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seatback
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:19 pm

jplatts wrote:
American Airlines Group could merge MQ and PT into a single airline as
(a) both MQ and PT operate ERJ-145 regional jets,
(b) the ERJ-145 is the only regional jet model that PT currently operates, and
(c) merging MQ and PT into a single carrier would allow American Airlines Group to eliminate some of the management positions at its Envoy and Piedmont subsidiaries that would become unnecessary after an MQ-PT merger.

The competition concerns that would be there in the case of merging independent airlines (as would be the case in an AA-AS merger or an AA-B6 merger) would likely be absent in the case of an MQ-PT merger as
(a) the fares that AA would be charging for American Eagle flights after an MQ-PT merger would likely be similar to the fares that AA would be charging absent an MQ-PT merger,
(b) both MQ and PT already operating their flights under the American Eagle brand,
(c) a merged MQ-PT would still continue to operate flights under the American Eagle brand after an MQ-PT merger, and
(d) many of the destinations that are served by MQ or PT already having service on other airlines such as DL (incl. 9E/YX/OO flights operated under the DL Connection brand), UA (incl. ZW/C5/G7/YV/YX/OO flights operated under the UA Express brand), WN, or G4.

Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


Makes sense, but why not include Envoy? It can't be advantageous to operate separate wholly owned companies. Maybe unions/seniority issues are reasons??
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10467
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:34 pm

jplatts wrote:
Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


IMHO it would be easier to liquidate PT as E-145s go away, and hire at bottom of scale to fly 2-class RJs by Envoy, Republic, or SkyWest.
 
MLIAA
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:25 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


IMHO it would be easier to liquidate PT as E-145s go away, and hire at bottom of scale to fly 2-class RJs by Envoy, Republic, or SkyWest.


Unfortunately this makes the most sense to me. PT flies an old, obsolete airplane in a dense part of the country with a lot of choices in air travel. With AA shelving a lot of YX routes at LGA, I see these YX airplanes replacing PT 145s in PHL & CLT (and indirectly DCA).

It makes more sense to gradually wind down Piedmont and keep Envoy, less senior people at the surviving company means lower costs, and you still get rid of one management pool.
Last edited by MLIAA on Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MLIAA
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:25 pm

seatback wrote:
jplatts wrote:
American Airlines Group could merge MQ and PT into a single airline as
(a) both MQ and PT operate ERJ-145 regional jets,
(b) the ERJ-145 is the only regional jet model that PT currently operates, and
(c) merging MQ and PT into a single carrier would allow American Airlines Group to eliminate some of the management positions at its Envoy and Piedmont subsidiaries that would become unnecessary after an MQ-PT merger.

The competition concerns that would be there in the case of merging independent airlines (as would be the case in an AA-AS merger or an AA-B6 merger) would likely be absent in the case of an MQ-PT merger as
(a) the fares that AA would be charging for American Eagle flights after an MQ-PT merger would likely be similar to the fares that AA would be charging absent an MQ-PT merger,
(b) both MQ and PT already operating their flights under the American Eagle brand,
(c) a merged MQ-PT would still continue to operate flights under the American Eagle brand after an MQ-PT merger, and
(d) many of the destinations that are served by MQ or PT already having service on other airlines such as DL (incl. 9E/YX/OO flights operated under the DL Connection brand), UA (incl. ZW/C5/G7/YV/YX/OO flights operated under the UA Express brand), WN, or G4.

Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


Makes sense, but why not include Envoy? It can't be advantageous to operate separate wholly owned companies. Maybe unions/seniority issues are reasons??


MQ is Envoy
 
Zbogart757
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:35 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:32 pm

MLIAA wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


IMHO it would be easier to liquidate PT as E-145s go away, and hire at bottom of scale to fly 2-class RJs by Envoy, Republic, or SkyWest.


Unfortunately this makes the most sense to me. PT flies an old, obsolete airplane in a sense part of the country with a lot of choices in air travel. With AA shelving a lot of YX routes at LGA, I see these YX airplanes replacing PT 145s in PHL & CLT (and indirectly DCA).

It makes more sense to gradually wind down Piedmont and keep Envoy, less senior people at the surviving company means lower costs, and you still get rid of one management pool.

Hypothetical if YX where to replace PT in PHL or have the ERJ-145s be liquidated, terminal F in PHL would need a major overhaul. Since there’s 36 usable gates, only 11 are capable for a CRJ-900 and 20 for a CRJ-700.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:46 pm

jplatts wrote:
American Airlines Group could merge MQ and PT into a single airline as
(a) both MQ and PT operate ERJ-145 regional jets,
(b) the ERJ-145 is the only regional jet model that PT currently operates, and
(c) merging MQ and PT into a single carrier would allow American Airlines Group to eliminate some of the management positions at its Envoy and Piedmont subsidiaries that would become unnecessary after an MQ-PT merger.

