pie, so why not?
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25739
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:08 pm

A map posted by AA to help visualize how its partnerships help densify its network

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FD2DvaaX0Ao ... ame=medium
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10426
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:26 pm

9w748capt wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

I don't get what you're asking? J fares to India are often available in that price range. Apparently JFK-DEL has seen strong bookings already, so AA definitely has a chance on this route.


Its a competitive market, how is AA going to make it work when their J class fares are lower then London which is much closer ?


Really? NYC to India is a competitive market? No way! Literally no one has ever thought of that before!

London and India are completely different markets. Do you not understand that? Sub-$3K J fares to India aren't unusual at all. But AA is confident that they can get a slice of that pie, so why not?


Upgauging JFK-DEL doesn't mean it's hitting target margins, or even that it's profitable at all -- it just means they can't think of a better place to use those aircraft, and the route is at least expected to cover variable costs (so they fly the frames instead of park them).
 
x1234
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:59 pm

Does AA have cargo contracts for the 77W on JFK-DEL or are they betting on as the 3rd airline on the route (AI, UA, AA) they will have a competitive advantage? I say really 2 airlines because every Indian I know stays away from AI due to cleanliness/service issues.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
jfk777 wrote:

Its a competitive market, how is AA going to make it work when their J class fares are lower then London which is much closer ?


Really? NYC to India is a competitive market? No way! Literally no one has ever thought of that before!

London and India are completely different markets. Do you not understand that? Sub-$3K J fares to India aren't unusual at all. But AA is confident that they can get a slice of that pie, so why not?


Upgauging JFK-DEL doesn't mean it's hitting target margins, or even that it's profitable at all -- it just means they can't think of a better place to use those aircraft, and the route is at least expected to cover variable costs (so they fly the frames instead of park them).


Yes and no. The route was up gauged from the 772 to the 77W and the frequency increased based on advance bookings and cargo demand. That was made public by the airline. You're 100% right that this is meaningless when it comes to hitting target margins and profitability, and is simply reactive for now, but the frames are available, it is a major market that could use some competition (out of JFK with only one other operator).

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