The competition concerns that would be there in the case of merging independent airlines (as would be the case in an AA-AS merger or an AA-B6 merger) would likely be absent in the case of an MQ-PT merger as
(a) the fares that AA would be charging for American Eagle flights after an MQ-PT merger would likely be similar to the fares that AA would be charging absent an MQ-PT merger,
(b) both MQ and PT already operating their flights under the American Eagle brand,
(c) a merged MQ-PT would still continue to operate flights under the American Eagle brand after an MQ-PT merger, and
(d) many of the destinations that are served by MQ or PT already having service on other airlines such as DL (incl. 9E/YX/OO flights operated under the DL Connection brand), UA (incl. ZW/C5/G7/YV/YX/OO flights operated under the UA Express brand), WN, or G4.

Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


The entire point of why AA still maintains three separate wholly owned regional carriers is to whipsaw the workgroups against each other for lower costs and that won't work if they merge into fewer carriers. I see PT as the most vulnerable because 50-seat RJ flying is likely to simply disappear as the E145's age replaced my more E70/CR7 flying.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:55 am

MLIAA wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/american-airlines-india-market/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=echo&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0dARHnKy81mYOcRFntQZTHwqbDcG-TomkNnDjGx3YTAsuTLO6veHw6mrs#Echobox=1636964538

It appears that AA is happy with India bookings so far and is “interested” in flying to Mumbai.


Which would be longer, SEA-BOM or JFK-BOM
 
JohanTally
Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:19 am

rjbesikof wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/american-airlines-india-market/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=echo&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0dARHnKy81mYOcRFntQZTHwqbDcG-TomkNnDjGx3YTAsuTLO6veHw6mrs#Echobox=1636964538

It appears that AA is happy with India bookings so far and is “interested” in flying to Mumbai.


Which would be longer, SEA-BOM or JFK-BOM

JFK is 38nm further
 
FSDan
Posts: 3543
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:01 am

JohanTally wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/american-airlines-india-market/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=echo&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0dARHnKy81mYOcRFntQZTHwqbDcG-TomkNnDjGx3YTAsuTLO6veHw6mrs#Echobox=1636964538

It appears that AA is happy with India bookings so far and is “interested” in flying to Mumbai.


Which would be longer, SEA-BOM or JFK-BOM

JFK is 38nm further


JFK-BOM is also a much, much bigger market.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:47 pm

FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:

Which would be longer, SEA-BOM or JFK-BOM

JFK is 38nm further


JFK-BOM is also a much, much bigger market.

It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.
 
Qantas59
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:42 am

When was BDA last served from JFK? Didn't realize that this route no longer operates. Thanks for any replies.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:46 am

tphuang wrote:
This is a pretty good article on where AA sees its NYC situation.
https://viewfromthewing.com/how-america ... um=twitter

The New York moves now may be in the best interests of American over time.
There was an article yesterday stating that New York Subway ridership for October is only at 48% of 2019 pre-covid levels. Trains are full, but they are also running fewer than before. IMO, That is a very clear indicator of what is really going on economically in the city.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:56 am

usflyer msp wrote:
jplatts wrote:
American Airlines Group could merge MQ and PT into a single airline as
(a) both MQ and PT operate ERJ-145 regional jets,
(b) the ERJ-145 is the only regional jet model that PT currently operates, and
(c) merging MQ and PT into a single carrier would allow American Airlines Group to eliminate some of the management positions at its Envoy and Piedmont subsidiaries that would become unnecessary after an MQ-PT merger.

The competition concerns that would be there in the case of merging independent airlines (as would be the case in an AA-AS merger or an AA-B6 merger) would likely be absent in the case of an MQ-PT merger as
(a) the fares that AA would be charging for American Eagle flights after an MQ-PT merger would likely be similar to the fares that AA would be charging absent an MQ-PT merger,
(b) both MQ and PT already operating their flights under the American Eagle brand,
(c) a merged MQ-PT would still continue to operate flights under the American Eagle brand after an MQ-PT merger, and
(d) many of the destinations that are served by MQ or PT already having service on other airlines such as DL (incl. 9E/YX/OO flights operated under the DL Connection brand), UA (incl. ZW/C5/G7/YV/YX/OO flights operated under the UA Express brand), WN, or G4.

Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


The entire point of why AA still maintains three separate wholly owned regional carriers is to whipsaw the workgroups against each other for lower costs and that won't work if they merge into fewer carriers. I see PT as the most vulnerable because 50-seat RJ flying is likely to simply disappear as the E145's age replaced my more E70/CR7 flying.

On the other hand, I see it as the opposite. Piedmont has a very large branded ground operation as well as the 50 seaters. The Embraer’s also still have manufacturer’s support and parts availability, along with engines, and are the only planes that make sense in some markets.

What American seems to have stopped is the long-running practice of using 145’s to slot squat.

PSA looks to be the “Drawdown” airline in my opinion. The 700’s are getting old quickly, parts will get harder to find eventually without an MSP. Skywest, Republic, and Envoy all can duplicate PSA flying, all have ERJ’s on order. I believe they will draw PSA down as the aircraft age out, they will simply swap out 175/170’s until the economics of operating a smaller fleet say “ Shut it down”.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2767
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:05 am

Qantas59 wrote:
When was BDA last served from JFK? Didn't realize that this route no longer operates. Thanks for any replies.

They made a decision to consolidate all off-peak BDA service from NYC/PHL to operate ex CLT a couple of months back. Frankly I don't understand the decision as the O/D between CLT and BDA is essentially zero, and CLT has historically struggled to maintain nonstop BDA service during peak periods (it usually only operated 1-3x weekly during July/early August only). I believe it has operated since COVID, but I could be wrong.

FlyingElvii wrote:
PSA looks to be the “Drawdown” airline in my opinion. The 700’s are getting old quickly, parts will get harder to find eventually without an MSP. Skywest, Republic, and Envoy all can duplicate PSA flying, all have ERJ’s on order. I believe they will draw PSA down as the aircraft age out, they will simply swap out 175/170’s until the economics of operating a smaller fleet say “ Shut it down”.

The majority of the fleet (roughly 70 IIRC) is now CR9s which are all relatively new.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:07 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
jplatts wrote:
American Airlines Group could merge MQ and PT into a single airline as
(a) both MQ and PT operate ERJ-145 regional jets,
(b) the ERJ-145 is the only regional jet model that PT currently operates, and
(c) merging MQ and PT into a single carrier would allow American Airlines Group to eliminate some of the management positions at its Envoy and Piedmont subsidiaries that would become unnecessary after an MQ-PT merger.

The competition concerns that would be there in the case of merging independent airlines (as would be the case in an AA-AS merger or an AA-B6 merger) would likely be absent in the case of an MQ-PT merger as
(a) the fares that AA would be charging for American Eagle flights after an MQ-PT merger would likely be similar to the fares that AA would be charging absent an MQ-PT merger,
(b) both MQ and PT already operating their flights under the American Eagle brand,
(c) a merged MQ-PT would still continue to operate flights under the American Eagle brand after an MQ-PT merger, and
(d) many of the destinations that are served by MQ or PT already having service on other airlines such as DL (incl. 9E/YX/OO flights operated under the DL Connection brand), UA (incl. ZW/C5/G7/YV/YX/OO flights operated under the UA Express brand), WN, or G4.

Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


The entire point of why AA still maintains three separate wholly owned regional carriers is to whipsaw the workgroups against each other for lower costs and that won't work if they merge into fewer carriers. I see PT as the most vulnerable because 50-seat RJ flying is likely to simply disappear as the E145's age replaced my more E70/CR7 flying.

On the other hand, I see it as the opposite. Piedmont has a very large branded ground operation as well as the 50 seaters. The Embraer’s also still have manufacturer’s support and parts availability, along with engines, and are the only planes that make sense in some markets.

What American seems to have stopped is the long-running practice of using 145’s to slot squat.

PSA looks to be the “Drawdown” airline in my opinion. The 700’s are getting old quickly, parts will get harder to find eventually without an MSP. Skywest, Republic, and Envoy all can duplicate PSA flying, all have ERJ’s on order. I believe they will draw PSA down as the aircraft age out, they will simply swap out 175/170’s until the economics of operating a smaller fleet say “ Shut it down”.


There are so many CRJ series still flying (heck, PSA is still taking delivery of CR9's) that it will be decades before mx and spares support will become an issue. Look at how long DC-9's, F100's and L-1011's and Saab 340's continued to fly after the demise of their manufacturers.
 
acavpics
Posts: 632
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:08 pm

So I've been reading that BOM is likely next on the radar for AA when it comes to India routes. Does anyone want to guess what station it would most likely be from?
I would have guessed JFK, since they just had a pretty good start to the JFK-DEL route. But then JFK is also slot restricted.
Maybe PHL? Those are the two hubs that geographically make the most sense for a BOM route.
 
sagechan
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:49 pm

acavpics wrote:
So I've been reading that BOM is likely next on the radar for AA when it comes to India routes. Does anyone want to guess what station it would most likely be from?
I would have guessed JFK, since they just had a pretty good start to the JFK-DEL route. But then JFK is also slot restricted.
Maybe PHL? Those are the two hubs that geographically make the most sense for a BOM route.


I'd say almost definitely JFK, this is exactly what the NEA with B6 is supposed to push to fruition.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:09 pm

acavpics wrote:
So I've been reading that BOM is likely next on the radar for AA when it comes to India routes. Does anyone want to guess what station it would most likely be from?
I would have guessed JFK, since they just had a pretty good start to the JFK-DEL route. But then JFK is also slot restricted.
Maybe PHL? Those are the two hubs that geographically make the most sense for a BOM route.


Most likely JFK as a consequence of the B6 NEA. PHL would offer the feed, but the yield play will be at JFK and for operational simplicity, it makes sense for them to make JFK the gateway to BOM if that route is really on the horizon.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6872
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:49 pm

If they do BOM, it will definitely be from JFK. Still pretty risky to do 2 Indian routes from JFK. I think JFK-NRT will happen. Would be nice if they can get a HND slot. JNB would be a nice one to add also.
 
highvoltageeee
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:53 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:10 am

tphuang wrote:
If they do BOM, it will definitely be from JFK. Still pretty risky to do 2 Indian routes from JFK. I think JFK-NRT will happen. Would be nice if they can get a HND slot. JNB would be a nice one to add also.


United has been doing it from EWR and has some good yields right.
I was seeing the route taken by AA why is it different from united? Do these airlines have to take permission from russian airspace? If yes how much do they have to pay?
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:48 pm

highvoltageeee wrote:
tphuang wrote:
If they do BOM, it will definitely be from JFK. Still pretty risky to do 2 Indian routes from JFK. I think JFK-NRT will happen. Would be nice if they can get a HND slot. JNB would be a nice one to add also.


United has been doing it from EWR and has some good yields right.
I was seeing the route taken by AA why is it different from united? Do these airlines have to take permission from russian airspace? If yes how much do they have to pay?


Russia very recently (end of October 2021) approved continuity of US carriers overflying Russian airspace, so the permission is either already there or there is a deliberate avoidance of certain corridors that overfly or come close to the Ukraine and Afghanistan.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3543
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:31 pm

JohanTally wrote:
FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
JFK is 38nm further


JFK-BOM is also a much, much bigger market.

It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.


I don't believe IAD has ever had a nonstop to BOM (AI did fly to DEL pre-COVID)... Before the pandemic, the nonstops to BOM were AI on EWR-BOM and UA on EWR-BOM. I don't remember if DL got around to actually relaunching JFK-BOM, and same with AI, but both were planning it even if they hadn't actually resumed. But I don't think I ever recall a nonstop U.S.-BOM service that wasn't from the NYC area.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3543
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:39 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Qantas59 wrote:
When was BDA last served from JFK? Didn't realize that this route no longer operates. Thanks for any replies.

They made a decision to consolidate all off-peak BDA service from NYC/PHL to operate ex CLT a couple of months back. Frankly I don't understand the decision as the O/D between CLT and BDA is essentially zero, and CLT has historically struggled to maintain nonstop BDA service during peak periods (it usually only operated 1-3x weekly during July/early August only). I believe it has operated since COVID, but I could be wrong.


I'd guess a mix of connectivity and competition. CLT certainly can feed a lot more markets to BDA than PHL can, and AA still flies PHL-BDA nonstop in the summer for the O&D market (albeit less than daily, I think). NYC-BDA is a big market, but it has B6, DL, and UA (from EWR) all flying it.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:42 pm

Looks like JFK-CDG and JFK-MAD are back after a 3 week hiatus (JFK-BCN is gone again but it was only scheduled to operate for 2 weeks). Anyone know what the JFK Europe TATL portfolio is planned to be through to year end? JFK-LHR is 2 x daily 77W for now, up from 1 77W and 1 772.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1649
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:56 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
jplatts wrote:
American Airlines Group could merge MQ and PT into a single airline as
(a) both MQ and PT operate ERJ-145 regional jets,
(b) the ERJ-145 is the only regional jet model that PT currently operates, and
(c) merging MQ and PT into a single carrier would allow American Airlines Group to eliminate some of the management positions at its Envoy and Piedmont subsidiaries that would become unnecessary after an MQ-PT merger.

The competition concerns that would be there in the case of merging independent airlines (as would be the case in an AA-AS merger or an AA-B6 merger) would likely be absent in the case of an MQ-PT merger as
(a) the fares that AA would be charging for American Eagle flights after an MQ-PT merger would likely be similar to the fares that AA would be charging absent an MQ-PT merger,
(b) both MQ and PT already operating their flights under the American Eagle brand,
(c) a merged MQ-PT would still continue to operate flights under the American Eagle brand after an MQ-PT merger, and
(d) many of the destinations that are served by MQ or PT already having service on other airlines such as DL (incl. 9E/YX/OO flights operated under the DL Connection brand), UA (incl. ZW/C5/G7/YV/YX/OO flights operated under the UA Express brand), WN, or G4.

Is American Airlines Group likely to merge MQ and PT into a single airline?


The entire point of why AA still maintains three separate wholly owned regional carriers is to whipsaw the workgroups against each other for lower costs and that won't work if they merge into fewer carriers. I see PT as the most vulnerable because 50-seat RJ flying is likely to simply disappear as the E145's age replaced my more E70/CR7 flying.

Spot on, that's also why Envoy and Piedmont compete against each other for ground handling contracts.

As Envoy draws down their 145 fleet, they will likely be transferred to Piedmont as needed to maintain operations. Envoy still shows more active 145s than Piedmont on airfleets, and even if those numbers aren't current, that's still a lot of spares to draw out the flying another 15+years.
 
Delta28L
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:15 pm

FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
FSDan wrote:

JFK-BOM is also a much, much bigger market.

It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.


I don't believe IAD has ever had a nonstop to BOM (AI did fly to DEL pre-COVID)... Before the pandemic, the nonstops to BOM were AI on EWR-BOM and UA on EWR-BOM. I don't remember if DL got around to actually relaunching JFK-BOM, and same with AI, but both were planning it even if they hadn't actually resumed. But I don't think I ever recall a nonstop U.S.-BOM service that wasn't from the NYC area.


Delta ran ATL-BOM with a 777 a couple of years ago
 
portola2727
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:12 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:20 pm

Delta28L wrote:
FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.


I don't believe IAD has ever had a nonstop to BOM (AI did fly to DEL pre-COVID)... Before the pandemic, the nonstops to BOM were AI on EWR-BOM and UA on EWR-BOM. I don't remember if DL got around to actually relaunching JFK-BOM, and same with AI, but both were planning it even if they hadn't actually resumed. But I don't think I ever recall a nonstop U.S.-BOM service that wasn't from the NYC area.


Delta ran ATL-BOM with a 777 a couple of years ago

Delta did run JFK-BOM for a few months pre pandemic. Then the pandemic struck and the route died due to a lack of demand and the Delta 777 fleet getting retired.
 
lat41
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:12 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
tphuang wrote:
This is a pretty good article on where AA sees its NYC situation.
https://viewfromthewing.com/how-america ... um=twitter

The New York moves now may be in the best interests of American over time.
There was an article yesterday stating that New York Subway ridership for October is only at 48% of 2019 pre-covid levels. Trains are full, but they are also running fewer than before. IMO, That is a very clear indicator of what is really going on economically in the city.

Many still working from home at least part of the week. Still others have found alternate transport options rather than go butts to nuts with a subway car potentially full of pathology carrying strangers..No need to shovel dirt on Gotham yet.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:46 pm

lat41 wrote:
Many still working from home at least part of the week. Still others have found alternate transport options rather than go butts to nuts with a subway car potentially full of pathology carrying strangers..No need to shovel dirt on Gotham yet.

Planes get dirty too. Looking at all three US carriers that don't clean tray tables...
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:37 am

Lot of Intl route resumption in December:
JFK-GIG
MIA-MVD
PHL-ZRH/DUB
CLT-MUC
DFW-MAD
 
Chugach
Posts: 1418
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:18 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:56 am

It looks like AA is going 2x daily on DFW-ANC next summer. I noticed the extra flight today.

Nothing for FAI has been loaded yet.
 
voxkel
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:22 pm

FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
FSDan wrote:

JFK-BOM is also a much, much bigger market.

It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.


I don't believe IAD has ever had a nonstop to BOM (AI did fly to DEL pre-COVID)... Before the pandemic, the nonstops to BOM were AI on EWR-BOM and UA on EWR-BOM. I don't remember if DL got around to actually relaunching JFK-BOM, and same with AI, but both were planning it even if they hadn't actually resumed. But I don't think I ever recall a nonstop U.S.-BOM service that wasn't from the NYC area.


AI did JFK-BOM 2008-10 and again for like 3 months in 2019. The route was canned quickly. DL did the route 3 months in 2020 before COVID and it is anyone's guess when it is coming back.

During the Iran/Pakistan air closure of 2019 AI briefly switched DEL-IAD to BOM-IAD.

UA has been consistently serving BOM-EWR. AI restarted the route a couple weeks ago. I'm thinking it's going to be either ORD or SEA for the AA BOM flight; BOM-NJ is where most of the traffic is in the tri-state; all recent JFK attempts have failed.
 
voxkel
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:25 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
Lot of Intl route resumption in December:
JFK-GIG
MIA-MVD
PHL-ZRH/DUB
CLT-MUC
DFW-MAD


Is GIG going to be year round now?
 
FSDan
Posts: 3543
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:57 pm

Delta28L wrote:
FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.


I don't believe IAD has ever had a nonstop to BOM (AI did fly to DEL pre-COVID)... Before the pandemic, the nonstops to BOM were AI on EWR-BOM and UA on EWR-BOM. I don't remember if DL got around to actually relaunching JFK-BOM, and same with AI, but both were planning it even if they hadn't actually resumed. But I don't think I ever recall a nonstop U.S.-BOM service that wasn't from the NYC area.


Delta ran ATL-BOM with a 777 a couple of years ago


Good call! I forgot about that short-lived attempt (I believe it was in the late 2000s).
 
FSDan
Posts: 3543
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:07 pm

voxkel wrote:
FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.


I don't believe IAD has ever had a nonstop to BOM (AI did fly to DEL pre-COVID)... Before the pandemic, the nonstops to BOM were AI on EWR-BOM and UA on EWR-BOM. I don't remember if DL got around to actually relaunching JFK-BOM, and same with AI, but both were planning it even if they hadn't actually resumed. But I don't think I ever recall a nonstop U.S.-BOM service that wasn't from the NYC area.


During the Iran/Pakistan air closure of 2019 AI briefly switched DEL-IAD to BOM-IAD.


Interesting. I definitely missed that occurrence.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3543
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:09 pm

voxkel wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
Lot of Intl route resumption in December:
JFK-GIG
MIA-MVD
PHL-ZRH/DUB
CLT-MUC
DFW-MAD


Is GIG going to be year round now?


No. In the summer, the two frames that would be required to operate JFK-GIG can likely make a lot more money flying two routes to Europe.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:44 am

voxkel wrote:
FSDan wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
It is which is why the NYC market is the only direct service to BOM right now. I assume IAD will resume but I am not aware of the timeline.


I don't believe IAD has ever had a nonstop to BOM (AI did fly to DEL pre-COVID)... Before the pandemic, the nonstops to BOM were AI on EWR-BOM and UA on EWR-BOM. I don't remember if DL got around to actually relaunching JFK-BOM, and same with AI, but both were planning it even if they hadn't actually resumed. But I don't think I ever recall a nonstop U.S.-BOM service that wasn't from the NYC area.


AI did JFK-BOM 2008-10 and again for like 3 months in 2019. The route was canned quickly. DL did the route 3 months in 2020 before COVID and it is anyone's guess when it is coming back.

During the Iran/Pakistan air closure of 2019 AI briefly switched DEL-IAD to BOM-IAD.

UA has been consistently serving BOM-EWR. AI restarted the route a couple weeks ago. I'm thinking it's going to be either ORD or SEA for the AA BOM flight; BOM-NJ is where most of the traffic is in the tri-state; all recent JFK attempts have failed.


UA inherited EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL from CO when they merged.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:45 am

voxkel wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
Lot of Intl route resumption in December:
JFK-GIG
MIA-MVD
PHL-ZRH/DUB
CLT-MUC
DFW-MAD


Is GIG going to be year round now?


No, JFK-GIG was reinstated as a seasonal operation for the Northern Hemisphere winter. Believe it operates from December to March. It is a route that has a long history with AA. It was first launched in the 1990s, with a 767-200ER, returned as a year-round route a few years ago, initially with a 763 and then up gauged to the 772 before it was cut and re-instated as a seasonal flight.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5204
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:16 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
voxkel wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
Lot of Intl route resumption in December:
JFK-GIG
MIA-MVD
PHL-ZRH/DUB
CLT-MUC
DFW-MAD


Is GIG going to be year round now?


No, JFK-GIG was reinstated as a seasonal operation for the Northern Hemisphere winter. Believe it operates from December to March. It is a route that has a long history with AA. It was first launched in the 1990s, with a 767-200ER, returned as a year-round route a few years ago, initially with a 763 and then up gauged to the 772 before it was cut and re-instated as a seasonal flight.


Slightly off topic, but in the days before GRU and before every Brazilian wanted to visit the Mouse, New York was the premier destination from Brazil, with VARIG, Pan Am and Aerolineas Argentinas all competing to/from GIG. In the case of VARIG it was its most prestigious flight, RG800/1, IIRC.
 
voxkel
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:44 am

FSDan wrote:
voxkel wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
Lot of Intl route resumption in December:
JFK-GIG
MIA-MVD
PHL-ZRH/DUB
CLT-MUC
DFW-MAD


Is GIG going to be year round now?


No. In the summer, the two frames that would be required to operate JFK-GIG can likely make a lot more money flying two routes to Europe.


That’s one think I’m a bit interested about. GIG is 2hr ahead of JFK so doing the northbound flight in the day could work out, no? Something like 10a GIG to 630p JFK, and the flight is primarily O/D both ends. Or did a lot of people in fact connect at JFK?
 
n9801f
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:02 am

voxkel wrote:
That’s one think I’m a bit interested about. GIG is 2hr ahead of JFK so doing the northbound flight in the day could work out, no? Something like 10a GIG to 630p JFK, and the flight is primarily O/D both ends. Or did a lot of people in fact connect at JFK?

Not sure about GIG, but daylight flights have been flown in both directions on JFK-GRU by JJ and/or AA. These have the advantage of using one less plane, however past experience suggests the O&D prefers overnight timings in both directions.

One of the more creative attempts I saw was when AA flew a morning GRU-JFK that connected efficiently to an evening JFK-HND. This offered a very competitive elapsed time for GRU-TYO, a market with considerable O&D. (It seems a little counter-intuitive to me, but the great circle route for SAO-TYO passes near NYC.)
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:07 pm

dcajet wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
voxkel wrote:

Is GIG going to be year round now?


No, JFK-GIG was reinstated as a seasonal operation for the Northern Hemisphere winter. Believe it operates from December to March. It is a route that has a long history with AA. It was first launched in the 1990s, with a 767-200ER, returned as a year-round route a few years ago, initially with a 763 and then up gauged to the 772 before it was cut and re-instated as a seasonal flight.


Slightly off topic, but in the days before GRU and before every Brazilian wanted to visit the Mouse, New York was the premier destination from Brazil, with VARIG, Pan Am and Aerolineas Argentinas all competing to/from GIG. In the case of VARIG it was its most prestigious flight, RG800/1, IIRC.


Very true. GIG was, at one time, in the 1970s and 1980s, the larger market from New York to Brazil, over Sao Paulo.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:10 pm

n9801f wrote:
voxkel wrote:
That’s one think I’m a bit interested about. GIG is 2hr ahead of JFK so doing the northbound flight in the day could work out, no? Something like 10a GIG to 630p JFK, and the flight is primarily O/D both ends. Or did a lot of people in fact connect at JFK?

Not sure about GIG, but daylight flights have been flown in both directions on JFK-GRU by JJ and/or AA. These have the advantage of using one less plane, however past experience suggests the O&D prefers overnight timings in both directions.

One of the more creative attempts I saw was when AA flew a morning GRU-JFK that connected efficiently to an evening JFK-HND. This offered a very competitive elapsed time for GRU-TYO, a market with considerable O&D. (It seems a little counter-intuitive to me, but the great circle route for SAO-TYO passes near NYC.)


JL for several years operated a GRU-NRT service through JFK. I don't remember if JFK-GRU-JFK sector was a Fifth Freedom sector or required an itinerary originating in Japan or Brazil.

The AA JFK-HND service was a financial disaster. The scheduled departure and arrival times did not work with the business market it was chasing. This route operated when HND was initially opened up to US carriers on a very limited basis. It replaced a JFK-NRT route that had operated for several years.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:24 pm

voxkel wrote:
FSDan wrote:
voxkel wrote:

Is GIG going to be year round now?


No. In the summer, the two frames that would be required to operate JFK-GIG can likely make a lot more money flying two routes to Europe.


That’s one think I’m a bit interested about. GIG is 2hr ahead of JFK so doing the northbound flight in the day could work out, no? Something like 10a GIG to 630p JFK, and the flight is primarily O/D both ends. Or did a lot of people in fact connect at JFK?


This is the schedule that DL's currently suspended seasonal JFKGIG flight followed and it never did particularly well.

Departed New York - JFK at 5:55 p.m. and arrives in Rio de Janeiro - GIG at 6:45 a.m.

Departed Rio de Janeiro- GIG at 9:10 a.m. and arrives in New York - JFK at 4:10 p.m.

Daytime flights to/from deep SA might be more efficient for aircraft utilization but the yields tend to be poor. This is one of the reasons AA's forays into secondary markets like COR have fizzled - higher yielding pax would rather connect than take a daytime flight.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:53 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
voxkel wrote:
FSDan wrote:

No. In the summer, the two frames that would be required to operate JFK-GIG can likely make a lot more money flying two routes to Europe.


That’s one think I’m a bit interested about. GIG is 2hr ahead of JFK so doing the northbound flight in the day could work out, no? Something like 10a GIG to 630p JFK, and the flight is primarily O/D both ends. Or did a lot of people in fact connect at JFK?


This is the schedule that DL's currently suspended seasonal JFKGIG flight followed and it never did particularly well.

Departed New York - JFK at 5:55 p.m. and arrives in Rio de Janeiro - GIG at 6:45 a.m.

Departed Rio de Janeiro- GIG at 9:10 a.m. and arrives in New York - JFK at 4:10 p.m.

Daytime flights to/from deep SA might be more efficient for aircraft utilization but the yields tend to be poor. This is one of the reasons AA's forays into secondary markets like COR have fizzled - higher yielding pax would rather connect than take a daytime flight.


The sector stage length is long (anywhere from 8h30 to 10h30 and more, depending on the destination) and that is a long time to sit on a plane in daylight hours and never really worked for business travelers. A lot of the US carriers perform some maintenance on their parked jets in some deep South America destinations before the evening turn back to the US. AA certainly does this in GRU and EZE. EZE is a crew base for AA.
 
User avatar
prchan
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:16 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:58 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:

JL for several years operated a GRU-NRT service through JFK. I don't remember if JFK-GRU-JFK sector was a Fifth Freedom sector or required an itinerary originating in Japan or Brazil.


This sector was a 5th freedom
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:13 pm

I definitely understand why ORD or JFK would likely be the choice for AA to BOM. But one question I have is - With AA’s tie up with B6 in BOS and then Indigo on the India side why is BOS not being considered for a DEL or BOM service? There’s a large local market, big tech and health/medical community, plus feed to make this work. AA already flys 777’s to BOS from LHR & MIA so BOS is set up to support the service infrastructure wise. This would also allow passengers currently flying to India via LHR on BA/AA to go non-stop and give BOS-LHR more O&D focus.
 
voxkel
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:14 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
dcajet wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

No, JFK-GIG was reinstated as a seasonal operation for the Northern Hemisphere winter. Believe it operates from December to March. It is a route that has a long history with AA. It was first launched in the 1990s, with a 767-200ER, returned as a year-round route a few years ago, initially with a 763 and then up gauged to the 772 before it was cut and re-instated as a seasonal flight.


Slightly off topic, but in the days before GRU and before every Brazilian wanted to visit the Mouse, New York was the premier destination from Brazil, with VARIG, Pan Am and Aerolineas Argentinas all competing to/from GIG. In the case of VARIG it was its most prestigious flight, RG800/1, IIRC.


Very true. GIG was, at one time, in the 1970s and 1980s, the larger market from New York to Brazil, over Sao Paulo.


Same is true with EZE. Before the mid-1980s when SP exploded, RJ and BA were by far the most important cities and commerce hubs in SA. Lots of US/Europe multinationals had their SA headquarters in either RJ or BA. Nowadays most banks/HQs have consolidated in SP.

Its a very similar comparison to Montreal (historical commerce hub) versus Toronto (exploded in the 70s and 80s becoming the de-jure commerce hub of Canada).
 
voxkel
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:17 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
I definitely understand why ORD or JFK would likely be the choice for AA to BOM. But one question I have is - With AA’s tie up with B6 in BOS and then Indigo on the India side why is BOS not being considered for a DEL or BOM service? There’s a large local market, big tech and health/medical community, plus feed to make this work. AA already flys 777’s to BOS from LHR & MIA so BOS is set up to support the service infrastructure wise. This would also allow passengers currently flying to India via LHR on BA/AA to go non-stop and give BOS-LHR more O&D focus.


This is not a bad idea, considering AA is starting the BLR flight ex SEA instead of ORD/JFK. I do think India-Boston is very underserved and it is the shortest route between India-US. I think a 788 can make BOS-DEL/BOM.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5204
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:35 pm

voxkel wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Slightly off topic, but in the days before GRU and before every Brazilian wanted to visit the Mouse, New York was the premier destination from Brazil, with VARIG, Pan Am and Aerolineas Argentinas all competing to/from GIG. In the case of VARIG it was its most prestigious flight, RG800/1, IIRC.


Very true. GIG was, at one time, in the 1970s and 1980s, the larger market from New York to Brazil, over Sao Paulo.


Same is true with EZE. Before the mid-1980s when SP exploded, RJ and BA were by far the most important cities and commerce hubs in SA. Lots of US/Europe multinationals had their SA headquarters in either RJ or BA. Nowadays most banks/HQs have consolidated in SP.

Its a very similar comparison to Montreal (historical commerce hub) versus Toronto (exploded in the 70s and 80s becoming the de-jure commerce hub of Canada).


Well, with the state of Sao Paulo having a GDP equal to that of the whole of Argentina, and with Rio de Janeiro spiraling down into violence, it is clear to see why more and more corporations chose Sao Paulo for their regional HQs. Argentina's chronic economic instability doesn't do the country any favors either. The one thing going for Argentina is the country's levels of urban safety compared to Brazil.

Unbelievable that for so many decades SP did not have an airport of the caliber of GRU. I wonder how many GDP points SP grew by with the opening of GRU... Truly, a game changer.

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